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Post by peterbell on Feb 8, 2022 23:26:30 GMT
Mercian Never watched GB news and no intention of starting. Is it still operating, does it have any viewers
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Post by mercian on Feb 8, 2022 23:36:53 GMT
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Post by mercian on Feb 9, 2022 0:00:31 GMT
pete - the CPTPP question being raised by Canada over hormone treated beef is just the tip of the iceberg. What I think will be interesting over the CPTPP application is going to be the dawning realisation that it isn't just the EU that has petty rules and awkward regulations. Brexit was characterized by sweeping assertions that we could get an easy del with the EU, but it was also typified by a breezy confidence tht we could join in other trade agreements, while maintaining all our standards and regulations as we saw fit. Given that CPTPP is build around US standards, even though they aren't members, the idea of joining CPTPP as an easy win was always going to be troublesome. The entire approach to acceptable regulations under CPTPP is different, and stacks of our food and safety regs will come under pressure, the diametirc opposite of what we were promised. But isn't the point that while we may have to accept their regulations for imports, our exports to them can be to our existing standards, and with good marketing could achieve a premium price. Meanwhile UK consumers don't have to buy their stuff. |
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Post by mercian on Feb 9, 2022 0:12:37 GMT
Mercian Never watched GB news and no intention of starting. Is it still operating, does it have any viewers I've had a bit of a look, but couldn't find anything more recent, but this might give you pause for thought, even if it's from a source you may not like: order-order.com/2021/11/23/gb-news-unreported-viewer-numbers/Sorry about the multiple posts. I've been out all night playing chess. By the way I think that we should not rule out sources because of our preconceptions. I read bits of the Guardian and watch Al-Jazeera and the Russian one sometimes, in order to try to understand other viewpoints. |
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Post by peterbell on Feb 9, 2022 1:47:20 GMT
Mercian "I've had a bit of a look, but couldn't find anything more recent, but this might give you pause for thought, even if it's from a source you may not like:"
Find it very difficult to believe even though it seems to be selective programs. Might be more believable if there was a quoted independant source.
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Post by moby on Feb 9, 2022 6:09:06 GMT
As I've always said it's better to be in the tent.... |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Feb 9, 2022 6:28:19 GMT
Those getting upset by Starmers confrontation, well as far as I can see Johnson in the last PMQ actually said he didn’t mean Starmer was directly involved in not prosecuting Savile .However Starmer had spent the last two months at PMQ’s telling Johnson that partygate was the direct responsibility of the person at the top regardless if the PM was present or not and as such being the person at the top must bare full responsibility for what happened. Johnson in his initial response had pointed out that at the time of Savile ,Starmer was the man at the Top of the CPS and the CPS had failed to prosecute Savile which is quite correct. Savile regardless of what we now know was one of the highest known celebrities in the U.K. And although there were tens of thousands of cases going through the courts at the time and obviously Starmer wouldn’t have known a fraction of these cases personally ,it does seem a little unusual that such a well known celebrity coming to light didn’t come to his attention. But he said he wasn’t aware so we have to take that as true. I see you are doing the same as johnson and spreading doubt whether starmer was involved in a decision which an enquiry comprehensively cleared him of.
I have heard several people now attempting to defend johnson, starting by saying he has apologised and witdrawn any allegation, but then when precisely questioned, withdrawing that apology. Instead of apologising and withdrawing, what they are really doing is repeating the claim and deliberately keeping the story running. They prefer to talk about starmer than about Johnson.
There are two sorts of culpability within partygate. Every person who attended is personally guilty of breaking the law. Anyone responsible for management of the people or premises who allowed them to take place is guilty of organising them, which is a slightly different and more serious offence. This latter category would seem to include any police officers who were present and became aware a party was taking place. it would be their duty to enforce the law, and they turned a blind eye.
