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Post by crossbat11 on May 11, 2022 7:09:32 GMT
Just a bit of general advice based on years of experience of participating in discussions on this forum. Beware disappearing down ludicrous rabbit holes created by bullshit anecdotes.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on May 11, 2022 7:12:31 GMT
Gvernment has chickened out of plans to make getting planning consent for new homes easier. It seems to be trapped between the need to keep existing NIMBY home owners happy, and enable enough homes to be built, the lack of which is preventing people becoming home owners. A critical balance since con have, since Thatcher at least, reckoned they benefit from people owning their own homes. So upset the existing home owners who vote for you, or cut off your supply of new voters? Such a hard job picking which national policy will best benefit yourself. Indeed far from making it easier they have made it even more difficult with proposals for existing residents being given the right to vote and veto plans for extensions and housebuilding |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on May 11, 2022 7:14:25 GMT
Just a bit of general advice based on years of experience of participating in discussions on this forum. Beware disappearing down ludicrous rabbit holes created by bullshit anecdotes. I remember when younger falling down a rabbit hole and ended up seeing the Wizard of Oz |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 11, 2022 7:25:08 GMT
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Post by crossbat11 on May 11, 2022 7:26:13 GMT
Just a bit of general advice based on years of experience of participating in discussions on this forum. Beware disappearing down ludicrous rabbit holes created by bullshit anecdotes. I remember when younger falling down a rabbit hole and ended up seeing the Wizard of Oz I can do better than that. I went down one once and saw a senior shop steward standing to attention and saluting a former military officer turned production manager. If it was allegorical, what was it telling me? |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 11, 2022 7:29:03 GMT
I understand that the BBC have selected the excellent ( according to my kids) young actor Ncuti Gatwa as the next iteration of Dr Who.
The doctor will be available in early 2023.
Which isn't bad by my local surgery standards.
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Post by alec on May 11, 2022 7:33:02 GMT
There has always been that theme running through sections of what we commonly refer to as the 'working class' (however vague and ill defined that is) that dislikes those who climb the ladder. Historically, the UK populace has been far more keen to submit to the thinking that those from 'better' backgrounds are best placed to run things and make decisions, and that such engagement with managing your own lives and communities 'is not for the likes of you and me'. Indeed, talk of 'better backgrounds' and 'climbing the ladder' are all value laden expressions that feed into that sense of who should lead and who should follow.
I see this playing out in multiple ways at all sorts of levels. Like the local charity where the Winchester and Oxford former army officer doctor is invited to be chairman, because 'he knows how these things work', despite being the least suitable person for the role, with the poorest understanding of the issues the charity is seeking to address. Or the wealthy failed Prime Minister who lies and cheats, but who some people prefer over the honest son of working class parents from a background much like theirs, because the wealthy PM 'understands people like me'. Or in language and dialect - those panloafy Scots to whom speaking posh means sounding more English, or young black Britons today 'talking white' to dial down their ethnic accents, this sort of deference to those who are perceived as better than we are seeps through society. As a ruling party, throughout the last century the Conservatives have been guilty of repeated horrendous and catastrophic cock ups, economic, military and social, with Labour often having to pick up the pieces, but the judgement remains that Conservatives are 'the natural party of government'. Nowhere else does one see such deference at work.
Possible because we never had that revolution, Britain continues with that hidden assumption that the mass of us are here to be ruled over, that we get what we are given, and that we should be be distrustful of those of our own who achieve a higher station in life.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 7:48:19 GMT
Interesting comments even to a life long Tory. When I got my first job managing a production operation in a unionised environment, I was genuinelky shocked by the contempt that Union officials showed for the members I had working for me, and indeed the ganger man who provided the cheap casual labour we used as a top up was the local Labour lord mayor. In another situation I had to introduce my then new MD to our shop floor shop stewards. The MD was an ex Major from the Royal Horse Artillery, a very nice chap as it happened , but about as public school upper class as you could get. To my surprise the otherwise bloody minded very left wing shop stewards positively stood to attention for him and showed a degree of respect that I never imagined possible.
People are funny and dont neatly fit the class divisions of the left wing theorists. They want respect. They have aspirations and they dont want patronising by champagne socialists like Starmer or Blair or indded some of the poasters on here.
Birdseye your story is an interesting one and let's go back to base without any right or left theoretical assumptions. The bit I can't understand is why anyone would stand to attention for someone else; I mean why would these shop stewards feel in that way? Where did that behaviour response come from. It doesn't seem they knew the MD at all previously? Actually I assumed Birdseye's story was apocryphal. |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 11, 2022 7:48:38 GMT
Just a bit of general advice based on years of experience of participating in discussions on this forum. Beware disappearing down ludicrous rabbit holes created by bullshit anecdotes. I remember when younger falling down a rabbit hole and ended up seeing the Wizard of Oz |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 11, 2022 7:52:45 GMT
Hi nickp Actually I assumed Birdseye's story was apocryphal.
