pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Jun 15, 2024 19:34:41 GMT
The following is the outgoing cabinet, less peers (Cameron, True) and those who are standing down as MPs at the election (Gove, Jack, Heaton-Harris. if I have accidentally included any others, let me know). So the question is how many will lose their seats? Could we get a new record for the number of defeated cabinet ministers? I'll give my guess later on when I've done some digging. Cabinet ministers Rishi Sunak - MP for Richmond (Yorks) Prime Minister Oliver Dowden - MP for Hertsmere Deputy Prime Minister Jeremy Hunt - MP for South West Surrey Chancellor of the Exchequer James Cleverly - MP for Braintree Secretary of State for the Home Department Grant Shapps - MP for Welwyn Hatfield Secretary of State for Defence Ministry of Defence Alex Chalk - MP for Cheltenham Secretary of State for Justice Michelle Donelan - MP for Chippenham Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology Victoria Atkins - MP for Louth and Horncastle Secretary of State for Health and Social Care Steve Barclay - MP for North East Cambridgeshire Penny Mordaunt - MP for Portsmouth North Leader of the House of Commons Kemi Badenoch - MP for Saffron Walden Secretary of State for Business and Trade Claire Coutinho - MP for East Surrey Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero Mel Stride - MP for Central Devon Secretary of State for Work and Pensions Gillian Keegan - MP for Chichester Secretary of State for Education Mark Harper - MP for Forest of Dean Secretary of State for Transport Lucy Frazer - MP for South East Cambridgeshire Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport Richard Holden - MP for North West Durham Minister without Portfolio David Davies - MP for Monmouth Secretary of State for Wales Cabinet ministers only for the moment. I have used YouGov's MRP, which seems the best. Looks like Hunt, Shapps, Chalk, Donavan, Harper and Davies are in serious trouble (6). Mordaunt, Stride and Holden (in his new seat) are potentially in danger, which would make 9. The others probably safe, but who knows for sure? The post war record is 7 in 1997. |
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Post by graham on Jun 15, 2024 19:35:06 GMT
I am afraid - having looked at some of the predictions - I cannot take this MRP survey very seriously at all. The idea that Labour will win Bexhill & Battle and that Torbay is a three-way marginal frankly sounds a load of tosh.Nor do I expect Labour to win Waveney Valley where Labour is at 30.1% Tories 25.8% Greens 14.3% Reform have 22.7%. This seat is a top Green target!
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jun 15, 2024 19:35:26 GMT
Opinium Lab 40% (-2) Con 23% (-1) LD 12% (+2) Ref 14% (+2) Green 7% ( 0) My prediction of 39/22/12/15 wasn't too bad ! Labour leads with Opinium over 6 weeks since May are 16%, 18%, 14%, 20%, 18% and now 17%, which is around the average Opinium lead Without adjustment for the don't knows that Opinium use it's Lab 44% Con 21% Reform 12% LD 12% Green 8% |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,700
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jun 15, 2024 19:37:16 GMT
Bit more on the Telegraph Savanta poll, on who is more likely to raise taxes, whether we should remain a member of the ECHR, whether people feel positively or negatively about various Tory policies etc.
“As well as testing voting intention, Savanta polled the 2,045 people on other questions, including which of the two main parties they thought would be most likely to raise a series of taxes, including capital gains tax, corporation tax and inheritance tax.
In a sign that Conservative attacks may finally be cutting through, Labour was seen as the most likely party to raise all of the taxes listed, with at least 50 per cent of UK adults saying that they are more likely than the Conservatives to raise corporation tax (55 per cent versus 28 per cent), inheritance tax (54 per cent vs 27 per cent), capital gains tax (53 per cent vs 30 per cent), income tax (51 per cent vs 36 per cent) and national insurance (50 per cent vs 32 per cent).
While Conservative and Reform voters were mostly of the opinion that Labour would increase all types of tax, around half of current Labour voters admit that their party is the most likely to raise corporation tax, capital gains tax and inheritance tax.
Polled on whether a series of key Tory manifesto policies would make them feel more positively or negatively towards the party, all the pledges had a net positive impact.
For example, a promise to abolish stamp duty for first-time buyers on homes worth up to £425,000 was five times more likely to make the public feel more positively (50 per cent) towards the Tories than more negatively (10 per cent).
