7-Feb-2022 : LAB: 42 / CON: 32 / LDEM: 9 / GRN: 6

[steamdrivenandy]

Feb 8, 2022 13:50:08 GMT hireton said:

Chief Whip mark Spencer becomes Leader of the House and Chris Heaton-Harris takes over as Chief Whip having a served a full 51 days as Minister for Europe.

I bet Aaron Bell gets Ministry of Toilet Cleaning.

[barbara]

Feb 8, 2022 13:33:45 GMT hireton said:

Rees Mogg moved from Leader of the House to become Brexit Opportunities Minister still within the Cabinet.

He'll have even more time to lounge about disrespectfully on the HOC benches. Honestly, this reshuffle brings home the absolutely dire set of nonentities who have and are about to occupy these positions. Not one would have got anywhere with a decent PM.

[Deleted]

Looks like a really, really exciting change to the cabinet and could definitely improve their current standing in the polls.

A Brexit Opportunities Minister - especially of the calibre of the Moggster - is exactly what this country needs. 10/10 from me.

[steve]

Rees Mogg " Brexit opportunities minister"
So what's he going to do with the other 23 hours 59 minutes and fifty nine seconds a day when he isn't working?

I know.



Attachment Deleted

[steve]

Spaffer looking to improve his cabinet.

With a few six inch screws and a mallet would be happy to help out.

[neilj]

Feb 8, 2022 13:36:21 GMT mandolinist said:

Feb 8, 2022 13:33:45 GMT hireton said:

Rees Mogg moved from Leader of the House to become Brexit Opportunities Minister still within the Cabinet.

Well, that's an empty promise and a non-job if I ever saw one.

As Rees-mogg has previously said it would take 50 years to see the benefits of Brexit I don't think he will be too busy 😀

[turk]

I certainly agree with the speaker that words have consequences. Who can forget the former deputy Labour Leader Tom Watson hiding behind parliamentary privilege claiming there was a paedophile ring operating at the heart of Parliament and making claims that a previous prime minister was involved. Then going on to actively meddle in the police investigation by implicating Leon Brittan who despite dying from cancer was hounded by the press and media as a direct result of Watsons accusations.

I don’t remember the Labour leadership making any apologies after it was all proved to be a pack of lies .

Re Starmer how to handle being ambushed by a small crowd of people shouting obscenities at you look no further than Jacob Rees Mogg when he was confronted whilst walking with his young son by a group of anti Vaxxers hurling insults just thanked the police and said it was all part of political life.

Those getting upset by Starmers confrontation, well as far as I can see Johnson in the last PMQ actually said he didn’t mean Starmer was directly involved in not prosecuting Savile .However Starmer had spent the last two months at PMQ’s telling Johnson that partygate was the direct responsibility of the person at the top regardless if the PM was present or not and as such being the person at the top must bare full responsibility for what happened.
Johnson in his initial response had pointed out that at the time of Savile ,Starmer was the man at the Top of the CPS and the CPS had failed to prosecute Savile which is quite correct.

Savile regardless of what we now know was one of the highest known celebrities in the U.K. And although there were tens of thousands of cases going through the courts at the time and obviously Starmer wouldn’t have known a fraction of these cases personally ,it does seem a little unusual that such a well known celebrity coming to light didn’t come to his attention. But he said he wasn’t aware so we have to take that as true.

But even so the hot air being generated by some over a off hand comment from Johnson under pressure from Starmer no way equates with the comments that the slimy Watson made fully knowing his HoC accusations and what turned out to be lies would be reported in the press . As Lady Brittan said after the death of her husband It’s to late for Tom Watson to apologise but his attempts to distance himself from the false allegations of Carl Beech in the wake of the guilty verdict is disingenuous and untruthful.

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2022 14:31:46 GMT turk said:

I certainly agree with the speaker that words have consequences. Who can forget the former deputy Labour Leader Tom Watson hiding behind parliamentary privilege claiming there was a paedophile ring operating at the heart of Parliament and making claims that a previous prime minister was involved. Then going on to actively meddle in the police investigation by implicating Leon Brittan who despite dying from cancer was hounded by the press and media as a direct result of Watsons accusations.

Classic whataboutery!

Pity the Home Sec couldn't find any of the previous files on the case.

[domjg]

Feb 8, 2022 14:31:46 GMT turk said:

I certainly agree with the speaker that words have consequences. Who can forget the former deputy Labour Leader Tom Watson hiding behind parliamentary privilege claiming there was a paedophile ring operating at the heart of Parliament and making claims that a previous prime minister was involved. Then going on to actively meddle in the police investigation by implicating Leon Brittan who despite dying from cancer was hounded by the press and media as a direct result of Watsons accusations.

