pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on May 26, 2024 22:14:23 GMT
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Post by jib on May 26, 2024 22:15:04 GMT
No, no , no! Sunak stitched up the Parliamentary inquiry to get him out of Parliament. Johnson should have done the Major trick of calling a confidence vote by resigning in the summer 2022. So another great lost leader, brought down only by the plotting of his colleagues, not by any personal shortcomings - Johnson and Corbyn could form a club. Your take on the privileges committee is bonkers. Just a reminder: "The Committee found that Boris Johnson had deliberately misled the House and “committed a serious contempt of the House.”" commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9554/The dogs were dispatched to take out the rogue Stag. Very cruel, very Tory. History now. And a stroll into No10 election for Starmer. I'm happy with that. |
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Post by mercian on May 26, 2024 22:17:39 GMT
To anyone who says "Sunak can't do anything", I can only point to him having been able to unite this whole board in saying "what a stupid idea!" on the whole subject of conscription. Out of interest, is there a single person here who thinks it's a good idea? It's highly unlikely to happen, and of course there's no detail because of that, but in principle getting young people to give up a bit of time to help the community in various ways has something to commend it. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2024 22:18:49 GMT
Nope - Porters constantly interact with patients. it is essential that they receive training in child safeguarding, adult safeguarding, mental health awareness, dementia awareness and a whole raft of other things including (sorry mercian) diversity and equality training. All takes time and money. Not something for people working the odd weekend. Porters are a vital part of the hospital team. They are indeed important but do you really need all that training to push a wheelchair from point A to point B? All they would need in reality if you strip away all the bureaucratic nonsense is a map of the hospital and a panic button if something happens that they can't handle. Jolly good. Shame you hadn’t been in charge when I was in hospital last week. That would have been a comfort. |
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Post by bedknobsandboomstick on May 26, 2024 22:22:52 GMT
Nope - Porters constantly interact with patients. it is essential that they receive training in child safeguarding, adult safeguarding, mental health awareness, dementia awareness and a whole raft of other things including (sorry mercian) diversity and equality training. All takes time and money. Not something for people working the odd weekend. Porters are a vital part of the hospital team. They are indeed important but do you really need all that training to push a wheelchair from point A to point B? All they would need in reality if you strip away all the bureaucratic nonsense is a map of the hospital and a panic button if something happens that they can't handle. Now then, now then, now then. No one volunteering as a hospital porter could ever turn out to be, say a dangerous sexual predator. How's about that then? |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on May 26, 2024 22:22:54 GMT
Nope - Porters constantly interact with patients. it is essential that they receive training in child safeguarding, adult safeguarding, mental health awareness, dementia awareness and a whole raft of other things including (sorry mercian) diversity and equality training. All takes time and money. Not something for people working the odd weekend. Porters are a vital part of the hospital team. They are indeed important but do you really need all that training to push a wheelchair from point A to point B? All they would need in reality if you strip away all the bureaucratic nonsense is a map of the hospital and a panic button if something happens that they can't handle. There is a lot more to the role than that - for example moving toxic and hazardous waste around, which is not a job for the untrained. The NHS is geared up to provide the necessary training but not for random 18 year old's turning up for the occasional weekend. Positively dangerous. "Typical day-to-day responsibilities of a hospital porter Porters work in all areas of a hospital. They move supplies around the facility to deliver them to the required locations. They also ensure patients are in the right place at the right time. Porters may have specific job titles, such as kitchen porter or operating theatre porter, depending on where they work in the hospital. Certain porter roles have unique job responsibilities, like tidying outdoor areas or gritting outdoor surfaces in cold weather. Items porters may move around a hospital include: hospital bed linen patients in wheelchairs or trolleys patient samples, such as blood samples waste, possibly including biological waste cylinders of oxygen and other gas (e.g. anaesthetic gas) parcels and post food and drink deceased patients, respectfully moving their bodies to the hospital mortuary Porters may also have cleaning duties at the hospital. Some drive around the hospital or between sites. As part of the estates team, porters typically interact with a mix of clinical and non-clinical personnel. These include nurses and laboratory staff or members of the estates team like security personnel and housekeepers. Porters can work a mix of full-time or part-time hours and may do shift work, including early mornings, evenings or weekends." uk.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/hospital-porter-job-description |
