pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 8, 2022 16:44:15 GMT
turk Who on earth do you think you're going to convince on here with that? It's always helpful to know what the latest Central Office propaganda line is from turk. |
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Post by ladyvalerie on Feb 8, 2022 16:45:35 GMT
I certainly agree with the speaker that words have consequences. Who can forget the former deputy Labour Leader Tom Watson hiding behind parliamentary privilege claiming there was a paedophile ring operating at the heart of Parliament and making claims that a previous prime minister was involved. Then going on to actively meddle in the police investigation by implicating Leon Brittan who despite dying from cancer was hounded by the press and media as a direct result of Watsons accusations. I don’t remember the Labour leadership making any apologies after it was all proved to be a pack of lies . Re Starmer how to handle being ambushed by a small crowd of people shouting obscenities at you look no further than Jacob Rees Mogg when he was confronted whilst walking with his young son by a group of anti Vaxxers hurling insults just thanked the police and said it was all part of political life. Those getting upset by Starmers confrontation, well as far as I can see Johnson in the last PMQ actually said he didn’t mean Starmer was directly involved in not prosecuting Savile .However Starmer had spent the last two months at PMQ’s telling Johnson that partygate was the direct responsibility of the person at the top regardless if the PM was present or not and as such being the person at the top must bare full responsibility for what happened. Johnson in his initial response had pointed out that at the time of Savile ,Starmer was the man at the Top of the CPS and the CPS had failed to prosecute Savile which is quite correct. Savile regardless of what we now know was one of the highest known celebrities in the U.K. And although there were tens of thousands of cases going through the courts at the time and obviously Starmer wouldn’t have known a fraction of these cases personally ,it does seem a little unusual that such a well known celebrity coming to light didn’t come to his attention. But he said he wasn’t aware so we have to take that as true. But even so the hot air being generated by some over a off hand comment from Johnson under pressure from Starmer no way equates with the comments that the slimy Watson made fully knowing his HoC accusations and what turned out to be lies would be reported in the press . As Lady Brittan said after the death of her husband It’s to late for Tom Watson to apologise but his attempts to distance himself from the false allegations of Carl Beech in the wake of the guilty verdict is disingenuous and untruthful. Righteous indignation doesn't have a memory. They won't be interested. One quibble with your excellent post-I don't agree that it was an offhand comment from Johnson. It was a deliberate attempt to divert the examination he was under. And the diversion he used could not have been more ill chosen-the subject of online conspiracies. It caused an apparently loyal and effective adviser who has been with him for a long time, to resign. The idiots who accosted Starmer are well known and he accidently gave them an opportunity with their anti-vax ranting . But their use of the Saville attack was bound to be linked to Johnson because he used the same one in HoC He clearly thinks he can power his way out of trouble in his party by sheer force of personality. I'm not convinced that a Con VI lead will return with him at the helm. I can only hope that the MPs remember that if you are not in power you can't change anything. “One quibble with your excellent post”. oh, Colin. I know you guys feel you’ve got to stick together.But reeely?? |
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Post by caroline on Feb 8, 2022 16:54:31 GMT
Excellent posts denouncing Turks bigotry. I understand peoples unhappiness with Tom Watson but this was not the deliberate attempt to smear an opponent. Watson was genuinely taken in and believed at the time that his campaign was right. He has apologised profusely and sincerely. Too late for the people hurt but not at all comparable to what Johnson is doing.
The smear against Starmer has worked, it will penetrate peoples consciousness and it is perceptions not facts that matter to those less politically engaged. Johnson knows exactly what he is doing and so do his defenders. It is those in his own party that say I want no part in this that I respect.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 17:03:06 GMT
colin "Righteous indignation doesn't have a memory. They won't be interested."