I don’t remember the Labour leadership making any apologies after it was all proved to be a pack of lies .

Re Starmer how to handle being ambushed by a small crowd of people shouting obscenities at you look no further than Jacob Rees Mogg when he was confronted whilst walking with his young son by a group of anti Vaxxers hurling insults just thanked the police and said it was all part of political life.

Those getting upset by Starmers confrontation, well as far as I can see Johnson in the last PMQ actually said he didn’t mean Starmer was directly involved in not prosecuting Savile .However Starmer had spent the last two months at PMQ’s telling Johnson that partygate was the direct responsibility of the person at the top regardless if the PM was present or not and as such being the person at the top must bare full responsibility for what happened.
Johnson in his initial response had pointed out that at the time of Savile ,Starmer was the man at the Top of the CPS and the CPS had failed to prosecute Savile which is quite correct.

Savile regardless of what we now know was one of the highest known celebrities in the U.K. And although there were tens of thousands of cases going through the courts at the time and obviously Starmer wouldn’t have known a fraction of these cases personally ,it does seem a little unusual that such a well known celebrity coming to light didn’t come to his attention. But he said he wasn’t aware so we have to take that as true.

But even so the hot air being generated by some over a off hand comment from Johnson under pressure from Starmer no way equates with the comments that the slimy Watson made fully knowing his HoC accusations and what turned out to be lies would be reported in the press . As Lady Brittan said after the death of her husband It’s to late for Tom Watson to apologise but his attempts to distance himself from the false allegations of Carl Beech in the wake of the guilty verdict is disingenuous and untruthful.

turk Who on earth do you think you're going to convince on here with that?

[Deleted]

You really are a die-hard reality denier, Turk.

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2022 14:24:11 GMT neilj said:

Feb 8, 2022 13:36:21 GMT mandolinist said:

Well, that's an empty promise and a non-job if I ever saw one.

As Rees-mogg has previously said it would take 50 years to see the benefits of Brexit I don't think he will be too busy 😀

Already being called the Minister for B.O.

[Deleted]

Folks can scoff at the toff, and I'm sure they will, but SMogg of the BOGE is filling part of the role left by Frosty (the other part going to Truss). If anyone wants some light reading then 130page report from TIGRR (yes, I know, I don't come up with the names and I also know (and have stated) that a some of these things we could have done even inside EU - but we didn't - hence 'catalyst for change')

www.gov.uk/government/publications/taskforce-on-innovation-growth-and-regulatory-reform-independent-report

NB1 Those are suggestions and not all will make it to new policy/laws or ripping up/changing existing regulations or laws. In most cases the changes will either save money or at least not cost money (where as Gove is stuck trying to do 'Level-Up' without any ££ as there is no ££ left without raising taxes and Rishi is on 'Socialist watch' already). Some ideas are not in the report (for various reasons) so it's not an exhaustive list. No need to shoot the messenger, if it's not of interest then scroll on bye.

NB2 There is also supposed to be more 'backbench policy groups' (although I doubt that will get formal announcement and I'm fully aware of the 'too many cooks' risk)

[steve]

domjg


"turk Who on earth do you think you're going to convince on here with that."

Himself?

[steve]

@tw

Sorry mate maybe I lost track with your pet names for your favourite brexitanians but your last post seems pretty opaque even by your standards.

[alec]

turk - "...well as far as I can see Johnson in the last PMQ actually said he didn’t mean Starmer was directly involved in not prosecuting Savile"

To be honest Turk, it's another nose dive in your one interesting standing on UKPR to see you parroting far right conspiracy websites.

You're wrong as well. Johnson actually claimed Starmer was personally responsible for the failure to prosecute, before rowing this back some days later.

You may also wish to stir you mind to the fact that the allegations that you misrepresent have led to Johnson's longest and most loyal aide resigning, along with three MPs sending in no confidence letters and a slew of Conservatives saying that Johnson's actions were completely unnacceptable.

Why is it that you slavishly follow the prevailing CCHQ line, and is it possible for you to think for yourself, just for once?It's people like you normalising far right nonsense that lets democracy down, and your post bears personal responsibility.

[patrickbrian]

Lots of laughs on UKPR2 today! Thanks...

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2022 14:31:46 GMT turk said:

I certainly agree with the speaker that words have consequences...

