7-Feb-2022 : LAB: 42 / CON: 32 / LDEM: 9 / GRN: 6

[lululemonmustdobetter]

Hi caroline

"Deference" wont be its defining characteristic and the new bill to deter social protest will be draconian in its effect.'

Well I would argue the British state's often ruthless repressive apparatus is just as much a factor as deference coupled to a very effective propaganda machine (Goebbels said he learned everything from the British).

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/may/11/it-was-as-if-he-set-out-to-destroy-my-sanity-how-the-spy-cops-lied-their-way-into-womens-hearts-and-beds

However, I do discount the notion that the UK (particularly England) has always been an inherently conservative country - our history just doesn't bare it out, we have had numerous revolutions/revolts and social upheavals of different forms over the past millennium and I don't think the modern Brit is particularly deferential.  May be misinformed (eg that Johnson actually went to Easton as we as Cameron) or subject to certain prejudices - but I don't think Lab lost n '19 due to deference.

Welcome back colin - good to see you haven't lost your distain for us lefties. 

On a serious note, the UK (as are other nations) is currently going through profound economic, social and demographic changes as well as political realignment. I think it highly unlikely that Labour will ever be able to regain the level of support it had say 20-30 years ago in its former heartlands. The conditions that created it just no longer exist. That's not to say Labour cant win there - they just need to win back a sufficient %.

The Tories are facing similar challenges in some of their former heartlands - I can see the possibility that once true blue suburban areas such as Epsom become competitive. There just as many inconsistencies on the Tory overall positioning as there are in Labour, and the Tories do not posses some inherent consistent superior knowledge of the true nature of the electorate and people in general. Sentiment amongst the electorate can change rapidly - and I easily can see scenarios in which the Tories become out of step and out of date (its happened before).  

[hireton]

Interesting analysis of constituency vote by 3 categories of place of birth (Scotland, England and outside UK) in the 2021 Scottish GE.

It shows the SNP received a majority of votes from those born outside the UK, 47% from those born in Scotland and a plurality of the votes from those born in England.

Chart of results in this tweet from Angus Robertson:

[shevii]

Another one glad to see colin back. We don't have to always agree with what you say but you raise well argued points and bring balance to the board and issues to think about rather than an echo chamber.

[domjg]

May 11, 2022 9:48:17 GMT moby said:

May 11, 2022 7:55:17 GMT domjg said:

"Nowhere else does one see such deference at work" - Certainly no where else in Europe.

I wonder about this sometimes. Deference is clearly rampant in the UK but I don't know enough about the subtlety of relationships and class in other countries to say. It's often unspoken and not all that visible?

From my experience of living in other Western European states I'd say it's far less prevalent and if seen based far less on traditional class affiliation. No where else I know of at least has such an obvious linguistic accent marker for a 'ruling class' such as has long existed here. 

Imo the lower level of deference is shown by greater political fluidity with none of the countries I know really having a political party like the Tories who so many consider to be the 'natural' governing party which is so bound up with the 'ruling' class. Even the 'Mittelstand' based CDU in Germany shares the 'natural' party role with the SPD.

[robbiealive]

@ Alec, DOMJG, Mr POOTER (snide as ever), etc.

I posted a lot in the past about the possible effects that a lack of revolution, the one undisputed aspect of British exceptionalism, has had on modern British political culture. History is about causation: and most problems of causation are too complex to be satisfactorily analysed in this kind of forum. Explaining why things didn't happen, in this case a Revolution, is even more difficult. The crucial period for its non-appearance would be 1790-1848 & I don't think we get v far by stray references to village cricket matches, Jane Austen or even the coercive force of the British state. States with far more coercive apparatuses have been overthrown. But without writing a long essay it is hard to see how I or anyone else can do better.