Is that a polite way of saying you thought it was actually a load of loblocks?
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steve
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Post by steve on May 11, 2022 7:54:44 GMT
pete The entirely predictable disastrous consequences of Brexit trundle on. But the " Brexit bonus" of being able to use it as cover for money generating schemes for the regime's tax dodging chums will be seen as win. After all if people wished to avoid the Brexit shit show they would have been rich enough to obtain non domicile status or buy permanent residency status in the European union.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 11, 2022 7:55:17 GMT
There has always been that theme running through sections of what we commonly refer to as the 'working class' (however vague and ill defined that is) that dislikes those who climb the ladder. Historically, the UK populace has been far more keen to submit to the thinking that those from 'better' backgrounds are best placed to run things and make decisions, and that such engagement with managing your own lives and communities 'is not for the likes of you and me'. Indeed, talk of 'better backgrounds' and 'climbing the ladder' are all value laden expressions that feed into that sense of who should lead and who should follow. I see this playing out in multiple ways at all sorts of levels. Like the local charity where the Winchester and Oxford former army officer doctor is invited to be chairman, because 'he knows how these things work', despite being the least suitable person for the role, with the poorest understanding of the issues the charity is seeking to address. Or the wealthy failed Prime Minister who lies and cheats, but who some people prefer over the honest son of working class parents from a background much like theirs, because the wealthy PM 'understands people like me'. Or in language and dialect - those panloafy Scots to whom speaking posh means sounding more English, or young black Britons today 'talking white' to dial down their ethnic accents, this sort of deference to those who are perceived as better than we are seeps through society. As a ruling party, throughout the last century the Conservatives have been guilty of repeated horrendous and catastrophic cock ups, economic, military and social, with Labour often having to pick up the pieces, but the judgement remains that Conservatives are 'the natural party of government'. Nowhere else does one see such deference at work. Possible because we never had that revolution, Britain continues with that hidden assumption that the mass of us are here to be ruled over, that we get what we are given, and that we should be be distrustful of those of our own who achieve a higher station in life. "Nowhere else does one see such deference at work" - Certainly no where else in Europe. |
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Post by crossbat11 on May 11, 2022 7:58:50 GMT
Hi nickp Actually I assumed Birdseye's story was apocryphal. Is that a polite way of saying you thought it was actually a load of loblocks? Lady Lulu of Lemon Are you accusing the good Captain of trading in porkies as well as fish fingers?? |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 11, 2022 7:59:02 GMT
That's exactly what I mean she writes about the social processes that prevented the revolution in Britain. She charts the rise of the merchant classes marrying into the gentility, also the fact that a relatively poor gentleman's daughter considers herself the equal of Darcy in status. Even the lower classes are very much part of her rural dynamic think of Mr Knightleys paternal care for his tenant farmers and workers. Many historians believe these were actual real devices and a reaction to events across the channel,in high society to prevent the English nobles also losing their heads 😉 And, whisper it not, but it's just possible that some of the gentry were actually nice people and cared about their tenants and other folks. I know that goes against the grain on here, but an example I know a bit about is Clovelly. Some time ago (maybe 100 years, maybe more? I can't find a reference to it online) there was a lot of unemployment, so the local squire paid the locals to build a new road down to the village even though there already was one. The new road is closed now, but I have driven down it. It was very precipitous and dangerous, but the point is that the squire had it built out of the goodness of his heart. Not all toffs are evil. Off with their heads! |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 11, 2022 8:00:43 GMT
Meanwhile the right wing media is losing it's collective shit as Kier Starmer answers the question they demanded he answered. In a truly astounding act of reverse ferreting this has transposed from essential to a disgraceful act that's aimed to put pressure on the police ( derr!)
Personally I think it's a shrewd move with the added benefit it's the correct and honourable thing to do.
You’d think a queens council who received a knighthood for his services as DPP understand the laws and their application better than a clown who writes them and then claims ‘he didn’t know he was breaking the very rules he wrote and asked others to follow.
Starmer is no fool. He has offered a resignation knowing that it will never come to pass. Johnson will lose even more integrity and Starmer’s stock will rise even more as a consequence.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 11, 2022 8:10:23 GMT
Hi nickp Actually I assumed Birdseye's story was apocryphal. Is that a polite way of saying you thought it was actually a load of loblocks? Lady Lulu of Lemon Are you accusing the good Captain of trading in porkies as well as fish fingers??
