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Post by robbiealive on May 10, 2022 20:22:44 GMT
"Partygate" and "Beergate" contain allegations that the rules applying in England were breached. We know that some were and (properly) appropriate sanctions eventually applied. It may be (I dunno) that the meal enjoyed by Starmer et al also broke the rules, but that the lengthy face to face meeting didn't due to a specific exemption only applicable to political activities in England.
It is that exemption, and the use of it by politicians in that polity, that I am suggesting omnibus users across England might reasonably question.You may have a point here -- other than a point-scoring one -- but I'm not sure I grasp it. No-one is disputing the legality of long face-to-face [forgive the pedantic hyphens] political meetings in England but rather questioning the legality of any social meals/drinks that followed them. You see the former, the meetings, as granting an exemption -- in England -- to the rules governing everyone else, thus creating a ferment of discourse on buses. Are we to understand that in Scotland political & election meetings between SNP ministers, officials & aides ALWAYS took place on zoom rather than face-to-face. If the face-to-face meetings did take place, mealess & beverageless or otherwise, then presumably politicians in Scotland were grantedthe same exemptions as their English counterparts. |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on May 10, 2022 20:30:01 GMT
birdseye
"some of the poasters on here"
A typo, I presume. Did you mean "roasters"? Could've been 'poachers'. Crofters isn't above purloining other folk's mistakes and repeating them. Or was that Miss Steaks? |
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Post by jib on May 10, 2022 20:33:29 GMT
Excellent news which will counter the increasing irrelevance of Westminster to Wales as Boris Johnson cuts the number of MPs to 32. Senedd: Plans for 96 politicians agreed by Labour and Plaid www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-61392204 |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 10, 2022 20:52:25 GMT
Excellent news which will counter the increasing irrelevance of Westminster to Wales as Boris Johnson cuts the number of MPs to 32. Senedd: Plans for 96 politicians agreed by Labour and Plaid www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-61392204Disappointing that they are not going for STV, but otherwise excellent. Good to see democracy continuing to advance in Wales while the current UK government continues to try to drag us further into the electoral dark ages. Especially pleased to see the FPTP element removed from the system (I dislike the fact there are two classes of members in the AM system). |
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Post by johntel on May 10, 2022 21:09:07 GMT
birdseye
"some of the poasters on here"
A typo, I presume. Did you mean "roasters"? "Boasters" more likely. Or possibly "poseurs"? |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 10, 2022 21:09:08 GMT
You may have a point here -- other than a point-scoring one -- but I'm not sure I grasp it. No-one is disputing the legality of long face-to-face [forgive the pedantic hyphens] political meetings in England but rather questioning the legality of any social meals/drinks that followed them. You see the former, the meetings, as granting an exemption -- in England -- to the rules governing everyone else, thus creating a ferment of discourse on buses. Are we to understand that in Scotland political & election meetings between SNP ministers, officials & aides ALWAYS took place on zoom rather than face-to-face. If the face-to-face meetings did take place, mealess & beverageless or otherwise, then presumably politicians in Scotland were grantedthe same exemptions as their English counterparts.
I already said that I have no idea whether similar exemptions for those involved in political campaigning were in place in rUK as well as in England. If there were, they might be equally questioned.
But I am told on here that, not only did the English regulations include such an exemption, but that that exemption is used by politicians to justify why politicians used that exception given to them by politicians to enjoy freedoms that the general public did not have.
The issue I raise is nothing to do with different polities, and whether some broke the rules that applied within their polity or not. It isn't even about whether politicians in a range of polities were sanctioned for breaking such rules or not.
