16-JUL 2023 : LAB: 46% / CON: 26% / LDEM: 11% / REF: 6%

[Deleted]

Aug 9, 2023 11:11:09 GMT domjg said:

Aug 9, 2023 11:02:24 GMT alec said:

colin - "I wonder if the Tony Blair Institute will be the Wagner of Starmers administration. ?"

Not sure where that came from, but are you aware that it's actually rather offensive?

On your barge post, I've been a bit nonplussed about the fuss over the principle of the barge idea. Aside from the issue of the fire safety standards, which would be unforgivable if the fire service views are accurate, I can't see why it's such a bad idea. We have a lot of migrants who need somewhere safe and warm to stay, and if done properly, a floating accommodation seems like a reasonable option.

Where do they get their outdoor time and exposure to nature, walking on water? It's meant to look and feel like a prison to satisfy mean-spirited inhabitants of, for example, England's eastern counties. 

Maybe they are planning swimming classes so that when they are forced out they have a better chance of serving a return journey?

Actually you make a good point but I assume outdoor time etc etc needs to be in managed spaces which would then have repercussions on staff levels and, obviously, this government don’t want to pay for extra staff they just want these people somewhere else.

Can’t believe we have to suffer more than a year of this utter shambles.

[neilj]

Tory commentator thinks we should starve asylum seekers so they can experience what it's like to live in the UK under the tories

[Deleted]

Aug 9, 2023 11:02:24 GMT alec said:

colin - "I wonder if the Tony Blair Institute will be the Wagner of Starmers administration. ?"

Not sure where that came from, but are you aware that it's actually rather offensive?

On your barge post, I've been a bit nonplussed about the fuss over the principle of the barge idea. Aside from the issue of the fire safety standards, which would be unforgivable if the fire service views are accurate, I can't see why it's such a bad idea. We have a lot of migrants who need somewhere safe and warm to stay, and if done properly, a floating accommodation seems like a reasonable option.

No .I'm not. I get a bit  behind with the latest edition of Offenses Bulletin.

[Deleted]

Aug 9, 2023 11:11:09 GMT domjg said:

Aug 9, 2023 11:02:24 GMT alec said:

colin - "I wonder if the Tony Blair Institute will be the Wagner of Starmers administration. ?"

Not sure where that came from, but are you aware that it's actually rather offensive?

On your barge post, I've been a bit nonplussed about the fuss over the principle of the barge idea. Aside from the issue of the fire safety standards, which would be unforgivable if the fire service views are accurate, I can't see why it's such a bad idea. We have a lot of migrants who need somewhere safe and warm to stay, and if done properly, a floating accommodation seems like a reasonable option.

Where do they get their outdoor time and exposure to nature, walking on water? It's meant to look and feel like a prison to satisfy mean-spirited inhabitants of, for example, England's eastern counties. 

Free to come and go. It's not a prison.

[Deleted]

They have a security key card and should be back by 11pm.

[graham]

Interesting to see that the MRP poll gives Labour a 79% chance of winning Wimbledon. Its predicted result is Lab 40.4% Con 26.6% LD 22.2%. Useful material for Labour leaflets there.

I believe there is a lot of gibberish in this poll. Labour will not win Norfolk South - and the LDs are unlikely to win back Norfolk North.

[Mark]

steve said:

Currently there is no contradiction between the two , it might get a tad trickier at a general election, but to be honest the current Labour leadership isn't doing much to encourage me and other progressive supporters to lend them out vote.
If it's obviously the only way to get rid of the Tory incumbent I will but with zero enthusiasm regarding vanilla Brexit with a cherry on the top labour 

That, for me, sus it up.

I am increasingly thinkng that 2024 will be the 'get the tories out' election.

For steve above, Brexit will be a big issue, for someone else, it might be the mortgage crisis, for a third voter, possibly something else again.

But, in Steve's case, the priotity is getting rid of the current incumbents, even if he has to vote for a party whose policy on something he patently cares deeply about sticks in the craw.

The same goes for people who have other issues as their priorities...and the same reason we can expect to see (and have already seen in by-elections) significant tactical voting.

I had a lightbulb moment last week litening to Any Questions on Radio 4.

For the early questions, the tory MP gave some reasonable answers.