The reality is people very largely respected the lockdown laws because they believed they were saving lives. People are protesting now all over the world because they no longer believe this. people only carry on partying if they do not believe the regulations work. the government administration clearly did not believe the restrictions actually worked yet they imposed them on everyone else and instituted a massive propaganda campaign to persuade others they did. labour, far from opposing this, actually called for more restrictions. Equally guilty.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Feb 9, 2022 6:43:23 GMT
Boris doesn't seem to release how so many folks, see polling[1], have turned against him and he just keeps on digging with gaffe after gaffe. It started with the 'Owen (Paterson) goal' and he's still digging his own (and CON's) grave. I don't mind him being '10% clown' and that was part of his 'charm' but he's been 100% prat for 6mths or so, which means to get back to 10% he has to be on 'best behaviour' and 'gaffe-free' for several years, starting yesterday!! Johnson is PM only because conservative mps choose him to be PM. it isnt in his power to stay without their support. He is still pm because con mPs want him to be PM. If there is any blame accruing because he is in that job, it falls on conservative MPs.
Clearly con MPs want him to carry on doing exactly what he is and always has done. His job was to deny the reality of brexit, and denying reality he continues to do. In the end conservatives dont mind if 70% of the population doesnt believe or support him, so long as the right 30% does.
Parliamentary committee this morning reporting on the damage done to uk trade by brexit. johnson was leave leader. His job title is scapegoat for brexit. the harm caused by brexit is not yet apparent and no other politician wants to be PM when it arrives. Johnson is still needed in post for this important role of deflecting blame for so very much from anyone else.
The harm caused by lockdown is not yet apparent, and no one wants to be PM when it arrives. At the moment being con PM is a temporary job ending someone's political career in this parliament, going down to defeat at the next election. All the indicators from now to the election will be bad.
So basically, dont blame boris for being PM. The decision was and is in the hands of all conservative MPs. the large majority of them currently want him to stay. its their fault.
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steve
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Post by steve on Feb 9, 2022 6:56:35 GMT
@danny
While I agree with the general trust of your last post, police officers deployed to protection duties at downing street are deployed for that purpose. In other circumstances such as guarding an embassy the don't pop off to deal with summary offences such as traffic violations as this would distract them from their core role. On crown property such as downing street their powered are in any case limited, It's a similar reason why UK police officers didn't enter the Ecuador embassy to remove Julian Assange without permission.
They can however report summary offences to their supervisors and where as in the downing street party scenarios the participants are all known this would allow future enforcement. In the case of more major criminality immediate action can be authorised but in crown property this would require home office approval. Individual officers are also likely to disregard their instructions if faced with an immediate life threatening situation. Spaffer and his cronies having a knees up doesn't unfortunately meet such a criteria.
I have no special knowledge whether the officers on duty did or didn't report the incidents they saw , I expect they did and hopefully that will become evident during the investigation.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Feb 9, 2022 7:01:26 GMT
@danny While I agree with the general trust of your last post, police officers deployed to protection duties at downing street are deployed for that purpose. In other circumstances such as guarding an embassy the don't pop off to deal with summary offences such as traffic violations as this would distract them from their core role. On crown property such as downing street their powered are in any case limited, It's a similar reason why UK police officers didn't enter the Ecuador embassy to remove Julian Assange without permission. They can however report summary offences to their supervisors and where as in the downing street party scenarios the participants are all known this would allow future enforcement. In the case of more major criminality immediate action can be authorised but in crown property this would require home office approval. Individual officers are also likely to disregard their instructions if faced with an immediate life threatening situation. Spaffer and his cronies having a knees up doesn't unfortunately meet such a criteria. I have no special knowledge whether the officers on duty did or didn't report the incidents they saw , I expect they did and hopefully that will become evident during the investigation. On that chain of command then, the home office is guilty of endorsing parties at downing street in violation of the law? priti patel is minister for authorising government parties? |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Feb 9, 2022 7:14:22 GMT
Yesterday's Zoe case data still has r=1.1 for uk, but some regions falling back to 1.0 again. The second omicron peak of cases clearly showing it is peaking, and looks to be slightly lower than the first omicron peak.
By age group, cases continue to fall amongst under 20s but to rise amongst everyone older. Obviously, its the oldest people who are actually at risk, but government hospital figures show no indication of rising admissions. If that pattern holds then the epidemic is over.