I don't disagree with much of what you say and appreciate your honesty in what is a 'hostile environment' on UKPR2 but at a minimum Boris shouldn't sink to their level and plumb new depths. There is also the issue of 'political antennae' (reading the room) and Boris (who was supposed to be good at that) could have quickly given a full apology (as per Mirza's request that led to her leaving).

Boris doesn't seem to release how so many folks, see polling[1], have turned against him and he just keeps on digging with gaffe after gaffe. It started with the 'Owen (Paterson) goal' and he's still digging his own (and CON's) grave. I don't mind him being '10% clown' and that was part of his 'charm' but he's been 100% prat for 6mths or so, which means to get back to 10% he has to be on 'best behaviour' and 'gaffe-free' for several years, starting yesterday!!

[1] I haven't seem any very specific polling on the Saville comments but in broader polling then with the ongoing 'gaffe-a-thon' then Boris's own ratings are at levels where previous leaders/PMs have been removed (either by their own MPs or by the voters in a GE). See Prof Curtice piece:
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-polls-parties-curtice-b2009036.html

PS Either Starmer 'did' or 'did not' so the statement 'he did not' is not false but that does not mean Boris should have ever mentioned it or that he should not offer a more sincere apology. As someone who the vast majority of people think is lying over 'Partygate' then Boris would be wise to fully apologise and stop digging (or simply resign)

PS2 If you want a list of just a few ABCON MPs who have 'sunk to low levels' in the past then Guido (as usual) happy to stir things up with some trips down memory lane:
order-order.com/2022/02/08/spare-us-the-hyperbolic-hypocrisy-of-mps-on-the-language-of-incitement/

[superted]

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2022 14:31:46 GMT turk said:

I certainly agree with the speaker that words have consequences. Who can forget the former deputy Labour Leader Tom Watson hiding behind parliamentary privilege claiming there was a paedophile ring operating at the heart of Parliament and making claims that a previous prime minister was involved. Then going on to actively meddle in the police investigation by implicating Leon Brittan who despite dying from cancer was hounded by the press and media as a direct result of Watsons accusations.

I don’t remember the Labour leadership making any apologies after it was all proved to be a pack of lies .

Re Starmer how to handle being ambushed by a small crowd of people shouting obscenities at you look no further than Jacob Rees Mogg when he was confronted whilst walking with his young son by a group of anti Vaxxers hurling insults just thanked the police and said it was all part of political life.

Those getting upset by Starmers confrontation, well as far as I can see Johnson in the last PMQ actually said he didn’t mean Starmer was directly involved in not prosecuting Savile .However Starmer had spent the last two months at PMQ’s telling Johnson that partygate was the direct responsibility of the person at the top regardless if the PM was present or not and as such being the person at the top must bare full responsibility for what happened.
Johnson in his initial response had pointed out that at the time of Savile ,Starmer was the man at the Top of the CPS and the CPS had failed to prosecute Savile which is quite correct.

Savile regardless of what we now know was one of the highest known celebrities in the U.K. And although there were tens of thousands of cases going through the courts at the time and obviously Starmer wouldn’t have known a fraction of these cases personally ,it does seem a little unusual that such a well known celebrity coming to light didn’t come to his attention. But he said he wasn’t aware so we have to take that as true.

But even so the hot air being generated by some over a off hand comment from Johnson under pressure from Starmer no way equates with the comments that the slimy Watson made fully knowing his HoC accusations and what turned out to be lies would be reported in the press . As Lady Brittan said after the death of her husband It’s to late for Tom Watson to apologise but his attempts to distance himself from the false allegations of Carl Beech in the wake of the guilty verdict is disingenuous and untruthful.

Righteous indignation doesn't have a memory.  They won't be interested.

One quibble with your excellent post-I don't agree that it was an offhand comment from Johnson. It was a deliberate attempt to divert the examination he was under. And the diversion he used could not have been more ill chosen-the subject of online conspiracies. It caused an apparently loyal and effective adviser who has been with him for a long time, to resign.

The idiots who accosted Starmer are well known and he accidently gave them an opportunity with their anti-vax ranting . But their use of the Saville attack was bound to be linked to Johnson because he used the same one in HoC

He clearly thinks he can power his way out of trouble in his party by sheer force of personality. I'm not convinced that a Con VI lead will return with him at the helm. I can only hope that the MPs remember that if you are not in power you can't change anything.

