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Post by jen on Aug 10, 2023 3:06:02 GMT
Why? I get that you dislike the Scots, and in particular campaigners for Scottish freedom, for being, in general, socially progressive. But why would you expect that? Not at all - I am actually fond of the Scots and see them as compatriots rather than foreigners. Psephologically ,however, I suspect that the prospect of Labour being likely to oust the Tories nationally across GB will swing a fair proprtion of recent SNP supporters behind Labour. I also strongly suspect that there has been a significant decline in the salience of Independence as an issue and that the new First Minister will not prove impressive during a GE campaign. I am glad that you are fond of the Scots although, in general, our social values are totally at odds with yours. Why do you think the constitutional question is no longer an issue in Scotland? Surely recent polling shows otherwise? What are your specific criticisms of the new First Minister? Have you ever been to Scotland? Do you have any current contact with Scotland? Or is your opinion based on "reports" from the English press? |
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Post by jen on Aug 10, 2023 3:15:50 GMT
* Has anyone on UKPR2 actually found a post of yours that was actually 'racist'? Not that they've said. However their definitions of the word may differ from mine. I won't go into detail. I'd appreciate it if we let this dog lie. There will never be agreement and it makes Mark 's life difficult. They can think what they like, but of course they will be wrong. "gyppo" enough said? Don't get me started on the trans cack. You are an anti-British bigot, and to be quite honest, I don't understand why you don't fuck off to Russia, Putin loves people like you, he even funded your political cause. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 10, 2023 5:14:13 GMT
It's lovely to have Jen back with us.
In the knowledge that somewhere there's a street corner missing the person who stands and shouts at passing cars.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 10, 2023 5:17:48 GMT
eorThe polling reference was from Farron Cousins at Ring of Fire, I didn't actually bother to cross check as he's normally reliable. Still a win for democracy is a win for democracy.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 10, 2023 5:36:55 GMT
mercianI really fail to see any relevance to your post about people living on the street and asylum seekers. But I often fail to see what connections you are making on many things. Firstly of course asylum seekers by the nature of the thing are homeless. Secondly turning to rough sleepers, the cut in provision of services for the homeless is yet another failure of this regime. However Rough sleepers have the right to work, asylum seekers don't. Rough sleepers have the right to benefit support( what there is of them) Asylum seekers dont. Rough sleepers can move location and seek alternative accommodation, Asylum seekers can't. Do you see where this is going. It's government policy to prevent asylum seekers from gainful employment pending the average 18 month assessment period of their claim. If they were permitted to work during the period or at the very least it was reduced to the average 9 months in the rest of Europe, most of whom are processing considerably more claims than the UK, many of the issues wouldn't be relevant. If safe methods of entry into the country were also provided for asylum seekers the " small boats" Tory click bait issue would also be removed. What next from the false equivalency argument. "Asylum seekers are treated better than the character in James bond who ended up in a pool of piranhas" . It's just nonsense.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 10, 2023 6:49:00 GMT
The impact of regime cuts and xenophobia apparent in the tertiary education sector with less choice available and costs preventing young adults moving from the family homes. With A level results out next week it's going to be a difficult time for many. Needless to say the main stream media will be covering it with their normal in depth analysis by showing a selection of photogenic young people jumping up and down flashing their A stars! www.theguardian.com/education/2023/aug/10/students-fierce-competition-fewer-university-courses-available |
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Post by barbara on Aug 10, 2023 7:00:40 GMT