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Post by mercian on May 26, 2024 22:30:55 GMT
I wonder if that's because around a third of them weren't born here? Golly I'm still about 6 pages behind. Brace yourselves folks you've been busy today. I have a life outside this board so have to do some heavy catching-up sometimes. |
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Post by mercian on May 26, 2024 22:32:44 GMT
When Labour post victory has to face the Brexit sized elephant in the room they will be doing so when just 2 of their 400+ mps supported leave. There's no opposition to rolling back the catastrophe other than those the Labour leadership impose on themselves. And the EU. |
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Post by RAF on May 26, 2024 22:38:02 GMT
mercian said: "Although she's not in uniform I'd be much more scared of Maggie. She looks like a warrior queen whereas Truss looks like a kid playing dress-up. Where did these silly ideas of politicians having to pretend they can do certain trades, or enjoy a pint or a bacon sandwich when they're on campaign come from? I suppose there's always been an element of being seen to be campaigning ever since photography was invented, but it seems to have descended into farce now. It's like watching The Generation Game which (just in case there's anyone too young to remember) involved contestants trying to copy professionals at some task. No-one cares whether Sunak can lay bricks or Miliband eat a bacon sandwich or any number of politicians able to drink beer without grimacing. It's just an opportunity to look stupid. Starmer seems to have avoided most of this nonsense so far in his usual cautious way, so well done him." It's something we only really see with leaders that lack charisma. Thatcher, Blair and Johnson didn't need to do it. The ones you mention felt they did.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2024 22:41:49 GMT
I don’t think Ed Miliband ate a sandwich for any other reason that he was hungry FFS.
Johnson stuck up a rope during the Olympics was another thing altogether..
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Post by mercian on May 26, 2024 22:42:24 GMT
I have to say that I find the conduct of election campaigns to be very uninspiring nowadays indeed - it comes across as thoroughly contrived and banal and probably fails to engage most of the electorate.I accept that this has been the case for thirty years or so now. It would be so much better to return to the era of mass public meetings addressed by the party leaders and senior figures. I fondly recall the 1964 and 1966 election campaigns with Harold Wilson being so effective when dealing with the hecklers seeking to interrupt him. George Brown was also good - as on the Tory side were Ted Heath and Quintin Hogg. Those meetings appeared so much more meaningful than the rubbish we are now presented with.I do wonder whether the fall in turnout at GEs owes somethng to the switch to reliance on pure marketing /advertising techniques rather than having public debate and argument directly with the voters. I agree entirely, although public meetings can be dangerous for politicians. www.search.birminghamimages.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=7496&ThemeID=621 |
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Post by mercian on May 26, 2024 22:48:37 GMT
The issue though that really gets to me is antisemitism. If the party really was becoming antisemitic, then that would be grounds for opposing him, even perhaps at cost of the nightmare. Some said Corbyn himself was antisemitic (Margaret Hodge, in expletives made behind the Speaker's Chair during voting), some said Labour was no longer a 'safe place' for Jews (64 Labour Lords in a full-page Guardian advert), staffers complained bitterly about alleged antisemitism (Panorama programme), MPs resigned over antisemitism claims to form a new party, Tony Blair declared that antisemitism was 'killing' the Labour Party (to the Board of Deputies a week after the GE 2019 was called). Who on earth would vote for this shambles? I have spent a very great deal of time looking at this disturbing matter over the last five years but can find nothing to substantiate the claims, yet they brought great harm to the Labour Party and indeed to Jewish communities generally. I find it very repugnant. Were all those people wrong? Could the fact that a large majority of Muslim voters usually vote Labour have had something to do with it? I don't know the proportion of members who are Muslim. |