One clear effect of the lack of Revolution is that we are lumbered with our outmoded & ineffective political institutions. These have contributed to our poor relative post-war record of economic growth, mainly achieved under Tory governments. The crucial index of economic achievement is labour productivity & this has been stagnant for years. The Tory government's chief task is to concentrate power in its own hands & protect personal and corporate wealth & thrives on inequality: as we have seen with the failure of Brexit -- a p[ower-grab --and the levelling-up agenda, a joke.
Most people defer to and in fact venerate our institutions because they are seen as the cause, indeed the bedrock of our non-revolutionised political stability: when in they are of course an effect not a cause. They have been gradually modified to absorb new interest groups but we have preserved an adversarial political system, in which most people at any one time are unrepresented & frustrated, which even the most ROC commentators would have to admit has not delivered the goods. Our institutions have even failed to provide checks on corruption and bad governance: witness the attacks on an independent judiciary, on the right to protest, & at even at the most basic level the handing out of Covid contracts to Johnson's, Gove's, & Cummings's mates nd titles and vital political appointments made on the basis of party political donations.

[ladyvalerie]

Wordle 326 2/6

🟨🟨🟨⬜🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

[alec]

colin - really happy to see you return. There was some discussion that you may have left due to attacks from some on here, but when I read your posts immediately before you disappeared, I couldn't see any sign of that, and you have previously been a pretty robust poster. I was genuinely worried that something untoward may have happened to you, so good to see you back.

I generally try not to get bogged down in the working class identification issues that periodically surface, as I think they are largely pointless (I'm middle class and proud of it!, even though I haven't the faintest idea what it means). However, I think if you are trying to claim that there isn't a strong streak of deference that runs through British political history, I think you're on a sticky wicket. But you are right, I think, in that we shouldn't go too far down the road of assigning partisan support to class based concepts of identity.

I would say though, that it is a statement of fact - if viewed objectively - that Conservatives have been forgiven for their monumental disasters far more readily than Labour, and that is an effect we still see today.

[robbiealive]

Crofty

I have been thinking hard about yr "n" problem nd & yr dislike of "n" for "and". Would "nd" be a satisfactory compromise

[Deleted]

lululemonmustdobetter

“ Welcome back colin - good to see you haven't lost your distain for us lefties.”

It’s disDain actually that he hasn’t lost -  but I’m sure the contemptuous sarcasm has been sorely missed by all…. 

[Deleted]

May 11, 2022 10:38:34 GMT robbiealive said:

Crofty

I have been thinking hard about yr "n" problem nd & yr dislike of "n" for "and". Would "nd" be a satisfactory compromise

Just the number of letters in the above would be enough to write about thirty of the buggers. It is a silly affectation and you need to see me later in my office to explain yourself.

Your previous post was excellent by the way.

[moby]

May 11, 2022 10:19:06 GMT robbiealive said:

@ Alec, DOMJG, Mr POOTER (snide as ever), etc.

I posted a lot in the past about the possible effects that a lack of revolution, the one undisputed aspect of British exceptionalism, has had on modern British political culture. History is about causation: and most problems of causation are too complex to be satisfactorily analysed in this kind of forum. Explaining why things didn't happen, in this case a Revolution, is even more difficult. The crucial period for its non-appearance would be 1790-1848 & I don't think we get v far by stray references to village cricket matches, Jane Austen or even the coercive force of the British state. States with far more coercive apparatuses have been overthrown. But without writing a long essay it is hard to see how I or anyone else can do better.

One clear effect of the lack of Revolution is that we are lumbered with our outmoded & ineffective political institutions. These have contributed to our poor relative post-war record of economic growth, mainly achieved under Tory governments. The crucial index of economic achievement is labour productivity & this has been stagnant for years. The Tory government's chief task is to concentrate power in its own hands & protect personal and corporate wealth & thrives on inequality: as we have seen with the failure of Brexit -- a p[ower-grab --and the levelling-up agenda, a joke.
Most people defer to and in fact venerate our institutions because they are seen as the cause, indeed the bedrock of our non-revolutionised political stability: when in they are of course an effect not a cause. They have been gradually modified to absorb new interest groups but we have preserved an adversarial political system, in which most people at any one time are unrepresented & frustrated, which even the most ROC commentators would have to admit has not delivered the goods. Our institutions have even failed to provide checks on corruption and bad governance: witness the attacks on an independent judiciary, on the right to protest, & at even at the most basic level the handing out of Covid contracts to Johnson's, Gove's, & Cummings's mates nd titles and vital political appointments made on the basis of party political donations.