However, in every case when asked whether they trusted the Tories to deliver on the policies, a majority of voters did not trust them to do so.
Mr Hopkins said: “Herein lies the fundamental problem for the Conservative Party’s election campaign. While it’s priced in that Labour will raise some taxes, and the Conservative manifesto has some well-liked ideas, the public no longer trusts the Conservatives to deliver on anything they say, including some reasonably popular manifesto policies.”
With the Tory manifesto declining to commit to withdrawing from the European Convention on Human Rights, six in ten (57 per cent) said that the UK should remain a member of the ECHR, compared to just over a quarter (28 per cent) that said the UK should leave.
Half (49 per cent) of people believed a claim from the Energy Secretary Claire Coutinho that removing fossil fuels from UK electricity by 2030 – something promised by Labour – could lead to blackouts, with 37 per cent saying the assessment was wrong.”
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,700
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jun 15, 2024 19:46:06 GMT
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Post by crossbat11 on Jun 15, 2024 19:49:36 GMT
Opinium Lab 40% (-2) Con 23% (-1) LD 12% (+2) Ref 14% (+2) Green 7% ( 0) My prediction of 39/22/12/15 wasn't too bad ! Labour leads with Opinium over 6 weeks since May are 16%, 18%, 14%, 20%, 18% and now 17%, which is around the average Opinium lead Without adjustment for the don't knows that Opinium use it's Lab 44% Con 21% Reform 12% LD 12% Green 8% I wonder whether this election, which seems to me to be extraordinary in so many ways, will challenge the Opinium methodology more than other pollsters who don't reallocate the "don't knows" back to how they voted in 2019. The reason I pose this question is that it seems to me that the incumbents are heading towards such historic levels of unpopularity and rejection that it may be dangerous to assume anything very much about their former voters voting behaviour in this election. I wonder, if we are heading towards a low turnout, which I suspect we might well be, whether a lot of the DK respondents in these polls will in reality end up just not voting at all. |
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Post by James E on Jun 15, 2024 19:52:08 GMT
JamesE Is your prediction of the polls converging as the election approaches proving right? It seems to me it is.... I don't recall predicting that the polls would converge, although it is normal to get somewhat fewer 'Don't Knows' close to an election. If and when that happens, the size of the adjustment made by pollsters such as Opinium becomes smaller. But as per the figures Neil has provided, this one is still a 6-point reduction to the 44/21 poll which the unadjusted figures would show. And YouGov's most recent 'adjusted' figures reduce the size of Labour's lead over the Tories by 7 points. There are other factors now coming into play, such as pollsters now using actual candidate lists as a prompt. This seems to provide some Lab to LD movement, so would have the effect of reducing Labour's lead if it were not for RefUK eating into the Tories' vote share. And we may also just see pollsters converging by making other methodological changes, but that's a separate issue to the re-allocation of Don't Knows. What I did predict (as did most people) was that the polls would narrow, with a normal-sized Government recovery turning opposition lead of 18-20 points into more like 12-14. That clearly hasn't happened. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jun 15, 2024 19:53:53 GMT
The Survation MRP survey has the following findings for Didcot & Wantage - Lab 29.5% LD 28.4% Con 27.8% I wonder how tactical voting will work out there! As a resolutely ABT denizen of said constituency I will almost certainly be voting LD though the tactical voting sites are withholding a recommendation until next week. Lab have very little presence here but the LDs are everywhere, dominating the district council, the poster war (seen only LD and Green posters hereabouts) and ground troops especially as the neighbouring constituency is Layla Moran's. We have a local county and district ward by-election here next week in our ward ( Sutton Courtenay) as the sitting LD has retired. Almost certain to remain LD though I'll probably vote for the Green candidate in the by-election. LD or Lab (in the unlikely event it seems the best ABT move) at the GE though of course. We've received a ton of LD leaflets, some tory ones in disguise but no Lab correspondence whatsoever. |
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Post by graham on Jun 15, 2024 19:56:51 GMT
The MRP survet has Labour winning Bristol Central - polling 55.8% with he Greens on 23.7%. The result does not surprise me though the margin appears a bit high.
