Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 10, 2023 21:23:10 GMT
Here's a novel thought. Radical even. Why don't we approach the issue of those seeking asylum in our country from a humanitarian starting point? Default to compassion and philanthropy first before seeing it as a terrible problem. View it instead as a potential cultural and economic benefit to this country and feel some sort of pride that we live in a country and society that people fleeing danger see as safe refuge. They often risk their lives to get here. ... Default to compassion and understanding and work from there. You always end up in a better place if you do. Charity doesn't actually begin at home. Not in the good society, anyway. That's all very well and warm and fuzzy but we already have problems with a housing shortage, creaking infrastructure such as sewage works etc etc. Now no doubt that will all be blamed on the Tory government, but we are where we are. It will take years to fix these things (plus a hell of a lot of cash) and all the time the problems are getting worse because many thousands of immigrants are coming every year. How many can we absorb reasonably painlessly? 100,000 a year? 1,000,000? 10,000,000? There has to be some sort of control, particularly on illegal economic migrants. I see this issue is ongoing and you ask the simple questions that any party seeking to become HMG* should be able to answer 1/ How many 'illegal'** immigrants should we let in each year (noting that there are 108.4 MILLION Forcibly displaced people (of which 5.4Million are considered 'genuine' asylum seekers who don't have the £3k+ cash to pay a criminal gang to get them into the UK) www.unhcr.org/refugee-statistics/2/ Where are we going to house the number in #1 (noting the issue of homelessness and lack of social housing for our own citizens) Both CON and LAB want to 'Stop the Boats' into UK (and most/all EU countries want to 'Stop the Boats' into their polities) - some small differences on approach (eg LAB think France will offer LAB a 'returns' policy when a functional returns agreement doesn't exist within EU and France has already said no). * Greens, LDEM and SNP won't form a 'majority' HMG so can say whatever they want and then do something totally different if they ever get into coalition or C&S with either LAB or CON (as we saw with LDEM in 2010-15). RUK take a stronger view at the opposite end of the spectrum and can say stuff like 'immediately leave ECHR' as they are not HMG and unlikely to ever form HMG. ** Anyone paying a criminal gang to cross the channel on a 'Small Boat' who is expecting to be able to claim asylum is now considered 'illegal'. Folks can use the EU preferred term 'irregular' if they want to. There are 'approved' schemes and we let in 100,000s via those schemes last year alone including "unique (ie one-off) events such as those arriving from Ukraine and Hong Kong"
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/longterminternationalmigrationprovisional/yearendingdecember2022 |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 10, 2023 21:26:08 GMT
🤣 I notice you haven't answered the question about payment for my guided tour services. The last barge trip I went on (maybe 50 years ago) involved strippers and a load of beer. High Culture. The operators believed that the canal counted as international waters because it went into the Black Country from Birmingham and so wasn't subject to licencing laws. Oh, there is no intention to employ you Pete, that was just a ploy to attract paying customers who might (understandably) be fearful of an evening in Droitwich without an armed escort. Oddly, we have no customers at all, paying or otherwise. I'm concerned that if I came on a trip, the two day discussion between Crossbat11 and I as to whether England should have selected a slow-left arm bowler in the 1982/3 England tour party to Australia might possibly be found boring by others. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 10, 2023 21:31:01 GMT
The Angles and Saxons arrived in these islands illegally in small boats.
30p Lee will demand they fuck off back to Frisia while Braverman will want them forcibly renditioned to the Bachwezi Empire.
Coming over here and becoming indigenous the absolute bastards.