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oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
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Post by oldnat on May 26, 2024 22:51:00 GMT
Anent that chart - correlation is not the same as causation. Careful - you might get called sonny as well next. Which is, of course, dead scary.😧 |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2024 22:59:16 GMT
Careful - you might get called sonny as well next. Which is, of course, dead scary.😧 I go to a nice local bookshop/cafe occasionally for a latte and the forty something boss always greets me with “How are you young man.” Which is nice….. (the latte is excellent as well.) |
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Post by mercian on May 26, 2024 23:05:22 GMT
It's tiresome that Labour supporters lack any ambition for what their government might be capable of. Maybe they could offer a real socialist alternative if the Liberals/Lib Dems/SDP hadn't split the progressive anti-tory vote since the 70s. So you think that other 'progressive' parties with their own views and policies should just stand aside to give Labour a free run? Dream on. Now who's out of touch with the voters? Even if that did happen an alternative 'progressive' party would soon emerge because not all 'progressives' are socialists.. |
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Post by EmCat on May 26, 2024 23:15:34 GMT
The 18-24 group has, according to a YouGov poll, only 9% support for the Conservatives. Maybe they are playing some kind of psychological games - disgust that group enough that they won't bother voting at all. However, with the recent polling on intention to vote showing an increase for that age group, it looks more like encouraging them to vote - but for any other party. Perhaps their campaign team really are infiltrators from other political parties, as some have (tongue in cheek) suggestedMy suggestion wasn't tongue in cheek. I was genuinely wondering. It's not impossible. I was actually thinking of "A Different Bias", who did suggest "Sunak's Campaign Run by Labour Spies" www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri9kB3X-hrY |
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Post by mercian on May 26, 2024 23:16:42 GMT
Didn't labour split the anti tory vote around 1900? Largely no, since the Liberals and Labour effectively had an electoral pact pre-WW1. Most Labour seats were mining areas and the parties were rarely in direct competition. It was the enfranchisement of all men in 1917, meaning that working class men could finally vote in significant numbers everywhere, that enabled Labour to strike out on their own. OK, so Labour split the anti-Tory vote in 1920 then. It doesn't change Danny's substantive point which was in response to someone who thought other 'progressive' parties should stand aside for Labour. |
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oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
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Post by oldnat on May 26, 2024 23:24:59 GMT
Sunak's suggestion, that 18 year olds who don't do National Service should be forever banned from public sector jobs, reminded me of something, but I couldn't remember what.
Then it came to me - it's the plot of "Starship Troopers"!
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Post by laszlo4new on May 26, 2024 23:35:03 GMT
I had access to some raw polling data (it is not fake). It is not really representative (because of my access), so some caution is required. I used Boolean maths for it - I cannot really believe it. Conservatives at 105 MPs.
It would be nice to have more raw data, but it is unlikely (it is quite expensive). Still, we will see.
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Post by mercian on May 26, 2024 23:35:53 GMT
I think the Conservatives have a very good chance of holding Chelmsford on an evenly split Labour/Lib Dem vote; quite possibly a Tory vote as low as 34% will be enough to win. I would also expect the Tories to hold Chichester. South Cambridgeshire should go Lib Dem - Ed Davey was campaigning there today. Exactly. Classic splitters. They are really offering nothing different/better than Labour, just splitting the vote. Frankly they make me sick. I assume this is a humorous reference to the famous scene in 'Life of Brian'? Otherwise I feel a mixture of sadness and amusement at this sort of partisanship. It's akin to a rabid football fan who thinks his team can do no wrong and that their local rivals are the embodiment of evil. Surely it's better to acknowledge that no political party will exactly match your own views and to vote for the one that is closest at the time of the election? They all have some good and bad ideas and it's a question of balancing it all. That's why I rarely finally make up my mind who to vote for until I'm in the polling booth. |
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Post by guymonde on May 26, 2024 23:48:16 GMT
