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Post by barbara on May 11, 2022 12:37:58 GMT
'Champagne socialist' is a lazy trope, not seen any evidence that it is even correct in terms of what Starmer's preferred drink of choice is. Also not even sure Starmner would now describe himself as socialist! That aside if those on the left have little money they are accused of the 'politics of envy', taking money away from those at the top financial end of society. If they have done well they are accused of being 'champagne socialists', they really can't win. Better that a rich socialist drinks champagne and votes for policies that will help those less fortunate themselves to have a better lifestyle than a rich capitalist who votes for policies that increase his own wealth at the expense of those less fortunate than himself. |
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patrickbrian
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Post by patrickbrian on May 11, 2022 12:38:12 GMT
Robbiealive "a lack of revolution, the one undisputed aspect of British exceptionalism," I don't get this. What about Cromwell? They chopped off the king's head! Or was that too long ago to count? Correct me if you think I'm wrong but it wasn't so much a ground up revolution as a civil war within the ruling class? There were fringe elements like the Levellers but the restoration put paid to all that. Same with the 'Glorious revolution', more shuffling of the ruling classes than anything else. I think you could say the same abut the French Revolution. Danton, Robespierre - they were lawyers, weren't they? Animal farm comes to mind....I'm not sure how successful bloody revolutions have ever been in really shifting the status quo. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. |
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Post by ladyvalerie on May 11, 2022 12:45:13 GMT
Meanwhile the right wing media is losing it's collective shit as Kier Starmer answers the question they demanded he answered. In a truly astounding act of reverse ferreting this has transposed from essential to a disgraceful act that's aimed to put pressure on the police ( derr!) Personally I think it's a shrewd move with the added benefit it's the correct and honourable thing to do. You’d think a queens council who received a knighthood for his services as DPP understand the laws and their application better than a clown who writes them and then claims ‘he didn’t know he was breaking the very rules he wrote and asked others to follow. Starmer is no fool. He has offered a resignation knowing that it will never come to pass. Johnson will lose even more integrity and Starmer’s stock will rise even more as a consequence. I’ve never subscribed to the view that Starmer lacks confidence and finds speaking in public difficult. I thought he played a blinder 😄😃😀 |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 12:48:09 GMT
Welcome back colin - good to see you haven't lost your distain for us lefties.
On a serious note, the UK (as are other nations) is currently going through profound economic, social and demographic changes as well as political realignment. I think it highly unlikely that Labour will ever be able to regain the level of support it had say 20-30 years ago in its former heartlands. The conditions that created it just no longer exist. That's not to say Labour cant win there - they just need to win back a sufficient %.
The Tories are facing similar challenges in some of their former heartlands - I can see the possibility that once true blue suburban areas such as Epsom become competitive. There just as many inconsistencies on the Tory overall positioning as there are in Labour, and the Tories do not posses some inherent consistent superior knowledge of the true nature of the electorate and people in general. Sentiment amongst the electorate can change rapidly - and I easily can see scenarios in which the Tories become out of step and out of date (its happened before). I don't have disdain for Left inclined voters at all. What I was trying to respond to was the disdain implicit in some of the remarks posted here about the so -called English Working Class. In particular, I took issue with the notion that their social attitudes and voting habits are a product of their "deference" for the upper classes. I posted a link to a study of the decline in such deference over the last 50 years or so. My response to Alec was in some alignment with a recent post of yours in which you cautioned against the "scoffing" of " Educated MC Voters" about Brexit voters. I have not argued, and do not believe that "the Tories posses some inherent consistent superior knowledge of the true nature of the electorate and people in general.". It is obvious from my post to Alec that I find such nice tidy classifications and supposed characteristics as highly dubious. I think that the Conservative/Liberal axis for both Economic and Social opinion doesn't represent a binary choice-but a sliding scale -in both directions. I agree totally with the message inherent in your post that both political parties face huge changes in the circumstances, and therefore attitudes and opinions, of voters. I don't think anyone yet understands what economic damage to households will be done by the combined effects of double digit inflation and higher interest rates. And the War in Europe looks increasingly like a continuing feature-with all the damage and disruption and cost which that will bring to the whole Continent. ( I just read that German TUs are warning that a 100% switch from Russian Gas will cost 500k German jobs.-so much changed on Feb 24-and we cannot know what the extent is yet) |
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Post by laszlo4new on May 11, 2022 12:53:24 GMT
1648 was a revolution. There were elements of a civil war, but it was largely about the absolutistic monarchy. As to the war within the ruling class - it is just the wrong expression. All the bourgeois revolutions (1648, 1789, 1848, 1918 in some countries), represented progression even if they were about replacement of one exploitive class with another. If I can find the time I may write on Marx and classes. It's good to see colin back. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 11, 2022 12:53:48 GMT
I understand that the BBC have selected the excellent ( according to my kids) young actor Ncuti Gatwa as the next iteration of Dr Who. The doctor will be available in early 2023. Which isn't bad by my local surgery standards. This isnt really a joke. Instead of throwing away half a trillion pounds on useless covid interventions which didnt do any good, we could have spent that money on a program of upgrading the NHS, and it seems in particular its staff. The shortage of GPs has gone on getting worse for decades and continues to do so. No one is willing to do something about it. I posted above a story this morning about shortage of cancer specialists, but I'm sure its gong to apply to just about any specialty. Voters have stopped worrying about the NHS because they have perceived it is stressed by Covid. In reality it could have coped a lot better with that if hadnt started off with staff shortages and under resourced.