It is simply whether (if the media focussed attention on it!) the public might reasonable be concerned that politicians (in any polity) give themselves special attention, because they feel themselves to be more important than the person travelling (hopefully masked) on the omnibus. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 10, 2022 21:16:00 GMT
Excellent news which will counter the increasing irrelevance of Westminster to Wales as Boris Johnson cuts the number of MPs to 32. Senedd: Plans for 96 politicians agreed by Labour and Plaid www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-61392204 |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 21:20:20 GMT
YouGov poll in line with R&W showing Starmer increasing his lead over Johnson in approval: Party Leader Approval Ratings: Keir Starmer (LAB): 30% (+3) Boris Johnson (CON): 26% (-3) via @yougov , 7-9 May (Changes with 11 Apr) Being a simple bear, it looks to me more like KS has gone into the lead, rather than increased it. |
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Post by alec on May 10, 2022 21:32:33 GMT
Odd, that we have RoC posters tonight talking of Starmer as a 'champagne socialist', while Old Etonian Johnson remains PM, because the married to a billionaire chancellor can't quite get his act together to depose him.
Funny old world, isn't it?
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 10, 2022 21:36:08 GMT
Excellent news which will counter the increasing irrelevance of Westminster to Wales as Boris Johnson cuts the number of MPs to 32. Senedd: Plans for 96 politicians agreed by Labour and Plaid www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-61392204That's what the article seems to be saying (it's not well written). 16 constituencies, each electing 6 assembly members, electors get one vote for a party list (which must alternate between male and female), those elected to be decided by a D'Hondt quota. STV is much to be preferred as it takes the power out of the hands of the parties and puts it in those of voters (which is why parties hate it of course). |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 21:36:27 GMT
@crofty
"I didn't comment"
I accept your assurance that you didn't. Presumably Rosie and/or Daisie chose to exercise their right to speak (or type) through your account? You presume incorrectly. I quoted your comment but didn’t make one of my own -I thought you would be able to understand the difference. |
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Post by hireton on May 10, 2022 21:40:03 GMT
YouGov poll in line with R&W showing Starmer increasing his lead over Johnson in approval: Party Leader Approval Ratings: Keir Starmer (LAB): 30% (+3) Boris Johnson (CON): 26% (-3) via @yougov , 7-9 May (Changes with 11 Apr) Being a simple bear, it looks to me more like KS has gone into the lead, rather than increased it. True! |
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Post by hireton on May 10, 2022 21:52:25 GMT
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 10, 2022 21:58:53 GMT
@crofty
"I didn't comment"
I accept your assurance that you didn't. Presumably Rosie and/or Daisie chose to exercise their right to speak (or type) through your account? You presume incorrectly. I quoted your comment but didn’t make one of my own -I thought you would be able to understand the difference.
You chose to quote one of my comments in that conversation - and that selection makes your contribution a "comment". It required no additional words from you to achieve that status. I am not surprised that you are unable to see that - though I am relieved that the dogs chos not to get involved. |
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Post by robbiealive on May 10, 2022 22:00:51 GMT
I'm sure that I don't grasp your point!
I already said that I have no idea whether similar exemptions for those involved in political campaigning were in place in rUK as well as in England. If there were, they might be equally questioned.
But I am told on here that, not only did the English regulations include such an exemption, but that that exemption is used by politicians to justify why politicians used that exception given to them by politicians to enjoy freedoms that the general public did not have.
It is simply whether (if the media focussed attention on it!) the public might reasonable be concerned that politicians (in any polity) give themselves special attention, because they feel themselves to be more important than the person travelling (hopefully masked) on the omnibus. You really are making meal of this. The italicised bit is so tangled, it's baffling. Does it mean "Politicians created rules but exempted themselves from observing them, while requiring ordinary members of the public to observe them in full." There is an edit button on here. Top right. I suggest you use it. I doubt whether the public is/was either remotely surprised or concerned to discover that politicians think they are more important than other people, or that they exempted themselves from the rules. To answer yr not very interesting question about whether people were concerned by such you would have to look at polling evidence, if any. On the other hand people in Britain and the US etc were amazed presumably that politicians in the early days recklessly attended what turned out to be super-spreader events that infected so many of them, when most people had the good sense to take precautionary measures. . . |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 10, 2022 22:02:37 GMT
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steve
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Post by steve on May 10, 2022 22:20:57 GMT
oldnat That's entirely your interpretation and has bugger all to do with what I posted.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 10, 2022 23:05:18 GMT
oldnat That's entirely your interpretation and has bugger all to do with what I posted.