Totally agree with most of this. Regarding causation I do think there is something in the argument that the English state faced with revolution all over Europe gave away enough power to the growing mercantile class especially to avoid revolution? Not being subject to conquest has led to a complacency in this country which has allowed class deference to continue. Totally agree with the 'outmoded & ineffective institutions' and the connection with stagnant economic growth. Our institutions are archaic, the adversarial nature of politics and the legal system leaves many of us unrepresented and frustrated. How long can we continue with the adversarial nature of the Commons, how long can we continue with the winner takes all, first past the post voting system, the monarchy, unwritten constitution etc etc! 

[robbiealive]

May 11, 2022 10:37:56 GMT alec said:

 However, I think if you are trying to claim that there isn't a strong streak of deference that runs through British political history, I think you're on a sticky wicket. 

For God's sake. If the respect shown for monarchy & titles, they buy them!, doesn't indicate a wide streak of deference what does.

Take the two pics I saw yesterday. The Crown Prince opening Parliament, in uniform, weighed down by so many medals he looked like a Latin American dictator in an Opera Bouffe. Outside a Guards' band marched up & down wearing funny fur hats guarded by grim-looking armed cops. We're so used to this nonsense we don't even notice it. It does matter.

We need that French form of shock performance, I've forgotten what it's called, where artistry forces us to see old vices with new eyes. 

[Deleted]

robbiealive

“ We need that French form of shock performance, I've forgotten what it's called, where artistry forces us to see old vices with new eyes. ”

Madame Guillotine?

[johntel]

I really don't think the Great British Electorate preferred David Cameron to Gordon Brown and Ed Milliband, or Theresa May to Jeremy Corbyn, due to class deference.

Much more likely that the expanded home-owning middle-class believed that the Tories would be more likely to protect their interests. The subsequent decline of home ownership amongst younger people will kill them and will only be exacerbated by the measures announced yesterday - the only way to get more houses is to build more houses. 

[somerjohn]

Colin: "It has been a hoot to read this sort of stuff here.

The plaintive cry of the middle class liberal left , that the forelock tugging English peasantry refuse to vote Labour .

Why not try reading some serious consideration of the question and get up to date ?:-

Good to see you back.

And good to see you recommending Florence Sutcliffe-Braithwaite's Class, Politics, and the Decline of Deference in England, 1968-2000 which is the sort of analysis that others on the right might impatiently dismiss as airy-fairy intellectual posturing. If you've indeed read it, good on you.

It's interesting that the change FS-B reveals seems not so much a decline in working-class deference, as a decline in middle-class expectations of deference. It's that damned middle class going all egalitarian and "liberal left". Not to mention remainy.

[Deleted]

Anecdotal cost of living report. I was out and about in Richmond, last weekend. It's a leafy, outer London borough, very nice and very wealthy. We had a few beers first (exhilarating after nearly three years away!). The pub was fairly busy, but nothing like as rammed as it would have been on a Friday night a few years ago. Then off to Pizza Express for my obligatory Fiorentina Romana pizza. We often had to queue outside for a table on a Friday evening in the past, but walked straight in this time, with a choice of tables available. People still being reluctant to embrace the pre-Covid vibe or the disposable income dilemma starting to gain traction even in places like Richmond? You decide.

[neilj]

Saw Michael Gove's bizarre performance this morning, is he back on the white Bolivian marching powder?

[robbiealive]

May 11, 2022 11:22:03 GMT somerjohn said:

 Florence Sutcliffe-Braithwaite's Class, Politics, and the Decline of Deference in England, 1968-2000 which is the sort of analysis that others on the right might impatiently dismiss as airy-fairy intellectual posturing. If you've indeed read it, good on you.

Good to hear about this wonderful book. What does it say? 

[robbiealive]

May 11, 2022 11:17:37 GMT @crofty said:

robbiealive

“ We need that French form of shock performance, I've forgotten what it's called, where artistry forces us to see old vices with new eyes. ”

Madame Guillotine?

You have a way of puncturing pomposity -- in this case mine. 

I see Lady V is back on boasting about her Wordle performance. Did we get a report of her triumph yesterday. I don't recall it. 