[crossbat11]

turk

"Those getting upset by Starmers confrontation, well as far as I can see Johnson in the last PMQ actually said he didn’t mean Starmer was directly involved in not prosecuting Savile .However Starmer had spent the last two months at PMQ’s telling Johnson that partygate was the direct responsibility of the person at the top regardless if the PM was present or not and as such being the person at the top must bare full responsibility for what happened.

Johnson in his initial response had pointed out that at the time of Savile ,Starmer was the man at the Top of the CPS and the CPS had failed to prosecute Savile which is quite correct."

Again, you either woefully or wilfully misunderstand. Johnson is trying to claim that his only culpability over partygate is that it happened "on his watch", hence his ridiculous attempt to make that an equivalent failure to Saville not being prosecuted under Starmer's "watch" as DPP. Even without the full Gray Report and Met investigation report, it is clear that Johnson was involved in many of the Covid regulation transgressions, cocking a snoop at all the others who were meticulously observing them. This has deeply offended and angered many millions of people and undermined the very public health and anti-pandemic measures that he was meant to be championing.

Starmer, on the other hand, happened to be Director of Public Prosecutions at a time when experienced legal minds within the DPP, after meticulous examination, felt that there was insufficient evidence to mount a successful prosecution against Saville. Starmer, as even Johnson admits, took no personal part in either the examination of the evidence or the decision not to prosecute. Johnson however, as in the far Right propaganda exercise, wants the maggot of an idea that Starmer protected Saville to burrow into some level of  public consciousness. That's the pure evil of what Johnson has dog whistled into the public sphere. He knows all about the Qanon far Right stuff that tries to link metropolitan elites with paedophile rings. That's his game and the British Right are ventriiquising it now as he fully hoped and expected they would.

If you can't see that beyond trying to belittle it with hackneyed whataboutery, then you're beyond the pale, my man.

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2022 14:34:20 GMT domjg said:

Feb 8, 2022 14:31:46 GMT turk said:

I certainly agree with the speaker that words have consequences. Who can forget the former deputy Labour Leader Tom Watson hiding behind parliamentary privilege claiming there was a paedophile ring operating at the heart of Parliament and making claims that a previous prime minister was involved. Then going on to actively meddle in the police investigation by implicating Leon Brittan who despite dying from cancer was hounded by the press and media as a direct result of Watsons accusations.

I don’t remember the Labour leadership making any apologies after it was all proved to be a pack of lies .

Re Starmer how to handle being ambushed by a small crowd of people shouting obscenities at you look no further than Jacob Rees Mogg when he was confronted whilst walking with his young son by a group of anti Vaxxers hurling insults just thanked the police and said it was all part of political life.

Those getting upset by Starmers confrontation, well as far as I can see Johnson in the last PMQ actually said he didn’t mean Starmer was directly involved in not prosecuting Savile .However Starmer had spent the last two months at PMQ’s telling Johnson that partygate was the direct responsibility of the person at the top regardless if the PM was present or not and as such being the person at the top must bare full responsibility for what happened.
Johnson in his initial response had pointed out that at the time of Savile ,Starmer was the man at the Top of the CPS and the CPS had failed to prosecute Savile which is quite correct.

Savile regardless of what we now know was one of the highest known celebrities in the U.K. And although there were tens of thousands of cases going through the courts at the time and obviously Starmer wouldn’t have known a fraction of these cases personally ,it does seem a little unusual that such a well known celebrity coming to light didn’t come to his attention. But he said he wasn’t aware so we have to take that as true.

But even so the hot air being generated by some over a off hand comment from Johnson under pressure from Starmer no way equates with the comments that the slimy Watson made fully knowing his HoC accusations and what turned out to be lies would be reported in the press . As Lady Brittan said after the death of her husband It’s to late for Tom Watson to apologise but his attempts to distance himself from the false allegations of Carl Beech in the wake of the guilty verdict is disingenuous and untruthful.

turk Who on earth do you think you're going to convince on here with that?

No one-but he is entitled to say it.

[crossbat11]

colin


"Righteous indignation doesn't have a memory. They won't be interested."

If this is an attempt to belittle or parody anything I said in my post, then you are completely wrong.

My post was an expression of dismay and deeply felt disgust with modern Toryism.

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2022 15:31:18 GMT crossbat11 said:

colin


"Righteous indignation doesn't have a memory. They won't be interested."

If this is an attempt to belittle or parody anything I said in my post, then you are completely wrong.

My post was an expression of dismay and deeply felt disgust with modern Toryism.

It was not about you.

Relax.