The last labour adminstration had been catching up spending on the NHS. The current conservative one called a halt to that. Its their fault. And then they add insult to injury by spending a King's ransom on health but squandering it.
Covid management had been about appearing to do good, but as usual more about the spin than actual gain for real people. And made a few millionairs in the process Nowhere else does one see such deference at work" - Certainly no where else in Europe. Probably a consequence of us 'winning' WW2. The old regime was shaken but after throwing a welfare state and cheap housing at the masses...managed to cling on. Starmer is no fool. He has offered a resignation knowing that it will never come to pass. Johnson will lose even more integrity and Starmer’s stock will rise even more as a consequence. I was wondering about the timing of this. It doesnt look as if this story is running well for Johnson just now, but it has had the benefit at least of moving debate along from the rather dismal election results. If there's a good time for bad news, it must be to deflect from worse news. |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 12:54:16 GMT
I think if you are trying to claim that there isn't a strong streak of deference that runs through British political history, I think you're on a sticky wicket. Of course-but I dispute your view that it still informs the attitudes ( and votes) of large numbers of voters. I gave you a link to a study of the last 50 years , whose conclusion includes this quote :- "The conclusion summarizes the overall arguments of the book, examining how vernacular discourses of class changed between 1968 and 2000, and what the implications were for politics. It argues that rather than searching for a decline or persistence of class identities in this period, it is more important to look at how discourses of class changed, and how class identities and political attitudes were transformed by the decline of deference." |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on May 11, 2022 12:59:06 GMT
An interesting and considered analysis here of the issues facing the Conservative Party, particularly relevant to some of the above discussions
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Post by ladyvalerie on May 11, 2022 13:01:14 GMT
@ Alec, DOMJG, Mr POOTER (snide as ever), etc. I posted a lot in the past about the possible effects that a lack of revolution, the one undisputed aspect of British exceptionalism, has had on modern British political culture. History is about causation: and most problems of causation are too complex to be satisfactorily analysed in this kind of forum. Explaining why things didn't happen, in this case a Revolution, is even more difficult. The crucial period for its non-appearance would be 1790-1848 & I don't think we get v far by stray references to village cricket matches, Jane Austen or even the coercive force of the British state. States with far more coercive apparatuses have been overthrown. But without writing a long essay it is hard to see how I or anyone else can do better. One clear effect of the lack of Revolution is that we are lumbered with our outmoded & ineffective political institutions. These have contributed to our poor relative post-war record of economic growth, mainly achieved under Tory governments. The crucial index of economic achievement is labour productivity & this has been stagnant for years. The Tory government's chief task is to concentrate power in its own hands & protect personal and corporate wealth & thrives on inequality: as we have seen with the failure of Brexit -- a p[ower-grab --and the levelling-up agenda, a joke. Most people defer to and in fact venerate our institutions because they are seen as the cause, indeed the bedrock of our non-revolutionised political stability: when in they are of course an effect not a cause. They have been gradually modified to absorb new interest groups but we have preserved an adversarial political system, in which most people at any one time are unrepresented & frustrated, which even the most ROC commentators would have to admit has not delivered the goods. Our institutions have even failed to provide checks on corruption and bad governance: witness the attacks on an independent judiciary, on the right to protest, & at even at the most basic level the handing out of Covid contracts to Johnson's, Gove's, & Cummings's mates nd titles and vital political appointments made on the basis of party political Now look, Robbie. You must know that when a ROC pops in, to spray a few insults, it’s de rigueur to form a welcoming committee. You know Colin would do the same for you. |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 13:09:25 GMT
but I’m sure the contemptuous sarcasm has been sorely missed by all….  Too kind..........but I am not in the same class as you in the "contemptuous sarcasm" stakes. Two recent examples of your consummate skill come to mind:- "The art of detailed political analysis isn’t dead" "What a shame you’re not in charge of it all." Both addressed to Graham-who was presumably suitable chastened  |
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Post by alec on May 11, 2022 13:09:32 GMT
colin - "Of course-but I dispute your view that it still informs the attitudes ( and votes) of large numbers of voters." I don't think it does, and I was actually trying to flag up birdseye's rather simplistic notion of 'champagne socialist' as an example of that kind of wrong headed thinking. The tone of that particular post was that Starmer couldn't represent the common person 'cos he is a bit posh, which I found amusing, considering who the PM is.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 11, 2022 13:12:30 GMT
Oh colin I have missed you.The disdain/distain comment was in jest (thought that was clear by the next para starting with 'On a serious note,...'.