[domjg]

May 11, 2022 11:25:56 GMT @isa said:

Anecdotal cost of living report. I was out and about in Richmond, last weekend. It's a leafy, outer London borough, very nice and very wealthy. We had a few beers first (exhilarating after nearly three years away!). The pub was fairly busy, but nothing like as rammed as it would have been on a Friday night a few years ago. Then off to Pizza Express for my obligatory Fiorentina Romana pizza. We often had to queue outside for a table on a Friday evening in the past, but walked straight in this time, with a choice of tables available. People still being reluctant to embrace the pre-Covid vibe or the disposable income dilemma starting to gain traction even in places like Richmond? You decide.

Possibly less the later in aptly named Richmond! God bless Pizza Express, for it's reliably decent Pizza and generally great service and atmosphere, especially with kids in tow. 
Having said that, if you're ever in Oxfordshire by far the best Pizza I have ever had in this country (and close to ever full stop)  is to be had at the incongruous location of the Pleasure Garden cafe at Blenheim Palace. Amazing..

[patrickbrian]

Robbiealive

"a lack of revolution, the one undisputed aspect of British exceptionalism,"

I don't get this. What about Cromwell? They chopped off the king's head! Or was that too long ago to count?

[somerjohn]

Moby: "I do think there is something in the argument that the English state faced with revolution all over Europe gave away enough power to the growing mercantile class especially to avoid revolution?"

I don't know what our historians will make of that argument, but to me it seems to ascribe too much agency to 18th and 19th century politicians. I tend to think they were mainly riding the tides of social change; yielding to change and pressure rather than moulding it.

The classic work on this is Barrington Moore's Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy. From what I recall after half a century, you tend to end up with authoritarian government or revolution if the social model remains aristocracy + peasantry, with only a small, constricted middle class. But if the traders, industrialists and professions were allowed to grow and share power, then liberal democracy could take root. Of course, every country and society is different, but the general idea seems sound.

I don't think any politicians in England were saying, "let's promote the middle classes to head off revolution." It's just the way things developed, in the complicated interplay of industrialisation, social change and political development.

[Mark]

lululemonmustdobetter said:

Surely you mean the White Rabbit and Queen of Hearts, unless it was actually a wardrobe and you enjoyed some lovely sweets on a sleigh with a very persuasive woman?

The classic here has to be from The Young Ones, when Vivyan accidentally finds himself in Narnia and has the following exchange with a woman on a carriage...

Queen - Hello little boy...would you like some turkish delight?
Vivyan - No thanks. You got any kebabs?

[caroline]

Robbiealive “History is about causation: and most problems of causation are too complex to be satisfactorily analysed in this kind of forum. Explaining why things didn't happen, in this case a Revolution, is even more difficult.”

I agree with your post. It is difficult to analyse anything in any depth on a site like this but some comments which might be worth considering. Marx argued that capitalism inherently contained its own seeds of destruction. Many have argued that Capitalism is flexible and will always adjust to prevent revolution. The history in Britain suggests that many compromises have been made between the proletariat and the ruling classes to alleviate “immisseration” and contain the necessity of severe repression by the state. I suggest that maybe things have changed.

The truly awful ravages of capitalism are now less constrained. It is interesting that even the bastions of giant energy companies are arguing that profits are excessive and gov. action is needed to alleviate the cost of energy for the poorest. Government seems to be taking no notice of this ie ignoring history as this government seems oblivious to any criticism of its policy from any quarter. The energy companies are particularly aware that if people can’t pay their bills cutting off supply is not an easy option. What is happening at the moment is that people who can’t pay their energy bills are having their debt reduced (or even cancelled) but then have to go onto prepaid meters and effectively cut themselves off from supply. This situation cannot continue indefinitely or become more widespread as people will literally die if we have a cold winter.
The other side of the equation is that as inequality and extreme poverty increases in Britain repression by the state is also increasing. The police and crimes bill will penalise social protest and all of the old checks and balances on state authoritarianism is being slowly removed or eroded. Even the right to vote with new laws requiring personal identification at polling stations to combat non existent fraud is aimed at voter repression. Curtailing the independent role of the Electoral Commission and intimidating the BBC, attacking the judiciary are all issue discussed on here before. What is happening is cumulative and really very serious. Maybe it wont lead to revolution but even this government is I think aware of the possibility of the return of street riots and civil disobedience on the horizon.
I am very pessimist about the future now which for an eternal optimist is quite depressing. More repressive governments than ours have, as you say, been overthrown but most Tory Governments in Britain have portrayed themselves as paternalistic and relied on the old concepts of deference and the class system has worked in their favour. No government in my lifetime have been so contemptuous of ordinary working people or displayed such blatant disregard for the principles of democracy and ethics of public service. They talk about a cost of living crisis but the crisis is much deeper than that.