Presumably you thought you were making some point or other, but since any such thinking was obscure (to put it mildly) it remains one of life's mysteries as why you thought the purpose was. |
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Post by pete on May 10, 2022 23:12:24 GMT
A very dodgy government.
Rafael Behr
@rafaelbehr
·
11h
This ambition for Brexit Freedom bill sounds like a licence for all sorts of shady business:
“Creating new powers to strengthen the ability to amend, repeal or replace the large amounts of retained EU law by reducing the need to always use primary legislation to do so.”
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 10, 2022 23:21:57 GMT
A very dodgy government. Rafael Behr @rafaelbehr · 11h This ambition for Brexit Freedom bill sounds like a licence for all sorts of shady business: “Creating new powers to strengthen the ability to amend, repeal or replace the large amounts of retained EU law by reducing the need to always use primary legislation to do so.” |
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Post by mercian on May 10, 2022 23:21:57 GMT
Hi thylacine I blame Jane Austen!Hey leave her out of this you meanie - she can do no wrong. Just finished re-reading Sense and Sensibility and about to start Persuasion. There is actually a lot of social commentary in her books. That's exactly what I mean she writes about the social processes that prevented the revolution in Britain. She charts the rise of the merchant classes marrying into the gentility, also the fact that a relatively poor gentleman's daughter considers herself the equal of Darcy in status. Even the lower classes are very much part of her rural dynamic think of Mr Knightleys paternal care for his tenant farmers and workers. Many historians believe these were actual real devices and a reaction to events across the channel,in high society to prevent the English nobles also losing their heads 😉 And, whisper it not, but it's just possible that some of the gentry were actually nice people and cared about their tenants and other folks. I know that goes against the grain on here, but an example I know a bit about is Clovelly. Some time ago (maybe 100 years, maybe more? I can't find a reference to it online) there was a lot of unemployment, so the local squire paid the locals to build a new road down to the village even though there already was one. The new road is closed now, but I have driven down it. It was very precipitous and dangerous, but the point is that the squire had it built out of the goodness of his heart. Not all toffs are evil. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 10, 2022 23:26:35 GMT
mercian
Indeed. One should always give the appropriate credit, even to the richest, when it is due - as Peat Worrier does here -
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Post by mercian on May 10, 2022 23:33:12 GMT
Odd, that we have RoC posters tonight talking of Starmer as a 'champagne socialist', while Old Etonian Johnson remains PM, because the married to a billionaire chancellor can't quite get his act together to depose him. Funny old world, isn't it? I haven't seen the posts you refer to, but surely the point is that Labour are (or were) the party of the working class and hence drinking champagne is a bit hypocritical? It's almost an old-fashioned version of 'metropolitan elite' - i.e. a slur that these people aren't in touch with their voters. |
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Post by moby on May 11, 2022 5:06:30 GMT
Yes good article that. Many of us in the Labour Party do tend to lecture, rather than listen. I was aghast when my home town Wrexham turned tory in 2019 for the first time in its history. During all too infrequent visits to the town to see family over the last 30 years I observed how it was becoming more and more depressed. The issues my brothers and sister living there raised during visits bothered me. They frequently talked about immigration from Eastern Europe and how they now faced competition for jobs in factories and the care sector, access to housing, GP apps etc. I saw them as insular and slightly bigoted but we avoided conflict. I remember going on one of the huge remain marches in London and sending pictures to one of my brothers on Whats App of me posing with Steven Bray as banter. He wasn't interested though and just commented 'people need to accept brexit and move on'. I could see he liked Boris Johnson as well. Although we don't discuss politics I knew in my gut he'd voted for brexit and probably tory for the first time. Johnson knew something was happening as I used to see him frequently going to Wrexham before the 2019 election. I thought why are you spending so much time in a depressed market town.....we soon saw why! The good news is these same family members are now clearly sick of Johnson but they still have no great love for Labour either. Interesting comments even to a life long Tory. When I got my first job managing a production operation in a unionised environment, I was genuinelky shocked by the contempt that Union officials showed for the members I had working for me, and indeed the ganger man who provided the cheap casual labour we used as a top up was the local Labour lord mayor. In another situation I had to introduce my then new MD to our shop floor shop stewards. The MD was an ex Major from the Royal Horse Artillery, a very nice chap as it happened , but about as public school upper class as you could get. To my surprise the otherwise bloody minded very left wing shop stewards positively stood to attention for him and showed a degree of respect that I never imagined possible.
