c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 25, 2024 22:48:21 GMT
It’s a bit like private school where you either joined the corps or did community service stuff. (Well, you had to do the army stuff for two years first* then could opt out) * or was it three years? Might have been three… My school was more conservative. You had to do it for the whole time, then we had a curate who became interested in water divining and a few were let to join the water platoon. Plus we had to go to an army training camp, in my case in Folkestone after I had otherwise left school. Yeah, I think our school was trying to be a bit progressive. (Not nearly progressive enough for me, must be said). The army stuff was relatively serious though as a quarter from our school went into the forces. How long did you have to do the training camp for following school? |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 25, 2024 22:52:39 GMT
My school was more conservative. You had to do it for the whole time, then we had a curate who became interested in water divining and a few were let to join the water platoon. Plus we had to go to an army training camp, in my case in Folkestone after I had otherwise left school. Yeah, I think our school was trying to be a bit progressive. (Not nearly progressive enough for me, must be said). The army stuff was relatively serious though as a quarter from our school went into the forces. How long did you have to do the training camp for following school? |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 25, 2024 22:55:15 GMT
"The national service nonsense does give me the opportunity to tweet one of my favourite recent bits of polling when Ipsos actually ran the famous "Yes Minister" questions as a randomised experiment, and showed that it worked."
x.com/Samfr/status/1794484909689487486
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 25, 2024 22:58:13 GMT
"The Conservative press release announcing national service talks about “volunteering” for something that would be mandatory (see below). It is a curious use of the English language. Do you think there is a chance the policy was put together in a rush?"
x.com/Peston/status/1794484232565182721
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 25, 2024 23:04:27 GMT
Yeah, I think our school was trying to be a bit progressive. (Not nearly progressive enough for me, must be said). The army stuff was relatively serious though as a quarter from our school went into the forces. How long did you have to do the training camp for following school? I dunno, it had trouble making me do stuff before I left, so I’m maybe not the right person to ask |
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Post by EmCat on May 25, 2024 23:14:53 GMT
"The Conservative press release announcing national service talks about “volunteering” for something that would be mandatory (see below). It is a curious use of the English language. Do you think there is a chance the policy was put together in a rush?"
x.com/Peston/status/1794484232565182721 I'm wondering whether it is "Full-time Armed Forces" (which presumably would mean getting paid) or "Volunteer one weekend per month" (which would mean no pay) So, the uptake of the former will be those who haven't managed to get a full time job after leaving school (whether due to lack of vacancies locally, or qualifications), while the uptake of the latter will be very grudging from those newly employed, as they relish having disposable income to spend on their weekend leisure time. |
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Post by mercian on May 25, 2024 23:15:57 GMT
As I put on the prior thread, I think the Conservatives will get 27-28% of the vote. I've gone for a similar figure: 28.5%. But my seats prediction for the Tories of 131 is lower than yours by 27. To answer LL's point, I think we are likely to see some movement in the next week or so, if it is really going to happen. 2017 is not the only time when the polls have moved during the campaign. One rather forgotten example was 1997, when the polling average moved from Lab 52.5%, Con 28.5% in late Feb/early March to a final position of Lab 48%, Con 30% in the final eve-of-election polls. So a 6-point net movement. I think we are quite likely to see a similar movement in the next 5 weeks, but more Con gain than Lab losses. The 2019 election saw little change in the Tories' polling lead, because both Con & Lab rose by similar amounts. The first polls of the 2019 campaign (and the subsequent movements were): Con 38% ( went up by 7) Lab 28% (went up by 5) LD 15.5% (went down by 4) BXP 10% (went down by 8) And the actual vote was Lab 43.2% Con 30.7% I think. Therefore polls overestimated Labour. Methodology has changed since then of course so polls may be more accurate. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2024 23:40:21 GMT
This strikes me as a pretend policy for pensioners rather than an actual policy for young people I'm 72 and I decided National Service was the kind of thing people of my dad's age thought was a good idea, mainly to get them to get their hair cut (even my dad thought it was nonsense and he'd be 135 now). Yes there will be some pensioners who like the idea So, your dad was 63 when you were born? Blimey. I'm 65, and my maternal grandfather was born in 1880 or 1881, (not completely sure, I only know he was 67 when he died in mid-1948). My other grandfather was born in 1894. |
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Post by mercian on May 25, 2024 23:54:12 GMT
I'm sorry to report that my many pearls of wisdom on the previous thread written before I saw that there was a new one will be washed away from human ken like writing in the sand when the tide comes in. I pity you all.
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I couldn't get my hat on when I saw that the Tories are promising to bring back National Service. I avoided it by a few years (I was 9 in 1960) which makes me think that not many living voters remember it.
What with Oliver Dowden suggesting that we stock up for emergencies and now this. Are they preparing us for war with Russia?
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@isa
My paternal grandfather was born in 1870. Can anyone beat that?
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 25, 2024 23:56:07 GMT
Has Starmer indicated yet, that Labour will introduce a much better form of National Service than the Conservatives?