I'm very friendly with a lovely couple who were asylum seekers from Sri Lanka in 2000. They are Tamils and were fleeing persecution during the Civil War. His father and a brother had already been killed. They borrowed £1000 from their family and flew to Heathrow with their parents' blessing. When they arrived they were dispersed to the North East and housed by the council. They were allowed to work and the man got a job at Nissan in Sunderland. His wife was pregnant and gave birth to a daughter. They were learning English and progressing well. Their first application for asylum was rejected (not sure why) and as a result he was no longer allowed to work and just had to sit at home waiting for his appeal. He had a nervous breakdown and ran in front of a car, fortunately it managed to stop. He was sent to a psychiatric hospital and his wife was left at home with a baby. The appeal was successful and they were granted indefinite leave to stay and he could go back to work. Nissan were delighted as he is very intelligent and over qualified for the fill in job he was doing and quickly progressed. 20 years later, he still works at Nissan, his wife trained as a nursery nurse. They gained British citizenship about 10 years ago. They have bought a house and their daughter is in her 3rd year at university studying medical biosciences. In all the years I have known them the husband has never and will not speak about what happened to them in Sri Lanka. He is still affected by the memory of it all. Had they arrived here now they would likely have been separated and spent 2+ years in detention and in most likelihood the man would have committed suicide as there would be no mental health support for them. And they are nothing but an asset to the country and a credit to themselves. The rhetoric and the using real people's tragedies to wind people up and look for votes to stay in power is shameful, shameful stuff. Great heartwarming story until you spoilt with your last two paragraphs of idle speculation. We get a lot of that on this site. "The Tories would most likely do this...". " If this happened then the Tories would..." and so on. That's not speculation, that's government policy! |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Aug 10, 2023 7:03:03 GMT
For those that say the Bibby Stockholm is not a problem, this is a report from a worker who actually lived on it www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/bibby-stockholm-barge-conditions-resident-experience-b2390135.html'A worker who stayed on the Bibby Stockholm has said the barge is “not designed for living on”, describing “cramped conditions” where people would go “stir-crazy”. Ruairi Kelly lived on the vessel for several months in 2013, when it was berthed in the Shetlands for a gas pipeline project. He told The Independent it was “not luxurious” and felt more like a cross-Channel ferry than living quarters. The government is set to cram in 500 asylum seekers onto the barge – two to a room in bunks and more than double its previous capacity. Mr Kelly, who was working on the Laggan-Tormore gas plant project as a health and safety adviser, said there were “never two people in a room at one time” because they were so small. The Home Office has jammed bunk beds into each of the Bibby Stockholm’s 222 cabins to increase the capacity to around 500, while also reducing the amount of living space for asylum seekers by closing off a bar and other areas for crew use only' I forecast problems ahead |
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 10, 2023 7:03:23 GMT
I would just like to say to my burgeoning fanbase on this forum that my account was briefly hacked into late last night by a Corbynite Birmingham City supporter who, as you may observed, not only inserted a a disgracefully doctored photograph of my political hero, Tony Blair, as an avatar but also recited one of the most disturbing terrace anthems in English football. I can only apologise for this security lapse, which Mark is now urgently investigating, and the grievous offence it may have caused. I should imagine some of you thought I had taken leave of my senses.
You will be relieved to know that normal service has been resumed and I have updated my avatar and strapline accordingly.
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Post by barbara on Aug 10, 2023 7:03:32 GMT
barbara Indeed There are plenty of inmates at Ford who go to work every day, most within the prison estate but others are day released to work. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. But We're treating convicted criminals with more respect than displayed to asylum seekers.The vast majority if able want to work, we need the workers but leeanderthal wants them to fuck off to France instead! And treating the asylum seekers vastly better than the poor souls sleeping on the streets. Which says more about the appalling treatment of people sleeping on the streets by this regime than it does about asylum seekers. It's the zero sum game that the Tories use all the time. More migrants = no jobs for you Looking after asylum seekers humanely - no money to look after you |
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Post by hireton on Aug 10, 2023 7:07:46 GMT
The media cheerleader of the authoritarian right continues its campaign against free speech of people it disapproves of. Unfortunately it hasn't realised thst the guidelines it refers to regarding speakers and UK Government events have been withdrawn pending a judicial review:
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 10, 2023 7:33:33 GMT
Crofty's typically witty "Midnight with Mercian" description of Mercy Man's regular nocturnal ramblings got me thinking of other alliterative UKPR posting patterns.