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Post by Old Southendian on Jun 15, 2024 19:57:33 GMT
As a resolutely ABT denizen of said constituency I will almost certainly be voting LD though the tactical voting sites are withholding a recommendation until next week. Lab have very little presence here but the LDs are everywhere, dominating the district council, the poster war (seen only LD and Green posters hereabouts) and ground troops especially as the neighbouring constituency is Layla Moran's. We have a local county and district ward by-election here next week in our ward ( Sutton Courtenay) as the sitting LD has retired. Almost certain to remain LD though I'll probably vote for the Green candidate in the by-election. LD or Lab (in the unlikely event it seems the best ABT move) at the GE though of course.
Surely we have to wonder who Orwell would vote for if he could rise from his grave?
EDIT: No prizes for guessing Asquith's choice.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jun 15, 2024 20:04:45 GMT
As a resolutely ABT denizen of said constituency I will almost certainly be voting LD though the tactical voting sites are withholding a recommendation until next week. Lab have very little presence here but the LDs are everywhere, dominating the district council, the poster war (seen only LD and Green posters hereabouts) and ground troops especially as the neighbouring constituency is Layla Moran's. We have a local county and district ward by-election here next week in our ward ( Sutton Courtenay) as the sitting LD has retired. Almost certain to remain LD though I'll probably vote for the Green candidate in the by-election. LD or Lab (in the unlikely event it seems the best ABT move) at the GE though of course.
Surely we have to wonder who Orwell would vote for if he could rise from his grave?
EDIT: No prizes for guessing Asquith's choice.
David Astor is there too. Next to Eric. |
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Post by graham on Jun 15, 2024 20:07:10 GMT
The Survation MRP survey has the following findings for Didcot & Wantage - Lab 29.5% LD 28.4% Con 27.8% I wonder how tactical voting will work out there! As a resolutely ABT denizen of said constituency I will almost certainly be voting LD though the tactical voting sites are withholding a recommendation until next week. Lab have very little presence here but the LDs are everywhere, dominating the district council, the poster war (seen only LD and Green posters hereabouts) and ground troops especially as the neighbouring constituency is Layla Moran's. We have a local county and district ward by-election here next week in our ward ( Sutton Courtenay) as the sitting LD has retired. Almost certain to remain LD though I'll probably vote for the Green candidate in the by-election. LD or Lab (in the unlikely event it seems the best ABT move) at the GE though of course. We've received a ton of LD leaflets, some tory ones in disguise but no Lab correspondence whatsoever. In my experience, the Tactical Voting sites are best avoided in that they often misdirect and/or confuse voters. The people running them do not appear particularly sophisticated in psephological terms and place far too much emphasis on the most recent GE whilst ignoring earlier results. I remain sceptical of MRP surveys - though Labour will now be using this data to deter tactical voting by their supporters. Sutton Courtney is where HH Asquith lived his final years. I doubt that anyone now living there has a memory of him though - he died in February 1928.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jun 15, 2024 20:12:37 GMT
I am afraid - having looked at some of the predictions - I cannot take this MRP survey very seriously at all. The idea that Labour will win Bexhill & Battle and that Torbay is a three-way marginal frankly sounds a load of tosh. Merriman retired so no incumbency bonus for con in Bexhill. The locals are restive at having a chicken run candidate parachuted in by central office. This is a coastal town very upset by sewers dumping on the beach in summer, but the candidate refused to vote for measures to prevent that. The last incumbent, Merrimman, was all for turning a disused prison here into a refugee camp instead of it being redeveloped as housing. No one has cancelled that, so presumably the new chap has to somehow defend it. Two big fails in any cicumstance. This is a rural constituencey, some of the local farmers are going to be in revolt though doesnt amount to a huge proportion. The local pensioners seem to rather fancy reform, and their candidates view that Hitler had some good points. As a largely immigrant free area, the locals are also dead against immigration, which only Farage is seriously seeking to end. Labour had in recent years moved into a very poor second place supplanting the libs. I'd expect them to be a clear second even if they do not win, and in future years the conservative hold here is likely to decline. At present the lab vote probably suffers from no one thinking they had the slightest chance, but the possibility of coming close may galvanise voters. The biggest difficulty might be a total of ten candidates which may split the anti con vote. Three independents, some success for them on the council. |
