Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 12, 2023 8:48:40 GMT
only IF the ECtHR rule that the Rwanda scheme would break Article 3 would CON HMG need to leave the ECHR and then it is almost certain that we'd 'copy+paste' the rest of the ECHR into a UKCHR, effectively giving ourselves a 'veto' to reinterpret Article 3 in UK courts with UK laws. That will require a vote in HoC and IMO I can't see how CON HMG can drag the whole process out until GE'24 - especially after the gong show this week. I very much doubt this week's incompetence was 'planned' but it will likely raise awareness even further and hence mount increasing pressure on CON HMG to get this issue resolved asap and hence IMO that needs to be before GE'24. On the contrary, I would think con need this whole matter to be unresolved at the time of the next election, so it can be a campaign issue to sort it. I think it very telling that the lords did not in the end oppose the government immigration bill. They made a fuss first time round highlighting every section they felt objectionable, but then let it all pass. That smacks of the opposition not wanting to pick a fight and be seen to be on the side of the immigrants. Lab definitely do not want this to be an election campaign issue, because there is no good solution. Refugees are guaranteed to keep coming. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 12, 2023 8:53:58 GMT
The real inflation rate experienced by someone is not the CPI average, but depends on what you personally spend your money on. There are big variations between segments, but we had huge rises in energy and food. Kinda what the poor buy. The rich did a lot better. Do they publish a stat for effective inflation rate vs family income? You tell me. I did some research and quoted some official figures. I'm not your gopher. Instead of making unsubstantiated claims why don't you try to find some real world stats to back them up yourself. Nor am I your gopher. I took it as accepted fact that different groups experience different inflation rates depending on how they spend their money, which in turn depends to what extent they have choice in that spending. The ONS recognise this in their general presentation of the inflation indices, and publish different rates for the major categories contributing to the total. The media seems to have recently started talking about 'underlying inflation' as yet another category. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 12, 2023 9:04:00 GMT
The pedantic bit is whether we actually need to leave* the ECHR or can just state that UK law takes supremacy (which will mean repeal (rewrite) of The Human Rights Act 1998 by writing our mostly 'copy+paste' version of ECHR just with a veto on the bits the 'do bad' immigration lawyers are using to maintain their gravy train of criminal gangs providing them with clients). I seem to remember the 1998 act was introduced exactly because citizens had no remedy under UK law to breeches of the convention. So people would take a case directly to the international court. The idea of the UK law was so that UK courts would hear the cases. Save the endless embarassment for the UK of judgements against it abroad which kept on happening (we might note, under a then conservative government as now) The UK law did not take away anyones right to go to the international court under the charter. It simply gives them a home option, which if decided on the same basis makes it pointless appealing to the other court. If you change the UK court to a different basis, then the option of an international appeal will continue, or indeed resume because it isnt the same test. In order to prevent that, the Uk has to withdraw from the charter. The UK law isnt relevant to whether or not the Uk is breaking the charter. The bonus for a Uk government before labour introduced this law is that it typically took years to get a decision from the international court. Certainly longer than the time to the next election.
Its very interesting that a conservative government objected to the charter last time, and once again it is conservatives who do not believe Uk citizens should have these rights.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 12, 2023 9:08:45 GMT
You tell me. I did some research and quoted some official figures. I'm not your gopher. Instead of making unsubstantiated claims why don't you try to find some real world stats to back them up yourself. I posted some links a while ago covering 'behavioural change' that shows that actual 'cost of living' inflation is lower than ONS measure of inflation. ONS don't update their basket of goods that frequently but consumers can and do respond to price changes much faster.// Someone who was renting but returns to parents home would probably see a significant rise in their net disposable income (ie effectively see -ve inflation). Thats true, but it doesnt mean they will be happy bunnies every day being forced to buy own brand bread and cornflakes instead of their preferred one. Or happy living with their parents again. They may still blame this on the government, which is the point in the end. |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Aug 12, 2023 10:57:03 GMT
You're a week late in welcoming back real football.
At least the Championship is more workaday, less hype, less expensive, fewer prima donnas, with most clubs on the edge of financial obliteration.
