Danny
Member
Posts: 10,366
|
Post by Danny on May 28, 2024 13:26:23 GMT
These are businesses and I would be very happy to see private education completely phased out over time. And just watch the standards of state schools falling when there are no private schools left winning all the top OFSTED grades. |
|
|
|
Post by mercian on May 28, 2024 13:39:40 GMT
If you're going to assume that all criticism of a coloured politician is racist or criticism of a female politician is misogynist, can we at least have some consistency? What about the criticism that Suella Braverman for instance gets on this board and elsewhere. Or is that different somehow? Of course it is. She is critiqued - rightly - for what she says and what she advocates. So is Abbott. |
|
|
|
Post by alberto on May 28, 2024 13:56:54 GMT
Is it? What will meaningfully change on July 5th? Silly thing to say. On the day, nothing. Over the next months and years then I expect substantial change to occur. I'm saying this 'alternative' government is very little of an alternative. There will be no great sea change. The thatcherite 'consensus' won't be rolled back. Inequality will continue to rise. Nobody will be brought to justice for the numerous corrupt excesses. None of the structural issues with our society will be tackled. We're being offered slightly less cruel, slightly less corrupt and slightly less incompetent technocratic management by the same class of privately educated career politicians working for the same capital interests as now. D:Ream's new song "things probably won't get much better" isn't likely to be a hit. |
|
|
|
Post by chrisc on May 28, 2024 13:58:49 GMT
It’s surely intentional symbolism, as their goal is to “topple” the Tories. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2024 14:00:10 GMT
You’re so full of old-fashioned prejudices that you are utterly tone deaf. I think I will give up engaging with you because you are becoming increasingly blinkered that it is quite pointless.
|
|
|
|
Post by James E on May 28, 2024 14:00:52 GMT
Mega poll alert The Redfield Wilton poll coming out later asked 12,000 people across Britain how they will vote on 4 July. Although above a certain number I'm not sure how much benefit it is to the overall Voting Intention figures. But the regional and demographic cross breaks are likely to be more informative At one time, I used to analyse R&W's cross breaks, but the figures fluctuated so wildly that I decided they were of little value - one example I remember is the Conservative vote in the West Midlands being 5% - so down 50 points from GE2019. Their most recent poll (Lab 45%, Con 23% ) with a sample of 3,700 shows the Tories' strongest strongest 'region' as Wales where they are in the lead on 40%, and the next strongest as the North East where it is a 35/35 tie. They also show swings to Labour of over 25% in the East, South West and East Midlands. Even with a larger sample, I would put less trust in their cross break figures than YouGov or Opinium. |
|
|
|
Post by chrisc on May 28, 2024 14:01:11 GMT
Surely it will be fun watching her having to comment on a Labour landslide? I suggest waiting till 10pm to make your final decision…. My reflex is to assume that Kuenssberg will try to amp up the "Possibility of a surprise come back!" in order to keep up her life long commitment to presenting politics like a football match. Like the London mayoral election. Too close to call. It’s not over till Count Binface is on the rostrum…… |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2024 14:02:13 GMT
Silly thing to say. On the day, nothing. Over the next months and years then I expect substantial change to occur. I'm saying this 'alternative' government is very little of an alternative. There will be no great sea change. The thatcherite 'consensus' won't be rolled back. Inequality will continue to rise. Nobody will be brought to justice for the numerous corrupt excesses. None of the structural issues with our society will be tackled. We're being offered slightly less cruel, slightly less corrupt and slightly less incompetent technocratic management by the same class of privately educated career politicians working for the same capital interests as now. D:Ream's new song "things probably won't get much better" isn't likely to be a hit. Gosh, let’s hope you’re right. It would be so depressing for you if things really did improve wouldn’t it? |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,577
|
Post by pjw1961 on May 28, 2024 14:02:31 GMT
You’re so full of old-fashioned prejudices that you are utterly tone deaf. I think I will give up engaging with you because you are becoming increasingly blinkered that it is quite pointless. Is that generally addressed to the forum or anyone in particular? |
|
jib
Member
Posts: 3,009
Member is Online
|
Post by jib on May 28, 2024 14:04:20 GMT
Not when the “public judgments” are wild nonsense. Now ‘end of’. She's the one who wanted to be a politician. Politics is all about perception, and I assure the man and woman on the street came to their own perceived conclusion on Ms Abbot. |
|
|
|
Post by graham on May 28, 2024 14:08:10 GMT
Re - Diane Abbott - This increasingly appears to be a blatantly racist witch hunt. If she is not allowed to stand, I hope she publicly condemns Starmer as a racist - as evidenced by the double standards apparent from his embrace of Elphicke into the party. She should make herself available to the broadcasters every day right up to July 4th. While I agree that there are double standards re-embracing Elphicke and, as I have said before, this worries me in regard to the future direction and values of Labour...and I also agree that Diane Abbot has been mistreated, I don't believe it has anything to do with race and everything to do with her closeness to Corbyn. There are plenty of cases where racism - and sexism - has played a central part in the abuse that Diane Abbot has got - and continues to get. This is not one of them. Mistreatment, yes, racism, no. I also have to say that false allegations of racism only hinder cases where racism exists. Fighting racism is something we should all be doing, it is about equality and justice. It is not a 'card' to be played. While I wrote this post with my member hat on, wearing my *** ADMIN *** hat, I have to say that such false allegations are not something that I want to see on here. I chose my words quite carefully in that there is a clear distinction - or there would be in a courtroom - between 'appears to be ' and 'is'.