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Post by peterbell on Jun 15, 2024 20:14:20 GMT
Labour leads with Opinium over 6 weeks since May are 16%, 18%, 14%, 20%, 18% and now 17%, which is around the average Opinium lead Without adjustment for the don't knows that Opinium use it's Lab 44% Con 21% Reform 12% LD 12% Green 8% I wonder whether this election, which seems to me to be extraordinary in so many ways, will challenge the Opinium methodology more than other pollsters who don't reallocate the "don't knows" back to how they voted in 2019. The reason I pose this question is that it seems to me that the incumbents are heading towards such historic levels of unpopularity and rejection that it may be dangerous to assume anything very much about their former voters voting behaviour in this election. I wonder, if we are heading towards a low turnout, which I suspect we might well be, whether a lot of the DK respondents in these polls will in reality end up just not voting at all. IMO you are absolutely correct. Many voters are totally fed up with politicians of all parties, particularly Con & Lab. In addition the chaos of the last 4.5 years has turned the vast majority against Con so when they are saying "don't know" it really means ABT but they haven't yet decided who the A is, it could be Lab, LD or Green depending what they learn about each of the three in the next couple of weeks or even less if they have a postal vote. I know that my three mates are in this position. Definitely will not vote Con although all 3 have voted Con in the past, but not quite sure which of the others gets their vote. However, worth noting that although in 3 different constituencies, all 3 are solid Lab. We Geordies have sense. |
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Post by shevii on Jun 15, 2024 20:14:44 GMT
Wiki has the percentages for that Survation MRP as:
Lab 40
Con 24
Ref 12
LD 11
Green 6
SNP 4
The dates are 31st May to 12th June so a lot of those figures will be out of date anyway.
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Post by alberto on Jun 15, 2024 20:17:18 GMT
I feel your pain on the low letter boxes and mantraps comrades. I got given a tool that was pretty useful. Sort of like a table tennis bat size but squared off and with a slot to post the leaflets through. It made getting the leaflets through those stiff bristle ones a lot easier but you had something else to carry, and it was harder to sort leaflets on the move. Maybe a holster of some kind would overcome that. I think you're referring to a Postie Mate TM. The man who makes/sell it gives a gory picture of someone who had their finger attacked by a dog. I used it a few times but either some of the post slots were the wrong size or the leaflets were the wrong size so it became bin fodder. I agree about toe level, but also ones that open vertically - always top hinged with a fierce spring. That's probably it, or something very similar. |
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Post by shevii on Jun 15, 2024 20:22:14 GMT
I've moaned a lot about the Guardian's political coverage during the Corbyn years but I have to say I think they have been pretty lukewarm to the current Labour offering as well when you'd think this would be the agenda that would suit their centrist views- maybe they're simply considering themselves balanced and independent and asking the tough questions. Tend to agree with the theme of that article and John Curtice said much the same thing last week but it seems a bit odd for them to lead with that theme. |
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Post by Mark on Jun 15, 2024 20:23:29 GMT
*** New polling thread alert ***
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Post by James E on Jun 15, 2024 20:36:44 GMT
Wiki has the percentages for that Survation MRP as: Lab 40 Con 24 Ref 12 LD 11 Green 6 SNP 4 The dates are 31st May to 12th June so a lot of those figures will be out of date anyway. That would make sense as Survation's last MRP had vote shares of Lab 43, Con 24, and Labour winning 487 seats. Compared to that, Labour now take 31 fewer seats on a swing 1.5% lower. Some people might be surprised to see these figures showing Labour taking so many seats on a lead of 'only' 16 points. For comparison to this, More In Common showed Labour taking 382 seats on a 15-point lead (43/28). Part of the reason is that the lower Tory VI with Survation makes them even more vulnerable to tactical voting. But also, More In Common show the lowest 'seats gained per 1% swing' of any MRP at just under 14. YouGov's MRPs show around 14-15, relatively low due in part to their 'unwinding' adjustment. Those who don't make such adjustments show higher rates of Labour gains. In Survation's case, 18-19 'seats per 1% swing' in this MRP. My view is that the actual result will fall between these two, but probably closer to Survation than to MIC or YouGov. One further detail on Survation's latest MRP: looking at their map, it would be possible to travel the entire length of Britain - from either Lands End or the White Cliffs of Dover to the North coast of Scotland without passing through a single Conservative-held constituency (though you would need to take a rather convoluted route). www.survation.com/mrp-update-first-mrp-since-farages-return/ |
