oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on Feb 7, 2022 20:51:36 GMT
Looking at my avatar photo lined up against my post, it does look as if The Great Man is reading them. Let me know what you think Harold.
|
|
|
|
Post by barbara on Feb 7, 2022 21:14:56 GMT
graham "I was unaware that Princess Diana had done that. Good to hear." She didn't say anything publicly but I read something about her recently and that peculiar episode when Prince Charles invited Saville to act as some sort of marriage counsellor for them. She wouldn't have anything to do with it, apparently, and told everyone within the Royal Family that she couldn't stand Saville. Some classic female intuition at play, I guess. I don't think intuition as much as most women I knew, including me, knew there was something not right with him. The words 'creepy' and 'weird' were most often used. We all felt he was the type of person you would run a mile from. Nothing as specific as suspicions of paedophilia but certainly an unsavoury character. |
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on Feb 7, 2022 21:22:13 GMT
graham "I was unaware that Princess Diana had done that. Good to hear." She didn't say anything publicly but I read something about her recently and that peculiar episode when Prince Charles invited Saville to act as some sort of marriage counsellor for them. She wouldn't have anything to do with it, apparently, and told everyone within the Royal Family that she couldn't stand Saville. Some classic female intuition at play, I guess. I don't think intuition as much as most women I knew, including me, knew there was something not right with him. The words 'creepy' and 'weird' were most often used. We all felt he was the type of person you would run a mile from. Nothing as specific as suspicions of paedophilia but certainly an unsavoury character. My wife and daughter said the same thing. It would make sense for women to have developed better antennae for creep detection, given how dangerous to them some men turn out to be. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 21:34:07 GMT
graham "I was unaware that Princess Diana had done that. Good to hear." She didn't say anything publicly but I read something about her recently and that peculiar episode when Prince Charles invited Saville to act as some sort of marriage counsellor for them. She wouldn't have anything to do with it, apparently, and told everyone within the Royal Family that she couldn't stand Saville. Some classic female intuition at play, I guess. I don't think intuition as much as most women I knew, including me, knew there was something not right with him. The words 'creepy' and 'weird' were most often used. We all felt he was the type of person you would run a mile from. Nothing as specific as suspicions of paedophilia but certainly an unsavoury character. Well, I hardly ever saw him as I was usually out doing gigs in those days but - if he was ever on tv when I was around - I switched channels. Couldn’t stand him - mainly I think because his whole persona felt utterly manufactured and false. Although we don’t truly “know” people who appear regularly on tv I think some of their personality definitely comes over and you can either warm to them or be indifferent. Savile I actively disliked. |
|
|
|
Post by mandolinist on Feb 7, 2022 21:38:35 GMT
I think there is a risk that we are all falling into the trap that Johnson has set. We are discussing Saville instead of the consequences of what Johnson said.
The consequencies are clearly perilous for democracy if a Prime Minister can lie and smear with impunity. The Conservative Party must act or the party will be as debased as the Republican Party in the USA.
|
|
|
|
Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Feb 7, 2022 21:42:00 GMT
graham "I was unaware that Princess Diana had done that. Good to hear." She didn't say anything publicly but I read something about her recently and that peculiar episode when Prince Charles invited Saville to act as some sort of marriage counsellor for them. She wouldn't have anything to do with it, apparently, and told everyone within the Royal Family that she couldn't stand Saville. Some classic female intuition at play, I guess. I don't think intuition as much as most women I knew, including me, knew there was something not right with him. The words 'creepy' and 'weird' were most often used. Tbh I can't remember anyone talking about him, apart from him being seen as a bit of a joke by people my age. When it all came out it didn't come as a shock which speaks volumes I guess. |
|
|
|
Post by guymcc on Feb 7, 2022 21:55:35 GMT
I saw Saville in 2006 as I drove out of Leeds. It was a hot day and he walking a long a dual carriageway in just a pair of Speedos. He was acting with complete impunity.
There are some similarities with Johnson. He also acts with impunity and display narcissistic tendencies.
Both have basically groomed this nation.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 22:15:10 GMT
Re- Jimmy Saville. I am unclear as to his political leanings. I believe he was knighted by Thatcher but also clearly recall that he was a prominent supporter of Jeremy Thorpe and the Liberals at the February 1974 election. Oh and don't forget even though he was known to be a ganster and thug when he was a nightclub owner Ken Clarke and Edwina Currie gave him the keys to Broadmoor (where he abused everybody he could get at) purely because he preached union bashing. No due diligence and he had no relevant qualifications or clearance. Oh fuck yes, he might have been apolitical but they sure thought he was a Tory. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 22:16:24 GMT
I think this has done for Johnson, and good riddance. he just couldn't help himself.He fucked himself up.
|
|
|
|
Post by mandolinist on Feb 7, 2022 22:42:54 GMT
A further, rather unpleasant thought, has occurred to me. The crime and police bill currently before parliament would outlaw a demonstration like the one which involved protesters harassing and abusing Starmer, a perfect set up to justify the draconian measures within the bill.
|
|
|
|
Post by alec on Feb 7, 2022 23:00:02 GMT
Worth bearing in mind that the Saville comment was made to obscure and divert from Johnson's law breaking and lying.