I agree with you in regards to deference (in fact you could argue for that section of the electorate if they previously paid deference to anyone it was the Labour party). That's not to say deference does not play a strong role in our society or history but I think there is a tendency to over play it in regards to both.
Re the Tories, I wasn't seeking to put words in your mouth, but as you say point out that both parties face a similar challenge in adapting to what is a period of extreme flux. But historically the Tory party has proven itself more adaptable to change than its rivals - but that is not a guarantor that they will necessarily do so this time round.
As far as the war is concerned, it does seem to be panning out as I feared into a potentially long and drawn out conflict, the eventual outcome and implications of which increasingly become difficult to predict.
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Post by alec on May 11, 2022 13:29:29 GMT
This bizarre government lurches on from one side of the aisle to the other - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61400935Once it was how we had to get the planning system moving, now you get a vote on your neighbours extension |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 13:33:45 GMT
But historically the Tory party has proven itself more adaptable to change than its rivals - but that is not a guarantor that they will necessarily do so this time round.
As far as the war is concerned, it does seem to be panning out as I feared into a potentially long and drawn out conflict, the eventual outcome and implications of which increasingly become difficult to predict. Yes -and Yes. Uncertain times indeed. I feel for my grandchildren. They have no idea what "normal" mortgage repayments look like. Actually I think my children may have forgotten. ! |
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Post by Mark on May 11, 2022 13:36:36 GMT
When I was a young kid in the 80s and at Uni in the 90s being called 'posh' was a grave insult and sounding 'posh' was something no-one aspired to hence the mockney and other exaggerated regional accents of 90s Britpop bands. We believed (naively or not) in the idea of the classless society. The 'classless society' wasn't something that came from a LOC or socialist place, but, was coined by tory prime minister, John Major. ...and the britpop bands you speak of were guitar indie bands, many of which had been around for years, some since the late 70's/early 80's, whose records charted slightly higher each time, below the top 40, before finally breaking through (Sit Down by James being a classic example, first released and sinking without trace in 1986 and first 'charting' on it's first reissue on indie label, Rough Trade, in 1988 making number 77). ...and singing in your own accents is nothing new....even The Proclaimers did it! Musically, including the accents, various bands output can be traced back to the artists that influenced them. Carter's output took the punk rock of Alternative TV and added pop hooks...and both Pulp and Blur were so obviously influenced by Jilted John (yes, him of the self titled 'Gordon Is A Moron' song). Listen to this and tell me you can't hear a 14 year old Jarvis Cocker in there... www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGWP-hHOL7o |
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on May 11, 2022 13:37:46 GMT
Crofty I have been thinking hard about yr "n" problem nd & yr dislike of "n" for "and". Would "nd" be a satisfactory compromise Why not "&" -- I know it's two keypresses, but it seems the obvious answer to me. |
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Post by robbiealive on May 11, 2022 13:51:30 GMT
I'd like to take up the comments on Revoultion etc but it's complicated & needs time to think.
By Revolution one includes the collapse of the ruling class/state which is normally precipitated by War not Revolution, tho the two may coincide.