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Post by leftieliberal on Jun 15, 2024 22:20:29 GMT
archive.ph/ZZivB will give you access to the article. Broadly, I think the projection captures the effect of the fall in Tory VI. The one region where I think it is wrong is Scotland, because they are predicting a 4% VI for the SNP in a GB poll exactly the same as in 2019, which does not fit well with what other pollsters like YouGov are telling us in their Scotland-only polls. The latest YouGov Scotland-only poll (17th May) put the SNP at 29%, which would equate to 2.5% GB (i.e. about an equal number of 2 and 3% values in GB polls). Other pollsters are predicting slightly higher SNP VI; Survation's latest Scotland-only poll (23-27th May) put the SNP at 32% (equivalent to 2.8% in GB polls, so mainly 3%). Bearing in mind the UKPRv2 article from May which discussed the effects of their methodology change on Scottish seat predictions and which also previously predicted a number of SNP seats in the forties, it may be that Survation's methodology is similar to the old UKPR methodology. We will only know which approach was right on July 5th, but I think we must take Survation's prediction with a pinch of salt.
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Post by bardin1 on Jun 15, 2024 22:54:22 GMT
archive.ph/ZZivB will give you access to the article. Broadly, I think the projection captures the effect of the fall in Tory VI. The one region where I think it is wrong is Scotland, because they are predicting a 4% VI for the SNP in a GB poll exactly the same as in 2019, which does not fit well with what other pollsters like YouGov are telling us in their Scotland-only polls. The latest YouGov Scotland-only poll (17th May) put the SNP at 29%, which would equate to 2.5% GB (i.e. about an equal number of 2 and 3% values in GB polls). Other pollsters are predicting slightly higher SNP VI; Survation's latest Scotland-only poll (23-27th May) put the SNP at 32% (equivalent to 2.8% in GB polls, so mainly 3%). Bearing in mind the UKPRv2 article from May which discussed the effects of their methodology change on Scottish seat predictions and which also previously predicted a number of SNP seats in the forties, it may be that Survation's methodology is similar to the old UKPR methodology. We will only know which approach was right on July 5th, but I think we must take Survation's prediction with a pinch of salt. The last two Scottish polls (before today's) Norstat) put the SNP on 34 and 36, so I would be somewhere between you and this Survation one., around 34-36. There's still a bit to play for in Scotland and many of the seats could be close. I think the Conservative held seats in the South of Scotland, for example, will be harder to take for the SNP as the largely farming / close to England demographic there is more resiliently conservative IMO |
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Post by leftieliberal on Jun 15, 2024 23:22:22 GMT
archive.ph/ZZivB will give you access to the article. Broadly, I think the projection captures the effect of the fall in Tory VI. The one region where I think it is wrong is Scotland, because they are predicting a 4% VI for the SNP in a GB poll exactly the same as in 2019, which does not fit well with what other pollsters like YouGov are telling us in their Scotland-only polls. The latest YouGov Scotland-only poll (17th May) put the SNP at 29%, which would equate to 2.5% GB (i.e. about an equal number of 2 and 3% values in GB polls). Other pollsters are predicting slightly higher SNP VI; Survation's latest Scotland-only poll (23-27th May) put the SNP at 32% (equivalent to 2.8% in GB polls, so mainly 3%). Bearing in mind the UKPRv2 article from May which discussed the effects of their methodology change on Scottish seat predictions and which also previously predicted a number of SNP seats in the forties, it may be that Survation's methodology is similar to the old UKPR methodology. We will only know which approach was right on July 5th, but I think we must take Survation's prediction with a pinch of salt. , so I would be somewhere between you and this Survation one., around 34-36. There's still a bit to play for in Scotland and many of the seats could be close. I think the Conservative held seats in the South of Scotland, for example, will be harder to take for the SNP as the largely farming / close to England demographic there is more resiliently conservative IMO The problem is separating out real trends from house effects. In the case of that 36% from Ipsos, their previous poll was 25-31st January at 39%, again at the top end of pollsters polling around that time. This is why for my own posts on polling archive, I separated out each pollster's results and display them as separate graphs. As long as a pollster doesn't change methodology, polls taken on different dates should be comparable with each other. Just averaging the six full Scottish polls since the election was called gives 32.3% which is likely to be closer to the truth than any single poll; there is always the danger of believing a poll because it looks good for you and rejecting one that looks bad. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2024 23:29:44 GMT