Some comment above regarding the possibility of 'decent' Conservatives standing up to oppose such dreadful behaviour as Johnson's lies on Saville and Starmer. It feels very like where Republicans got to in the early days of Trump: no one really believed that the solid core of Republicanism would actually endorse such terrible behaviour, but they damn well did.
The decent Republicans stood down, barring a tiny handful who held out and spoke out, but the vast majority flipped and wholeheartedly backed the new normal, much like we see Nadine Dorries ding now. They adopted the same tactics, questioning objective fact as 'just your opinion' and making excuses for egregious criminal and immoral actions.
The question we need to ask is whether the British Conservative Party will follow the same path. So far, the signs are mildly encouraging: there is stiff resistance, even though it is far from a majority position. There are plenty of MPs prepared to accept what Johnson did and said was abhorrent, but there remains a fear that if the coalition of voters assembled by Johnson doesn't significantly crack, the MPs representing them will sit on their hands.
Michael Gove was notable in defending the Saville comments, other ministers have been less supportive, but none have resigned. So far, this is being led by opinion polls, which look poor but not terminal, and so the spineless on the government backbenches wait and watch.
I would be more reassured if we had clear signals that the Conservative Party won't tolerate such awful behaviour, but as with Republcans, it looks like it's how polls respond rather than morality that will determine whether the Conservative Party stays in the gutter or drags itself back towards some level of decency.
|
|
|
|
Post by mercian on Feb 7, 2022 23:05:13 GMT
Don't take this as endorsing what Johnson said, but I doubt that many voters care or know whether Starmer did or did not have a chance to prosecute Savile was it 10? years ago.
|
|
|
|
Post by alec on Feb 7, 2022 23:17:11 GMT
mercian - not really the point. It was a lie, stated in the HoC. Meanwhile, the BBC gets serious: www.bbc.co.uk/news/60245483The BBC has an editorial policy of not accusing politicians of lying, so this is as strong as they get. Stating as a fact that the PM made a false claim in the HoC is BBC speak for lying. Nobody should be defending this, or looking for smart ways to downplay what it represents.
|
|
|
|
Post by mercian on Feb 7, 2022 23:22:45 GMT
I'm just saying that I doubt it will have any effect on VI. Not downplaying or defending. Possibly there might be a blip in the polls but that will be it IMO.
|
|
|
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Feb 7, 2022 23:42:20 GMT
Thought the bit from John Lydon was interesting - increased my respect for him (Lydon) and diminished it further for the BBC. I can't help wonder if Lydon actually knew something, or if it was a guess (even a partially informed guess) that happened to be accurate. I say that as light entertainment/family entertainment presenters (amongst others) were considered fair game for punks. Lydon talking about it youtu.be/esKnWAIgpLY |
|
|
|
Post by guymcc on Feb 7, 2022 23:43:36 GMT
This might delay some Tory-Lab switchers from returning to the Tories. There seemed to be a narrowing in the polls. R&W and YouGov polls suggest that the gap has re-opened. It’s the drip, drip.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 23:58:13 GMT
Let's hope the Ukraine situation doesn't lead to Britain feeling it needs to prepare some sort of naval task force a la Falklands. Destroyers were historically small, almost expendable warships, but not these days. They are powerful, capable ships, and our six, yes six, destroyers are all in dockyard hands, mainly due to problems with their engines.
For people of a certain age, that's like having the Hood, Nelson, Rodney, King George V, Warspite and Vanguard all out of commission at the same time (and with no Repulse, Renown, Valiant and Royal Sovereign in reserve). Not a reassuring prospect.
Still, at least we can look to all the mechanical issues being resolved as soon as 2028.
|
|
|
|
Post by jen on Feb 8, 2022 2:39:23 GMT
How can you lot talk about Saville and yet ignore Mark Francois? Everybody knows what he did...