"Twilight with Trevor"
"After Dark with Dave"
"Isa for Insomniacs"
"A soiree with Steve'
"Canoodling with Colin"
"Joking with Jen"
"Jousting with jib"
There are probably many others.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2023 7:43:28 GMT
The awful drownings in the Med last week demonstrate that the focus on Tunisia as the latest major route for Sub Saharan trafficking to Europe is correct. That boat left from Tunisia. The EU has engaged with the controversial Tunisian regime in a £90 million joint initiative to discourage this traffic. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-66222864It certainly looks as though Tunisia is intent on playing its part :- www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/9/at-least-27-people-found-dead-in-desert-after-expulsion-from-tunisia-libyaI wonder whether the EU really believes that making them die in the desert rather than drown in the Med is what they had in mind. ? This wave of humanity ( 330 k last year) is surely only going to increase as the Sahel turns into a military junta , and climate continues to bring drought and economic decline. Without "safe routes" to Europe which it seems unwilling to provide ,the migrants seem determined to risk their lives in clandestine entry. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2023 7:52:04 GMT
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Post by barbara on Aug 10, 2023 7:58:53 GMT
Crofty's typically witty "Midnight with Mercian" description of Mercy Man's regular nocturnal ramblings got me thinking of other alliterative UKPR posting patterns. "Twilight with Trevor" "After Dark with Dave" "Isa for Insomniacs" "A soiree with Steve' "Canoodling with Colin" "Joking with Jen" "Jousting with jib" There are probably many others. Boozing with Barbara Raving with Rafwan Noshing with Neil Dancing with Domjg... |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2023 7:58:54 GMT
Mark Rowley complaining again that he can't get shot of his bad apples :-
"Sir Mark Rowley, the Metropolitan Police commissioner, called on ministers to urgently push through legislation giving police chiefs dismissal powers instead of independent lawyers, who he said were “fundamentally soft”.
Rowley expressed frustration over months of delay to a government review of the national disciplinary system and said an overhaul of standards in his own force was being held back.
The final say on gross misconduct cases has been given to lawyers known as legally qualified chairs because of concerns that the disciplinary system was secretive and that senior police should not mark their own homework.
A Home Office review, which is considering whether powers should be handed back to senior police, was expected in May but has been delayed. Rowley questioned whether lobbying by organisations such as the Police Federation, which represents rank-and-file officers, was behind the delay.
In a separate opinion piece in The Times, he urged the government to “stay the course” and warned: “I worry that if the outcome is just a watered down version of the necessary reform rather than bold change, then the message will be sent that the system as a whole is weak on standards.”
The Times understands that Suella Braverman, the home secretary, is supportive but other government officials point out that sackings are at their highest level in years and that police chiefs previously failed to root out wrongdoing."
Times
Meanwhile 200 or so boys and girls in blue accused of wrongdoing at the Met are on full pay, many of whom are suspended in a process that can take years.
Nuts
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 10, 2023 8:02:17 GMT
colinThe issue of safe routes is immense and needs to be addressed. I should perhaps remind you that under the terms of the illegal illegal immigration act that even those who have entered the UK by safe but non authorised methods , the addition of legal is irrelevant because in the vast majority of cases there aren't any, will still be subject to deportation and won't be considered for refugee status. The European union asylum policy is hindered by those member states that most resemble our regime.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2023 8:07:31 GMT
colin The issue of safe routes is immense and needs to be addressed. I should perhaps remind you that under the terms of the illegal illegal immigration act that even those who have entered the UK by safe but non authorised methods , the addition of legal is irrelevant because in the vast majority of cases there aren't any, will still be subject to deportation and won't be considered for refugee status. The European union asylum policy is hindered by those member states that most resemble our regime. The EU/Tunisia deal is a Commission project. I agree with you that "the issue of safe routes" is immense whilst this wave of humanity is willing to risk life itself in reaching Europe-which seems as unlikely to abate, as Europe's unwillingness to open its borders to uncontrolled immigration. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2023 8:14:59 GMT
