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Post by robbiealive on May 11, 2022 15:31:07 GMT
Robbiealive "a lack of revolution, the one undisputed aspect of British exceptionalism," I don't get this. What about Cromwell? They chopped off the king's head! Or was that too long ago to count? Sorry if I misled you. I was talking about political not economic change. Of course England had a revolution in the middle of the 17th century. Within 2 years of Cromwell's death Charle II was restored with powers not much less than his executed father enjoyed. As he said when he received his rapturous welcome. "Given everyone loves me it's odd I have been away so long!" The 1688 Glorious Revolution, a coup not a revolution, displaced James II & established that Parliament would meet regularly thereafter. Soon after 1700 it was clear that no government could survive for long which did not have a majority in the eermanent HOC or indeed the Crown's support. The former was more important. This ushered in a 150 years of aristocractic government & in outline provided the essence of our present system. From the late 19th century & esp in the 20th century virtually EVERY major and less major European country has had a revolution/collapse and modelled and remodelled its institutions, sometime several times. Russia, the whole of Eastern Europe, France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Spain, Portugal, the Balkan states, Greece, Turkey. None of these countries adhere to their former systems. The exceptions are GB, Switz & some of the Scandinavian countries. One can throw in USA. GB has not taken part in the creative or destructive process visited on ne4arly every western country & hence its fundamental institutions while modified have not been annihilated & recast. That was my simple point. It gets more ponderous ever time I repeat it, As a German professor said in the 1950s: "You can tell this country has had a stable system. They still use coins with Queen Victoria's head stamped on them." |
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Post by laszlo4new on May 11, 2022 15:46:15 GMT
Hi Mark, raining like hell this morning in Swansea but things much improved this afternoon, there is a Wednesday quiz in the No Sign, but I think if you said John Major as the answer to who coined "the Classless Society" you would be wrong. I thought it was actually Karl Marx when he wrote about he stages of societal development from "classless" tribal, through hierarchical feudal, bourgeoisie, etc to a final classless communism. Then again I might be wrong! I often am. Strictly speaking it was in Engels's The Origins of the Family, Private Property and the State (he clearly stated that he used Marx's manuscripts, but in no Marx published works the stages appear (although it is generally correct). To give further context. It is fascinating to read his letters when he recognised that there were divergent pathways to capitalist agriculture (and he even learnt Russian because of this), and hence he kind of withdrew what is in the third volume of Capital about it (it was published by Engels long after Marx's death). |
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Post by Mark on May 11, 2022 15:59:53 GMT
I bought an onion from the local supermarket the other week. It cost me 18p. For one onion, onions being a staple in many/most dishes from pasta dishes to curries. What the **** kind of meal can anyone cook for 30p?  Yes, if you cook in bulk, from scratch you can save some money on food, but, that assumes, firstly that you have a sizeable freezer, secondly, that you actually have the equiptment to cook from scratch with, thus instantly disqualifying many that live in shared housing who have a toaster and a microwave and not much else due to fire regulations, thirdly, at a time when energy bills are soaring, is he counting in the cost of energy to actually cook these 30p meals? What an utter ****wit. |
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Post by crossbat11 on May 11, 2022 16:05:16 GMT
My Ode to Colin
Colin, Colin. it's good that he's back, it's good that he's back.
Colin, Colin. it's good that he's back, it's good that he's back.
Did you miss him, yeah, while he was away, did you hang his picture on your wall
Did you kiss him, yeah, every single day, although he couldn't kiss me at all.
And did you love him, yeah, like a good little boy,
Did you tell that naughty boy not to post, did you love him, yeah, in my little world,
Although you couldn't read him at all, although you couldn't read him at all....
(alright, not exactly Roger Waters, but Paul Gadd had his moments.)