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,682
|
Post by steve on Feb 8, 2022 5:48:17 GMT
Rather thank focussing on a dead paedophile I feel that the focus should be on on our live Prime minister. Whose lies about Saville's relationship with the current leader of the opposition along with his lies that Starmer spent all his time as DPP prosecuting journalists is core here. It's those lies and the unwillingness to retract them that's taking the Tory party on a very trumpian path, they demean themselves and endanger our democratic frame work. From a party that wants to ban protesters from making any noise repeating conspiracy theory slurs in parliament is an odd approach. jen I have no time for Francois as a politician, however the allegations you presumably refer to were investigated by the police who found there was no case to answer. Saville was a multiple abuser of children and adults with dozens of known documented victims while it proved impossible to prosecute and convict him before he died his criminality is confirmed. There is no comparison between the two. |
|
|
|
Post by pete on Feb 8, 2022 5:49:29 GMT
Re- Jimmy Saville. I am unclear as to his political leanings. I believe he was knighted by Thatcher but also clearly recall that he was a prominent supporter of Jeremy Thorpe and the Liberals at the February 1974 election. Fair play to Princess Di though. She called him out straight away for the evil creep he was. She did? |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,682
|
Post by steve on Feb 8, 2022 5:56:29 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by pete on Feb 8, 2022 6:14:04 GMT
Worth bearing in mind that the Saville comment was made to obscure and divert from Johnson's law breaking and lying. Some comment above regarding the possibility of 'decent' Conservatives standing up to oppose such dreadful behaviour as Johnson's lies on Saville and Starmer. It feels very like where Republicans got to in the early days of Trump: no one really believed that the solid core of Republicanism would actually endorse such terrible behaviour, but they damn well did. The decent Republicans stood down, barring a tiny handful who held out and spoke out, but the vast majority flipped and wholeheartedly backed the new normal, much like we see Nadine Dorries ding now. They adopted the same tactics, questioning objective fact as 'just your opinion' and making excuses for egregious criminal and immoral actions. The question we need to ask is whether the British Conservative Party will follow the same path. So far, the signs are mildly encouraging: there is stiff resistance, even though it is far from a majority position. There are plenty of MPs prepared to accept what Johnson did and said was abhorrent, but there remains a fear that if the coalition of voters assembled by Johnson doesn't significantly crack, the MPs representing them will sit on their hands. Michael Gove was notable in defending the Saville comments, other ministers have been less supportive, but none have resigned. So far, this is being led by opinion polls, which look poor but not terminal, and so the spineless on the government backbenches wait and watch. I would be more reassured if we had clear signals that the Conservative Party won't tolerate such awful behaviour, but as with Republcans, it looks like it's how polls respond rather than morality that will determine whether the Conservative Party stays in the gutter or drags itself back towards some level of decency. They're quiet happy to watch kids starve or freeze so why are people surprised lies about Saville and Starmer doesn't bother them? |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,457
|
Post by Danny on Feb 8, 2022 6:29:59 GMT
By the way, NHS waiting lists are (anecdotally) much bigger than the official figures. When I worked there (admittedly some years ago) I had to go round various departments to see what training requirements they had. One lot (podiatry I think), said they had a big backlog of cases so didn't have time for training. I had a look on the computer system, and there was a fairly small waiting list so I asked why they had a problem. The podiatrist pointed to a big pile of folders. "What are they?" I asked. "They're waiting to go on the waiting list" she replied. I'm not saying that was typical, but I wouldn't be surprised. a couple of years ago someone I know had an audiology appointment at hospital, which turned up rather earlier than expected. When she enquired why, she was told it was because the booking service had gone wrong so they had been making their own patient appointments and fitted in more people. They had also been told not to do it again. I am reminded of one the troubleshooter programs, where an expert went into an NHS hospital to see how it could be made more efficient. One of his conclusions was they could reorganise and get much more throughput of patients. However this was dismissed as an idea, beause if they treated more patients there would be additional costs, not simply the staff time which was sitting there unused. So they couldnt do it within their budget. This must also reflect the issue of peak winter demand, so I guess that hospital was keeping more staff than it needed at off peak times, which it would need at peak. But couldnt afford the consumables for them to actually treat patients.
If the vast sums spent on covid lockdown whih did no good had instead been spent in the normal way on hospitals, we could have eliminated hospitals and reduced mortality. Well, we could have done that at a fraction of the cost.