The prediction was that omicron would act in effect as a vaccination for anyone catching it which would be better than having a booster. Thats because immunity from the infection would be specific to the latest strain of covid, and also stimulate broader based immunity than the vaccine does. Bearing in mind omicron also seems to infect the air passages of our breathing system more than the alveolae, the reverse of previous strains and which makes it less dangerous.
The evidence continues to be that the faster omicron replaced delta then the safer people in the uk would be. It would cut the death rate from anyone continuing to catch covid. This was predicted and it has done this. Yet government tried to slow its spread, thereby endangering uk citizens.
The only people who opposed this dangerous policy were a few rebel conservative mps who opposed their party line and put the safety of citizens first.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Feb 9, 2022 7:28:44 GMT
Morning everyone. I was wondering if anyone knows if there are any accessible archives of US opinion polls for 1973-74? I have found some for the '76 election, but I am interested in looking at the level of support Nixon maintained during the Watergate scandal.
Overall, I am a bit sceptical of the notion that what we are seeing in terms of contemporary politics in relation to the level of partisanship, tone and tactics is that novel. To a certain degree, throughout the history of the past 250 years you can find parallels with what we see today. And in many ways, the electoral systems in the UK and US are less corrupt than they were in the 50's/60's. I think what we are seeing is that politicians, primarily from the right, are increasingly willing to brake with convention, but aspects of the politics such as virtually blind partisan loyalty, intimidation, violence and slander have always been present to some degree.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Feb 9, 2022 7:34:10 GMT
Rees-mogg has his work cut out
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steve
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Post by steve on Feb 9, 2022 7:38:30 GMT
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Post by alec on Feb 9, 2022 7:38:38 GMT
mercian - "But isn't the point that while we may have to accept their regulations for imports, our exports to them can be to our existing standards, and with good marketing could achieve a premium price. Meanwhile UK consumers don't have to buy their stuff." All perfectly true, but rather an odd line for a Brexit supporter to take, and appearing to display a deep misunderstanding with how this would unpack. For a start, it would directly contradict numerous promises from Brexiters, which we all now know are meaningless, but for me, keeping your word still matters. May you see this differently? If you accept imports at lower standards that are cheaper to produce, yes, your consumers can choose not to buy, and your producers can continue to operate with more expensive production methods, but they wll be undercut and therefore lose out. The only way this wouldn't happen is if no one buys the cheaper goods, so you would then ask what is the point of joining CPTPP. Either it cteaes a big economic gain, or it doesn't, but if that gain comes through cheaper prices from lower standards, then home producers lose out. There may be some advantage in premium grade exports as you suggest, but is that sufficint to rescue the hit to the home market? Gravity suggests not.
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steve
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Post by steve on Feb 9, 2022 7:41:08 GMT
@danny
Just telling you how it works so you don't have to make things up.
I didn't do much protection work myself but the instructions given in such circumstances are pretty clear.
The officers deployed at downing street are primarily there to protect the occupants of downing street .
You can't run around the building and gardens cautioning the occupants and issuing fixed penalty notices.
The most important element of this sorry debacle of a inept and corrupt government is its failure to comply with its own rules, not how the police officers responded to their rule breaking.
It's nice to have some grasp on reality now and then.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Feb 9, 2022 7:42:24 GMT
Ha, typically I found something just after my last post:historyinpieces.com/research/nixon-approval-ratings
Nixon seems to have maintained a core support of 25%, and given that Ford manged 48% in '76 indicate that the longer term damage to the Republican brand was not so significant as to provide Carter with a landslide in '76.