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Mr Poppy
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Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
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Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 10, 2023 21:32:22 GMT
Not my polity but I am currently in Canada and note the below. Starmer is of course 'long opposed to PR' (since he became LAB leader) so won't be breaking a manifesto promise and hence less likely to meet the same fate: (for those not familiar with Canadian politics then CON (CPC) are 'Billy no mates' but have run min.govts in the past. Liberals (LPC) are Centre-Left, NDP are Left, GPC are green and Bloc Québécois (BQ) are Quebec Nationalists who have effectively lost the ability to become independent after the Clarity Acts but can potentially be 'blockers' in the same way SNP could) NB IMO we are mainly seeing an 'anti-incumbent' move in most polities (arguably not in US as GoP have gone totally crazy). Since some countries had a liberal/socialist govt then the 'Alternative' is to the right (and again something Starmer is perhaps seeing off in advance by shifting LAB so far to the right to avoid having any 'target' for CON to aim at - by becoming Tory you can't be out-Toried) globaleurope.eu/europes-future/the-resurgence-of-germanys-far-right-what-does-it-mean-for-europe/ |
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Post by mercian on Aug 10, 2023 21:39:02 GMT
The Angles and Saxons arrived in these islands illegally in small boats. 30p Lee will demand they fuck off back to Frisia while Braverman will want them forcibly renditioned to the Bachwezi Empire. Coming over here and becoming indigenous the absolute bastards. They were invited (initially at least). |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 10, 2023 21:41:05 GMT
This reminds me of an American children's encyclopedia I own that offers up a list of 12 "great Americans" that includes Kamehameha I (1758?-1819) the man who united the Hawaiian islands into a single kingdom, long before the USA took over that place. It has always struck me as bizarre. In what sense is he an American? The others, in case anyone wonders, are (in alphabetical order) George Washington Carver, Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain), Thomas Edison, Benjamin Franklin, Sam Houston, Abraham Lincoln, Douglas MacArthur, Sequoyah (aka George Gist), Anna Eleanor Rooseveldt, Booker T Washington and George Washington. Indeed. My encyclopedia (aimed at American children remember) describes that process in the following terms: "Kamehameha I (1758?-1819), born on the island of Hawaii, is the only real king included here. He united the islands, ruled the entire kingdom of Hawaii and made widespread and lasting government improvements. At about the time ships began to stop at Hawaii on their way westwards, Kamehameha I united the islands under his leadership. He bartered with the ship captains, trading food and water for guns and other products of Western civilisation." So what you said, only making the mini-imperialist sound like a good guy. 'Manifest destiny' at work perhaps. Mind you the next part after the list of 12 begins: "A more perfect Union. Nothing like the government of the United States has ever been seen in world history." Hmm. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2023 21:41:53 GMT
Oh, there is no intention to employ you Pete, that was just a ploy to attract paying customers who might (understandably) be fearful of an evening in Droitwich without an armed escort. Oddly, we have no customers at all, paying or otherwise. I'm concerned that if I came on a trip, the two day discussion between Crossbat11 and I as to whether England should have selected a slow-left arm bowler in the 1982/3 England tour party to Australia might possibly be found boring by others. Not compared to the sightseeing. Well…… compared to everything really. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 10, 2023 21:45:47 GMT
The Angles and Saxons arrived in these islands illegally in small boats. 30p Lee will demand they fuck off back to Frisia while Braverman will want them forcibly renditioned to the Bachwezi Empire. Coming over here and becoming indigenous the absolute bastards. Don't get me started on those bloody Danes - coming over here and stealing our women just because they washed with soap. ”The Danes, thanks to their habit to comb their hair every day, to bathe every Saturday, to change their garments often, and set off their persons by many such frivolous devices. In this manner, they laid siege to the virtue of the married women, and persuaded the daughters even of the nobles to be their concubines.” John of Wallingford |
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Mr Poppy
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Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
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Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 10, 2023 21:51:56 GMT
The Angles and Saxons arrived in these islands illegally in small boats. 30p Lee will demand they fuck off back to Frisia while Braverman will want them forcibly renditioned to the Bachwezi Empire. Coming over here and becoming indigenous the absolute bastards. They were invited (initially at least). Not sure about the legality of their arrival at the time but IIRC it was quite some time ago (ie what is the relevance of what happened hundreds of years ago to now/future?) If we're going back centuries then should I get the campaign for Viking slavery reparations going? There is a reasonable chance some of my very distant relatives from the once mighty Kingdom of Essex were slaves so maybe I should demand reparations from Sweden/Denmark (and note I'm being sarcastic)  Perhaps it is worth agreeing on what constitutes citizenship or 'indigenous' population and dare I suggest that we start with 'citizenship' and perhaps add on anyone legally allowed to be here on a visa who legally entered the country by a legal route. Open to other suggestions and note someone on holiday (tourist visa) is so short-term that IMO they wouldn't count as 'indigenous' but should obviously obey the laws of the land while they are in our country (as we would be expected to do in their country). |
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Post by RAF on Aug 10, 2023 21:56:54 GMT
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Post by mercian on Aug 10, 2023 22:34:28 GMT
LD gain Castle Cary from Con, though it was expected as Con was 2nd to LD last time when both got elected.