First new poll of the evening, not sure how this format will come out.... Savanta UK @savanta_UK 🚨NEW Westminster Voting Intention for Sunday @telegraph 📈25pt Labour lead 📉Lowest Con vote share since May 2019 🌹Lab 46 (+2) 🌳Con 21 (-4) ➡️Reform 13 (+3) 🔶LD 11 (+2) 🌍Green 5 (+1) 🎗️SNP 2 (-1) ⬜️Other 3 (-1) 2,045 UK adults, 12-14 June An increase in LAB VI! Phew! Quite a large sample and quite recent, too. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2024 23:38:25 GMT
Reminds me of the old joke about the vicar who thought his bike had been stolen. He decided to base the theme of his next sermon on The Ten Commandments, and when he got to "Thou shalt not steal", he would peer around the congregation for guilty faces. Unfortunately, when he got to "Thou shalt not commit adultery", he remembered where he had left his bike. |
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Post by jen on Jun 16, 2024 1:21:18 GMT
graham "Also managed to ignore the good stuff Blair did. Ho hum." "A bit like saying 'the Fuhrer built some really good Autobahns'. View Attachment Hitler improved housing, education, employment, a car for everyone, abolished hunting, improved training of doctors. Plus the roads of course. Redistributive tax policy favouring the poor. I think he ran up national debt a lot. All very reminiscent of demands nowadays. Oh, and i forgot boosting defence spending and getting tough with Russia? No he didn't. Total bullshit. Who told you that? Farage? It's all crap, but "a car for everyone"? Seriously? Madness... |
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Post by alhenry47 on Jun 16, 2024 1:35:29 GMT
My sister's top tip for leafleting safely. Fold it over a flat wooden kitchen spatlula then push it through the letterbox. Springs and dogs teeth sorted, no problem !
Forty plus years experience of campaigning, so she should know.
Albert.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jun 16, 2024 6:42:50 GMT
jenObviously Danny is talking cobblers, but I think "the car for everyone" bit comes from VW who advertised the beetle as "the people's car" , post war it became the largest number sold of any car using a single platform in the world. But given there were less than a million cars of any manufacture in pre war Germany it's clearly not the case then.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jun 16, 2024 6:56:56 GMT
Hitler improved housing, education, employment, a car for everyone, abolished hunting, improved training of doctors. Plus the roads of course. Redistributive tax policy favouring the poor. I think he ran up national debt a lot. All very reminiscent of demands nowadays. Oh, and i forgot boosting defence spending and getting tough with Russia? No he didn't. Total bullshit. Who told you that? Farage? It's all crap, but "a car for everyone"? Seriously? Madness... The article says that not only was there a plan for every german family to own a car, but special payment plans were created to help them do so. The war began before this could realy get going, but already massive plant was in the process of being built to manufacture volkswagen for the nation. I agree though that the current UK conservative party does not have a policy of creating a car for everyone, electrification is more a car no one can afford. Though evidently importance of transport is a parallel. The Nazis were keen to buld up Germany's industrial base, both to provide employment but also to prepare for war. Tick, current Uk government wants to expand the economy, tick wants to restore some of the defence cuts it made. Though I'd trust Hitler's determination to expand military capability a lot more than con or lab. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jun 16, 2024 7:07:09 GMT
jenObviously Danny is talking cobblers, but I think "the car for everyone" bit comes from VW who advertised the beetle as "the people's car" , post war it became the largest number sold of any car using a single platform in the world. But given there were less than a million cars of any manufacture in pre war Germany it's clearly not the case then. Agree, in reality a lot of Germans paid money in advance for a 'people's car' and not a single person under the scheme got a car |
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Post by xanadan on Jun 16, 2024 7:43:14 GMT
What a headline huh... team Guardian! |
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