My apologies, but I have suddenly come under an affliction of faintness and must retire. |
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Post by wb61 on May 11, 2022 8:10:35 GMT
Deference to those who know better, Terry Pratchett (as always) deals with that: “The Empire's got something worse than whips all right. It's got obedience. Whips in the soul. They obey anyone who tells them what to do. Freedom just means being told what to do by someone different.” “I heard the Empire has a tyrannical and repressive government!" "What form of government is that?" said Ponder Stibbons. "A tautology," said the Dean" ― Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times According to Punch the Victorian working class were much less deferential www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/mar/22/simon-hoggart-sketch-ed-balls |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 8:32:29 GMT
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 11, 2022 8:50:41 GMT
Deference to those who know better, Terry Pratchett (as always) deals with that: “The Empire's got something worse than whips all right. It's got obedience. Whips in the soul. They obey anyone who tells them what to do. Freedom just means being told what to do by someone different.” “I heard the Empire has a tyrannical and repressive government!" "What form of government is that?" said Ponder Stibbons. "A tautology," said the Dean" ― Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times According to Punch the Victorian working class were much less deferential www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/mar/22/simon-hoggart-sketch-ed-ballsWhen I was a young kid in the 80s and at Uni in the 90s being called 'posh' was a grave insult and sounding 'posh' was something no-one aspired to hence the mockney and other exaggerated regional accents of 90s Britpop bands. We believed (naively or not) in the idea of the classless society. At some point, for a reason I can't fathom that changed and there was a part reversion to an attitude from an England before my time that was completely alien to me. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 11, 2022 9:01:46 GMT
Good to see you back and on form Colin! Hope all's well. Surely the point being made was that this deference seems to remain in those who have not greatly improved their lot. I'm willing to bet those now in 'middle class' professional roles who still 'identify' as 'working class' nonetheless have far more 'middle class liberal' cultural attitudes than those who still are 'working class' especially if they've been to University which seems to be one of the biggest factors in determining if someone acquires liberal values. The Labour party just needs to focus on practical solutions to the many problems created/ignored by Conservative governments of one level of uselessness or another and stay clear of this class identity nonsense which is nonetheless fun to discuss. |
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Post by caroline on May 11, 2022 9:08:52 GMT
“Deference” is/was a characteristic inculcated into the children of the working class in the post war period, toff your cap to the land owner, sit up straight in class and don’t question the teacher. Work hard, know your place and be grateful for the food on your plate, those in Africa are starving. I think things have changed a bit since then.
In the postwar settlement, free health care, expanded public education, a minimal social security safety net, strong trade unions gave people some sense of security. Radicals angry at the social injustices were side lined, punished with ridicule, had their careers and sometimes their liberty threatened. That too has changed.
Canvassing in the Local elections I met people who were not angry with the social system they were genuinely frightened. Working in more than one job, struggling to pay bills, knowing that income is not keeping up with expenditure and fearful of debt. No energy to engage in community activity, not stupid enough to believe that voting a few more Labour councillors on to strap cashed local authorities would make an one iota of difference it was difficult to get these voters to the polls.
If Labour do win the next election it will be with the votes of the middle classes, many of the “working class” have given up on the idea that voting can change anything. Labour cannot afford to alienate these middle class voters as they have done in the past, if they do they will loose again. If Labour win the next election the problems are on such a scale that only incremental change will be possible initially and Labour will fail again but anything would be better than what we have now. I think we should all be prepared for serious civil unrest in the coming winter and it will outside of the established political system. "Deference" wont be its defining characteristic and the new bill to deter social protest will be draconian in its effect.
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patrickbrian
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Post by patrickbrian on May 11, 2022 9:26:09 GMT
Welcome back, Colin! I've missed your posts (mostly!)
