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Post by reggieside on Feb 8, 2022 18:11:20 GMT
not sure about that. Out of four offspring - two are man child, entitled idiots and one's a nonce. Plus the late racist philanderer phil. Then you had the late uncle louis the paedophile and Duke of windsor the nazi sympathiser. Princess Anne and her maj having to do a lot of heavy lifting in the "not a complete embarrassment" department. |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Feb 8, 2022 18:13:37 GMT
More reports, this time in the Times, that Johnson might refuse to resign no matter what. There's no legal requirement that the Prime Minister has to obey his party and resign if he loses a leadership election. And the FTPA makes it very clear that the law sets out a specified route for the PM's resignation to be demanded. So it's getting closer and closer to Johnson daring his own party to support a FTPA Vote of No Confidence if they want to get rid of him. That must be fantasy. Were Johnson to cease to be party leader much of the Cabinet and other Ministers would resign. Ah! This is where Danny's contrary'un theory comes into play, which says that Johnson is working so that Con lose a 2022 GE and leave Lab to cope with all the excreta they can see coming down the pipe. |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Feb 8, 2022 18:17:39 GMT
Hi reggieside - I'm a bit confused, did you quote the wrong post?
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Post by reggieside on Feb 8, 2022 18:20:54 GMT
Hi reggieside - I'm a bit confused, did you quote the wrong post? lol - think i did! |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 8, 2022 18:22:01 GMT
Hi reggieside - I'm a bit confused, did you quote the wrong post? |
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Post by alec on Feb 8, 2022 18:29:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 18:35:13 GMT
not sure about that. Out of four offspring - two are man child, entitled idiots and one's a nonce. Plus the late racist philanderer phil. Then you had the late uncle louis the paedophile and Duke of windsor the nazi sympathiser. Princess Anne and her maj having to do a lot of heavy lifting in the "not a complete embarrassment" department. Eh?  ? |
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Post by jayblanc on Feb 8, 2022 18:37:24 GMT
More reports, this time in the Times, that Johnson might refuse to resign no matter what. There's no legal requirement that the Prime Minister has to obey his party and resign if he loses a leadership election. And the FTPA makes it very clear that the law sets out a specified route for the PM's resignation to be demanded. So it's getting closer and closer to Johnson daring his own party to support a FTPA Vote of No Confidence if they want to get rid of him. That must be fantasy. Were Johnson to cease to be party leader much of the Cabinet and other Ministers would resign. And Johnson can replace any members of the Cabinet with Loyalists at his whim. It comes down to what Johnson is prepared to do to prevent being relegated to a discredited and disliked backbencher. I can not put it beyond him to decide that being the Leader of a New Loyalist Tory Movement better suits him, even if it deals a blow to the Conservative Party. We already know he's a liar, a narcissist, a cheat and a scoundrel, we just don't know how far he's willing to take it. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 18:38:19 GMT
Hi reggieside - I'm a bit confused, did you quote the wrong post? lol - think i did! You know that we have a delete function here don’t you? |
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Post by peterbell on Feb 8, 2022 18:46:53 GMT
Just watched BBC six o'clock news. Unless I fell asleep for a couple of minutes (and I'm pretty sure I didn't ) there was no mention of the Starmer incident last night, Speaker's comment today or the poll on the incident. All of these have been extensively covered on Sky.
Time to give up on BBC as far as I am concerned. I will concentrate on Sky and ITV in future.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 18:53:50 GMT
In a way this site demonstrates one of a number of reasons why the Tory/right wing tend to be in government more than the left.
They are an amazing mono-culture and seem to support anybody and everybody on “their” side whenever they are under perceived attack from anyone who is not.
Whereas those who are not on their side here range from Scots voters - who definitely don’t vote Labour, Green and LD voters - who probably don’t typically vote Labour and Labour voters who usually do. Yet even with the latter it is easy to visualise the Corbyn wing of the party failing to support Starmer in a general election and a number who didn’t vote Labour at the last one.
Put simply the left is divided and is also, I believe, far more likely to criticise politicians on their side of the divide.
I don’t think there is any doubt that this has worsened over the years. Batty expressed it well earlier but I can remember that not so long ago there were loads of Tory politicians whom I respected and admired and/or that I thought were honourable. Most have now either died, left or been kicked out of the party.
Johnson is morally indefensible and yet he is strenuously defended. Turk’s posts are really weird manifestations of this, with their “Your Dad’s got sticky out ears” ** style of debate dominating.
(** I chose that ‘cos my Dad did have sticky out ears.)