If this is an attempt to belittle or parody anything I said in my post, then you are completely wrong. My post was an expression of dismay and deeply felt disgust with modern Toryism. It was not about you. Relax. Wow!!! What a relief for you Batty. You can now lighten up and enjoy the rest of the evening  . |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 17:05:29 GMT
I do wish people wouldn’t copy very, very long posts and then just add a one line rebuttal of a few chosen words.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 17:09:17 GMT
It is perhaps worth showing the '100%-X' numbers from the ComRes snap poll (which would likely also include DK assuming the questions aren't 'forced binary') 31% say PM is NOT responsible for LOTO being harassed 46% 2019 CON also say this 32% say he should NOT publicly apologise to Starmer 32% say he should NOT withdraw comments 36% say politics has NOT gotten nastier in last 5yrs 1,094 adults, 8 Feb 2022 Everyone is entitled to an opinion and the above %s are I expect a lot lower in the UKPR2 'sample' (ie UKPR2 is not 'representative'). I appreciate some might want to turn UKPR2 into an 'echo chamber' where only their brand of LOC (ABCON) is accepted but be it turk, colin, myself or anyone else then please respect that we are each entitled to our opinion. If that 'opinion' triggers you then simply ignore it rather than try to drag UKPR2 into the 'cesspit'. For 'representative polling' then we have opinion polling and thank you to superted for posting some new and relevant polling that shows a considerable minority have a different view to the majority. |
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Post by mercian on Feb 8, 2022 17:09:29 GMT
I do wish people wouldn’t copy very, very long posts Yes, it's best to edit out the bits that waste space.  |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 8, 2022 17:10:15 GMT
The really depressing thing about the Johnson 'big lie' about Starmer is that it will work, at least to some degree. There will be people who had not previously been aware of this particular conspiracy theory who now are and will have new doubts. The Guardian did a vox pop in Starmer's own constituency and had no difficulty finding people who think there must be something in the allegation. The only hope is that more people are revolted by Johnson and his supporters' latest trip into the gutter than are quietly put off voting Labour because of the suspicion that "there must be something in it", so it comes out as a net loss for the liars. Link to the vox pop (IMO, a depressing read for all believers in democracy regardless of their party affiliation) www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/08/they-all-blame-each-other-little-sympathy-for-starmer-after-savile-slur |
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Post by jayblanc on Feb 8, 2022 17:17:26 GMT
More reports, this time in the Times, that Johnson might refuse to resign no matter what. There's no legal requirement that the Prime Minister has to obey his party and resign if he loses a leadership election. And the FTPA makes it very clear that the law sets out a specified route for the PM's resignation to be demanded. So it's getting closer and closer to Johnson daring his own party to support a FTPA Vote of No Confidence if they want to get rid of him.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Feb 8, 2022 17:17:35 GMT
Johnson and his supporters know exactly what they are doing - and its all about false equivalence and seeking to bring the other side down to their level in the eyes of the public. Take the Starmer and bottle of beer photo - yesterday he was totally cleared of any rule breaking by Durham police, but is been hardly reported. Nonetheless, millions of voters will have seen that photo and concluded they are all at it.
Its the same with the Savile slur-www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/08/they-all-blame-each-other-little-sympathy-for-starmer-after-savile-slurThe damage is already done - TV channels continually broadcasted what Johnson said at the time without any correction (the Speaker only got round to challenging what Johnson did the following day). For Johnson it did its job, as he knows he won’t get immediately called up on this lies and they will do the damage he intends. He won’t have any regret about that.
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barbara
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Post by barbara on Feb 8, 2022 17:19:15 GMT
For me the saddest bit of all this is the number of Tory MPs who are able to come out and spout the most perfect tosh in support of Johnson, all the while knowing what they are saying is ridiculous.
These MPs are edging down the rabbit hole that the Republican Party in the US has already fallen. They have lost their conscience, their self respect and their honesty. And what for? in order to try and save a man who is devoid of all morality and who is quite prepared to discard these MPs as soon as it suits him without even an acknowledgement. A wasted sacrifice on their part.
Once this is all over and Johnson has gone and this awful populist nightmare subsides ,how will these MPs look themselves in the face, knowing their reputation will be forever blemished by their shameless sycophancy. I simply don't understand it.
Perhaps Turk can explain.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 8, 2022 17:25:28 GMT
Sorry if this has been posted already - but we think on here about how voters will/might respond to events/scandals is less important than the voters' actual response.
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Post by ladyvalerie on Feb 8, 2022 17:29:14 GMT
@the Batster
Fully agree with your post about the incident gaining Starmer public support and sympathy.
The three minute video I posted earlier shows Starmer and Lammy with grave faces walking quietly and with dignity as they are harassed by yobs.
Tory MPs with any decency, and there are some, must be tearing their hair out. They must be thinking that if Johnson wins a VoNC they’ll be stuck with him for 12 months, at least, and what a vengeful spiteful person, they know him to be. Maybe the 1922 executive are plotting to change the rules for the leadership election.
