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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 20:11:50 GMT
Alec Your posts are so predictable. And people say that Tories can’t engage in ironic humour!  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 20:18:22 GMT
Colin You may be right about Johnson’s first Savilile comment who knows what goes on in Johnsons mind. I would be a little cautious accepting public given reasons when people jump ship. In the bigger picture there was some shall we say CV point scoring from people who were realigning there allegiances or were leaving before being sacked. Better to leave on a point of principle rather than wait to be sacked sort of thing. That might not be the case of course but politics is a pretty ruthless sport. I would reply to some of the post from Crofty but I know what a sensitive soul he is and I don’t want him going off in a huff, after all in UKPR 1 he disappeared more time than the Cheshire Cat when he got upset. Thanks. Yes he seems much happier here. .Posting his little socks off.  My mp has just emailed to ..say those antivaxxers hastle mps every day |
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Post by davwel on Feb 8, 2022 20:24:32 GMT
Just watched BBC six o'clock news. Unless I fell asleep for a couple of minutes (and I'm pretty sure I didn't ) there was no mention of the Starmer incident last night, Speaker's comment today or the poll on the incident. All of these have been extensively covered on Sky. Time to give up on BBC as far as I am concerned. I will concentrate on Sky and ITV in future. I heard the 6 pm R4 news, and it had a bad lie at the top repeated several times that the NHS waiting lists had built up due to the CV pandemic. At the very least they could have added to that statement that the waiting lists had increased to record levels due to Tory cutbacks in health spending. But the radio bulletin did at least include the Speaker`s criticism of Johnson, and Johnson`s rejection of the Speaker`s statement. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 20:51:01 GMT
colin“ he seems much happier here. .Posting his little socks off. “ Ah.... that’s typically sweet.  Mind you I take size 10/11 shoes so my socks are also quite large. They needed to be to catch up and overtake your own total of course. 
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 20:53:09 GMT
I really don't think it matters what goes on in Johnson's mind (something must), but there is an audience I'm afraid, and because of the complete lack of causality in any of his statements (it is true for his book too, it is absolutely awful), it allows for many different interpretations, as a series of words is not more than an arbitrarily chosen code to express a non-sequiture message.
In spite of Savannah's poll, I don't think that his comment on Starmer really matters for the public, but it can be a tool in the political elite.
To get to the public, it has to be a systematic, repeated message of his lying over decades. Pointing out time to time how it damaged individuals, groups, strata and the country. So, just purely negative propaganda. While all those lies (he wanted Turkey to.join.the EU, FFS) would attract a set of core supporters for him, I doubt if it exceeded 18% (like Farage), for the rest it would mean seeking an alternative whether it's CoR or CoL
Added: attribution is not the same as stating causality.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 8, 2022 20:53:55 GMT
I heard the 6 pm R4 news, and it had a bad lie at the top repeated several times that the NHS waiting lists had built up due to the CV pandemic. At the very least they could have added to that statement that the waiting lists had increased to record levels due to Tory cutbacks in health spending. But the radio bulletin did at least include the Speaker`s criticism of Johnson, and Johnson`s rejection of the Speaker`s statement. Hi davwell, the last thing I want to do is get into another argument with your good self, but it is not true to say that COVID has not had a significant impact on waiting times. It certainly has in the hospital group I work for and it is no surprise given that elective surgery and outpatient appointments were completed halted during the first COVID wave, creating a huge backlog in the process. This was done for health policy reasons, not funding. What is certainly true is that nine years of austerity had left the NHS with no surplus capacity that could be used for an emergency like COVID; therefore Osborne and the Cameron government is indeed partially to blame for the position, but the pandemic has had a huge impact in its own right, as the link below shows. I attach a link to the highly respected and independent Kings Fund. The "RTT" (referral to treatment times) graph shows how waiting times were already increasing before COVID, but then there is a huge additional hit with the first wave. The "long waits" graph, shows these had been essentially eliminated prior to COVID but then a massive spike occurs with the pandemic. Long waits are 52+ weeks. www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/waiting-times-non-urgent-treatment |
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Post by caroline on Feb 8, 2022 21:03:28 GMT
Am surprised by the number of Government ministers who seem to have two or more jobs in Government, plus their job as an MP. Just a thought if Johnson really does want to end the chaos maybe it would be better just to have one Government job each 😉 Couldn't agree more . One of the criticisms of Gray's interim report was "The leadership structures are fragmented and complicated and this has sometimes led to the blurring of lines of accountability" Johnson is now making this even worse. There is a lack of talent left to choose from but they are moving from incompetence to chaos. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 8, 2022 21:22:28 GMT
pjw1961
"the last thing I want to do is get into another argument with your good self, but it is not true to say that COVID has not had a significant impact on waiting times. It certainly has in the hospital group I work for and it is no surprise given that elective surgery and outpatient appointments were completed halted during the first COVID wave, creating a huge backlog in the process. This was done for health policy reasons, not funding. What is certainly true is that nine years of austerity had left the NHS with no surplus capacity that could be used for an emergency like COVID; therefore Osborne and the Cameron government is indeed partially to blame for the position, but the pandemic has had a huge impact in its own right"
Happy to agree with you on this! The pandemic has created stress in all 4 NHS systems in the UK and clearing the backlog will clearly take time.