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Post by alec on May 11, 2022 16:12:02 GMT
colin/ lululemonmustdobetter - I may well be wrong, but I'm not so sure that the war in Ukraine will drag on for a long time. At least, I'm not sure the scale and nature of the destruction will continue, because we do need to bear in mind that the war has already gone on for eight years, although limited to a much smaller theatre and with sporadic fighting. Russia is losing a phenomenal amount of men and machines here, and is making little or no progress. They've just past the 650 tank losses mark, from confirmed visual losses, so it will be higher than this, and they are being pushed backwards around Kharkiv, with reports now that they are having to withdraw units from their main thrust southwards from Izyum to bolster their defences to the rear. If the Kharkiv counter attack continues, it won't be long until we are looking at the threat of Russian troops being encircled. We are seeing their most advanced tanks get blown up, their modern naval vessels are being sunk on a regular basis, we're 75 days in and their air force still cannot dominate the airspace, even while Ukrainian pilots are flying below 100 feet and scoring hits inside Russia. The US now believes that junior and more senior officers are disobeying orders. There are images from Chinese broadcasters of the complete destruction of a Russian tank a couple of kilometres outside Mariopul - an area the Russians are meant to have had total control over for two months now. Absolutely nothing is working for the Russians. I can't see how Russia can sustain this situation for very long, and unless they are able to turn the tide and make some striking breakthrough within the next week or two (something that looks less and less likely by the hour) then I think soon we will be watching another Russian retreat, and battle for Putin to hold onto what he already has. I can't see Putin negotiating a permanent settlement, but we might be moving towards a frozen conflict, when the fighting largely stops and no one really knows what to do.
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Post by caroline on May 11, 2022 16:14:47 GMT
“Deference” is/was a characteristic inculcated into the children of the working class in the post war period, toff your cap to the land owner, sit up straight in class and don’t question the teacher. Work hard, know your place and be grateful for the food on your plate, those in Africa are starving. I think things have changed a bit since then. In the postwar settlement, free health care, expanded public education, a minimal social security safety net, strong trade unions gave people some sense of security. Radicals angry at the social injustices were side lined, punished with ridicule, had their careers and sometimes their liberty threatened. That too has changed. Canvassing in the Local elections I met people who were not angry with the social system they were genuinely frightened. Working in more than one job, struggling to pay bills, knowing that income is not keeping up with expenditure and fearful of debt. No energy to engage in community activity, not stupid enough to believe that voting a few more Labour councillors on to strap cashed local authorities would make an one iota of difference it was difficult to get these voters to the polls. If Labour do win the next election it will be with the votes of the middle classes, many of the “working class” have given up on the idea that voting can change anything. Labour cannot afford to alienate these middle class voters as they have done in the past, if they do they will loose again. If Labour win the next election the problems are on such a scale that only incremental change will be possible initially and Labour will fail again but anything would be better than what we have now. I think we should all be prepared for serious civil unrest in the coming winter and it will outside of the established political system. "Deference" wont be its defining characteristic and the new bill to deter social protest will be draconian in its effect. Although one of those 'children of the working class' (my father was a 'Bermondsey Boy') and after he died my mother went back into service in the mid-1950s because she felt that was the best way she could provide for me (board and far better lodging provided than we were used to), the money she earned from part-time waitressing being offset by a reduction in her widow's pension after the pension people somehow found out she had a job. Anyway, she certainly didn't inculcate in me a deference to the gentry or wealthy business people in whose houses we lived. (I still have the letter though which one of them (very much gentry) sent the nine-year-old me after we left saying how sorry he was we had moved on and wishing me all the best for the future). I may have left those working class roots behind (my sons earn incredibly - to me - high salaries in the City and software engineering), but I and they still vote Labour (though I suspect one of them now living in Twickenham may have voted LibDem in the recent local elections). I think you were lucky. Maybe our childhood experiences differed because you were living in close proximity to the "gentry" and saw them warts and all. We had no real contact with rich people and were slightly afraid of them. |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 16:49:58 GMT
My Ode to ColinColin, Colin. it's good that he's back, it's good that he's back. Colin, Colin. it's good that he's back, it's good that he's back. Did you miss him, yeah, while he was away, did you hang his picture on your wall Did you kiss him, yeah, every single day, although he couldn't kiss me at all. And did you love him, yeah, like a good little boy, Did you tell that naughty boy not to post, did you love him, yeah, in my little world, Although you couldn't read him at all, although you couldn't read him at all.... (alright, not exactly Roger Waters, but Paul Gadd had his moments.) Bloody disgraceful and utterly disrespectful. (What’s the tune??) |
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Post by johntel on May 11, 2022 16:58:42 GMT
I see that the Prime Minister has promised to defend Sweden from attack. I think he has got that confused with Swindon. Well I think it will be the UK Military, not Boris personally. I sincerely hope so anyway. But don't you think it's important? The Swedish PM seemed pleased with the arrangement. And it's very good we've forgiven them for 1810. |