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 8, 2022 18:54:37 GMT
In terms of public anger, I can quite understand that folk in No 10 partying during lockdown is something that they can relate to more easily than fraud,or misuse of public money, but I find the latter to be of far greater concern.
pingthread.com/thread/1490988461226340354
and
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Post by neilj on Feb 8, 2022 18:56:18 GMT
Am surprised by the number of Government ministers who seem to have two or more jobs in Government, plus their job as an MP.
Just a thought if Johnson really does want to end the chaos maybe it would be better just to have one Government job each 😉
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 8, 2022 18:56:49 GMT
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Post by graham on Feb 8, 2022 19:00:27 GMT
That must be fantasy. Were Johnson to cease to be party leader much of the Cabinet and other Ministers would resign. And Johnson can replace any members of the Cabinet with Loyalists at his whim. It comes down to what Johnson is prepared to do to prevent being relegated to a discredited and disliked backbencher. I can not put it beyond him to decide that being the Leader of a New Loyalist Tory Movement better suits him, even if it deals a blow to the Conservative Party. We already know he's a liar, a narcissist, a cheat and a scoundrel, we just don't know how far he's willing to take it. But the process to select his successor as Tory leader would proceed whether he wished it to or not. At the end of that process Tory MPs would vote to install their new leader as PM - even if that initially required a vote by the Commons to vote Johnson out. |
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Post by shevii on Feb 8, 2022 19:03:54 GMT
The three minute video I posted earlier shows Starmer and Lammy with grave faces walking quietly and with dignity as they are harassed by yobs. While I agree 100% with everything else you say on this subject (including probably getting a bonus sympathy vote) I actually don't think he handles these situations well. This reminded me of a video from Conference where a Labour member just wanted to talk to him about New Green deal and he totally ignores her in the same sort of fashion: www.facebook.com/Labourheartlands/videos/421927075944189/Same with the pub landlord. Of course he's in a difficult situation here and has to be wary of his safety so I don't blame him for just ignoring them, but I think a lot of politicians might have said something to ease the tension and acknowledge their existence (which usually helps) and some might even have tried a debate. Although it's not a golden rule for me and depends on circumstances, I tend to find if I'm in a potentially dangerous situation then humanising someone by talking to them actually works better than ignoring them- nothing worse than ignoring an aggressive person as it makes them more aggressive. But anyway I do think Starmer has a problem in dealing with the general public as witnessed by the leaden response to the pub landlord and even to his own members in that clip above. These are not that unusual scenes from politics over the years- the key issue in all of this being that Johnson encouraged these lies just as he encouraged violence with the letterbox comment whether he thought where his his words would lead or not. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 8, 2022 19:09:56 GMT
ComRes are annoyingly slow to put up their data tables, but have now got 25 Jan set up.
Last 7 ComRes Scots crossbreak average (change from end Dec in brackets)
SNP 45% (nc) : SCon 19% (-4) : SLab 22% (+4) : SLD 9% (-1) : SGP 2% (nc) : REFUK 2% (+1)
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Post by thylacine on Feb 8, 2022 19:16:14 GMT
]But anyway I do think Starmer has a problem in dealing with the general public as witnessed by the leaden response to the pub landlord and even to his own members in that clip above.
These are not that unusual scenes from politics over the years- the key issue in all of this being that Johnson encouraged these lies just as he encouraged violence with the letterbox comment whether he thought where his his words would lead or not.[/quote]
Well we all know where trying to engage a hostile voter got poor old Gordon. Maybe the Prescott approach would have been better?