Very occasionally, an extremely old lady might refer to me as "son". That always pleases me. I go to a nice local bookshop/cafe occasionally for a latte and the forty something boss always greets me with “How are you young man.” Which is nice….. (the latte is excellent as well.) I had a boss many years ago when I was a very 'umble assistant, and he always called me Tiger. I was flattered and left his office feeling proud. After a while, I noticed he called others Tiger. Eventually I realised he used this name when he had forgotten yours. Good plan for someone with a flawed memory. I therefore use the same technique as your barista employs. For women of any age I prefer 'Young Miss' |
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Post by mercian on May 26, 2024 23:57:57 GMT
The natural conclusion that lends itself, therefore, is.... Are they delibarately trying to lose? If the answer is yes, the next question has to be....is there something coming down the line that they know about but we don't - and if so, what? WWIII? |
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Post by mercian on May 27, 2024 0:04:37 GMT
Fag packet maths on The Policy: 30 million voters turning out; 24% Conservative vote share =7.2m Tory voters 8m households with children in the UK. Say 14m parents including some single parent families. Say 60% turnout for a 25 to 55ish age range. = 8.4m parents voting. Say 18% of that age range intend to vote Con = 1.5m parents voting Tory who are now worried that their offspring are at risk on compulsary service. That's 5% of total voters or 20% of the Tory vote share who are now suddenly a lot less likely to vote Tory. Happy to be corrected on any erroneous numbers above. I don't think all parents would necessarily be against their offspring doing some thing to help the NHS for instance. Indeed it might even persuade a few undecided voters to vote Tory because they have feckless children. I'm not challenging your maths, or giving unquestioned support to the policy, just questioning your assumptions. |
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Post by mercian on May 27, 2024 0:16:44 GMT
They are indeed important but do you really need all that training to push a wheelchair from point A to point B? All they would need in reality if you strip away all the bureaucratic nonsense is a map of the hospital and a panic button if something happens that they can't handle. Now then, now then, now then. No one volunteering as a hospital porter could ever turn out to be, say a dangerous sexual predator. How's about that then?  Good point, but wouldn't Mr Savile have done all the training required at the time, and even if he didn't would it have made any difference? |
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Post by mercian on May 27, 2024 0:23:34 GMT
They are indeed important but do you really need all that training to push a wheelchair from point A to point B? All they would need in reality if you strip away all the bureaucratic nonsense is a map of the hospital and a panic button if something happens that they can't handle. There is a lot more to the role than that - for example moving toxic and hazardous waste around, which is not a job for the untrained. The NHS is geared up to provide the necessary training but not for random 18 year old's turning up for the occasional weekend. Positively dangerous. "Typical day-to-day responsibilities of a hospital porter Porters work in all areas of a hospital. They move supplies around the facility to deliver them to the required locations. They also ensure patients are in the right place at the right time. Porters may have specific job titles, such as kitchen porter or operating theatre porter, depending on where they work in the hospital. Certain porter roles have unique job responsibilities, like tidying outdoor areas or gritting outdoor surfaces in cold weather. Items porters may move around a hospital include: hospital bed linen patients in wheelchairs or trolleys patient samples, such as blood samples waste, possibly including biological waste cylinders of oxygen and other gas (e.g. anaesthetic gas) parcels and post food and drink deceased patients, respectfully moving their bodies to the hospital mortuary Porters may also have cleaning duties at the hospital. Some drive around the hospital or between sites. As part of the estates team, porters typically interact with a mix of clinical and non-clinical personnel. These include nurses and laboratory staff or members of the estates team like security personnel and housekeepers. Porters can work a mix of full-time or part-time hours and may do shift work, including early mornings, evenings or weekends." uk.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/hospital-porter-job-descriptionOk, so just restrict these conscripts to doing the very basic stuff. It's not rocket science. Someone doing a few weekends a year doesn't need to be fully trained in every conceivable aspect of the job. I doubt very much if the NHS is capable of inventing a new role of say 'apprentice trolley pusher' without a couple of years of consultations but in principle it should be a piece of whatsisname. (We've had enough vulgarity on here for one day). |