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Post by graham on Aug 10, 2023 22:38:03 GMT
Anent the earlier discussion about the Greens winning Bristol West. A fortnight today there is a council by-election in Bishopston and Ashley Down ward, historically a Labour seat within Bristol West, it might give us all a few clues. I will keep my ear to the ground. I doubt it will mean much at all re- the Parliamentary election. I don't expect the Greens to win any seats in Bristol - Ditto Norwich!
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Aug 10, 2023 22:44:35 GMT
The Angles and Saxons arrived in these islands illegally in small boats. 30p Lee will demand they fuck off back to Frisia while Braverman will want them forcibly renditioned to the Bachwezi Empire. Coming over here and becoming indigenous the absolute bastards. Don't get me started on those bloody Danes - coming over here and stealing our women just because they washed with soap. ”The Danes, thanks to their habit to comb their hair every day, to bathe every Saturday, to change their garments often, and set off their persons by many such frivolous devices. In this manner, they laid siege to the virtue of the married women, and persuaded the daughters even of the nobles to be their concubines.” John of Wallingford |
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Post by eor on Aug 10, 2023 23:15:00 GMT
RAF - he does like to think out loud, that guy. God only knows what his actual intent is; what he's quoted there as implying could be real, and he reckons if Trump and Biden look like dominating their respective primaries then there's room for him to have a genuine shot at the Presidency as a third-party candidate. Or he could just be dangling the spectre of the chaos that would cause, so as to give him the maximum amount of coal-digging leverage before he retires from the Senate next year. Or any number of things in between, such as wanting to gain leverage and profile to improve his chances of getting re-elected to the Senate.
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Post by mercian on Aug 10, 2023 23:36:32 GMT
Upminster - Residents Association hold. Wychavon counting later today (Friday).
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Post by eor on Aug 11, 2023 0:29:19 GMT
Anent the earlier discussion about the Greens winning Bristol West. A fortnight today there is a council by-election in Bishopston and Ashley Down ward, historically a Labour seat within Bristol West, it might give us all a few clues. I will keep my ear to the ground. I doubt it will mean much at all re- the Parliamentary election. I don't expect the Greens to win any seats in Bristol - Ditto Norwich!
Given that in Bristol they have councillors in nearly half of the wards, it feels like unless the new boundaries are really unlucky for them they ought to be in with a shot somewhere? (I joined the earlier scepticism about Bristol West specifically, because it just seems beyond the realm to be suggesting a seat Labour won by such utterly massive majorities in 2017 and 2019 could be under threat now when Labour's polling has gone up since 2019 and there's almost nothing left for the Greens to squeeze from any other party. But if the Bristol seats are being radically redrawn then the recent council elections may not be any worse a guide than the notional GE figures that will be quoted) |
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Post by mercian on Aug 11, 2023 0:47:18 GMT
I'm watching the film '1984'. I read the book years ago.