One example of the non-revolutionised state clinging to its original institutions is the USA, whose government has not collapsed since independence. From the outside it's burdened with this politically nativist veneration for its original institutions which is now proving dangerous. A Senate & Supreme Court designed by the elite to curb democracy in the late eighteenth century are now doing so in vastly different circumstances. States with tiny populations and second-rate supreme judges, political appointees, now determine vast areas of policy & governance. One Democratic Senator holds up massive legislatiion. What could be more absurd?
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 11, 2022 14:19:39 GMT
Robbiealive "a lack of revolution, the one undisputed aspect of British exceptionalism," I don't get this. What about Cromwell? They chopped off the king's head! Or was that too long ago to count? |
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Post by JohnC on May 11, 2022 14:30:20 GMT
“Deference” is/was a characteristic inculcated into the children of the working class in the post war period, toff your cap to the land owner, sit up straight in class and don’t question the teacher. Work hard, know your place and be grateful for the food on your plate, those in Africa are starving. I think things have changed a bit since then. In the postwar settlement, free health care, expanded public education, a minimal social security safety net, strong trade unions gave people some sense of security. Radicals angry at the social injustices were side lined, punished with ridicule, had their careers and sometimes their liberty threatened. That too has changed. Canvassing in the Local elections I met people who were not angry with the social system they were genuinely frightened. Working in more than one job, struggling to pay bills, knowing that income is not keeping up with expenditure and fearful of debt. No energy to engage in community activity, not stupid enough to believe that voting a few more Labour councillors on to strap cashed local authorities would make an one iota of difference it was difficult to get these voters to the polls. If Labour do win the next election it will be with the votes of the middle classes, many of the “working class” have given up on the idea that voting can change anything. Labour cannot afford to alienate these middle class voters as they have done in the past, if they do they will loose again. If Labour win the next election the problems are on such a scale that only incremental change will be possible initially and Labour will fail again but anything would be better than what we have now. I think we should all be prepared for serious civil unrest in the coming winter and it will outside of the established political system. "Deference" wont be its defining characteristic and the new bill to deter social protest will be draconian in its effect. Although one of those 'children of the working class' (my father was a 'Bermondsey Boy') and after he died my mother went back into service in the mid-1950s because she felt that was the best way she could provide for me (board and far better lodging provided than we were used to), the money she earned from part-time waitressing being offset by a reduction in her widow's pension after the pension people somehow found out she had a job. Anyway, she certainly didn't inculcate in me a deference to the gentry or wealthy business people in whose houses we lived. (I still have the letter though which one of them (very much gentry) sent the nine-year-old me after we left saying how sorry he was we had moved on and wishing me all the best for the future). I may have left those working class roots behind (my sons earn incredibly - to me - high salaries in the City and software engineering), but I and they still vote Labour (though I suspect one of them now living in Twickenham may have voted LibDem in the recent local elections). |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 11, 2022 14:44:29 GMT
neilj Looks like Gove had a quick line before venturing out to spout bollocks. Attachments:
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 11, 2022 14:44:56 GMT
I agree totally with the message inherent in your post that both political parties face huge changes in the circumstances, and therefore attitudes and opinions, of voters. I don't think anyone yet understands what economic damage to households will be done by the combined effects of double digit inflation and higher interest rates. And the War in Europe looks increasingly like a continuing feature-with all the damage and disruption and cost which that will bring to the whole Continent. ( I just read that German TUs are warning that a 100% switch from Russian Gas will cost 500k German jobs.-so much changed on Feb 24-and we cannot know what the extent is yet) yes, that. But I would add Brexit is a ticking bomb which continues to place the UK uniquely worse than similar countries. Or maybe a better analogy is an acid bath thrown across our entire economy, which continues remorselessly to dissolve it. There was no good time to leave the EU, but we may well have chosen a particularly bad one. Transitioning from fossil fuels to renewables is being handled very badly by world governments and has itself created some of our current problem too. The inflationary crises of the 70s were caused by world fuel hikes, and we have artifically created another such event. Covid of course was a total own goal which need have had only minor economic impact, but we chose to make it the source of a world recession. Thats all very aspirational to try to save lives, but when it turns out you never had the money to do that, it becomes clear it was very, very foolish. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 11, 2022 14:54:20 GMT