Answers that I, personally, would disagree with, indeed strongly disagree with, but, someone who is ROC may like.

But, after he spoke, not a pindrop. Not even a ripple of applause. Nothing.

Ok, latr in the programme, his answers were bloody awful and he rightly got bood and heckled.

The point is, it's hightly unlikely that the audience was stuffed entirely with lefties and that there weren't any audience members that are ROC in their core beliefs. As far as the tories are concerned, people simply are not listening. They have turned off/away.

It really does feel like it's curtains now.

They may pull a bit back at this election if they, as looks increasinly likely, they pursue the, how can I put this, green-backlash route, but even if they reasue some votes that way in this election, with younger generations being very green-concious, in the longer term, it'll do them no favours.

[lens]

Aug 8, 2023 23:52:41 GMT Danny said:

Aug 8, 2023 23:29:10 GMT lens said:

Practically, a big objection to hydrogen for cars is energy inefficiency. If it is to be made in a green manner there are losses at the various stages of hydrogen production, dispensing and use in a fuel cell such that for every kWh originally, only about 30% or so gets delivered to the wheels. With a battery it's more like 90-95%. Like for like, you need to start off with about 3x as much electricity going the green hydrogen route vis a vis battery.

This seems approximately comparable to the inefficiencies in converting gas into electrical power.

Yes - in principle. But we're moving (hopefully) from an era where such as gas and coal were primary energy and electricity produced from such was secondary, to an era where it's the electricity that is primary, directly from wind turbines or solar panel. 

It has made sense to use such as gas for home heating for precisely the reasons you mention - but when the equation switches round (make gas from electricity), then likewise the argument will switch round. If possible it will make more sense to use the electricity directly rather than go through the inefficiencies of the conversion process. (Such were tolerated in gas/coal to electricity because electricity is far more verstile 

Aug 8, 2023 23:52:41 GMT Danny said:

Aug 8, 2023 23:29:10 GMT lens said:

And frankly there are better ways of achieving a grid balance, such as more grid storage and smart metering. (Encouraging by price electricity consumption at times of otherwise low usage - and overnight car battery charging is a good way to achieve such.)

But no one seems to have built any on a practical scale?

Danny - why do you have to comment on subjects you clearly know nothing about? For starters, try looking at www.energy-storage.news/800mwh-of-utility-scale-energy-storage-capacity-added-in-the-uk-during-2022/ That's just in the UK, and never forget such as pumped hydro, and it's a rapidly growing field.

And arguably started perhaps in 2017 with Elon Musk and the Hornsdale scheme, since much expanded. If you want details, just see en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve 

Aug 8, 2023 23:52:41 GMT Danny said:

Aug 8, 2023 23:29:10 GMT lens said:

It's also worth mentioning getting the hydrogen to such a filling station. Currently, tanker deliveries of petrol/diesel are one thing - for hydrogen it's not so simple because most of the tanker weight gets taken up by the weight of the pressure vessel rather than fuel itself. Like for like, to service a given number of car miles, reckon on needing something like 10-15x as many tanker deliveries as for petrol/diesel! Yes, really. And such as this was gone into about 20 years ago with the Bossel-Elliason report, and the fundamental physics has not changed

If this happens, then the Uk will already have a national network of pipes delivering hydrogen gas to every home. So perhaps what you need is not tankers, but local compressors attached to the local low pressure gas distribution network, which already exists.

!!!! As simple as that!? Danny - there are many subjects on this board that I know little about, and it can be interesting sometimes to learn. But I try not to comment on any such unless to ask a clarifying question.

Here, then no, Danny. As it stands, the gas grid is not capable of carrying pure hydrogen for a variety of reasons, not least that because it's such a small molecule it will leak where methane doesn't. That's not to stop a dedicated pipe being laid to such a filling station - but in sheer cost terms it's just exchanging one cost for another. Similarly, another alternative is to have local electrolysis at a fuelling station and produce on site. But such would require a huge upgrade to the electricity supply to the station. I have seen such proposed as an alternative to battery charging "because of the problems of getting enough electricity to the chargers" in one instance - the author seemingly oblivious to the irony of what they were saying!

Aug 8, 2023 23:52:41 GMT Danny said:

Aug 8, 2023 23:29:10 GMT lens said:

And of course, no possibility of "refuelling" at home.