Since the supply of cash ultimately depends on UKGov decisions, austerity created problems for all, so Cameron/Osborne must carry responsibility. However, the choices as to how much cash was to be spent on the NHS (as opposed to other services), how it was spent, on which priorities, and how efficiently is the responsibility of UKGE for England and of each of the devolved administrations for their polity.
I'd be amazed if any of the 4 NHS systems outshone the others on every measure, and even comparing the 4 systems has proved to be tricky.
Politically, it is entirely unexpected that opposition parties complain loud and long about the deficiencies in their polity - even though measures might be poorer in the one in which they are in power! 'Twas ever thus. 
EDIT : NI is different, as there is a multiparty executive, but the decision of the DUP to collapse the Executive before the planned H&SC pay rises and recovery plans could be implemented is down to them, and them alone.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 8, 2022 21:41:22 GMT
That Rees-Mogg is now Minister for BO is a cheap jibe - but quite funny.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 21:53:49 GMT
Just watched BBC six o'clock news. Unless I fell asleep for a couple of minutes (and I'm pretty sure I didn't ) there was no mention of the Starmer incident last night, Speaker's comment today or the poll on the incident. All of these have been extensively covered on Sky. Time to give up on BBC as far as I am concerned. I will concentrate on Sky and ITV in future. I must say, I think Sky journalists are generally far more focussed, incisive and analytical than their bland, anodyne and generally obsequious BBC counterparts. ITV are a bit of a curate's egg to me, although they've had their moments lately. |
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Post by pete on Feb 8, 2022 22:04:13 GMT
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Post by bardin1 on Feb 8, 2022 22:13:37 GMT
The idea that Johnson could carry on as PM without the support of the majority of his party appears to me to be suspiciously similar to Rees-Moog's spurious threat that his removal would necessitate a general election.
I think this may just be another falsehood leaked as scaremongering to prevent the number of letters reaching 54.
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Post by hireton on Feb 8, 2022 22:14:59 GMT
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Post by davwel on Feb 8, 2022 22:26:41 GMT
pjg
You are a shocker at jumping to conclusions at what you have imagined that I said in a message.
""Hi davwell, the last thing I want to do is get into another argument with your good self, but it is not true to say that COVID has not had a significant impact on waiting times. It certainly has in the hospital group I work for and it is no surprise given that elective surgery and outpatient appointments were completed halted during the first COVID wave, creating a huge backlog in the process. This was done for health policy reasons, not funding. What is certainly true is that nine years of austerity had left the NHS with no surplus capacity that could be used for an emergency like COVID; therefore Osborne and the Cameron government is indeed partially to blame for the position, but the pandemic has had a huge impact in its own right, as the link below shows.
I attach a link to the highly respected and independent Kings Fund. The "RTT" (referral to treatment times) graph shows how waiting times were already increasing before COVID, but then there is a huge additional hit with the first wave. The "long waits" graph, shows these had been essentially eliminated prior to COVID but then a massive spike occurs with the pandemic. Long waits are 52+ weeks.""
I DID NOT say that CV has not had a significant effect on waiting times.
Of course it did, as I well know with grandaughter and her boy-friend doctor hard at it in the Glasgow hospitals. And I said that ADDED to the R4 statement could have been the Tory cuts to health spending.
I wouldn`t have used the word "added" if I didn`t believe that there was something real to add to.
In the latest R4 news, the health correspondent gave a shorter insert. This time it wasn`t just the CV pandemic but "poor management" that got the blame for the increased waiting lists.
I don`t think you would agree.