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Post by alec on Feb 9, 2022 8:00:19 GMT
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steve
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Post by steve on Feb 9, 2022 8:05:01 GMT
Attachment DeletedMinister for Brexit opportunities. Might have well made the Smugg minister for staring vacantly into the distance.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2022 8:09:38 GMT
I would rather see all shades of opinion than to construct my own little echo chamber. Then I suggest reading Guardian (notably 'Politics Live'), LAB List and Henig's twitter feed to 'pick three' ways of getting info from LOC/ABCON 'bubble'. I prefer the opinion direct from the horse's mouth and that saves time having to read the regurgitated (unsourced but easy to find) stuff spouting by many of the 'usual suspects'. Being ROC then I'm big on 'efficiency' and as a 'Leaver' then I work to reduce the length supply-chains  Do you honestly have time to read all the comments on UKPR2 and all the news from every source? If not then how do you operate your 'selective' filtering of what you read and what you reply to? Are there not some folks whose posts you never read (eg you've already read most of what they ever post elsewhere, it's just boring drivel or its fabricated nonsense - to 'pick three' options (and it could be 'all of the above' of how I 'save time') It is entirely up to each individual of course and if you have time to read every post and still read info from the real World then good for you. Oh and there is also opinion polling of course. Saves on the need for n=1 views from a very small unrepresentative sample (although perhaps some folks prefer their own little echo chamber?) |
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steve
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Post by steve on Feb 9, 2022 8:15:25 GMT
I wonder if the right wing press would have made Spaffer kicking larry the cat front page news?
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Post by barbara on Feb 9, 2022 8:24:52 GMT
@danny Just telling you how it works so you don't have to make things up. I didn't do much protection work myself but the instructions given in such circumstances are pretty clear. The officers deployed at downing street are primarily there to protect the occupants of downing street . You can't run around the building and gardens cautioning the occupants and issuing fixed penalty notices. The most important element of this sorry debacle of a inept and corrupt government is its failure to comply with its own rules, not how the police officers responded to their rule breaking. It's nice to have some grasp on reality now and then. I for one, and lots of others I suspect, didn't and don't expect police on Downing Street duties to be running around issuing parking and other tickets for minor offences. It's clear that that would be a ridiculous interpretation of their role. What we have a right to expect though is that concerns about Covid rule breaking would be reported to their superiors and/or the correct police department and that such breaches would be dealt with in exactly the same way as a policeman on say traffic duties or other specific duties, noticing a raucous party in a house during Covid restrictions would report it to the relevant officers and it would be dealt with. I hope that the police investigation covers this and that we find out if this happened. Either the individual officers on duty in Downing St are guilty of not reporting law breaking under their noses, or their bosses are guilty of corrupt practices in protecting the PM and his staff from the consequences of breaking the law. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2022 8:31:03 GMT
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Feb 9, 2022 8:34:14 GMT
@danny Just telling you how it works so you don't have to make things up. I didn't do much protection work myself but the instructions given in such circumstances are pretty clear. The officers deployed at downing street are primarily there to protect the occupants of downing street . You can't run around the building and gardens cautioning the occupants and issuing fixed penalty notices. The most important element of this sorry debacle of a inept and corrupt government is its failure to comply with its own rules, not how the police officers responded to their rule breaking. It's nice to have some grasp on reality now and then. I for one, and lots of others I suspect, didn't and don't expect police on Downing Street duties to be running around issuing parking and other tickets for minor offences. It's clear that that would be a ridiculous interpretation of their role. What we have a right to expect though is that concerns about Covid rule breaking would be reported to their superiors and/or the correct police department and that such breaches would be dealt with in exactly the same way as a policeman on say traffic duties or other specific duties, noticing a raucous party in a house during Covid restrictions would report it to the relevant officers and it would be dealt with. I hope that the police investigation covers this and that we find out if this happened. Either the individual officers on duty in Downing St are guilty of not reporting law breaking under their noses, or their bosses are guilty of corrupt practices in protecting the PM and his staff from the consequences of breaking the law. Or it could be the officers on the ground are so inured with the sense that the government are entitled to do what they want that they turn a blind eye. |
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Post by alec on Feb 9, 2022 8:36:53 GMT
Just for general info, but I recall a couple of posters previously asking about alternative heating systems.
The domestic RHI scheme is being terminated from March, but there is a new scheme due to replace it, the Boiler Upgrade Scheme, which offers £6K of upfront grants for new boilers. I don't yet have the details, so I'm assuming they need to be green boilers, but if anyone is interested the fundig only covers 90,000 boilers, so you will need to get in quick.
Some of the new pellet boilers would be worth a look on that price. There are some models that can be fitted with air ducting to warm several rooms, others can plug into existing heating systems. Fuel storage can be an issue though.