More real, in many ways.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Aug 12, 2023 11:28:30 GMT
England a bit lucky to get the goal, but I'll take it
1-1 half time, overall a fair reflection on the game
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Post by pete on Aug 12, 2023 12:32:39 GMT
Lee Anderson helping Labour write their next press release...Nice of him He could've saved time and just said they'd failed on everything. Only the rich, a few weirdoes and freaks think they've done anything good this past 13 years. |
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Post by pete on Aug 12, 2023 12:39:08 GMT
The phrase that springs to mind when I think about this Government is that they couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery They'd struggle to find the brewery. |
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Post by pete on Aug 12, 2023 12:41:44 GMT
Interesting polling, quite positive I think,in view of the large quantity of anti trans messaging Give it a year, the scum have only just started on trans. |
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Post by pete on Aug 12, 2023 12:56:45 GMT
"Elon Musk is in talks with Italy’s government about hosting his proposed cage fight with Mark Zuckerberg at a historic site in the country, but the Colosseum has been ruled out as a venue." Happy to host the event in our newly purchased baby play pen. I'd be up for Musk and Zuckerberg appearing at the Colosseum provided that lions also featured. Very cruel on the lions, whatever did they do to you? |
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Post by Old Southendian on Aug 12, 2023 13:46:16 GMT
No probs, OS. (Don’t blame you for ignoring me!) Have you heard Roger’s rework of Dark Side? Haven’t heard it myself yet, bit worried as he apparently talks over some of the instrumental bits… No I haven't, but you've reminded me I should. Probably will do one day, but I don't rush to his stuff any more, it took me a several years before I got around to listening to his last solo effort. And I know this is a bit elitist, but it's not my favourite PF album anyway. Currently oscillating between Atom Heart Mother and Meddle. |
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Post by bardin1 on Aug 12, 2023 14:38:34 GMT
No probs, OS. (Don’t blame you for ignoring me!) Have you heard Roger’s rework of Dark Side? Haven’t heard it myself yet, bit worried as he apparently talks over some of the instrumental bits… No I haven't, but you've reminded me I should. Probably will do one day, but I don't rush to his stuff any more, it took me a several years before I got around to listening to his last solo effort. And I know this is a bit elitist, but it's not my favourite PF album anyway. Currently oscillating between Atom Heart Mother and Meddle. Meddle for me, then DSM and Ummagumma |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 12, 2023 14:46:51 GMT
No probs, OS. (Don’t blame you for ignoring me!) Have you heard Roger’s rework of Dark Side? Haven’t heard it myself yet, bit worried as he apparently talks over some of the instrumental bits… No I haven't, but you've reminded me I should. Probably will do one day, but I don't rush to his stuff any more, it took me a several years before I got around to listening to his last solo effort. And I know this is a bit elitist, but it's not my favourite PF album anyway. Currently oscillating between Atom Heart Mother and Meddle. ohh, fave Floyd albums. Tricky one… Started checking out the 50th anniversary rework of Dark Side. A few tracks anyway.. Interesting mix - you can hear some things more clearly… (mind you, you could on the remix of Animals, but they lost Rick Wright’s organ on Dogs 👎👎👎) |
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Post by jen on Aug 12, 2023 17:05:57 GMT
I am glad that you are fond of the Scots although, in general, our social values are totally at odds with yours. Why do you think the constitutional question is no longer an issue in Scotland? Surely recent polling shows otherwise? What are your specific criticisms of the new First Minister? Have you ever been to Scotland? Do you have any current contact with Scotland? Or is your opinion based on "reports" from the English press? One of the most memorable days of my life (albeit nearly twenty years ago) was climbing Beinn Alligin, starting (unusually) with the exhilarating Horns. Nearly killed me. But, as you will rightly say, just another effing tourist! Why would I say that? Tourists are welcome, unless they dump their waste in our open spaces, or if they're racist/misogynist/homophobic/transphobic bigots. |
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Post by jen on Aug 12, 2023 17:14:22 GMT
"gyppo" enough said? Don't get me started on the trans cack. You are an anti-British bigot, and to be quite honest, I don't understand why you don't fuck off to Russia, Putin loves people like you, he even funded your political cause. I think I apologised for using a word that others found offensive. To me it was no different to calling a Londoner a cockney. I don't that's offensive, but perhaps it is this week. It's hard to keep up. The rest of your post isn't worth responding to. (i) You didn't apologise, unless you count the usual far-right "I'm sorry you feel insulted" dog whistle shite. (ii) A Cockney is a Londoner, but not all Londoners are Cockneys. You are showing your ignorance. Again. (iii) Of course it's not worth it for you to respond. You can't change facts, no matter what the right-wing media say. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 13, 2023 12:46:34 GMT
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Post by Old Southendian on Aug 13, 2023 18:44:41 GMT
Thanks yes, youtube already identified that one as of interest to me. It's frightening what it knows. I'm a bit puzzled why it recently started recommending videos about roller-coasters though. Maybe it misheard something I said. Otherwise, it's got my tastes pretty much sorted. Let's see, what's it currently recommending. Prog. Sci-Fi. Brexit take-downs. Maths. Hollywood golden era films. Roller-coasters (??). Yes, that just about covers it. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 14, 2023 15:30:58 GMT