|
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,457
|
Post by Danny on Feb 8, 2022 6:45:12 GMT
Worth bearing in mind that the Saville comment was made to obscure and divert from Johnson's law breaking and lying. Some comment above regarding the possibility of 'decent' Conservatives standing up to oppose such dreadful behaviour as Johnson's lies on Saville and Starmer. It feels very like where Republicans got to in the early days of Trump: no one really believed that the solid core of Republicanism would actually endorse such terrible behaviour, but they damn well did. I just had a look on the BBC website for a report of the protest to find what really happened...and there wasnt one. It had been rolled into a report of starmer being attacked over the Saville issue. However futher down it reported, "Protesters could be heard repeatedly shouting "traitor", while criticising the Labour leader for supporting Covid vaccinations and not "opposing the government". Some protesters were seen holding signs opposing mandatory vaccinations and restrictions to curb the spread of Covid." I personally would also criticise starmer and his predecessor for failing to oppose the government, first on leaving the EU and then on covid mandatory restrictions. Labour base clearly supported remain, whereas the party failed to lead a remain campaign. There is masses of evidence mandatory restrictions failed to do anything to improve the covid situation, and yet labour called for more not less. The only people opposing those restrictions have been conservative MPs. So Johnson isnt the only one guilty of trying to redirect attention. The protests were really about an incompetent opposition and a common theme of loss of our civil rights imposed by con but with labour support. The conservative MPs who opposed new restrictions before christmas have been proven right. Government is now rolling back the requirement for mandatory covid vaccinatins in health care, and despite covid cases rising again and being far higher than before christmas when extra restrictions were imposed, has cancelled most of them. They werent needed. The protestors were correct. The rebel MPs were correct. Starmer and labour got it badly wrong. |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,457
|
Post by Danny on Feb 8, 2022 6:52:41 GMT
Oh, news reported Johnson has just hired a new advisor who formerly worked for Huawei trying to persuade government not to impose restrictions on them as a Chinese company.
|
|
|
|
Post by hireton on Feb 8, 2022 7:10:04 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 7:43:40 GMT
Following discussion on need for UK to use gas as a bridge (same as EC-EU are doing) and ensure it is British O&G for British consumers, taxed in Britain, creating British jobs for British workers, etc then good to see (rumour only at this stage): Six North Sea oil and gas fields to be fired up amid Cabinet row over net zerowww.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/02/07/six-north-sea-oil-gas-fields-fired-amid-cabinet-row-net-zero/Paywall so I'll mention the six sites: Rosebank field, to the west of Shetland, and at the Jackdaw, Marigold, Brodick and Catcher sites in the central North Sea. A sixth site, Tolmount East,..It's that or even more dependent on Norwegian imports (from the same N.Sea!), Qatar and (indirectly) Russia. The Issue Specific thread being the place for more specific issue discussion (so reply to me there if you feel the need to) NB1: I'd like to see some longer-term measures to ensure we do stay on track for Net Zero. NB2: As the article suggests then Rishi is becoming more assertive, playing the CEO role, making the decisions whilst 'others' are absorbing in their own psychodrama (Boris) or 'dithering and delaying' (Kwarteng). Rishi is having to carry a lot of dead wood but 'In Rishi we trust'. |
|
|
|
Post by alec on Feb 8, 2022 7:49:29 GMT
@tw - "Following discussion on need for UK to use gas as a bridge (same as EC-EU are doing) and ensure it is British O&G for British consumers, taxed in Britain, creating British jobs for British workers, etc then good to see (rumour only at this stage):
Six North Sea oil and gas fields to be fired up amid Cabinet row over net zero"
No long ago, I suggested that the published net zero 'strategy' wasn't a comprehensive delivery methodology and didn't cut the mustard, and you responded somewhat angrily, claiming the opposite.
Here, you kindly present the evidence to demonstrate how there is no net zero delivery strategy - only a complex series of ambitions.
The above story demonstrates precisely what I was trying to warn you of.
|
|
|
|
Post by pete on Feb 8, 2022 7:59:33 GMT
See new Tweets
Conversation
Haggis_UK Flag of United Kingdom Flag of European Union
@haggis_UK
Dominic Grieve: I was Attorney General when Keir Starmer was director of public prosecutions.. & everyone knew Jimmy Savile was not his responsibility.. & when the PM tells a whopping lie that's put out by fascist right wing websites, that's a disgraceful thing to do
|
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,457
|
Post by Danny on Feb 8, 2022 8:51:38 GMT
Following discussion on need for UK to use gas as a bridge (same as EC-EU are doing) and ensure it is British O&G for British consumers, taxed in Britain, creating British jobs for British workers, etc then good to see (rumour only at this stage): Six North Sea oil and gas fields to be fired up amid Cabinet row over net zeroCon have been in power now for 12 years. Had they opened new field ten years ago they might be producing now. Do it today and who knows, might be 5 years before they are in production? Not very helpful at the moment.
The only way to have a smooth transfer to renewable fuels is for government to be heavily involved in developing them. It has refused to pay up. Industry naturally is only interested in making money, as it is doing splendidly just now. We have discussed at length the need to develop energy storage as part of a renewables strategy, but that isnt happening either.
Meanhile government making it mandatory for anyone wanting to access porn on the internet to register their name and address and credit card details available to the government. Not clear whether this is to make state control of our lives more complete, or whether its to discourage amateur porn and therefore boost the profits of the paid porn industry.
|
|