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Post by pete on Feb 9, 2022 8:48:49 GMT
pete - the CPTPP question being raised by Canada over hormone treated beef is just the tip of the iceberg. What I think will be interesting over the CPTPP application is going to be the dawning realisation that it isn't just the EU that has petty rules and awkward regulations. Brexit was characterized by sweeping assertions that we could get an easy del with the EU, but it was also typified by a breezy confidence tht we could join in other trade agreements, while maintaining all our standards and regulations as we saw fit. Given that CPTPP is build around US standards, even though they aren't members, the idea of joining CPTPP as an easy win was always going to be troublesome. The entire approach to acceptable regulations under CPTPP is different, and stacks of our food and safety regs will come under pressure, the diametirc opposite of what we were promised. But isn't the point that while we may have to accept their regulations for imports, our exports to them can be to our existing standards, and with good marketing could achieve a premium price. Meanwhile UK consumers don't have to buy their stuff. If you've the ability to be choosey and if you know their stuff isn't in your sausages/pies etc, fine...that's a big if. |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Feb 9, 2022 9:07:38 GMT
Just for general info, but I recall a couple of posters previously asking about alternative heating systems. The domestic RHI scheme is being terminated from March, but there is a new scheme due to replace it, the Boiler Upgrade Scheme, which offers £6K of upfront grants for new boilers. I don't yet have the details, so I'm assuming they need to be green boilers, but if anyone is interested the fundig only covers 90,000 boilers, so you will need to get in quick. Some of the new pellet boilers would be worth a look on that price. There are some models that can be fitted with air ducting to warm several rooms, others can plug into existing heating systems. Fuel storage can be an issue though. Good gracious Alec, £6k as a subsidy for a domestic boiler. The average new gas boiler is £1k or so, with a 10 year warranty. Reminds me of when I was 20 years old and an NCB management trainee seconded to NCB HQ to assist the team managing the fallout from the Stokermatic fiasco. For those that don't know, Stokermatic made domestic boilers/warm air furnaces that used a screw drive to stoke their fire with small graded anthracite. They had two in service issues, one being that the screw drive shear pins broke regularly and you had to dig out the anthracite to replace them and the second was that the warm air furnace heat exchangers burnt through and spread coal dust and fumes through the property. Things got so bad that the Coal Board bought the company and shut down installations whilst paying for replacement installations with a different fuel source. 30 years later I found myself working for a season as sales admin for a Christmas tree grower, who had diversified into growing short rotation coppice willow for firing power stations. Indeed he was actually a supplier of new varieties of willow from Scandinavia, where new clones were bred to provide more calorific value per piece of wood. In the intervening 30 years my employment had nothing to do with fuel in any way whatever. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Feb 9, 2022 9:08:32 GMT
Sda
Not going to be police advocate here, but it's entirely possible that officers at downing street have fully reported events, in fact it would be difficult to see why they wouldn't, but that this has been disregarded by senior management.
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Feb 9, 2022 9:15:06 GMT
Sda Not going to be police advocate here, but it's entirely possible that officers at downing street have fully reported events, in fact it would be difficult to see why they wouldn't, but that this has been disregarded by senior management. I wasn't being critical of the police Steve, just pointing out that such things can happen, especially with a government intent on pushing the boundaries of their entitlement. In this case I really do hope the cops on the ground retained their objectivity. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Feb 9, 2022 9:18:01 GMT
The excellent 'More or Less' have given the lie to Johnson's claims that those in employment has increased by 400,000 since the start of the pandemic. You can only get to that figure if you exclude the self employed, when you include the self, employed employment has fallen by 700,000
Another fake claim is that crime has fallen by 14%, but you only get to that if you exclude fraud etc. When you include all crime it actually risen by 14%
Johnson has been told by this by various organisations, including the British Statistics Authority. Despite this he keeps repeating the fake claims. They also had an interesting discussion on the lack of power to force ministers to correct the record when they have misled Parliament
Parliament does need to address the issue of what do you do with a Prime Minister who repeatedly lies and refuses to correct the record
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