I myself have no reason to describe Starmer as a 'racist' - but Diane Abbott might have given how she has been treated and what has been said and done behind the scenes. She was deprived of the Whip for a specific reason - ie having written an article alleged by some to be antisemitic.She has faced the rigour of an extended disciplinary process which ended last December. Further to that she has complied with what was asked of her. The reason given for her suspension from the PLP no longer applies, and it now becomes reasonable to ask why the Whip has not been restored. Failure to produce a straight answer to that will generate suspicions as to the real underlying motives at work here. Diane Abbott did not lose the Whip on account of her membership of the Campaign Group or her closeness to Corbyn. Starmer has it within his power to resolve this - assuming he has the will to do so.
|
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,577
|
Post by pjw1961 on May 28, 2024 14:08:44 GMT
Silly thing to say. On the day, nothing. Over the next months and years then I expect substantial change to occur. I'm saying this 'alternative' government is very little of an alternative. There will be no great sea change. The thatcherite 'consensus' won't be rolled back. Inequality will continue to rise. Nobody will be brought to justice for the numerous corrupt excesses. None of the structural issues with our society will be tackled. We're being offered slightly less cruel, slightly less corrupt and slightly less incompetent technocratic management by the same class of privately educated career politicians working for the same capital interests as now. D:Ream's new song "things probably won't get much better" isn't likely to be a hit. Are you sure about the privately educated bit? A quick google search came up with articles that: "only 4 members of the shadow cabinet went to private schools" and "Labour's cabinet would be the most state-educated since 1945" inews.co.uk/news/politics/four-members-shadow-cabinet-private-schools-labour-vat-fees-2643591www.economist.com/britain/2023/07/06/labours-cabinet-would-be-britains-most-state-educated-since-1945 |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2024 14:10:36 GMT
mercian You’re so full of old-fashioned prejudices that you are utterly tone deaf. I think I will give up engaging with you because you are becoming increasingly blinkered that it is quite pointless. |
|
|
|
Post by chrisc on May 28, 2024 14:12:39 GMT
Silly thing to say. On the day, nothing. Over the next months and years then I expect substantial change to occur. I'm saying this 'alternative' government is very little of an alternative. There will be no great sea change. The thatcherite 'consensus' won't be rolled back. Inequality will continue to rise. Nobody will be brought to justice for the numerous corrupt excesses. None of the structural issues with our society will be tackled. We're being offered slightly less cruel, slightly less corrupt and slightly less incompetent technocratic management by the same class of privately educated career politicians working for the same capital interests as now. D:Ream's new song "things probably won't get much better" isn't likely to be a hit. Remind me again how many top Labour politicians are privately educated? Of the big 4, only Starmer spent any time in a private school and that’s only because his school changed status after he arrived. I suspect, like me, his place was still state funded as he had started as a state pupil. And he certainly isn’t a career politician. I admire your passion - and indeed you may ne right that little will change - but facts matter. If Labour win there is no doubt the % of cabinet ministers that were privately educated will plummet . Or were you referring to the Civil Service “blob” rather than the Politicians? There you might have more of a point. |
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,127
|
Post by domjg on May 28, 2024 14:20:00 GMT
Silly thing to say. On the day, nothing. Over the next months and years then I expect substantial change to occur. I'm saying this 'alternative' government is very little of an alternative. There will be no great sea change. The thatcherite 'consensus' won't be rolled back. Inequality will continue to rise. Nobody will be brought to justice for the numerous corrupt excesses. None of the structural issues with our society will be tackled. We're being offered slightly less cruel, slightly less corrupt and slightly less incompetent technocratic management by the same class of privately educated career politicians working for the same capital interests as now. D:Ream's new song "things probably won't get much better" isn't likely to be