Once it was how we had to get the planning system moving, now you get a vote on your neighbours extension The article you linked says they propose abolishing planning notices stuck to lamp posts and replace them with an internet noticeboard. Perhaps they are hoping that if the neighbours do not find out you are planning an extension, they will not exercise their new veto. |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 11, 2022 14:54:33 GMT
Gove isn't the only member of the regime appearing to be On a different planet today. Lunatic brexitanian Lee Anderson was merrily spouting that there's no need for food banks if people just learn to cook properly."We show them how to cook cheap and nutritious meals on a budget. We can make a meal for about 30p a day, and this is cooking from scratch. " Interesting and what precisely can you prepare and cook from scratch for 30 fricking p. "Here you are children eat your quarter potato and baked Attachment Deleted bean!" As Spaffer spaffs in with his assertion that the Good Friday Agreement is paramount so he's going to undermine it by breaking the northern Ireland protocol ffs! Not to be outdone Spaffer out Spaffs himself and says he's moved on from law breaking because Ukraine and stuff! If this were an edition of the thick of it it would be regarded as too far fetched. |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 14:56:26 GMT
Crofty I have been thinking hard about yr "n" problem nd & yr dislike of "n" for "and". Would "nd" be a satisfactory compromise Why not "&" -- I know it's two keypresses, but it seems the obvious answer to me. Let’s put it to a vote. |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 15:02:10 GMT
but I’m sure the contemptuous sarcasm has been sorely missed by all…. Too kind..........but I am not in the same class as you in the "contemptuous sarcasm" stakes. Two recent examples of your consummate skill come to mind:- "The art of detailed political analysis isn’t dead" "What a shame you’re not in charge of it all." Both addressed to Graham-who was presumably suitable chastened  That’s very generous of you Colin - but also rather modest, on balance. Anyway, I’m pleased you’re back and presumably feeling well (?) and I hope your wife - who you mentioned was ill - is the same. Cheers, Paul |
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Post by Old Southendian on May 11, 2022 15:07:16 GMT
Once it was how we had to get the planning system moving, now you get a vote on your neighbours extension The article you linked says they propose abolishing planning notices stuck to lamp posts and replace them with an internet noticeboard. Perhaps they are hoping that if the neighbours do not find out you are planning an extension, they will not exercise their new veto. Is there a "Beware of the leopard" sign involved anywhere? |
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wb61
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Post by wb61 on May 11, 2022 15:15:00 GMT
When I was a young kid in the 80s and at Uni in the 90s being called 'posh' was a grave insult and sounding 'posh' was something no-one aspired to hence the mockney and other exaggerated regional accents of 90s Britpop bands. We believed (naively or not) in the idea of the classless society. The 'classless society' wasn't something that came from a LOC or socialist place, but, was coined by tory prime minister, John Major. ...and the britpop bands you speak of were guitar indie bands, many of which had been around for years, some since the late 70's/early 80's, whose records charted slightly higher each time, below the top 40, before finally breaking through (Sit Down by James being a classic example, first released and sinking without trace in 1986 and first 'charting' on it's first reissue on indie label, Rough Trade, in 1988 making number 77). ...and singing in your own accents is nothing new....even The Proclaimers did it! Musically, including the accents, various bands output can be traced back to the artists that influenced them. Carter's output took the punk rock of Alternative TV and added pop hooks...and both Pulp and Blur were so obviously influenced by Jilted John (yes, him of the self titled 'Gordon Is A Moron' song). Listen to this and tell me you can't hear a 14 year old Jarvis Cocker in there... www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGWP-hHOL7oHi Mark, raining like hell this morning in Swansea but things much improved this afternoon, there is a Wednesday quiz in the No Sign, but I think if you said John Major as the answer to who coined "the Classless Society" you would be wrong. I thought it was actually Karl Marx when he wrote about he stages of societal development from "classless" tribal, through hierarchical feudal, bourgeoisie, etc to a final classless communism. Then again I might be wrong! I often am. |
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wb61
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Post by wb61 on May 11, 2022 15:17:57 GMT
The article you linked says they propose abolishing planning notices stuck to lamp posts and replace them with an internet noticeboard. Perhaps they are hoping that if the neighbours do not find out you are planning an extension, they will not exercise their new veto. Is there a "Beware of the leopard" sign involved anywhere? brilliant I had forgotten that For the uninitiated Douglas Adams, Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy “But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.” |
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Post by paulnish on May 11, 2022 15:22:16 GMT
I see that the Prime Minister has promised to defend Sweden from attack.
I think he has got that confused with Swindon.
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on May 11, 2022 15:22:28 GMT
Is there a "Beware of the leopard" sign involved anywhere? :-)
I think they've lost the key to the filing cabinet. |
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