If compressors could be designed small and cheap enough, again yes the domestic gas supply currently exists.

And now Danny, it's difficult to know if you're being serious or simply arguing for the sake of it. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and try to give a straight answer.

I can only assume you have no familarity with compressors at all? I have - albeit for air for scuba use. Don't underestimate the issues involved. As example - www.compressorshop.co.uk/mch6em-icon-lse-100-300-bar-13amp?records_per_page=10 .

Which is just about the most basic you can get - but is still nearly £2,000. Energy wise it is quoted at 2.2kW, and to fill a standard 12 litre cylinder takes about 30 minutes and about a kWh of energy. And it requires fairly frequent servicing. And those figures are using it to about 200 bar. To get the full range from your hydrogen car you need it at 700bar. I'll leave it to you to guess how much even a basic compressor capable of hydrogen to that pressure costs, and the energy usage, and I suspect it's unlikely to be able to run from a 13 amp socket. (Even most scuba compressors need either 30 amps or are petrol.) Oh! And that's only half the story. Don't forget the dispensing equipment to mate with the car. And air is one thing, hydrogen another - would you be happy with your next door neighbour installing such?

And that's before even thinking about the gas grid and it's current inability to safely carry pure hydrogen. (And it needs to be very pure to avoid poisoning the fuel cell catalyst.)

Whereas on the other hand you can just get an electrician to lay in a 30 amp cable from your fuse box to a charger - job done. I know which seems the most sensible to me?

[neilj]

lens

Many thanks for that, good to have a view from some one with knowledge in the field

[steve]

Some might have noticed that I spend time discussing the fascist traitor in the U.S.
The importance of the US as a functioning democracy can't be overstated and that's what's at stake here

I feel It's a shame that none of our UK media pay attention to just how bat shit insane the traitor is, we rarely see him speaking, if we do it's only for a few edited seconds.
The following clip of number 45 is from the excellent Meidas Touch Network the presenter Ben Meisalas is a successful trial attorney.

You can skip some of the deranged ravings , probably good for your blood pressure but I would urge you to watch some and contrast it with the clips of President Biden later in the broadcast.

As Biden says " don't compare me to god, just compare me to the opposition.
By the way this is the traitor by no means at his worst.

youtu.be/4ZKogWe_a3w

[lens]

Aug 9, 2023 6:18:30 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Aug 8, 2023 23:54:51 GMT oldnat said:

Thanks for the response. It helps. However, I'm intrigued by your response about using offpeak renewable electricity. You are probably correct. It would be much more effective to use the output from nuclear stations (which we seldom need as baseload) to provide the power for electrolysis. That would only require the electrolysis process to be briefly interrupted, when there was insufficient wind/tide/solar. The output from offpeak wind/solar would just be an additional benefit.

I'm with you on improved grid storage. That Downing St still hasn't signalled the UK energy policy, to the companies with shovel ready hydro storage schemes, to allow them to go ahead at zero cost to the public purse is "regrettable" - but unsurprising. 

Well, this has cropped up before, so to summarise: while the cost of plant - in this case the electrolyser for producing hydrogen - lying idle some of the time might be a factor, it isn’t necessarily that critical. After all, we have gas peaker plants lying idle a lot of the time already, but they’re still viable.

.........
Part of the reason they lie idle, is when the wind isn’t very strong. But there’s another case when the wind is much better, and there’s actually too much leccy being produced for the grid to handle.

In these circumstances, not only are the wind turbines turned off, and lying idle, but we might even be obliged to pay for them to be turned off. 

This is why an electrolyser might be considered preferable. Yes, you have the cost of the electrolyser lying idle some of the time, but you have to set that against the cost of leaving the wind turbine lying idle, ........

And as said on the specialist thread, I don't disagree with what you say above, and am not arguing against any green hydrogen per se - but what *IS* the case is that when the subject of "we can easily and cheaply make hydrogen with electricity that would otherwise be wasted" the electrolyser plant utilisation is rarely mentioned. 

It's a little like buying a car especially to commute, as opposed to going by train, solely on a basis that the fuel cost is less than the train fares. Maybe so - but it's wrong to ignore such as insurance, road tax, maintenance etc etc. (And if a car is wanted for other uses anyway, a different argument again.)