As for Texas Turk, I always thought he was a mouthpiece for Conservative HQ but he’s turned into a pale imitation of Trump. And Colin doesn’t seem to be able to cope with Labour doing well in the polls. If I weree him I’d have a sabbatical.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 17:35:06 GMT
I do wish people wouldn’t copy very, very long posts Yes, it's best to edit out the bits that waste space.  I would never edit out your posts mercian.  |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Feb 8, 2022 17:37:48 GMT
For me the saddest bit of all this is the number of Tory MPs who are able to come out and spout the most perfect tosh in support of Johnson, all the while knowing what they are saying is ridiculous. These MPs are edging down the rabbit hole that the Republican Party in the US has already fallen. They have lost their conscience, their self respect and their honesty. And what for? in order to try and save a man who is devoid of all morality and who is quite prepared to discard these MPs as soon as it suits him without even an acknowledgement. A wasted sacrifice on their part. Once this is all over and Johnson has gone and this awful populist nightmare subsides ,how will these MPs look themselves in the face, knowing their reputation will be forever blemished by their shameless sycophancy. I simply don't understand it. Perhaps Turk can explain. I suspect it may be a 'heat of battle' thing. By that I mean when you're inside the Westminster bubble, schooled and herded by government whips, away from 'real' people, hounded by the media, having to prepare and make public appearances, having no time to call your own etc, etc your view of what's right and what's wrong can become totally distorted. And if you're intent on personal advancement the pressures become even harder and your sense of proportion more out of line with common sense, humanity and ethical choices. |
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barbara
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Post by barbara on Feb 8, 2022 17:37:59 GMT
An interesting Twitter comment by James Johnson repeated on the Guardian live blog regarding the poll about the Starmer incident last night.
"We are now in a world where the public will automatically side against the government on most things, even if they’re not that aware of the issue. This is what happens when a leader is viewed overwhelmingly negatively and their brand with the public is spent."
If that's true then my faith in the British Public might revive and Johnson will be done for, whether we have to wait for the local government elections in May or not.
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barbara
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Post by barbara on Feb 8, 2022 17:39:42 GMT
I suspect it may be a 'heat of battle' thing. By that I mean when you're inside the Westminster bubble, schooled and herded by government whips, away from 'real' people, hounded by the media, having to prepare and make public appearances, having no time to call your own etc, etc your view of what's right and what's wrong can become totally distorted. And if you're intent on personal advancement the pressures become even harder and your sense of proportion more out of line with common sense, humanity and ethical choices. You are more charitable than me and I admire you for it. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 8, 2022 17:42:02 GMT
Everyone is entitled to an opinion and the above %s are I expect a lot lower in the UKPR2 'sample' (ie UKPR2 is not 'representative'). I appreciate some might want to turn UKPR2 into an 'echo chamber' where only their brand of LOC (ABCON) is accepted but be it turk , colin , myself or anyone else then please respect that we are each entitled to our opinion. If that 'opinion' triggers you then simply ignore it rather than try to drag UKPR2 into the 'cesspit'. Just to note that I appreciate very much that RoC posters are active on the site. It would be much duller as a LoC echo chamber (although we are quite capable of disagreeing among ourselves). My concern is that the gap between RoC positions and objective reality is becoming rather too wide in UK/US. I grew up in an age where there was an intense battle of ideas between left and right (which the right essentially won under Thatcher) but we did at least all seem to be living in the same world and just having different ideas about how it should progress. Now a lot of the discussion seems to be about trying to get people to agree what is actually real and true. A specific example would be the idea that is being advanced that Johnson's current behaviour is normal, true of all current politicians and also true of previous generations too. This is so far removed from reality as to hardly need rebuttal - I find it impossible to imagine May, Cameron, Major or Thatcher using a far-right baseless conspiracy theory against the Leader of the Opposition - and yet it is being advanced here as a serious proposition. Given the right generally wins elections in this country we need a urgent change of direction from the Tories, but it doesn't feel like we are going to get it. |
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Post by mercian on Feb 8, 2022 17:44:29 GMT
Yes, it's best to edit out the bits that waste space. I would never edit out your posts mercian .  That's because 🥁 "Mercian is right" (I think that was the quote) |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 8, 2022 17:49:04 GMT