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Post by jayblanc on Feb 8, 2022 19:16:48 GMT
And Johnson can replace any members of the Cabinet with Loyalists at his whim. It comes down to what Johnson is prepared to do to prevent being relegated to a discredited and disliked backbencher. I can not put it beyond him to decide that being the Leader of a New Loyalist Tory Movement better suits him, even if it deals a blow to the Conservative Party. We already know he's a liar, a narcissist, a cheat and a scoundrel, we just don't know how far he's willing to take it. But the process to select his successor as Tory leader would proceed whether he wished it to or not. At the end of that process Tory MPs would vote to install their new leader as PM - even if that initially required a vote by the Commons to vote Johnson out. The FTPA is pretty clear, they don't vote to replace someone with a new PM. The whole parliament has to vote to kick one out if he doesn't want to go. And then they have to 'find a government that has confidence of the house'. The problem there is that we have the Tory Loyalists led by Rees-Mogg saying that if Johnson goes, then there should be an election, as a signal that they won't get an in-party majority to support the new leader. Probably a bluff, but if not... |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 8, 2022 19:17:33 GMT
Am surprised by the number of Government ministers who seem to have two or more jobs in Government, plus their job as an MP. Just a thought if Johnson really does want to end the chaos maybe it would be better just to have one Government job each 😉 Many of them are non-jobs in reality and don't take up much time being just for show. In fairness, this is not new. I suspect given the age profile on here, many will recall Denis Howell, Minister for Drought in 1976 - everywhere he went it seemed to promptly rain  |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 8, 2022 19:23:18 GMT
That must be fantasy. Were Johnson to cease to be party leader much of the Cabinet and other Ministers would resign. And Johnson can replace any members of the Cabinet with Loyalists at his whim. It comes down to what Johnson is prepared to do to prevent being relegated to a discredited and disliked backbencher. I can not put it beyond him to decide that being the Leader of a New Loyalist Tory Movement better suits him, even if it deals a blow to the Conservative Party. We already know he's a liar, a narcissist, a cheat and a scoundrel, we just don't know how far he's willing to take it. Presumably at that point he doesn't have a majority in the house, so GE likely and I suspect his new party would get wiped out by the power of loyalty to the Conservative brand. I don't see Johnson doing that for selfish reasons, although I do agree he doesn't give two monkeys about the Tory party other than as a vehicle for his ambition. Johnson really is turning into the UK's Trump. |
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Post by graham on Feb 8, 2022 19:23:54 GMT
But the process to select his successor as Tory leader would proceed whether he wished it to or not. At the end of that process Tory MPs would vote to install their new leader as PM - even if that initially required a vote by the Commons to vote Johnson out. The FTPA is pretty clear, they don't vote to replace someone with a new PM. The whole parliament has to vote to kick one out if he doesn't want to go. And then they have to 'find a government that has confidence of the house'. The problem there is that we have the Tory Loyalists led by Rees-Mogg saying that if Johnson goes, then there should be an election, as a signal that they won't get an in-party majority to support the new leader. Probably a bluff, but if not... Under those circumstances there would be a majority to remove Johnson - and it would be almost certain that the new Leader would be able to head a government 'that has the confidence of the House' - regardless of JRM et al. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 19:31:48 GMT
please respect that we are each entitled to our opinion. If that 'opinion' triggers you then simply ignore it rather than try to drag UKPR2 into the 'cesspit'. THat is good advice on this site, given the huge imbalance in political leaning and the change in membership since the Old Site. But the result tends to be two echo chambers-each talking to their own "side". Polling discussion tends to be more cross party because the folk interested in polling trends seem less interested in personal comment . There are ‘levels’ of ‘ignore’ from: 1. Read but don’t reply (eg when someone often posts something interesting but not on every topic) … 10. Hide everything that person says and tick all the other privacy boxes (although I can get caught out on the Issue Specific threads) Also, IMO, there can often be good debate within each ‘side’ (well amongst the small number of my side, I can’t speak for LoCs). As we see on Saville polling and Boris polling generally CON folks are very divided (hence I’m interested in the ‘Save Big Dog’ opinion as I’m in the ‘Get Boris Gone’ camp) We’ve differed on issues in past and whilst I lean CON, I’m not a ‘Unionist’ (so often agree with SNATS and am interested in when they might ‘Get Indy Done’ - no rush by the sounds of it) The point is that some folks on some/all topics can be ignored but of course each person can choose who to ignore, to what ‘level’, etc We are all entitled to an opinion but I very much doubt anyone on here will change their opinion, and when it is demonstrably clear they won’t then ‘leave them to it’ rather than waste time+effort engaging. IMO at least |
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Post by turk on Feb 8, 2022 19:32:06 GMT
Alec
Your posts are so predictable whenever anybody puts a different point of view your default position is to claim they either don’t understand or are completely wrong and only you have the right perspective. I would point out that the nonsense you spouted about Watsons heart felt apology was nothing of the sort it was the weasel words of somebody that had been caught out in his own lies. Certainly that’s what the Lady Brittan thought along with a good many others.
In the 2019 independent inquiry into child sex abuse Lawyers for another one of Watsons victims Harvey Proctor accused Watson as a vehicle for conspiracy theorists. Daniel Janner QC stated Tom Watson appointed himself chief paedo-finder general and created a moral panic. His motive was personal political advancement riding on a bandwagon of public frenzy which he had whipped up. He should hang his head in shame.
Not for the first time your defending the indefensible with your nonsense of heart felt apology rubbish.
As for the other nonsense about Johnson it seems even when Johnson said in the following PMQ’s he wasn’t suggesting Starmer was involved in that decision your very selective hearing must have switch off at that point.