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Post by moby on May 11, 2022 17:01:36 GMT
Moby: "I do think there is something in the argument that the English state faced with revolution all over Europe gave away enough power to the growing mercantile class especially to avoid revolution?" I don't know what our historians will make of that argument, but to me it seems to ascribe too much agency to 18th and 19th century politicians. I tend to think they were mainly riding the tides of social change; yielding to change and pressure rather than moulding it. The classic work on this is Barrington Moore's Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy. From what I recall after half a century, you tend to end up with authoritarian government or revolution if the social model remains aristocracy + peasantry, with only a small, constricted middle class. But if the traders, industrialists and professions were allowed to grow and share power, then liberal democracy could take root. Of course, every country and society is different, but the general idea seems sound. I don't think any politicians in England were saying, "let's promote the middle classes to head off revolution." It's just the way things developed, in the complicated interplay of industrialisation, social change and political development. somerjohn I was intending to say exactly this. I wasn't intending to ascribe too much agency to the tories of the time but they did accept the Great Reform Act and the Chartists were not crushed by violence, the Corn Laws stopped cheap imported corn. They therefore yielded to change thereby avoiding revolution. Contrast this with what happened in Russia. |
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Post by Danny on May 11, 2022 17:13:42 GMT
Watching some news from Ukraine, is there now some more of the traditional reporters following the troops, showing how well we are doing? Is that indicative of a change in how the war is going?
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Post by bardin1 on May 11, 2022 17:16:42 GMT
When I was a young kid in the 80s and at Uni in the 90s being called 'posh' was a grave insult and sounding 'posh' was something no-one aspired to hence the mockney and other exaggerated regional accents of 90s Britpop bands. We believed (naively or not) in the idea of the classless society. The 'classless society' wasn't something that came from a LOC or socialist place, but, was coined by tory prime minister, John Major. ...and the britpop bands you speak of were guitar indie bands, many of which had been around for years, some since the late 70's/early 80's, whose records charted slightly higher each time, below the top 40, before finally breaking through (Sit Down by James being a classic example, first released and sinking without trace in 1986 and first 'charting' on it's first reissue on indie label, Rough Trade, in 1988 making number 77). ...and singing in your own accents is nothing new....even The Proclaimers did it! Musically, including the accents, various bands output can be traced back to the artists that influenced them. Carter's output took the punk rock of Alternative TV and added pop hooks...and both Pulp and Blur were so obviously influenced by Jilted John (yes, him of the self titled 'Gordon Is A Moron' song). Listen to this and tell me you can't hear a 14 year old Jarvis Cocker in there... Don't forget Lonnie Donegan's Old man, and John Cooper Clarke with Beasley Street as precursors (and of course the Kinks) |
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Post by JohnC on May 11, 2022 17:25:40 GMT
Although one of those 'children of the working class' (my father was a 'Bermondsey Boy') and after he died my mother went back into service in the mid-1950s because she felt that was the best way she could provide for me (board and far better lodging provided than we were used to), the money she earned from part-time waitressing being offset by a reduction in her widow's pension after the pension people somehow found out she had a job. Anyway, she certainly didn't inculcate in me a deference to the gentry or wealthy business people in whose houses we lived. (I still have the letter though which one of them (very much gentry) sent the nine-year-old me after we left saying how sorry he was we had moved on and wishing me all the best for the future). I may have left those working class roots behind (my sons earn incredibly - to me - high salaries in the City and software engineering), but I and they still vote Labour (though I suspect one of them now living in Twickenham may have voted LibDem in the recent local elections). I think you were lucky. Maybe our childhood experiences differed because you were living in close proximity to the "gentry" and saw them warts and all. We had no real contact with rich people and were slightly afraid of them. You think my mother having to go back into service makes me lucky? I think you've been watching too much Downton Abbey. I came home from school one day to find my mother packing. She had finally had enough of her employer's wife's drinking, so I was off again to yet another school. |
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Post by crossbat11 on May 11, 2022 17:29:37 GMT
My Ode to ColinColin, Colin. it's good that he's back, it's good that he's back. Colin, Colin. it's good that he's back, it's good that he's back. Did you miss him, yeah, while he was away, did you hang his picture on your wall Did you kiss him, yeah, every single day, although he couldn't kiss me at all. And did you love him, yeah, like a good little boy, Did you tell that naughty boy not to post, did you love him, yeah, in my little world, Although you couldn't read him at all, although you couldn't read him at all.... (alright, not exactly Roger Waters, but Paul Gadd had his moments.) Bloody disgraceful and utterly disrespectful. (What’s the tune??) I'm afraid Mr Glitter is persona non Grata these days and his back catalogue is no longer freely available on either Spotify or ITunes. Therefore I can't direct you to the song. If I could hum it to you I would, but I'm afraid that's difficult to do via the medium of text. Suffice to say that the tune has spawned many a football terrace chant. |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on May 11, 2022 17:49:20 GMT
colin
Good to see you posting here again.