But yes, production of green hydrogen may be desirable, and may be possible to balance electricity costs versus plant usage to make it worthwhile - but it's fantasy to just think "it will be so cheap because it's electricity that would otherwise be wasted" without considering the other costs.

But it's starting to go off topic, which is that there are two very separate issues - green hydrogen per se, and using hydrogen to power road vehicles. There is a lot of hydrogen already used in industry as a basic chemical and the sooner that is made in a green way the better. But trying to promote it's use for new applications where it's got a lot of problems is quite another matter.

And on the subject of weight, it's worth noting that such as the Mirai are roughly similar to a comparable battery car. Yes, a BEV battery is heavy - but so are pressure tanks, together with fuel cell, voltage convertor, air purification equipment (to avoid poisoning the fuel cell) and much more that an FCEV needs that a BEV doesn't. And as I think Steve may have mentioned, the increased weight is a bit of a red herring as car weights have increased generally over the years. If a car park operator was thinking of banning BEVs for such reason, then even more reason to ban such as Range Rovers etc! And from a driving point of view, then weight matters less in a BEV than a petrol/diesel as braking returns a lot of the energy to the battery via regen - with a conventional car it's lost as energy in the brakes.

[steve]

colin

"They have a security key card and should be back by 11pm.

So do inmates at HM Prison Ford.

Coincidentally there are around 500 male inmates at Ford, their accommodation is rather better than on the prison barge with far more facilities and open space..
Overnight there are normally between 2 and 10 prison officers on duty, the inmates aren't banged up overnight.
Upon occasions to my knowledge there have been incidents where no prison officers are available , they might have taken a toilet break , if you come to the front door at these times don't worry one of the trustees will let you in or out!


But have no doubt it's still a prison.
My old inspector was there for a couple of years following an unfortunate incident he most definitely didn't want to be.

[Deleted]

Aug 9, 2023 12:03:58 GMT colin said:

Aug 9, 2023 11:02:24 GMT alec said:

colin - "I wonder if the Tony Blair Institute will be the Wagner of Starmers administration. ?"

Not sure where that came from, but are you aware that it's actually rather offensive?

On your barge post, I've been a bit nonplussed about the fuss over the principle of the barge idea. Aside from the issue of the fire safety standards, which would be unforgivable if the fire service views are accurate, I can't see why it's such a bad idea. We have a lot of migrants who need somewhere safe and warm to stay, and if done properly, a floating accommodation seems like a reasonable option.

No .I'm not. I get a bit  behind with the latest edition of Offenses Bulletin.

I’m a bit offended by that.

[Mark]

Aug 9, 2023 8:07:10 GMT colin said:

Shock Report.

Algerian asylum seeker says barge is "fine" and food and bed are "good" as he walks around Weymouth.

Well, of course he does, as would you or I.

There are currently 15 people on it.

That's ample space for all involved. Some people live their lives on a boat on their own, by choice.

The issue is whether it will be so good if they try to stuff 500+ refugees on there.

Apart from overcrowding, the already highlighted fire risks, any airbourne infections would sweep through the place and also associated general hygene risks.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Aug 9, 2023 12:58:52 GMT lens said:

Aug 9, 2023 6:18:30 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Well, this has cropped up before, so to summarise: while the cost of plant - in this case the electrolyser for producing hydrogen - lying idle some of the time might be a factor, it isn’t necessarily that critical. After all, we have gas peaker plants lying idle a lot of the time already, but they’re still viable.

.........
Part of the reason they lie idle, is when the wind isn’t very strong. But there’s another case when the wind is much better, and there’s actually too much leccy being produced for the grid to handle.

In these circumstances, not only are the wind turbines turned off, and lying idle, but we might even be obliged to pay for them to be turned off. 

This is why an electrolyser might be considered preferable. Yes, you have the cost of the electrolyser lying idle some of the time, but you have to set that against the cost of leaving the wind turbine lying idle, ........

And as said on the specialist thread, I don't disagree with what you say above, and am not arguing against any green hydrogen per se - but what *IS* the case is that when the subject of "we can easily and cheaply make hydrogen with electricity that would otherwise be wasted" the electrolyser plant utilisation is rarely mentioned. 