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Post by jayblanc on Feb 8, 2022 19:33:54 GMT
And Johnson can replace any members of the Cabinet with Loyalists at his whim. It comes down to what Johnson is prepared to do to prevent being relegated to a discredited and disliked backbencher. I can not put it beyond him to decide that being the Leader of a New Loyalist Tory Movement better suits him, even if it deals a blow to the Conservative Party. We already know he's a liar, a narcissist, a cheat and a scoundrel, we just don't know how far he's willing to take it. Presumably at that point he doesn't have a majority in the house, so GE likely and I suspect his new party would get wiped out by the power of loyalty to the Conservative brand. I don't see Johnson doing that for selfish reasons, although I do agree he doesn't give two monkeys about the Tory party other than as a vehicle for his ambition. Johnson really is turning into the UK's Trump. There is a lot of money to be made out of being the leader of a movement, including one that never wins elections. Far more than a back-bencher would make, even with a column in the Telegraph. If faced with the choice between going quietly or focusing on the next money making opportunity, well... It's quite well known in the business world that 'failing upwards' into CEO isn't the end of someone's career when the company collapses, they just take their 'experience and contacts' off to the next round of suckers. |
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Post by jayblanc on Feb 8, 2022 19:45:17 GMT
Under those circumstances there would be a majority to remove Johnson - and it would be almost certain that the new Leader would be able to head a government 'that has the confidence of the House' - regardless of JRM et al. It'd only take about sixty Loyalists ready to agree to JRM's opinion, and just abstain, and the new leader would have to ask another party for support. The DUP would likely make impossible demands, and anyone else will look at the current polling and say they'd actually quite like a general election right now. Are there sixty Loyalists who've tied themselves to the Loyalist Tory Brexit Boris Chums for Life movement? Well, I'm already surprised how it's taking so long to trigger a Leadership election at all. Who knows what's going on behind closed doors right now. But everything has shown how unpredictable Johnson is, and how little regard he's given to 'Convention'. Let's all remember that he illegally prorogued parliament! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2022 19:45:28 GMT
PMQs. Might Boris surprise us and offer an unconditional and sincere apology to Starmer and/or for Partygate?
NOT a prediction but if he wants to shows he’s changed then tomorrow is his chance to show CON MPs he has.
However, that would chuck all the ‘loyalists’ who have vocally supported him under the bus. Whilst that is something he’s done in the past then the ‘micro-shuffle’ shows how weak he is.
So at best, maybe he just stops digging? TBC of course
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Post by turk on Feb 8, 2022 19:47:09 GMT
Colin
You may be right about Johnson’s first Savilile comment who knows what goes on in Johnsons mind.
I would be a little cautious accepting public given reasons when people jump ship. In the bigger picture there was some shall we say CV point scoring from people who were realigning there allegiances or were leaving before being sacked. Better to leave on a point of principle rather than wait to be sacked sort of thing.
That might not be the case of course but politics is a pretty ruthless sport.
I would reply to some of the post from Crofty but I know what a sensitive soul he is and I don’t want him going off in a huff, after all in UKPR 1 he disappeared more time than the Cheshire Cat when he got upset.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 8, 2022 19:52:37 GMT
Presumably at that point he doesn't have a majority in the house, so GE likely and I suspect his new party would get wiped out by the power of loyalty to the Conservative brand. I don't see Johnson doing that for selfish reasons, although I do agree he doesn't give two monkeys about the Tory party other than as a vehicle for his ambition. Johnson really is turning into the UK's Trump. There is a lot of money to be made out of being the leader of a movement, including one that never wins elections. Far more than a back-bencher would make, even with a column in the Telegraph. If faced with the choice between going quietly or focusing on the next money making opportunity, well... It's quite well known in the business world that 'failing upwards' into CEO isn't the end of someone's career when the company collapses, they just take their 'experience and contacts' off to the next round of suckers. I can agree with that to some degree, as Farage has obviously done very well personally our of leading glorified pressure groups, but (a) Johnson at present still seems to have ambitions to remain PM and the Conservative Party is the best vehicle for that and (b) in cash terms there is probably more money to be made as an ex-PM and Tory leader on the lecture circuit. Apparently people even pay to hear the likes of Theresa May and Gordon Brown, never famous as orators, so doubtless "Boris" would do well. However, he is a wrecker of things by nature, so I guess it's possible; a better route would be to try and expel everyone he doesn't like. That worked last time and that way he can keep the Conservative brand. This is what's happening with Trump and the Republicans. |
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Post by pete on Feb 8, 2022 19:58:48 GMT
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