a hit. Unless you think re-introducing surestart which made suuuch a difference to so many is nothing, re-aligning with the EU economically and diplomatically is nothing, no longer being in hock to those seeking solely to enrich their mates is nothing, no longer listening to a govt minister coming up with the most awful racist, anti foreigner dog whistles is nothing, having a party committed to the rule of law is nothing, no refugee being flown to Rwanda is nothing, re-nationalisation of rail is nothing, investment in education and health is nothing, having a govt consisting mainly of competent people actually wanting to make a difference is nothing etc etc etc etc. I've no doubt there'll be much else besides but that'll do for starters. Structural change needs to be gradual and you need to take people with you, to be in govt to be able to do it and not just pontificate, or do you want a revolution, burn it all down? Or maybe you just like talking and feeling holier than thou. Very teenager |
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,392
Member is Online
|
Post by neilj on May 28, 2024 14:22:12 GMT
I'm saying this 'alternative' government is very little of an alternative. There will be no great sea change. The thatcherite 'consensus' won't be rolled back. Inequality will continue to rise. Nobody will be brought to justice for the numerous corrupt excesses. None of the structural issues with our society will be tackled. We're being offered slightly less cruel, slightly less corrupt and slightly less incompetent technocratic management by the same class of privately educated career politicians working for the same capital interests as now. D:Ream's new song "things probably won't get much better" isn't likely to be a hit. Are you sure about the privately educated bit? A quick google search came up with articles that: "only 4 members of the shadow cabinet went to private schools" and "Labour's cabinet would be the most state-educated since 1945" inews.co.uk/news/politics/four-members-shadow-cabinet-private-schools-labour-vat-fees-2643591www.economist.com/britain/2023/07/06/labours-cabinet-would-be-britains-most-state-educated-since-1945Agree, I would also add the narrative that the tories and Labour under Star are all the same, is often a feature of momentum and some other left wing groups. Reform makes similar charges, perhaps unsurprisingly In reality Labour want to roll back the antitrade Union legislation, tories want to go even further Tories want even further checks on free speech and protest, Labour don't Labour want to Nationalise the train operating companies, tories don't Labour want a state owned Green Energy Company, tories don't Labour want to tax non-doms, tories want to give them loopholes Labour want to tax excess profits from energy companies, tories want to give more loopholes Labour want a fairer tax system, tories want to scrap Inheritance tax I could go on, but no the tories and Labour are not the same Yes money is going to be tight over the next couple of years, but I trust Labour to spend what little money there is in the right place rather than the tories tax giveaways to the rich |
|
|
|
Post by mark61 on May 28, 2024 14:37:53 GMT
With regards Ms Abbott I think quite a few LoC people are supportive and protective of her because of what she has endured at the hands of Bigots and Racists over many years, to a degree egged on by the usual Suspects in the press.
Having said that she does not have an impressive record as an MP as far as I can see, and it was painfully obvious she was out of her depth when made shadow Home secretary by Corbyn.( Starmer and Cooper v Corbyn and Abbot!) I didn't think it looked good when she cosied up to Portillo on the The TV.
So what do the Labour leadership do, she is not an Electoral asset, but neither are many others, she will not hold any ministerial office moving forward, do you restore the whip as an olive branch to the Left of the party or dare her to stand as an independent no doubt criticising the leadership, but thus making the point how Labour has changed.
I wonder whether she would be receptive to the idea that she has had a good run and it's time to let someone younger have a go, she is 71 now and has been in the Commons since 1987. Somehow I doubt it. Some MP's do act like they are entitled to run and run.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimjam on May 28, 2024 14:56:35 GMT
Re R&W, for me their most helpful cross-break is usually Tory 2019 voters and especially the number of direct switchers to Labour.
I am with James E that the DK adjusters are probably closer to the underlying position so a Lab win by 15% ish if there is no change in VI amongst 'decided' voters.