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 10, 2023 8:17:28 GMT
Crofty's typically witty "Midnight with Mercian" description of Mercy Man's regular nocturnal ramblings got me thinking of other alliterative UKPR posting patterns. "Twilight with Trevor" "After Dark with Dave" "Isa for Insomniacs" "A soiree with Steve' "Canoodling with Colin" "Joking with Jen" "Jousting with jib" There are probably many others. Boozing with Barbara Raving with Rafwan Noshing with Neil Dancing with Domjg... Carousing with Carfrew Moderating with Mark Agonising with Athena Shapeshifting with Shevii Grumbling with Graham |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 10, 2023 8:23:32 GMT
colin Other than the trope " uncontrolled immigration " which has little actually to do with the issue of displaced people and asylum seekers but is a handy replacement term for those who don't want to consider the implications, I wouldn't fundamentally disagree with your last post. The fact is most European union countries have provided safe haven for far more asylum seekers proportionate to their population than the UK but far less than non European union countries such as Turkey and Lebanon. Because refugees aren't actually immigrants many naturally want to stay as close to their home as possible in the hope that the situation improves. It's why the numbers choosing the UK are relatively small.Indeed most displaced people remain in their own home country. I've never said or implied that European union countries are perfect in general they have been far more efficient at processing asylum seekers claims in a in a timely manner but there's a lot left to do in relation to safe passage and the European union isn't without its populist xenophobic politicians pushing back on progress and raising the threat of the outsider for narrow partisan political advantage.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Aug 10, 2023 8:30:14 GMT
Had this as a quiz question, who was the longest-lived British head of state until Elizabeth the second?
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 10, 2023 8:46:28 GMT
Here's a novel thought. Radical even. Why don't we approach the issue of those seeking asylum in our country from a humanitarian starting point? Default to compassion and philanthropy first before seeing it as a terrible problem. View it instead as a potential cultural and economic benefit to this country and feel some sort of pride that we live in a country and society that people fleeing danger see as safe refuge. They often risk their lives to get here.
If you start there, then just think how the policies would flow thereafter. You welcome the people rather than suspect them. You have asylum criteria that must be met, obviously, but instead of approaching that process with an intention to bar these people, you accept and welcome them instead. The application process isn't feared and evaded then but accepted as part of gaining citizenship with us. It would probably work much quicker too.
The mentality then becomes one of actually wanting these people here rather than looking at ways and means to reject them.
Humanitarianism and kindness are then the watchwords. Sure, people will try and game the system, they always will, but you take a utilitarian view of it all. The vast majority aren't doing that so why worry about the few who are. The greatest good for the greatest number. Obsessing about the few can prevent you caring for the vast majority.
This applies to all welfare functions of government and society. If you run a food bank you don't run it like some poverty vetting centre, obsessed with a few fiddling the system, you instead concentrate on the vast majority who need the food. Governments should organise welfare and benefits systems like that too. Fraud is rare but inevitable, so get the help to the people who need the safety net to live. Draconian qualification rules prevent you doing that.
This isn't a perfect way by any means and steely eyed accountants and curtain-twitchers, always on the lookout for imagined scoundrels, will no doubt bridle at the "waste" involved. C'est la vie. You get nowhere pandering to mean spirit. Or you shouldn't.
Default to compassion and understanding and work from there. You always end up in a better place if you do.