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Post by graham on May 25, 2024 23:57:44 GMT
graham "Labour will have leapfrogged the LDs in scores of seats - indeed jumped from third to first place. Boundary changes further complicate the picture." Maybe but given that the only vote s between general elections have been local elections where the Lib dems have routinely done very well you have nothing other than wishful thinking to substantiate this assumption. Not at all. To repeat what I have related many months ago - I vividly recall the Feb 1974 election when in my first year at University. I was reliably informed by a very left wing fellow student that the Liberals were about to make very significant gains in his home city of Liverpool . He based his forecast on the very strong advances made by the Liberals there at the May 1973 Local Elections. Despite the Liberal surge under Thorpe at that GE, the Liberals failed to win a single seat in Liverpool - indeed nowhere did they come close and in many cases they remained in third place. It highlighted how Local Elections have greatly flattered the Liberals /LDs - and the Greens more recently - in that people vote on a very different basis and in much greater numbers at a GE. |
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Post by guymonde on May 26, 2024 0:47:16 GMT
Yeah, I think our school was trying to be a bit progressive. (Not nearly progressive enough for me, must be said). The army stuff was relatively serious though as a quarter from our school went into the forces. How long did you have to do the training camp for following school? Not sure there was any sanction, but we were very conformist. Young gentlemen should do what older gentlemen told them. Oh, and I think it was a week. There was something about we would be the first to conscripted because we were qualified soldiers and finishing the training had some concession. Nearest we came to action was one of my fellow pupils claimed he had killed a sheep by shooting it point blank in the eye with a blank cartridge. I imagine he made this up to show how tough he was. |
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Post by guymonde on May 26, 2024 0:57:37 GMT
I'm 72 and I decided National Service was the kind of thing people of my dad's age thought was a good idea, mainly to get them to get their hair cut (even my dad thought it was nonsense and he'd be 135 now). Yes there will be some pensioners who like the idea So, your dad was 63 when you were born? Blimey. I'm 65, and my maternal grandfather was born in 1880 or 1881, (not completely sure, I only know he was 67 when he died in mid-1948). My other grandfather was born in 1894. Maths failure. I should have said 115 |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on May 26, 2024 5:22:22 GMT
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steve
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Post by steve on May 26, 2024 5:32:13 GMT
"I'm wondering whether it is "Full-time Armed Forces" (which presumably would mean getting paid) or "Volunteer one weekend per month" (which would mean no pay) "
I've met a few 18 year olds who'd give up a weekend or two to learn how to shoot more accurately,I'm not entirely sure it would be desirable!
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Post by crossbat11 on May 26, 2024 5:49:19 GMT
How could a school make you do anything, after you had left it? Not sure there was any sanction, but we were very conformist. Young gentlemen should do what older gentlemen told them. Oh, and I think it was a week. There was something about we would be the first to conscripted because we were qualified soldiers and finishing the training had some concession. Nearest we came to action was one of my fellow pupils claimed he had killed a sheep by shooting it point blank in the eye with a blank cartridge. I imagine he made this up to show how tough he was. Your recollections bring back mildly amusing memories of my experiences when at public school in the late 60s and 70s. We had to do some military type training in something called the Combined Cadet Force (CCF). I think we had choices between the three services; Army, Navy and RAF. Most of us opted for the Army, although activities in all three didn't extend much behind dressing up in the appropriate service uniforms, learning square-bashing drills and, very occasionally, spending time at military bases with regulars. None of us, sadly, got to invade anywhere, carry out bombing raids or join maritime battles. The visits to military bases and spending time with regular soldiers was invariably fun though. Unbelievably, we got to fire live rounds on shooting ranges and were put through our paces on assault courses. Essentially, as 16 year-old ingenues from private school, we were there as subjects for ridicule and humiliation from the squaddies, nominally there to supervise us. Locked in tanks, taken the piss out of on various assault course challenges (one soldier tossed in an explosive blank of some sort into a giant pipe I was crawling through once) and we were the regular victims of various practical jokes. The whole thing was a ridiculous joke really. The only things I learned were derived from chatting to some of the lower ranked soldiers, usually while sharing a crafty fag with them during breaks in the ritual humiliations. To a man (I didn't meet any women) they couldn't stand any of the top brass and didn't much enjoy any of the work that they did. It was a reasonably well paid and secure job and that was about it. Many seemed keen to get out of it as soon as they could. |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 26, 2024 5:54:52 GMT
The libertarian party in the U.S. is a classical small state liberal party it's economically conservative while generally socially liberal for example it wants to remove income taxes but at the same time it wants to remove the death penalty and supports same sex marriage. It's not a lot like the social democrat model of the lib dems but shares some similarities with the Liberal Party which still exists in the U.K.. It's the U.S. third largest political party and routinely picks up 3-5% at presidential elections. It's likely to endorse independent candidate Robert Kennedy for the presidential election. What it isn't is a cult that wants a dictatorship run by a lunatic. The maga cult decided to invade the Libertarian national convention as trump had been invited to speak, occupying the seats at the front of the auditorium where he was due to speak , seats reserved for delegates , the ensuing chaos and booing of the rapist is a joy to see. youtu.be/c8gkY1k-Fz0?si=BuxJ8L71EIh0znddyoutu.be/ZHCeRP2OETM?si=WxrkT8anIceEHJKC |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on May 26, 2024 5:59:46 GMT
Turns out the projected cost of the conscription idea is £2.5b (in reality it would be a lot more) will be paid for by closing the levelling up fund
Also worth remembering the cost of the pay rise for junior doctors that ministers insist is “simply unaffordable” - £2bn a year...