More reports, this time in the Times, that Johnson might refuse to resign no matter what. There's no legal requirement that the Prime Minister has to obey his party and resign if he loses a leadership election. And the FTPA makes it very clear that the law sets out a specified route for the PM's resignation to be demanded. So it's getting closer and closer to Johnson daring his own party to support a FTPA Vote of No Confidence if they want to get rid of him. The Queen appoints as PM the person who can command a majority in the House. Hard to see how a PM could continue if the majority of his party (plus the opposition, obviously) want him to go, even without a formal vote being held. I wonder what the Tory party, supposedly the defenders of the established order, would make of a PM that created a constitutional crisis for the 95 year old monarch? |
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Post by mercian on Feb 8, 2022 17:54:20 GMT
So it's getting closer and closer to Johnson daring his own party to support a FTPA Vote of No Confidence if they want to get rid of him. The Queen appoints as PM the person who can command a majority in the house. Hard to see how a PM could continue if the majority of his party (plus the opposition, obviously) want him to go, even without a formal vote being held. I wonder what the Tory party, supposedly the defenders of the established order, would make of a PM that created a constitutional crisis for the 95 year old monarch? As if the poor old Queen doesn't have enough to cope with, with the prats in her family (and please no-one say that's all of them, it's too easy). |
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Post by graham on Feb 8, 2022 17:55:14 GMT
It will be interesting to see what happens at PMQs tomorrow. It might be a good tactic for Starmer not to rise from his seat to ask any questions at all - and effectively make it easier for other MPs to fire bullets on his behalf. It is sometimes forgotten that until John Smith held the office in 1992 it was not exceptional for the LOTO to remain seated throughout Question Time.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 17:57:35 GMT
..edit out the bits that waste space. If you use the 'privacy' function (under 'profile') to hide certain people's posts you can save a lot of wasted space from waste of spacers |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 17:59:58 GMT
I would never edit out your posts mercian . That's because 🥁 "Mercian is right" (I think that was the quote) Partially correct - you missed “a” before ‘right’ and another word just after. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Feb 8, 2022 18:01:57 GMT
The Queen appoints as PM the person who can command a majority in the house. Hard to see how a PM could continue if the majority of his party (plus the opposition, obviously) want him to go, even without a formal vote being held. I wonder what the Tory party, supposedly the defenders of the established order, would make of a PM that created a constitutional crisis for the 95 year old monarch? As if the poor old Queen doesn't have enough to cope with, with the prats in her family (and please no-one say that's all of them, it's too easy). I don't think the prat quota in the Royal family is that different from the population in general. There are a lot of them around in all walks of life, but celebrity status seems to attract them.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 18:02:16 GMT
..edit out the bits that waste space. If you use the 'privacy' function (under 'profile') to hide certain people's posts you can save a lot of wasted space from waste of spacers No wish to hide anyone’s. Just seems daft to quote reams of words and then just wrote “rubbish” or “great”. (I exaggerate but you get the point) Anyway, I’m very touched that you don’t block my posts.  |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 8, 2022 18:02:52 GMT
As if the poor old Queen doesn't have enough to cope with, with the prats in her family (and please no-one say that's all of them, it's too easy). "Poor" seems an inappropriate descriptor for a woman who is almost as rich as Mrs Sunak! |
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Post by graham on Feb 8, 2022 18:03:23 GMT
More reports, this time in the Times, that Johnson might refuse to resign no matter what. There's no legal requirement that the Prime Minister has to obey his party and resign if he loses a leadership election. And the FTPA makes it very clear that the law sets out a specified route for the PM's resignation to be demanded. So it's getting closer and closer to Johnson daring his own party to support a FTPA Vote of No Confidence if they want to get rid of him. That must be fantasy. Were Johnson to cease to be party leader much of the Cabinet and other Ministers would resign. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 18:05:54 GMT
please respect that we are each entitled to our opinion. If that 'opinion' triggers you then simply ignore it rather than try to drag UKPR2 into the 'cesspit'. THat is good advice on this site, given the huge imbalance in political leaning and the change in membership since the Old Site. But the result tends to be two echo chambers-each talking to their own "side". Polling discussion tends to be more cross party because the folk interested in polling trends seem less interested in personal comment . |
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Post by alec on Feb 8, 2022 18:10:49 GMT
colin - "But the result tends to be two echo chambers-each talking to their own "side". " Like telling them their factually inaccurate posts are "excellent"?
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