In gratitude, I will refrain from welcoming you back with the current version of the Scots classic "The Ball O Kirriemuir" that is circulating, as it is certainly not deferential to the Earl of Inverness, the UK Cabinet (or the Scots Cabinet either!)
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Post by EmCat on May 11, 2022 17:51:10 GMT
I see that the Prime Minister has promised to defend Sweden from attack. Well I think it will be the UK Military, not Boris personally. I sincerely hope so anyway. One of these days, some official treaty will be improperly translated, so that, far from it being the resources of one country helping out another, it is the signatory themselves who is personally required to provide whatever level of support the treaty demanded. (The precedent for such an error being that one of the copies of the Japanese surrender in WW2 was apparently back to front because one of the carbon papers was put in the wrong way round.) |
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Post by paulnish on May 11, 2022 17:54:02 GMT
I see that the Prime Minister has promised to defend Sweden from attack. I think he has got that confused with Swindon. Well I think it will be the UK Military, not Boris personally. I sincerely hope so anyway. But don't you think it's important? The Swedish PM seemed pleased with the arrangement. And it's very good we've forgiven them for 1810. No John. I think it is an attempt to distract people from what a shower of incompetents we have for our government. |
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patrickbrian
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These things seem small and undistinguishable, like far off mountains turned into clouds
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Post by patrickbrian on May 11, 2022 18:16:41 GMT
Alec
we might be moving towards a frozen conflict, when the fighting largely stops and no one really knows what to do.
Yes, well put. I've thought not quite from the beginning, but from when the Russian attempt to take Kiev failed, that that is the most likely medium term outcome. I expect the Russians will effectively annexe Donbas, and occupy the ruins of Mariupol, claim that as a victory, and sort of just sit there, perhaps firing the odd missile, rather like India/Pak in Kashmere.
That may of course be wildly optimistic.
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Post by shevii on May 11, 2022 18:25:57 GMT
Don't think this has been mentioned on here yet and I don't normally like to promote appeals but in case anyone hasn't seen this Redfield & Wilton are looking to get 20k followers on twitter. And the prize for us is that if they do this by Friday we can look forward to two polls a week from them! They are on 19.5k at the moment so tell your mates- only 500 to go!
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Post by crossbat11 on May 11, 2022 18:30:06 GMT
Don't think this has been mentioned on here yet and I don't normally like to promote appeals but in case anyone hasn't seen this Redfield & Wilton are looking to get 20k followers on twitter. And the prize for us is that if they do this by Friday we can look forward to two polls a week from them! They are on 19.5k at the moment so tell your mates- only 500 to go! Jeez, no. One a week is quite enough, thank you very much. And as for Twitter....... |
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Post by bardin1 on May 11, 2022 18:36:48 GMT
Alec we might be moving towards a frozen conflict, when the fighting largely stops and no one really knows what to do. Yes, well put. I've thought not quite from the beginning, but from when the Russian attempt to take Kiev failed, that that is the most likely medium term outcome. I expect the Russians will effectively annexe Donbas, and occupy the ruins of Mariupol, claim that as a victory, and sort of just sit there, perhaps firing the odd missile, rather like India/Pak in Kashmere. That may of course be wildly optimistic. I think the problem with that is they also occupy Kherson, and don't occupy all of Donbas yet. The danger is that they just keep shelling Odessa and hold referendums on the occupied areas. They can then claim that as a victory and it will certainly appear so to Russians. It's also a bit early to write off their efforts in Luhansk and Donetsk where they were making advances last week |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 19:04:19 GMT