Two quotes which I've already noticed:
"Control the language and disloyal thoughts are impossible" (That's an approximation)
"If there's any hope it lies with the proles."
The first quote reminds me of this site.
The second may well have some modern relevance.
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 11, 2023 4:29:09 GMT
LD gain Castle Cary, Somerset UA
Lib Dem 1,247 54.8% (+10.4)
Con 614 27.0% (-15.7)
Green 415 18.2% (+5.3)
HAVERING Upminster (UCRA hold)
Jacqueline Ann Williams (Upminster and Cranham Residents Association) 1,642 63.2% (+0.1)
Edward Andrew Green (Conservatives) 421 16.2% (-3.7)
John Gregory Sullivan (Labour Party) 234 9.0% (-0.4)
David Warren Durant (Independent) 150 5.8% (New)
Melanie Jane Collins (Green Party) 115 4.4% (-3.1)
Thomas Patrick Clark (Liberal Democrats) 35 1.3% (New)
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 11, 2023 5:10:00 GMT
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 11, 2023 5:15:45 GMT
Another win for the home team in Somerset I would say this might be a good indication that we would win the parliamentary constituency where Castle Cary is situated from the Tories.
But we did already!
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 11, 2023 5:22:34 GMT
The corruption of Clarence Thomas It's actually surprising that given the sheer volume of the largesse this grifter was receiving that he actually found the time to fit in his unhinged far right legal judgements. youtu.be/DsVRPU_Q1uM |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Aug 11, 2023 5:30:14 GMT
The corruption of Clarence Thomas It's actually surprising that given the sheer volume of the largesse this grifter was receiving that he actually found the time to fit in his unhinged far right legal judgements. youtu.be/DsVRPU_Q1uMHe really is a supreme grifter www.theguardian.com/law/2023/aug/10/clarence-thomas-gift-vacation-supreme-courtThe US supreme court justice Clarence Thomas appears to have violated US law by failing to disclose “flights, yacht cruises and expensive sports tickets” bestowed by wealthy friends behind at least 38 destination vacations, ethics experts told ProPublica in its latest blockbuster report on the conservative judge and his friends. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 11, 2023 5:45:55 GMT
There has to be some sort of control, particularly on illegal economic migrants. In principle, but this really is a straw man. The total number of actually illegal migrants is and always has been negligible. The largest number has probably been people coming as tourists and then working, but many checks have been introduced to prevent that happening now. And it was never a problem in the sense of masses of feckless people around, they were all busy working to do jobs we wanted done. Its obvious past governments connived in allowing in workers as tourists. There is a huge housing shortage in the Uk, but that is totally due to indigenous brits (yep, thats a useful word), legal migrants plus the refusal to build suitable accommodation. I live on an estate built in the sixties. If you were building from scratch now you would get in at least 50% more homes, because at that time land availability was not an issue. It still is no more of an issue than then, empty land hasnt disappeared in that time, but we now ration it ruthlessly. Worse than that, pretty much every original home has by now been enlarged from the original, indeed taking advantage of the generous land allowances, but the result is small homes disappearing and becoming bigger homes. So no starter homes. Its true older Victorian houses have been converted into flats, for example a three story victorian terraced or semi town house becomes three two bedroom well sized flats. Which should give people pause to contemplate that one family used to occupy the equivalent of a six bed three reception house. How have we come to such miserly space allowances in such a rich society? The obvious answer is that Thatcher ended state provision of homes, and the private sector has no interest whatsoever in providing cheap housing. They need shortage and maximum return on minium built structure, and that is what successive con/lab/con have given them. Its a national scandal. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Aug 11, 2023 5:56:00 GMT
A good point, but of course we now know that when the new illegal immigration act doesn't work (and it won't) this incompetent bunch of Tory grifters will just blame 'lefty lawyers' and the ECHR
'But it would of worked if, if, if...'