Some self-declared decided voters, though, will change their minds and the Tories need to recover some direct switchers to close the gap to a more 'manageable' loss.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2024 14:56:51 GMT
So, police drop Angela Rayner investigation. What a disgraceful waste of time and money.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2024 15:00:05 GMT
Structural change needs to be gradual and you need to take people with you, to be in govt to be able to do it and not just pontificate, or do you want a revolution, burn it all down? Or maybe you just like talking and feeling holier than thou. Very teenager Where as name calling and insults are the mature response.  Well said - the most appalling, gratuitous insults I’ve ever read here…  |
|
|
|
Post by Old Southendian on May 28, 2024 15:02:12 GMT
Agree, I would also add the narrative that the tories and Labour under Star are all the same, is often a feature of momentum and some other left wing groups. Reform makes similar charges, perhaps unsurprisingly In reality Labour want to.... I'd also add that I think this claim is one of the (often contradictory) arguments made by a lot of Tory supporting media too, in the hope that people will think there's no point in changing to Labour, since they're no different/better. Another case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. The opposition are either raging socialists, or Tory-lite, either way, you're better off with the devil you know. Don't fall for it. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2024 15:03:03 GMT
Very droll that Sunak is claiming that a putative reduction in tax for pensioners of under £2 per week offers “dignity in retirement.”
|
|
|
|
Post by crossbat11 on May 28, 2024 15:04:17 GMT
So, police drop Angela Rayner investigation. What a disgraceful waste of time and money. What on earth is Laura Kuennsberg going to ask every Labour politician now?? |
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,392
Member is Online
|
Post by neilj on May 28, 2024 15:06:17 GMT
So, police drop Angela Rayner investigation. What a disgraceful waste of time and money. What on earth is Laura Kuennsberg going to ask every Labour politician now?? Thoughts and prayers for her and Dan Hodges at this difficult time |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2024 15:07:40 GMT
Well said - the most appalling, gratuitous insults I’ve ever read here… So, you accept that the conversation degenerated and not by me. Thanks Crofty. Certainly do Alby. I was shocked. Deeply shocked .  |
|
|
|
Post by jen on May 28, 2024 15:07:54 GMT
Abbott is (in my opinion) an idiot and useless. She has, however, endured a lot of criticism that was clearly racist and misogynist.
Braverman is (in my opinion) an idiot and useless. She is furthermore a serial liar and a racist (according to the law of the land), that is not an opinion, it is a fact, and if you disagree, look stuff up.
Naturally, any out and out bigot will try to support Braverman by equating the cases.
A bit like how Kuenssberg counters any accusations of (blatantly obvious) far-right bias by playing the sexism card.
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,649
|
Post by steve on May 28, 2024 15:09:06 GMT
Police to take no further action over Angela Rayner allegations – UK politics live.
What will the daily mail put on pages 1-8 now!
|
|
|
|
Post by crossbat11 on May 28, 2024 15:09:57 GMT
Where as name calling and insults are the mature response. Well said - the most appalling, gratuitous insults a I’ve ever read here… Yes, in the UKPR lexicon of name-calling and insults, I'd say "very teenager" was amongst the mildest and most inoffensive I've seen. I suppose offence is in the eye of the beholder and depends very much on the identity of the insulter and the recipient of the insult. P.S. For example, Colin rather approved of nickp's description of me as a cunt for having the temerity to question his (nickp's) views on Ben Stokes' momentous decision to declare early in an Ashes Test Match last summer. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2024 15:11:05 GMT
steve You’re late with both news and comment. See me after school. jen Well said, on both counts.
|
|
patrickbrian
Member
These things seem small and undistinguishable, like far off mountains turned into clouds
Posts: 316
|
Post by patrickbrian on May 28, 2024 15:11:21 GMT
Once they've made them up, people hate changing their minds, don't they? I see it on this site all the time! But among my friends too, and I don't expect I'm any different. It seems to me many people have bought into the idea the Starmer is over-cautious and right wing, and that in any case politicians are 'all the same', and there's not much he can do to change that before the election. Also that the Tories are a rabble and Rishi lacks 'authenticity' (Can't imagine the cops coming round tohis house if he has an argument with his missis, can you?) So, unlike 2017, where many people hadn't quite had to time to decide about Corbyn, and were pleasantly surprised, I don't expect the polls to change much in the next six weeks. Which ones are accurate in the first place is another question.
But I'm probably wrong. I usually am.
Change of government does seem like a certainty though now.
|
|