[leftieliberal]

May 11, 2022 11:39:58 GMT patrickbrian said:

Robbiealive

"a lack of revolution, the one undisputed aspect of British exceptionalism,"

I don't get this. What about Cromwell? They chopped off the king's head! Or was that too long ago to count?

I recommend robbiealive reading Ian Dunt's "How to be a Liberal" which covers the English Civil War in Chapter 2. Liberalism gets its English roots from the Levellers. Until I read this, I also had no idea how important Harriet Taylor was in co-creating John Stuart Mill's published works.

[Deleted]

May 11, 2022 11:34:44 GMT robbiealive said:

May 11, 2022 11:17:37 GMT @crofty said:

robbiealive

“ We need that French form of shock performance, I've forgotten what it's called, where artistry forces us to see old vices with new eyes. ”

Madame Guillotine?

You have a way of puncturing pomposity -- in this case mine. 

I see Lady V is back on boasting about her Wordle performance. Did we get a report of her triumph yesterday. I don't recall it. 

I’ll check my scorecard Robbie - thankfully I keep a record of all of them to avoid having to scroll back through all the political drivel.

[domjg]

May 11, 2022 11:39:58 GMT patrickbrian said:

Robbiealive

"a lack of revolution, the one undisputed aspect of British exceptionalism,"

I don't get this. What about Cromwell? They chopped off the king's head! Or was that too long ago to count?

Correct me if you think I'm wrong but it wasn't so much a ground up revolution as a civil war within the ruling class? There were fringe elements like the Levellers but the restoration put paid to all that. Same with the 'Glorious revolution', more shuffling of the ruling classes than anything else. 

[lululemonmustdobetter]

May 11, 2022 10:42:33 GMT @crofty said:

lululemonmustdobetter

“ Welcome back colin - good to see you haven't lost your distain for us lefties.”

It’s disDain actually that he hasn’t lost -  but I’m sure the contemptuous sarcasm has been sorely missed by all…. 

Ah, but what if I was using the word it in its archaic form which means to stain to discolour? If you remember he went through a short period of writing in rainbow! 

[somerjohn]

RobbieAlive: Good to hear about this wonderful book. What does it say?

Well, it was Colin's recommendation, not mine. Perhaps he should have first dibs on delivering a synopsis or verdict.

Failing that, there's a useful review here:

www.guyortolano.com/s/Sutcliffe-Braithwaite.pdf

[Deleted]

May 11, 2022 11:39:53 GMT domjg said:

May 11, 2022 11:25:56 GMT @isa said:

Anecdotal cost of living report. I was out and about in Richmond, last weekend. It's a leafy, outer London borough, very nice and very wealthy. We had a few beers first (exhilarating after nearly three years away!). The pub was fairly busy, but nothing like as rammed as it would have been on a Friday night a few years ago. Then off to Pizza Express for my obligatory Fiorentina Romana pizza. We often had to queue outside for a table on a Friday evening in the past, but walked straight in this time, with a choice of tables available. People still being reluctant to embrace the pre-Covid vibe or the disposable income dilemma starting to gain traction even in places like Richmond? You decide.

Possibly less the later in aptly named Richmond! God bless Pizza Express, for it's reliably decent Pizza and generally great service and atmosphere, especially with kids in tow. 
Having said that, if you're ever in Oxfordshire by far the best Pizza I have ever had in this country (and close to ever full stop)  is to be had at the incongruous location of the Pleasure Garden cafe at Blenheim Palace. Amazing..

You'll get no argument from me about the PE experience! Thanks for the Blenheim tip, although Oxfordshire is a little off my beaten track.