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Post by guymonde on Feb 8, 2022 22:27:19 GMT
In fairness, this is not new. I suspect given the age profile on here, many will recall Denis Howell, Minister for Drought in 1976 - everywhere he went it seemed to promptly rain  He was promptly reshuffled to a new post as minister for floods IIRC |
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Post by alec on Feb 8, 2022 22:35:21 GMT
Not everyones cup of tea I recall, but this from Dan Hodges was entertaining: "I think people are missing the point this morning. It's not that the crazy extremists heard what Boris was saying, then decided to copy him. It's that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom heard what the crazy extremists were saying, and decided to copy them." turk - whatever. I do think that you should spend a oment to ponder why his most loyal aide who has been with him since his days in London, left him over his lack of apology, along with several of his own MPs. That tells of serious wrongdoing by the PM. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 8, 2022 22:36:57 GMT
pjg You are a shocker at jumping to conclusions at what you have imagined that I said in a message. ""Hi davwell, the last thing I want to do is get into another argument with your good self, but it is not true to say that COVID has not had a significant impact on waiting times. It certainly has in the hospital group I work for and it is no surprise given that elective surgery and outpatient appointments were completed halted during the first COVID wave, creating a huge backlog in the process. This was done for health policy reasons, not funding. What is certainly true is that nine years of austerity had left the NHS with no surplus capacity that could be used for an emergency like COVID; therefore Osborne and the Cameron government is indeed partially to blame for the position, but the pandemic has had a huge impact in its own right, as the link below shows. I attach a link to the highly respected and independent Kings Fund. The "RTT" (referral to treatment times) graph shows how waiting times were already increasing before COVID, but then there is a huge additional hit with the first wave. The "long waits" graph, shows these had been essentially eliminated prior to COVID but then a massive spike occurs with the pandemic. Long waits are 52+ weeks."" I DID NOT say that CV has not had a significant effect on waiting times. Of course it did, as I well know with grandaughter and her boy-friend doctor hard at it in the Glasgow hospitals. And I said that ADDED to the R4 statement could have been the Tory cuts to health spending. I wouldn`t have used the word "added" if I didn`t believe that there was something real to add to. In the latest R4 news, the health correspondent gave a shorter insert. This time it wasn`t just the CV pandemic but "poor management" that got the blame for the increased waiting lists. I don`t think you would agree. Your post is still there for everyone to read and the exact statement was: "it had a bad lie at the top repeated several times that the NHS waiting lists had built up due to the CV pandemic." I'm pleased you have clarified that you do not regard the increase in NHS waiting lists due to the pandemic as a lie and, as we are in agreement, I have nothing further add. I won't comment on the "poor management" point as I didn't see the broadcast and have no idea of the context. |
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Post by alec on Feb 8, 2022 22:40:29 GMT
pete - the CPTPP question being raised by Canada over hormone treated beef is just the tip of the iceberg. What I think will be interesting over the CPTPP application is going to be the dawning realisation that it isn't just the EU that has petty rules and awkward regulations. Brexit was characterized by sweeping assertions that we could get an easy del with the EU, but it was also typified by a breezy confidence tht we could join in other trade agreements, while maintaining all our standards and regulations as we saw fit. Given that CPTPP is build around US standards, even though they aren't members, the idea of joining CPTPP as an easy win was always going to be troublesome. The entire approach to acceptable regulations under CPTPP is different, and stacks of our food and safety regs will come under pressure, the diametirc opposite of what we were promised.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 22:43:00 GMT
The idea that Johnson could carry on as PM without the support of the majority of his party appears to me to be suspiciously similar to Rees-Moog's spurious threat that his removal would necessitate a general election. I think this may just be another falsehood leaked as scaremongering to prevent the number of letters reaching 54. As I understand it, 54 letters handed in sparks an election among the c380 Tory MPs, i.e. c190 required to win. I heard a journo (can't remember who) recently theorising that for every letter submitted, they estimated from their sources that a further two MPs could be added to the 'rebel' camp total. On that basis, just hitting 54 letters might mean only c170 rebels, i.e. short of a majority of the 'electorate', with the PM 'safe' for another year (from this particular threat, at any rate). I have no idea how much credence can be attached to this theory, obviously. |
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Post by alec on Feb 8, 2022 22:49:30 GMT
@isa - Johnson would only be safe for another 6 months, and the 1922 have just changed their rules.