It's a little like buying a car especially to commute, as opposed to going by train, solely on a basis that the fuel cost is less than the train fares. Maybe so - but it's wrong to ignore such as insurance, road tax, maintenance etc etc. (And if a car is wanted for other uses anyway, a different argument again.)

But yes, production of green hydrogen may be desirable, and may be possible to balance electricity costs versus plant usage to make it worthwhile - but it's fantasy to just think "it will be so cheap because it's electricity that would otherwise be wasted" without considering the other costs.

But it's starting to go off topic, which is that there are two very separate issues - green hydrogen per se, and using hydrogen to power road vehicles. There is a lot of hydrogen already used in industry as a basic chemical and the sooner that is made in a green way the better. But trying to promote it's use for new applications where it's got a lot of problems is quite another matter.

Well if you want to consider the case where someone argues that electrolysers are free, that’s one thing. But it’s still not much use to only focus on electrolyser costs. 

Anf the situation that actually pertains, is whether it makes sense to throw away the energy even after allowing for the electrolyser costs, and taking into account the costs of leaving wind turbines idle instead. 

And you also need to consider the value of the hydrogen you are not producing which might be worth more than the leccy. And that there might be payments for keeping the turbines idle.

It’s not much use to just focus on electrolyser costs and ignore those other factors. Those other factors might well outweigh the electrolyser and related costs. 

[alec]

colin - bit weird that you think the TBI has any similarities with a mercenary army known for abuse and sexual violence, but there you go. Takes all sorts.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Aug 9, 2023 12:58:52 GMT lens said:

Aug 9, 2023 6:18:30 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Well, this has cropped up before, so to summarise: while the cost of plant - in this case the electrolyser for producing hydrogen - lying idle some of the time might be a factor, it isn’t necessarily that critical. After all, we have gas peaker plants lying idle a lot of the time already, but they’re still viable.

.........
Part of the reason they lie idle, is when the wind isn’t very strong. But there’s another case when the wind is much better, and there’s actually too much leccy being produced for the grid to handle.

In these circumstances, not only are the wind turbines turned off, and lying idle, but we might even be obliged to pay for them to be turned off. 

This is why an electrolyser might be considered preferable. Yes, you have the cost of the electrolyser lying idle some of the time, but you have to set that against the cost of leaving the wind turbine lying idle, ........

And on the subject of weight, it's worth noting that such as the Mirai are roughly similar to a comparable battery car. Yes, a BEV battery is heavy - but so are pressure tanks, together with fuel cell, voltage convertor, air purification equipment (to avoid poisoning the fuel cell) and much more that an FCEV needs that a BEV doesn't. And as I think Steve may have mentioned, the increased weight is a bit of a red herring as car weights have increased generally over the years. If a car park operator was thinking of banning BEVs for such reason, then even more reason to ban such as Range Rovers etc! And from a driving point of view, then weight matters less in a BEV than a petrol/diesel as braking returns a lot of the energy to the battery via regen - with a conventional car it's lost as energy in the brakes.

Well I didn’t say anything about the weight of hydrogen cars or about car parks, so dunno why you are addressing me on the matter.

(That said, there is a potential weight issue wrt particulates with battery EVs, but given the pressure to extend range it’s possible weights of batteries and indeed the rest of the car may fall over time. Battery efficiency tends to improve over time anyway). 

[domjg]

Aug 9, 2023 11:38:24 GMT neilj said:

Tory commentator thinks we should starve asylum seekers so they can experience what it's like to live in the UK under the tories

Just unbelievable, using the cost of living crisis the tories themselves have done so much to exacerbate as fodder for their campaign of generating hate and resentment. It might sound hyperbolic but pure wickedness is the phrase that comes to mind. What a despicable person this Platell is. 'Fill their bellies', er you mean 'eat'. All you need to know about modern tories, basic sustenance should be seen as if it's a luxury like it's 1750 or something. 

[Deleted]

domjg

“ Just unbelievable, using the cost of living crisis the tories themselves have done so much to exacerbate as fodder for their campaign of generating hate and resentment. It might sound hyperbolic but pure wickedness is the phrase that comes to mind. What a despicable person this Platell is. 'Fill their bellies', er you mean 'eat'. All you need to know about modern tories, basic sustenance should be seen as if it's a luxury like it's 1750 or something.”