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Post by mercian on May 27, 2024 0:27:33 GMT
mercian said: "Although she's not in uniform I'd be much more scared of Maggie. She looks like a warrior queen whereas Truss looks like a kid playing dress-up. Where did these silly ideas of politicians having to pretend they can do certain trades, or enjoy a pint or a bacon sandwich when they're on campaign come from? I suppose there's always been an element of being seen to be campaigning ever since photography was invented, but it seems to have descended into farce now. It's like watching The Generation Game which (just in case there's anyone too young to remember) involved contestants trying to copy professionals at some task. No-one cares whether Sunak can lay bricks or Miliband eat a bacon sandwich or any number of politicians able to drink beer without grimacing. It's just an opportunity to look stupid. Starmer seems to have avoided most of this nonsense so far in his usual cautious way, so well done him." It's something we only really see with leaders that lack charisma. Thatcher, Blair and Johnson didn't need to do it. The ones you mention felt they did. I agree up to a point, but Maggie posing in a tank, and Starmer so far mostly avoiding that stuff contradicts your theory, which would seem to imply that Starmer has charisma and Maggie didn't. |
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Post by mercian on May 27, 2024 0:29:57 GMT
Very occasionally, an extremely old lady might refer to me as "son". That always pleases me. I go to a nice local bookshop/cafe occasionally for a latte and the forty something boss always greets me with “How are you young man.” Which is nice….. (the latte is excellent as well.) She has a good line in sarcasm. |
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Post by mercian on May 27, 2024 0:43:11 GMT
My suggestion wasn't tongue in cheek. I was genuinely wondering. It's not impossible. I was actually thinking of "A Different Bias", who did suggest "Sunak's Campaign Run by Labour Spies" www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri9kB3X-hrYThanks for that link. The presenter obviously has an agenda but he did make some valid points. I missed the bit where he suggested what you say however. |
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Post by expatr on May 27, 2024 1:08:12 GMT
A thought occured to me. While my own bias may lead to seeing it more, it seems that, only a few days in, the tories have made more gaffes than any party would ever make during the whole campaign. The thing is this...they are not stupid...well, not all of them...and whatever else you think of him, Sunak certainly isn't. "Oh, but, he's not good at campaigning..." - not even Theresa May made this many obvious gaffes. The natural conclusion that lends itself, therefore, is.... Are they delibarately trying to lose? If the answer is yes, the next question has to be....is there something coming down the line that they know about but we don't - and if so, what? I'm afraid they really are....just incompetent. The BoJo steadies the ship but as soon as the rats threw him overboard.....  I think Sunak is probably intelligent in a very specific way but really doesn't have any political skills. This is bad but surmountable provided the campaign staff are battle hardened veterans (national or local) as both Labour and the Lib Dems have this time round. What happens when you have tanked for two years like the Tories have is that the battle-hardened veterans think "nah" and your are left with the sort of idiotic 12 year old filmed in the Sean Bailey Christmas party video (in fact I would bet that a lot of those actual people are in the bunker. Look at the terrible "Britain is the second most powerful nation on earth" poster - they are too callow, too dense, and too entitled to learn so keep cocking up. Even the very biased press can't save them |
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Post by expatr on May 27, 2024 1:15:07 GMT
The 18-24 group has, according to a YouGov poll, only 9% support for the Conservatives. Maybe they are playing some kind of psychological games - disgust that group enough that they won't bother voting at all. However, with the recent polling on intention to vote showing an increase for that age group, it looks more like encouraging them to vote - but for any other party. Perhaps their campaign team really are infiltrators from other political parties, as some have (tongue in cheek) suggestedMy suggestion wasn't tongue in cheek. I was genuinely wondering. It's not impossible. Fair enough but anything patient facing would require training
SO you are left with not very much - Laundry maybe, kitchen portering, possibly a bit of driving (but what would 18 year olds doing lots of driving to the car insurance bill for the NHS?) This really is one where as soon as you look at the practicalities it collapses
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Good point, but wouldn't Mr Savile have done all the training required at the time, and even if he didn't would it have made any difference?