Thanks yes, youtube already identified that one as of interest to me. It's frightening what it knows. I'm a bit puzzled why it recently started recommending videos about roller-coasters though. Maybe it misheard something I said. Otherwise, it's got my tastes pretty much sorted. Let's see, what's it currently recommending. Prog. Sci-Fi. Brexit take-downs. Maths. Hollywood golden era films. Roller-coasters (??). Yes, that just about covers it. I started listing all the kinds of stuff in my feed but it soon became onerous. More and more things keep sucking me in. (No rollercoasters tho’… yet). There is some Prog tho’ - The Black Page keeps popping up for some reason. What Prog do you prefer? p.s. Gilmour I think wasn’t very complimentary about Atom Heart Mother, but I know what you mean: it has a certain charm. (And you can hear elements of what was to come…) |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 14, 2023 15:35:17 GMT
No I haven't, but you've reminded me I should. Probably will do one day, but I don't rush to his stuff any more, it took me a several years before I got around to listening to his last solo effort. And I know this is a bit elitist, but it's not my favourite PF album anyway. Currently oscillating between Atom Heart Mother and Meddle. Meddle for me, then DSM and Ummagumma Dark Side first for me, but yeah some consider the live tracks on Ummagumma to be some of the best stuff they ever did and I’m inclined to agree. Esp., Careful with That Axe, and Gilmour’s guitar work on Astronomy Domine |
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Post by Old Southendian on Aug 14, 2023 18:20:03 GMT
There is some Prog tho’ - The Black Page keeps popping up for some reason. What Prog do you prefer? p.s. Gilmour I think wasn’t very complimentary about Atom Heart Mother, but I know what you mean: it has a certain charm. (And you can hear elements of what was to come…)
Great having a dead thread to yourself, isn't it? I guess I really started on Genesis and Jethro Tull, thanks to some friends from college, though both have prolonged non-proggy periods, some, but not all of which I like. I've never really taken to the most complex or heavy prog, though I have listened to it quite a bit. I guess I'd count Yes, King Crimson, ELP in that category. Can listen, like some of it, but find it hard to take it in large quantities. Of course I knew Pink Floyd before that, but mostly from the later works, and only got into the earlier stuff in college again. Also, back at school, I had a friend who introduced me to Marillion, long before I'd even heard the word 'prog'. I got into them for a few years, then completely forgot about them for about 25 years, before rediscovering them. I've recently discovered a liking for Camel, and Spotify/YouTube has led me towards some non-70's and 80's groups, such as Porcupine Tree and Big Big Train. I'd say in general I like the more melodic, orchestral side of prog, rather than the more jazz/experimental influenced side, though not entirely averse to it. Who else? I guess Supertramp on the milder, rockier side of things. Alan Parson's Project of course, and Mike Oldfield.
I'm not averse to anything from the 80's either, prog or non-prog, since it's the time I grew up. I was really into Japan at school, which I think partly explains me picking up on Porcupine Tree (same keyboardist) despite the fact that it's generally a bit more metal than I'd usually go for. I could happily listen to punk, post-punk, electronica or pretty much anything from that period. Depeche Mode used to play in a club in my home town in the early days, so one of the first LPs I bought was theirs. And they only got better from there.
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Post by birdseye on Aug 14, 2023 18:41:34 GMT
I think there is confusion because there are two things with the same initials. The European Convention on Human Rights which we did sign in the early 1950s and the European Court of Human Rights, which came later. According to Wikipedia "The Human Rights Act 1998 (c. 42) is an Act of Parliament of the United Kingdom which received royal assent on 9 November 1998, and came into force on 2 October 2000.[1] Its aim was to incorporate into UK law the rights contained in the European Convention on Human Rights. The Act makes a remedy for breach of a Convention right available in UK courts, without the need to go to the European Court of Human Rights" As I understand the issue it is that the E Court of HR can override UK courts and that is what the Tories seek to overturn. Pedantry alert but see my earlier post: ""The Court of Appeals decided sending anyone to Rwanda would constitute a breach of Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights, "with which parliament has required that the government must comply"."Your dates are correct and hence why folks state ECtHR when they mean 'Court' and ECHR when they mean 'Convention'. It will likely all lead to the same 'conclusion' but exactly how it pans out is TBC of course. The pedantic bit is whether we actually need to leave* the ECHR or can just state that UK law takes supremacy (which will mean repeal (rewrite) of The Human Rights Act 1998 by writing our mostly 'copy+paste' version of ECHR just with a veto on the bits the 'do bad' immigration lawyers are using to maintain their gravy train of criminal gangs providing them with clients). * Which could be voluntary or 'kicked out' on the basis that we've decided to ignore a ECtHR ruling (assuming ECtHR rule against UK HMG). My guess is the 'kicked out' bit could well drag past GE'24 and I wouldn't like to speculate the outcome of a vote in the Council of Europe. Quite a few countries will be very keen for UK's Rwanda scheme to be deemed 'legal' and IMO it is fairly pedantic to say that some of the EU schemes don't break Article 3 of the ECHR as most of the people the EU countries deport back to Tunisia/Libya are not Tunisian or Libyan. There is a valid case to be made for speeding the whole process up and 'voluntarily' leaving ECHR but that would be tricky to get passed in HoC. First up is the UK Supreme Court decision and I don't think a date has even been set for that yet. Ironically Supreme Court stating Rwanda Scheme does break Article 3 of ECHR might well speed things up as it avoids the 'do bad' immigration lawyers dragging it out longer via the ECtHR. Is any of this really relevant? The 1951 refugee convention says that a refugee is " someone who is unable or unwilling to return to their country of origin owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion". So you might be able to refuse refugee status to someone from say Canada but as for africa or the middle east or china - little to no chance. How do you prove in law that someone's fear is not well founded? The courts have shown no willingness to believe civil service or ministers assurances. So assuming a candidate is not so stupid as to admit they arent worried about being persecuted, then if they can get here by boat or other means, its a ticket to ride. I guess we have to find ways to accommodate them all. |
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