Showed it to my ex-Social Worker wife, Jane, and she was appalled. I think it’s evil and effectively an incitement for violence against these people. Disgraceful the way in which they are always referred to as “illegal” when most are not and the staff shortages we have encouraged mean deciding who is and who isn’t going to be allowed to stay doesn’t happen quickly enough - or even at all it is beginning to seem.

[domjg]

Just a cheery thought that occurred to me but if and when rule of law based liberal democracy once again asserts it's cultural dominance in the US and elsewhere after finally seeing off assaults from populists and hate mongers foreign and domestic then it will emerge stronger having learnt from this episode, the biggest threat to it for many decades. It will have a keener sense of it's vulnerabilities, where to re-enforce itself against attack and it won't be taken as much for granted in the future. That would be a positive outcome.

There was a complacent attitude in the years running up to the populist assaults that rule based liberal democracy was some kind of given or natural state in western nations at least requiring little nuturing. We now know what previous generations knew in that the rule of law and democracy need active, diligent maintenance and that's a good lesson to re-learn.

[Deleted]

steve Is Trump talking to schoolchildren in that clip? Sounds like it and, if so, it becomes even more insane.

America is In a really bad place. The only sense in which I have any sympathy for mercian and his posts about cultural change etc is simply to do with religion. It is destroying the United States but in most countries in Western Europe it was fading away as a major force. The change in Spain, for example, from the 50s and 60s when I was in Gibraltar, is remarkable - you couldn’t move for nuns, priests, religious festivals and so on at that time.

So I am somewhat disappointed to see it making something of a comeback here (not that it will ever affect me of course, I shall be dead and almost certainly in heaven.) This is simply because I think religion has the capacity to divide and, given there is no evidence of a “god”, is clearly built on relatively recent myths, when one thinks how long humans have existed.

For me the UK needs a new constitution, PR, a new Parliament with modern, electronic voting methods and an end to the monarchy (another myth). Nobody has “royal” blood - That, again, is a man-made concept/myth. It may be possible to draw hereditary lines back to the Middle Ages when Fred, or whoever, was “king” but that was clearly just a name given to him and one with no factual meaning. Unlike being a blacksmith, a baker or a musician for example.

The fact that our national anthem* manages to fit two myths into the first five words is embarrassing. Anyway, end of my irritable post but the state of this country and the US concerns me a lot. (I was cheered up by my little team, Gillingham, thrashing the Saints yesterday though)

*Not even sure what they’re for but I suppose they are good at footy matches (in which case we need a better one.)

[Danny]

Aug 9, 2023 12:32:56 GMT lens said:

Danny - why do you have to comment on subjects you clearly know nothing about? For starters, try looking at www.energy-storage.news/800mwh-of-utility-scale-energy-storage-capacity-added-in-the-uk-during-2022/ That's just in the UK, and never forget such as pumped hydro, and it's a rapidly growing field.

The government has just commissioned some new nuclear plant. In general this is very expensive compared to renewables. I assume they did this because they believed there is a shortfall of electrcicty, and in particular they say that it is to cover periods the wind doesnt blow (etc). So they believe there is no prospect of storage covering this gap.

The article says last year the Uk aquired 800MWH of storage capacity. Peak demand in the Uk is about 50GW, so if it was being produced by wind power and the wind didnt blow at all, thats x60 as much required to power the Uk for one hour. If we assumed something like a worst case two weeks of calm, then lets say we need x20,000 as much as was installed in 2022 to be secure. And so I conclude on the basis of your article, that all we have done so far is a drop in the ocean.

Thats a back of an envelope calculation based on O level physics. 

As it stands, the gas grid is not capable of carrying pure hydrogen for a variety of reasons, not least that because it's such a small molecule it will leak where methane doesn't.

We went into this before, and the conclusion seemed to be that town gas is largely hydrogen and was used successfully before we used natural gas. So its really not a massive problem. Unless modern seals etc have been used which are not as good as those installed 50 years ago?

And now Danny, it's difficult to know if you're being serious or simply arguing for the sake of it. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and try to give a straight answer.

I can only assume you have no familarity with compressors at all? I have - albeit for air for scuba use. Don't underestimate the issues involved. As example - www.compressorshop.co.uk/mch6em-icon-lse-100-300-bar-13amp?records_per_page=10 .