Charity doesn't actually begin at home. Not in the good society, anyway.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Aug 10, 2023 8:51:53 GMT
Here's a novel thought. Radical even. Why don't we approach the issue of those seeking asylum in our country from a humanitarian starting point. Default to compassion and philanthropy first before seeing it as a terrible problem. View it instead as a potential cultural and economic benefit to this country and feel some sort of pride that we live in a country and society that people fleeing danger see as safe refuge. They often risk their lives to get here. If you start there, then just think how the policies would flow thereafter. You welcome the people rather than suspect them. You have asylum criteria that must be met, obviously, but instead of approaching that process with an intention to bar these people, you accept and welcome them instead. The application process isn't feared and evaded then but accepted as part of gaining citizenship with us It would probably work much quicker too. The mentality then becomes one of actually wanting these people here rather than looking at ways and means to reject them. Humanitarianism and kindness are then the watchwords. Sure, people will try and game the system, they always will, but you take a utilitarian view of it all. The vast majority aren't doing that so why worry about the few who are. The greatest good for the greatest number. Obsessing about the few can prevent you caring for the vast majority. This applies to all welfare functions of government and society. If you run a food bank you don't run it like some poverty vetting centre, obsessed with a few fiddling the system, you instead concentrate on the vast majority who need the food. Governments should organise welfare and benefits systems like that too. Fraud is rare but inevitable, so get the help to the people who need the safety net to live. Draconian qualification rules prevent you doing that. This isn't a perfect way by any minds and steely eyed accountants and curtain-twitchers, always on the lookout for imagined scoundrels, will no doubt bridle at the "waste" involved. C'est la vie. You get nowhere pandering to mean spirit. Or you shouldn't. Default to compassion and understanding and work from there. You always end up in a better place if you do. Charity doesn't actually begin at home. Not in the good society, anyway. Unfortunately for the tory party 'pandering to mean spirit' is really all they've got. |
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Post by kay9 on Aug 10, 2023 8:54:26 GMT
Had this as a quiz question, who was the longest-lived British head of state until Elizabeth the second? My guess, without looking it up, would be George III. Victoria reigned for longer, but she was very young (18?) when she came to the throne. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Aug 10, 2023 9:02:14 GMT
Had this as a quiz question, who was the longest-lived British head of state until Elizabeth the second? My guess, without looking it up, would be George III. Victoria reigned for longer, but she was very young (18?) when she came to the throne. I went for Victoria, it was wrong , so was George the Third Result surprised me |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 10, 2023 9:02:37 GMT
"Number of people waiting for hospital treatment in England reaches new record high at 7.6m – UK politics live" Which number was this On Sunakered's lie list?  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2023 9:06:51 GMT
colin Other than the trope " uncontrolled immigration " which has little actually to do with the issue of displaced people and asylum seekers but is a handy replacement term for those who don't want to consider the implications, I wouldn't fundamentally disagree with your last post. The fact is most European union countries have provided safe haven for far more asylum seekers proportionate to their population than the UK but far less than non European union countries such as Turkey and Lebanon. Because refugees aren't actually immigrants many naturally want to stay as close to their home as possible in the hope that the situation improves. It's why the numbers choosing the UK are relatively small.Indeed most displaced people remain in their own home country. I've never said or implied that European union countries are perfect in general they have been far more efficient at processing asylum seekers claims in a in a timely manner but there's a lot left to do in relation to safe passage and the European union isn't without its populist xenophobic politicians pushing back on progress and raising the threat of the outsider for narrow partisan political advantage. I get the impression from your posts of someone who has been subject to prejudice on the basis of skin colour and ethnic background during your life. I can't begin to understand how that feels. But I think it unreasonable of you to attribute that sort of opinion to fears and uncertainties about large scale immigration of people who are fleeing from economic and social deprivation rather than fear of persecution. I think it reasonable for any country to consider how many 1951 Refugee Convention persons they feel able to take in ; and also to want economic immigration to be managed in line with the countries economic and workforce needs from time to time. This is not xenophobia or racist. The policy which emerges in a given country from those considerations is , of course , subject to critical analysis. I agree with you about the massive numbers of displaced people in Lebanon and Turkey. The numbers are mind boggling as are those for UNHCR camps. The exodus from Africa through the Atlantic and Med is tragic. I don't know how Europe ( including UK) can ever meet the total need. I agree with you that we can and should improve our response. But it is naive in my view, to believe that a home for all those lost souls can and will be found in Europe. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 10, 2023 9:08:59 GMT
neiljI thought it was Victoria But how about Gordian I emperor of Rome including Britannia, 81 years old at death.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 10, 2023 9:11:29 GMT
colinIt's not actually based on my skin colour it's more that because my grandfather would have been deemed an illegal immigrant under regime policy and deported , despite going on to be a Sgt Major in the British army , I wouldn't have been around at all.
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