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 11, 2022 9:29:18 GMT
“Deference” is/was a characteristic inculcated into the children of the working class in the post war period, toff your cap to the land owner, sit up straight in class and don’t question the teacher. Work hard, know your place and be grateful for the food on your plate, those in Africa are starving. I think things have changed a bit since then. In the postwar settlement, free health care, expanded public education, a minimal social security safety net, strong trade unions gave people some sense of security. Radicals angry at the social injustices were side lined, punished with ridicule, had their careers and sometimes their liberty threatened. That too has changed. Canvassing in the Local elections I met people who were not angry with the social system they were genuinely frightened. Working in more than one job, struggling to pay bills, knowing that income is not keeping up with expenditure and fearful of debt. No energy to engage in community activity, not stupid enough to believe that voting a few more Labour councillors on to strap cashed local authorities would make an one iota of difference it was difficult to get these voters to the polls. If Labour do win the next election it will be with the votes of the middle classes, many of the “working class” have given up on the idea that voting can change anything. Labour cannot afford to alienate these middle class voters as they have done in the past, if they do they will loose again. If Labour win the next election the problems are on such a scale that only incremental change will be possible initially and Labour will fail again but anything would be better than what we have now. I think we should all be prepared for serious civil unrest in the coming winter and it will outside of the established political system. "Deference" wont be its defining characteristic and the new bill to deter social protest will be draconian in its effect. A very good if somewhat downbeat analysis imo. I still want my daughter to sit up straight in class and listen to her teacher though as we're having a bit of difficulty with that at the moment! |
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Post by moby on May 11, 2022 9:29:25 GMT
That's exactly what I mean she writes about the social processes that prevented the revolution in Britain. She charts the rise of the merchant classes marrying into the gentility, also the fact that a relatively poor gentleman's daughter considers herself the equal of Darcy in status. Even the lower classes are very much part of her rural dynamic think of Mr Knightleys paternal care for his tenant farmers and workers. Many historians believe these were actual real devices and a reaction to events across the channel,in high society to prevent the English nobles also losing their heads 😉 And, whisper it not, but it's just possible that some of the gentry were actually nice people and cared about their tenants and other folks. I know that goes against the grain on here, but an example I know a bit about is Clovelly. Some time ago (maybe 100 years, maybe more? I can't find a reference to it online) there was a lot of unemployment, so the local squire paid the locals to build a new road down to the village even though there already was one. The new road is closed now, but I have driven down it. It was very precipitous and dangerous, but the point is that the squire had it built out of the goodness of his heart. Not all toffs are evil. Nothing wrong with doing good things but paternalism only exists because some of us have the power/resources to use it over others. That Squire acted out of kindness but still had a power to make people feel obligated to him through his actions. Also what if the Squires heir took a different attitude about the road? |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 9:31:55 GMT
You presume incorrectly. I quoted your comment but didn’t make one of my own -I thought you would be able to understand the difference.
You chose to quote one of my comments in that conversation - and that selection makes your contribution a "comment". It required no additional words from you to achieve that status. I am not surprised that you are unable to see that - though I am relieved that the dogs chos not to get involved.Je m’ennui professeur. |
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Post by wb61 on May 11, 2022 9:32:15 GMT
Yes welcome back Colin from another working class boy who "did good" albeit with a different political perspective to yours.
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Post by hireton on May 11, 2022 9:36:08 GMT
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Post by moby on May 11, 2022 9:48:17 GMT
There has always been that theme running through sections of what we commonly refer to as the 'working class' (however vague and ill defined that is) that dislikes those who climb the ladder. Historically, the UK populace has been far more keen to submit to the thinking that those from 'better' backgrounds are best placed to run things and make decisions, and that such engagement with managing your own lives and communities 'is not for the likes of you and me'. Indeed, talk of 'better backgrounds' and 'climbing the ladder' are all value laden expressions that feed into that sense of who should lead and who should follow. I see this playing out in multiple ways at all sorts of levels. Like the local charity where the Winchester and Oxford former army officer doctor is invited to be chairman, because 'he knows how these things work', despite being the least suitable person for the role, with the poorest understanding of the issues the charity is seeking to address. Or the wealthy failed Prime Minister who lies and cheats, but who some people prefer over the honest son of working class parents from a background much like theirs, because the wealthy PM 'understands people like me'. Or in language and dialect - those panloafy Scots to whom speaking posh means sounding more English, or young black Britons today 'talking white' to dial down their ethnic accents, this sort of deference to those who are perceived as better than we are seeps through society. As a ruling party, throughout the last century the Conservatives have been guilty of repeated horrendous and catastrophic cock ups, economic, military and social, with Labour often having to pick up the pieces, but the judgement remains that Conservatives are 'the natural party of government'. Nowhere else does one see such deference at work. Possible because we never had that revolution, Britain continues with that hidden assumption that the mass of us are here to be ruled over, that we get what we are given, and that we should be be distrustful of those of our own who achieve a higher station in life. "Nowhere else does one see such deference at work" - Certainly no where else in Europe. I wonder about this sometimes. Deference is clearly rampant in the UK but I don't know enough about the subtlety of relationships and class in other countries to say. It's often unspoken and not all that visible? |
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Post by wb61 on May 11, 2022 9:51:52 GMT
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Post by JohnC on May 11, 2022 9:53:47 GMT
'or young black Britons today 'talking white' to dial down their ethnic accents' Reminded me of my future Japanese daughter in law who spoke little or no English when she arrived here at the age of six and, despite attending state schools, now speaks English with a rather 'posh' accent which she acquired from the best friend she grew up with.
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