Which is just about the most basic you can get - but is still nearly £2,000. Energy wise it is quoted at 2.2kW, and to fill a standard 12 litre cylinder takes about 30 minutes and about a kWh of energy. And it requires fairly frequent servicing. And those figures are using it to about 200 bar. To get the full range from your hydrogen car you need it at 700bar. I'll leave it to you to guess how much even a basic compressor capable of hydrogen to that pressure costs, and the energy usage, and I suspect it's unlikely to be able to run from a 13 amp socket.

I would imagine petrol stations would be redesigned around an industrial scale compressor. I have no idea how much this might cost at scale, and nor do you. Sure it requires energy to compress gas, but that is true wherever you do it, so would be no worse a problem than if we had fleets of pressurised tankers. Except that the moving about would be done at the much safer low pressure. Tankers would require industrial scale compressors at some central plant anyway. What I mean is, this could be a serious problem with using hydrogen in vehicles, but it doesnt really look more of a problem using a distributed system than giant plants.

Whereas on the other hand you can just get an electrician to lay in a 30 amp cable from your fuse box to a charger - job done. I know which seems the most sensible to me?

Oh no. Thats the easy bit, basically adding an extra point to your house. The moderately hard bit is creating a public network of millions of charging points for those who cannot use home charging. The very hard bit is designing those vehicles at an acceptable cost and performance. Which we havnt done yet. I mean, they would have been acceptable if they were on sale in 1920 because they would have far out performed then motoring technology. But in 2023 they have to be acceptable to people accustomed to modern petrol vehicles. It seems that currently there is a wave of people who were enthusiastic about electric but who now are returning to petrol. On the plus side prices seem to be falling, so that may help, but they need to fall an awful lot.

[Deleted]

Aug 9, 2023 13:18:36 GMT alec said:

colin - bit weird that you think the TBI has any similarities with a mercenary army known for abuse and sexual violence, but there you go. Takes all sorts.

It does. Diversity is a wonderful thing.

[oldnat]

Aug 9, 2023 12:59:53 GMT steve said:

colin

"They have a security key card and should be back by 11pm.

So do inmates at HM Prison Ford.

Coincidentally there are around 500 male inmates at Ford, their accommodation is rather better than on the prison barge with far more facilities and open space..
Overnight there are normally between 2 and 10 prison officers on duty, the inmates aren't banged up overnight.
Upon occasions to my knowledge there have been incidents where no prison officers are available , they might have taken a toilet break , if you come to the front door at these times don't worry one of the trustees will let you in or out!


But have no doubt it's still a prison.
My old inspector was there for a couple of years following an unfortunate incident he most definitely didn't want to be.

That reminds me of Selkirk Burgh Jail in the early 19th century. The sole officer finished work at 6pm and went home to his family. Not unreasonably, the prisoner(s) followed suit but made sure to be back before the officer was back on duty the next morning

[barbara]

Aug 9, 2023 14:16:27 GMT domjg said:

Just a cheery thought that occurred to me but if and when rule of law based liberal democracy once again asserts it's cultural dominance in the US and elsewhere after finally seeing off assaults from populists and hate mongers foreign and domestic then it will emerge stronger having learnt from this episode, the biggest threat to it for many decades. It will have a keener sense of it's vulnerabilities, where to re-enforce itself against attack and it won't be taken as much for granted in the future. That would be a positive outcome.

There was a complacent attitude in the years running up to the populist assaults that rule based liberal democracy was some kind of given or natural state in western nations at least requiring little nuturing. We now know what previous generations knew in that the rule of law and democracy need active, diligent maintenance and that's a good lesson to re-learn.

Very much what happened after WW2 (which as you recall started with othering, discrimination and hate mongering and scapegoating.

 The world worked hard to protect democracy. We just all got complacent. "Cant happen here."

[oldnat]

An uncheery thought occurred to me concerning Trump's upcoming trials.

If I were a juror in such a trial, I might have reasonable fears for the safety of myself and my family, if he was found guilty. 

[Mr Poppy]

Aug 9, 2023 12:07:02 GMT colin said:

Aug 9, 2023 11:11:09 GMT domjg said:

Where do they get their outdoor time and exposure to nature, walking on water? It's meant to look and feel like a prison to satisfy mean-spirited inhabitants of, for example, England's eastern counties. 