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 11, 2023 5:56:46 GMT
It might have had some small effect on current inflation caused by the Ukraine war but most countries have seen inflation. It's already coming down anyway. What, 20% inflation s coming down to 5-10% so we should all be happy? You believe even 1% extra inflation would be a price worth paying for Brexit? I dont! I do not however think long term severe inflation was a likely consequence of brexit. Yes, the changes in trading relationship, fall of the pound, caused an immediate hit, was it a 15% fall in the pound and therefore 15% rise in all imported goods prices? I guess 1% a year ongoing fall in the pound and therefore ongoing inflation would be reasonable, so I guess that may continue due to brexit. The real problem though is the general loss of competitiveness of British goods and services, therfore permanently lower growth. pLus for those who care about it, the loss of sovereignty because we can no longer control rules created in europe or indeed internationally, but will just have to obey them. For example, that we can no longer return migrants to France. Which was a problem totally created by Brexit.
Its such an irony that before brexit we could have prevented every single immigrant coming from non eu countries. But we chose to let them in. After brexit we can control every immigrant coming from europe. But we choose to still let most of them in, those that still want to come, many now dont. But we have now lost control of the only practical route for non sanctioned immigrants, those crossing the channel themselves. And honestly, as a French government, why on earth would you want to stop people leaving France for England? It was only our joint eu membership which set this up.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 11, 2023 6:31:38 GMT
I see this issue is ongoing and you ask the simple questions that any party seeking to become HMG* should be able to answer 1/ How many 'illegal'** immigrants should we let in each year (noting that there are 108.4 MILLION Forcibly displaced people (of which 5.4Million are considered 'genuine' asylum seekers who don't have the £3k+ cash to pay a criminal gang to get them into the UK) I had a look for some stats over time about the number of migrants to the UK, almost all of whom are economic migrants allowed in, not refugees or illegals. It might be about half a million a year. Another page suggested 14% of the UK population are not british born, ao that would be about ten million. Plus of course all their descendants who wouldnt be here either if they had not been allowed in. So maybe 20% of our population is down to lawful, indeed encouraged, immigration. The shortage of social housing is because the Thatcher era government ended its provision. It has nothing to do with refugees. Our shortage of housing is a deliberate persistent government policy. They have used every trick they can to maintain a shortage. The Ukrainians will all go home again if we actually provide them with the weapons they need to win. Its interesting how approved schemes have been very selective in those admitted, so they still manage to preferentially allow in the rich and key skills. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 11, 2023 6:42:33 GMT
Don't get me started on those bloody Danes - coming over here and stealing our women just because they washed with soap. ”The Danes, thanks to their habit to comb their hair every day, to bathe every Saturday, to change their garments often, and set off their persons by many such frivolous devices. In this manner, they laid siege to the virtue of the married women, and persuaded the daughters even of the nobles to be their concubines.” John of Wallingford Gosh, it seems there were three John of Wallingfords. The infirmarian, the abbot, and the anon whose writings became bundled in with those of one of the above. Although since john is a good christian name and wallingford was simply the name of their abbey, there were presumably hundreds. One might wonder why a monk was worrying about a shortage of women. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 11, 2023 6:55:00 GMT
True story, tugs at the heartstrings  |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 11, 2023 6:56:59 GMT
Danny
I knew a John in Watford wonder if they were related?
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Post by alec on Aug 11, 2023 6:58:00 GMT
I caught this on twitter, and liked it;
""They'd tell us if it was as bad as you say."
Don't make me laugh. They didn't tell us about smoking, asbestos, AIDS, lead paint, or pretty much any other noxious thing you could name.
It all came from below, from the people, and from unions."
It surprises me how quickly many people fall into line with official messaging on many health issues, despite the numerous examples of when these have been disastrously wrong. Most of us, for example, will be too young to remember the swathe of adverts showing real doctors extolling the virtues of cigarettes as a way to stay healthy and avoid infections.
We are strangely trusting, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
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