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steve
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Post by steve on May 26, 2024 6:13:02 GMT
grahamThanks for that trip down memory lane to your student days in Liverpool 50 years ago. I'm sure it's highly relevant to the situation in 2024
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Post by crossbat11 on May 26, 2024 6:24:55 GMT
Very early in the campaign, but it's interesting to see the contrasting styles of the two main protagonists, Sunak and Starmer.
I think they are both, by nature, stiff and awkward public performers. Self-conscious and devoid of easy repartee.
The key difference seems to be that one of them, Starmer, seems aware of these failings and is trying to operate within the natural parameters of his personality whereas the other, Sunak, is forcing himself to be the extrovert and clubbable man he clearly isn't. This is only aggravating his poor public appearances to the point of ridicule and embarrassment.
I suspect his advisers are telling him to appear to be the man you would prefer to have a pint with. This is poor advice and they need to allow him to be what he is. A vaguely decent and mildly dull technocrat.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 26, 2024 6:37:09 GMT
Very early in the campaign, but it's interesting to see the contrasting styles of the two main protagonists, Sunak and Starmer. I think they are both, by nature, stiff and awkward public performers. Self-conscious and devoid of easy repartee. The key difference seems to be that one of them, Starmer, seems aware of these failings and is trying to operate within the natural parameters of his personality whereas the other, Sunak, is forcing himself to be the extrovert and clubbable man he clearly isn't. This is only aggravating his poor public appearances to the point of ridicule and embarrassment. I suspect his advisers are telling him to appear to be the man you would prefer to have a pint with. This is poor advice and they need to allow him to be what he is. A vaguely decent and mildly dull technocrat. Yes Starmer tried the pub thing and it didn’t go well… |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 26, 2024 6:43:54 GMT
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steve
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Post by steve on May 26, 2024 6:49:46 GMT
Photo opportunities just don't seem to work for Sunakered we've already had examples a plenty in the first three days, who at CHQ thought rebuilding a red wall would be a good look? . There's nothing new about this Here's a military example Starmer sort of blends in with the officers while Sunakered 😂 Attachment Deleted |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 26, 2024 6:56:10 GMT
Photo opportunities just don't seem to work for Sunakered we've already had examples a plenty in the first three days, who at CHQ thought rebuilding a red wall would be a good look? . There's nothing new about this Here's a military example Starmer sort of blends in with the officers while Sunakered 😂 View AttachmentView Attachment |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 26, 2024 7:09:35 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-wIs that Thatcher just before the Tories booted her out?
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steve
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Post by steve on May 26, 2024 7:15:28 GMT
Of course some political leaders don't need to do dress up soldier. Here's our old leader Paddy Ashdown , royal marines and Special Boat Service. Aka the real deal.  |
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Post by JohnC on May 26, 2024 7:16:32 GMT
I'm sorry to report that my many pearls of wisdom on the previous thread written before I saw that there was a new one will be washed away from human ken like writing in the sand when the tide comes in. I pity you all. ------------- I couldn't get my hat on when I saw that the Tories are promising to bring back National Service. I avoided it by a few years (I was 9 in 1960) which makes me think that not many living voters remember it. What with Oliver Dowden suggesting that we stock up for emergencies and now this. Are they preparing us for war with Russia? ------------------ @isa My paternal grandfather was born in 1870. Can anyone beat that? My paternal grandfather was born on 28 February 1867. He died about 10 weeks after I was born so I never knew him. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on May 26, 2024 7:25:42 GMT
Okay who said this 4 months ago?
"The British military has a proud tradition of being a voluntary force. There's no plans to change that"
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Dave
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Post by Dave on May 26, 2024 7:29:11 GMT
I wonder if they’ve done some focus group type stuff and they’ve asked the elderly, their core vote what measures they’d like to see introduced and they’ve said national service. In desperation the Tories have thought “well we might as well - nothing else is working”.
We’ll know if that’s right if tomorrow’s announcement is that they’ll bring back the birch.
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steve
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Post by steve on May 26, 2024 7:29:29 GMT
JohnCMy paternal grandfather died long before I was born succumbing to injuries he suffered in world war one. My maternal grandfather was born somewhere at some time probably in the 1890's. Being an undocumented child immigrant makes family history complex. He died when I was about six as far as I recall he was quite a charming and funny man with a nice line in magic tricks.
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