colin / lululemonmustdobetter - I may well be wrong, but I'm not so sure that the war in Ukraine will drag on for a long time. At least, I'm not sure the scale and nature of the destruction will continue, because we do need to bear in mind that the war has already gone on for eight years, although limited to a much smaller theatre and with sporadic fighting. Russia is losing a phenomenal amount of men and machines here, and is making little or no progress. They've just past the 650 tank losses mark, from confirmed visual losses, so it will be higher than this, and they are being pushed backwards around Kharkiv, with reports now that they are having to withdraw units from their main thrust southwards from Izyum to bolster their defences to the rear. If the Kharkiv counter attack continues, it won't be long until we are looking at the threat of Russian troops being encircled. We are seeing their most advanced tanks get blown up, their modern naval vessels are being sunk on a regular basis, we're 75 days in and their air force still cannot dominate the airspace, even while Ukrainian pilots are flying below 100 feet and scoring hits inside Russia. The US now believes that junior and more senior officers are disobeying orders. There are images from Chinese broadcasters of the complete destruction of a Russian tank a couple of kilometres outside Mariopul - an area the Russians are meant to have had total control over for two months now. Absolutely nothing is working for the Russians. I can't see how Russia can sustain this situation for very long, and unless they are able to turn the tide and make some striking breakthrough within the next week or two (something that looks less and less likely by the hour) then I think soon we will be watching another Russian retreat, and battle for Putin to hold onto what he already has. I can't see Putin negotiating a permanent settlement, but we might be moving towards a frozen conflict, when the fighting largely stops and no one really knows what to do. I don't buy a wholesale Russian retreat. Sustainability is another matter-the most important one imo. If you look at the ISW reports and maps , whilst Russian progress in Donbas is slow -it is evident. Popasna & Yampil are flattened and occupied. How much of the Luhansk & Donetsk Oblasts are left to take actually. ? ( and what is Putin's objective there-or indeed Zelenskies Red Line ??) I grant that Ukraine are doing well in Kharkiv-but look at the South. Kherson Oblast being Russified as we speak-soon to be absorbed into Russia? And the coast of Zaporitzhia Oblast now secured. They just hit Odessa with seven hypersonic air launched missiles . With impunity. Does this look like Putin is set on taking Odessa and the SW coast ? Then what?-those troops and missiles in Transnistria get activated and bingo-he has a strangle hold on South & East Ukraine. I had no idea that Ukraine was such a significant grain exporter-talk of famine in Egypt & NE ASfrica because of Putin's blockade-global economic effects there. Any response to that from the West ?-that takes us to another level. As for sustainability-hydrocarbon revenues are key for Putin. What sign of those being reduced actually?. EU still trying to get Hungary to give them unanimity on an oil ban. As for gas- "Germany has warned that an immediate boycott of Russian gas and oil supplies could hurt its own population more than Vladimir Putin, bringing mass unemployment and poverty. “If we flip a switch immediately, there will be supply shortages, even supply stops in Germany,” the economic and energy minister Robert Habeck told public broadcaster ARD on Sunday, as Europe’s largest economy intensely searches to diversify its energy supplies in the medium term." Guardian. And Zelensky looks like he is tired of waiting :- www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ukraine-blocks-russian-gas-pipeline-to-western-europe-rz7httmkbAnd even if a "frozen stalemate" emerges-I don't think that is the end of fighting. On the ISW map at Kherson a new colour has appeared-blue hatched for "Partisan Warfare". Is the West ready to fund and supply Ukrainian Partisans , fighting in a de facto piece of Russia ? Too many questions for me-and not enough answers. Enormous risk and downside. At the Press Conference with BJ & the Finnish President, the latter said that Finns believed that Russia respected their neutrality as a free sovereign choice. But since Feb 24 they now realise that there is no such choice because Russia will invade a neighbour. I really believe that Feb 24 changed everything. We are not going back to Post Cold War. This is a new Iron Curtain emerging. Defence spending will need to rise across Western Europe. The cost of supporting Ukraine to the end will be astronomical. The effects of the conflict will impact our economies. |
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Post by mercian on May 11, 2022 19:17:54 GMT
I see that the Prime Minister has promised to defend Sweden from attack. I think he has got that confused with Swindon. Well I think it will be the UK Military, not Boris personally. I sincerely hope so anyway. But don't you think it's important? The Swedish PM seemed pleased with the arrangement. And it's very good we've forgiven them for 1810. Very foolish to have done this before they join NATO. If Putin invaded Sweden or Finland now, we'd have to defend them, but no-one else would. Pointless and dangerous grandstanding. |
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Post by Danny on May 11, 2022 19:31:28 GMT
Conor Burns being interviewed on CH4 news about unilaterally changing the northern Ireland agreement. He does sound like he has been plotting with the DUP to engineer a crisis in N. Irish government as a pretext for action. Very Putinesque.