[crossbat11]

Feb 8, 2022 15:21:58 GMT superted said:

Well, if there might be one unintended but welcome consequence of Johnson's attempt to smear Starmer, then it may well be that it turbo-charges Starmer's increase in visibility and public sympathy.  Even affection, possibly.

Thereby lies the passport to getting a hearing.

[alec]

colin - "One quibble with your [turk 's] excellent post-I don't agree that it was an offhand comment from Johnson."

Very sorry to see you clambering into the gutter too. You're very tribal these days, sadly.

There was nothing "excellent" about turk 's post, which was riddled with factual innacurracies.

turk 's main line of defence was - "Johnson in his initial response had pointed out that at the time of Savile ,Starmer was the man at the Top of the CPS and the CPS had failed to prosecute Savile which is quite correct."

That is false. What Johnson actually said was - "Instead this leader of the opposition, a former director of public prosecution – who used his time prosecuting journalists and failing to prosecute Jimmy Savile, as far as I can see – he chose to use this moment to continually pre-judge a police inquiry."

He linked Starmer personally to the failure to prosecute, and the entire claim had been dismissed as false by numerous independent fact checking organisations.

So if you think Turks factually incorrect reinterpretation of the comments was somehow excellent, then you really need to ask yourself why you are allying with the far right conspiracy nut jobs too.

Then, if you still think Turk's post was excellent, you perhaps should have questioned why Turk dismisses Watson's genuine apology and admission that he got the Carl Beech story wrong. Watson can be (rightly, in my view) accused of failing to apologise quickly enough, but his apology when it came seemed genuine and heartfelt, and he fully accepted he had been fooled by Beech.

But that's the beauty of Johnson aligning with far right conspiracies. Such is our Conservative body politic at present, that a Tory PM can rely on 'decent' conservatives like you and Turk to trot out and find excuses for things that should be condemned without reservation.

[somerjohn]

A small but interesting example of how UK-based businesses with an established EU customer base are reacting to brexit by setting up new facilities within the EU, and shifting purchasing from UK to EU suppliers:


Mark Lyon, Founder and Managing Director of GTO Engineering said:

“We know that we [GTO Engineering and GTO Parts] are not alone with the frustrations of shipping, customs and duties for items sent from the UK to Europe post-Brexit. Our response has been to invest in a new base for our company to help reduce some of the hassle and confusion for our customers, and also to source parts from European sellers. We will now be able, with clarity, to confirm the exact duty to be paid and ensure only one set of VAT/taxes will be applicable, compared to our current predicament that duties are paid by European clients on receipt of items sent by us from the UK.”

newspressuk.com/publicReleaseView/101366/57101?token=geIMIifxMSMwFvcZj6hT&email_encrypt=am9obkBqb2hua2Vyc3dpbGwuY28udWtFbWFpbEhhc2g=

[pete]

Rayner and Watson both apologised. Rayners I'm not bothered about as calling someone/Tories scum isn't anywhere near the crap Corbyn took (and I say that someone who himself thought Corbyn was a knob)...so grow some.

Watson, IMO should've been visited by the police. He went way too far with no evidence to back it up.

[catfuzz]

Can we not agree that politicians should not be using slander to shape public discourse, regardless of what colour team they are supporting?

I’m unfamiliar with the Tom Watson example, but if it were like Johnson’s, then I agree it should not have happened and he should have faced the consequences. Likewise for Johnson - he broke the law (of which he was presiding) and should rightly be ejected from the role of PM.

[alec]

@catfuzz - "Can we not agree that politicians should not be using slander to shape public discourse, regardless of what colour team they are supporting?"

Yes indeed, that is where we are trying to get to. Any politician who lies should be criticised, but what we have here are some RoC posters (not all, it needs to be said) seeking to excuse and defend Johnson's behaviour with ever more tortured logic.

I don't think any of the LoC posters will have any trouble is agreeing that Watson was just wrong to do what he did. The same can't be said of the Johnson apologists, and this asymmetrical inability to critique your own side by the RoC is something I have noted on here previously.

[Deleted]

colin

“ One quibble with your excellent post-I don't agree that it was an offhand comment from Johnson. It was a deliberate attempt to divert the examination he was under. And the diversion he used could not have been more ill chosen-the subject of online conspiracies. It caused an apparently loyal and effective adviser who has been with him for a long time, to resign.”

So the fact that this has been clearly reported as a pre-planned line of attack by Johnson - despite being false and despite turk claiming that it was “offhand” - struggles to reach ‘quibble’ status for you.

Good grief.