Free to come and go. It's not a prison.

The accommodation has been used for various purposes in the past including workers:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibby_Stockholm

Similar accommodation has been used across EUrope and was used in Scotland:

Second charter ship for Ukrainians
www.gov.scot/news/second-charter-ship-for-ukrainians/

and LAB have said they will continue to use 'flotels' for the exact same purpose as Tory Plan A:

Labour would use barges to temporarily house asylum seekers, says Stephen Kinnock
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/06/labour-would-barges-temporarily-house-asylum-seekers-stephen-kinnock

In the longer-term then CON and LAB both want to 'Stop the Boats' (ie reduce and hopefully eliminate the need to use 'flotels' or 'hotels') and there is very little difference in their 'plans' (covered many times before)

Once again the polling on the specific issue. I wonder if at some point the cognitive dissonance between what LAB x-breaks think (plurality on the barge issue) and who they intend to vote for will result a drop in LAB VI (or whether Tory Plan B being considered better than Tory Plan A maintains such a high level of LAB'19 loyalty and actual GOTV on the day?)

[Deleted]

Aug 9, 2023 12:59:53 GMT steve said:

colin

"They have a security key card and should be back by 11pm.

So do inmates at HM Prison Ford.

Coincidentally there are around 500 male inmates at Ford, their accommodation is rather better than on the prison barge with far more facilities and open space..
Overnight there are normally between 2 and 10 prison officers on duty, the inmates aren't banged up overnight.
Upon occasions to my knowledge there have been incidents where no prison officers are available , they might have taken a toilet break , if you come to the front door at these times don't worry one of the trustees will let you in or out!


But have no doubt it's still a prison.
My old inspector was there for a couple of years following an unfortunate incident he most definitely didn't want to be.

This place ?

www.theargus.co.uk/news/20060108.hmp-ford-near-arundel-criticised-living-conditions/



"Priority concerns
1. Not enough was done to identify and address disparities in outcomes for prisoners from protected groups. Prisoners told us that access to paid work on temporary release and allocation to the better accommodation in the prison were unfair.
2. Prisoners complained of boredom and that there was not enough for them to do during evenings and weekends. Enrichment activities were too limited, and prisoners were not allowed to use the sports fields unsupervised.
3. Leaders and managers did not have enough oversight of the quality of the education, skills and work they offered. Leaders’ improvement plans did not effectively identify and drive improvements. Key concerns
4. There was no key worker scheme and not enough recorded interaction between residential staff and prisoners to provide ongoing support.
5. Some areas of the prison were unacceptably dirty and there was little evidence of routine cleaning practices. 6. Opportunities for consultation with prisoners were too limited.
7. The gym and outdoor sports facilities were underused and provision did not meet the wider needs of the population.
8. Too many prisoners missed valuable work and study time because of clashes with other regime activities or choosing not to return after attending personal appointments. They did not develop the positive attitudes needed for work and future employment.
9. Leaders and managers did not focus enough on improving the English and mathematics skills of prisoners who were below level 2 in these subjects. This reduced prisoners’ opportunities for progression to jobs on release on temporary licence and on discharge. 
10. The lack of a dedicated pre-release team was a significant gap for a prison whose core purpose was to prepare prisoners for release."
From -Report on an unannounced inspection of HMP Ford by HM Chief Inspector of Prisons 4–20 April 2023




www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1784649/open-prison-removes-half-inmates-safety-west-sussex

[Mr Poppy]

R&W posting their update on approval ratings for various issues. Those numbers have become quite entrenched -ve views but being so -ve already then some upside IF/when things improve on those issues (or LAB inherit them and continue CON policy approaches)

On immigration then passing the Illegal Immigration Bill didn't improve the numbers. My inspired guess is that people want to see 'results' and that will take time (and IMO require more measures, notably the #nobrainer of ID cards - possibly one area where LAB HMG will go further on dealing with the issue than CON HMG?)

[alec]

domjg - "Where do they get their outdoor time and exposure to nature, walking on water? It's meant to look and feel like a prison to satisfy mean-spirited inhabitants of, for example, England's eastern counties."

If they are imprisoned on the barge then that obviously isn't good. It would be the same as being imprisoned in a cheap hotel. But My assumption was that they could go on and off the barge. Am I wrong in this?