Guess we can look forward to another hit to the Uk economy.
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Post by Danny on May 11, 2022 19:32:45 GMT
Very foolish to have done this before they join NATO. If Putin invaded Sweden or Finland now, we'd have to defend them, but no-one else would. Pointless and dangerous grandstanding. Didnt we already sign an agreement to defend Ukraine? How's that going? |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 19:35:16 GMT
crossbat11 “ I'm afraid Mr Glitter is persona non Grata these days and his back catalogue is no longer freely available on either Spotify or ITunes. Therefore I can't direct you to the song. If I could hum it to you I would, but I'm afraid that's difficult to do via the medium of text. Suffice to say that the tune has spawned many a football terrace chant.” ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………. Can’t place the tune - thank goodness. However, one of your best chums - well, your only chum to be more accurate - is a big fan of the new, popular singing sensation Lonnie Donegan and has sent me this song, written especially for you. It has to be sung in that lovable Sahf Lundun cockney accent that we all know and love ❤️. “Batty can’t play footy, ‘e’s oany got one leg And if you fink that’s bad enough ‘e’s not right in the ‘ed ‘E carn’t play cricket neever, ‘e’s really not much cop But ‘e sometimes fools the batsman wiv ‘is slow paffetic ‘op.” There are more verses but I’m not posting those as they are quite unkind about you.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 19:41:38 GMT
Well I think it will be the UK Military, not Boris personally. I sincerely hope so anyway. But don't you think it's important? The Swedish PM seemed pleased with the arrangement. And it's very good we've forgiven them for 1810. Very foolish to have done this before they join NATO. If Putin invaded Sweden or Finland now, we'd have to defend them, but no-one else would. Pointless and dangerous grandstanding. I think he simply implied “assistance”. Meaningless in other words. |
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Post by caroline on May 11, 2022 19:50:16 GMT
I think you were lucky. Maybe our childhood experiences differed because you were living in close proximity to the "gentry" and saw them warts and all. We had no real contact with rich people and were slightly afraid of them. You think my mother having to go back into service makes me lucky? I think you've been watching too much Downton Abbey. I came home from school one day to find my mother packing. She had finally had enough of her employer's wife's drinking, so I was off again to yet another school. No that isn't what I meant at all. I thought you were saying you had a more rounded experience of social interaction and didn't grow up with the inferiority complex a lot of working class kids grow up with. Clearly I misunderstood the point you were making. Sorry. I haven't watched Downton Abbey but I doubt very much if it is a good reflection of working class life. |
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Post by crossbat11 on May 11, 2022 20:02:02 GMT
crofty
Nice dedicated ditty. Thanks.
By the way, you want to see me gorblimey trousers I'm having to wear over my swollen knee. I look a proper narner, I'll tell you.
Never lived in a council flat, though. Sadly.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 20:09:35 GMT
crofty Nice dedicated ditty. Thanks. By the way, you want to see me gorblimey trousers I'm having to wear over my swollen knee. I look a proper narner, I'll tell you. Never lived in a council flat, though. Sadly. Why didn’t you “like” it then? I need all the reassurance I can get mate. Maybe I will do a second verse about your part-time canal path cleaning job. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on May 11, 2022 20:21:45 GMT
Well I think it will be the UK Military, not Boris personally. I sincerely hope so anyway. But don't you think it's important? The Swedish PM seemed pleased with the arrangement. And it's very good we've forgiven them for 1810. Very foolish to have done this before they join NATO. If Putin invaded Sweden or Finland now, we'd have to defend them, but no-one else would. Pointless and dangerous grandstanding. I agree its is typical Johnsonian grandstanding, but in the improbable event Russia attacked Sweden or Finland we would certainly not be the only ones defending them. Both countries already have defence cooperation agreements with Denmark and Norway for a start. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Defence_CooperationIn any event Russia can barely find enough troops for Ukraine; there is zero chance of them attacking anyone else at present. |
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