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Post by shevii on Feb 8, 2022 22:49:35 GMT
This is so far removed from reality as to hardly need rebuttal - I find it impossible to imagine May, Cameron, Major or Thatcher using a far-right baseless conspiracy theory against the Leader of the Opposition - and yet it is being advanced here as a serious proposition. Is this from Cameron really that different? Obviously not quite a far right conspiracy theory but not that far short, especially in terms of the consequences of the rabble rousing. "Terrorist sympathiser" taking hold is surely one of the reasons Labour canvassers got attacked? |
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Post by shevii on Feb 8, 2022 22:52:11 GMT
Bah- can't get rid of the Wes Streeting bit above it- was referring to the video on the lower tweet not the Streeting bit.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 22:59:29 GMT
@isa - Johnson would only be safe for another 6 months, and the 1922 have just changed their rules. I had heard that there was a plan to change the time limit to 6 months recently, but they had rowed back on it, and were retaining 12 months after all. Things might have changed again, though. Not my specialist field, I have to say! |
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Post by mercian on Feb 8, 2022 23:04:50 GMT
..edit out the bits that waste space.  If you use the 'privacy' function (under 'profile') to hide certain people's posts you can save a lot of wasted space from waste of spacers  I would rather see all shades of opinion than to construct my own little echo chamber. |
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Post by mercian on Feb 8, 2022 23:10:17 GMT
As if the poor old Queen doesn't have enough to cope with, with the prats in her family (and please no-one say that's all of them, it's too easy). "Poor" seems an inappropriate descriptor for a woman who is almost as rich as Mrs Sunak! Poor old queen was in the sense of pity, as you well know. I was really pleased to fully retire at 65 and the poor soul is still having to play a part in running the state at 95! I know she's stepped back a bit and yes she's rich and had a privileged life etc, but I think she is magnificent in the way she has kept her coronation oath, and only the most churlish could gainsay that. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 23:13:02 GMT
Just watched BBC six o'clock news. Unless I fell asleep for a couple of minutes (and I'm pretty sure I didn't ) there was no mention of the Starmer incident last night, Speaker's comment today or the poll on the incident. All of these have been extensively covered on Sky. Time to give up on BBC as far as I am concerned. I will concentrate on Sky and ITV in future. I must say, I think Sky journalists are generally far more focussed, incisive and analytical than their bland, anodyne and generally obsequious BBC counterparts. ITV are a bit of a curate's egg to me, although they've had their moments lately. Anent (sorry, @crofty, but I quite like the word!) the BBC, I have seen very little in the way of them trumpeting their centenary year. Although things have changed a bit since the days of Lord Reith, Henry Hall and ITMA, I thought they might be making a bit more of it. Afraid of incurring more wrath from Mad Nad perchance? |
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Post by mercian on Feb 8, 2022 23:13:51 GMT
Just watched BBC six o'clock news. Unless I fell asleep for a couple of minutes (and I'm pretty sure I didn't ) there was no mention of the Starmer incident last night, Speaker's comment today or the poll on the incident. All of these have been extensively covered on Sky. Time to give up on BBC as far as I am concerned. I will concentrate on Sky and ITV in future. I recommend GB news. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 23:14:38 GMT
"Poor" seems an inappropriate descriptor for a woman who is almost as rich as Mrs Sunak! Poor old queen was in the sense of pity, as you well know. I was really pleased to fully retire at 65 and the poor soul is still having to play a part in running the state at 95! I know she's stepped back a bit and yes she's rich and had a privileged life etc, but I think she is magnificent in the way she has kept her coronation oath, and only the most churlish could gainsay that. I agree with that and think, once she gets to be one hundred, she should be given a year off to just have fun. |
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Post by pete on Feb 8, 2022 23:18:23 GMT
This is so far removed from reality as to hardly need rebuttal - I find it impossible to imagine May, Cameron, Major or Thatcher using a far-right baseless conspiracy theory against the Leader of the Opposition - and yet it is being advanced here as a serious proposition. Is this from Cameron really that different? Obviously not quite a far right conspiracy theory but not that far short, especially in terms of the consequences of the rabble rousing. "Terrorist sympathiser" taking hold is surely one of the reasons Labour canvassers got attacked? But Corbyn did sit down with some very dubious characters over the years, therefore giving his political enemies ammunition Pretty sure Starmer never had tea with Saville or other paedophiles. |
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Post by pete on Feb 8, 2022 23:19:23 GMT
Just watched BBC six o'clock news. Unless I fell asleep for a couple of minutes (and I'm pretty sure I didn't ) there was no mention of the Starmer incident last night, Speaker's comment today or the poll on the incident. All of these have been extensively covered on Sky. Time to give up on BBC as far as I am concerned. I will concentrate on Sky and ITV in future. I recommend GB news. Hardly news. |
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Mind you I take size 10/11 shoes so my socks are also quite large. 