People are funny and dont neatly fit the class divisions of the left wing theorists. They want respect. They have aspirations and they dont want patronising by champagne socialists like Starmer or Blair or indded some of the poasters on here.
Birdseye your story is an interesting one and let's go back to base without any right or left theoretical assumptions. The bit I can't understand is why anyone would stand to attention for someone else; I mean why would these shop stewards feel in that way? Where did that behaviour response come from. It doesn't seem they knew the MD at all previously? |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 11, 2022 6:30:09 GMT
Odd, that we have RoC posters tonight talking of Starmer as a 'champagne socialist', while Old Etonian Johnson remains PM, because the married to a billionaire chancellor can't quite get his act together to depose him. Funny old world, isn't it? I haven't seen the posts you refer to, but surely the point is that Labour are (or were) the party of the working class and hence drinking champagne is a bit hypocritical? It's almost an old-fashioned version of 'metropolitan elite' - i.e. a slur that these people aren't in touch with their voters.  ?? Are we supposed to live on bread and water and ware sackcloth? |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on May 11, 2022 6:38:25 GMT
'Champagne socialist' is a lazy trope, not seen any evidence that it is even correct in terms of what Starmer's preferred drink of choice is. Also not even sure Starmner would now describe himself as socialist!
That aside if those on the left have little money they are accused of the 'politics of envy', taking money away from those at the top financial end of society. If they have done well they are accused of being 'champagne socialists', they really can't win.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 11, 2022 6:52:35 GMT
Hi mercian And, whisper it not, but it's just possible that some of the gentry were actually nice people and cared about their tenants and other folks. I know that goes against the grain on here, but an example I know a bit about is Clovelly. Some time ago (maybe 100 years, maybe more? I can't find a reference to it online) there was a lot of unemployment, so the local squire paid the locals to build a new road down to the village even though there already was one. The new road is closed now, but I have driven down it. It was very precipitous and dangerous, but the point is that the squire had it built out of the goodness of his heart. Not all toffs are evil.Well in Jane Austin's novels wealth and social status does not equate to / determine the quality of the individual - but one theme that is common throughout her work is the high levels of social snobbery in the upper classes.
A person can be broadly a 'good' person but at the same time be complicit in (either consciously or subconsciously) and benefit from a system that is morally corrupt/destructive and/or causes misery to the many.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 11, 2022 6:53:22 GMT
News this morning reporting the FED expected to raise interest rates again in an attempt to contain inflation in the US.
Quite how that might work is unclear to me becase presumably their inflation is imported too. Perhaps not as its a big country. Report also said several rises are anticipated in the near future.
Now the main reason the UK seems to have raised interest rates last time is to match the FED, so as to prevent a (even bigger) run on the pound. The UK seems to be heading for recession, while pushing up interest isnt likely to do anything aout our inflation which is very much based upon imorted rises. Argument what we really need is for interest to stay low. But since the Uk is a powerless state ouside of any trading block, we are pretty much owerless to set our own rates. Forced to mirror the US despie the damage this may cause to the UK economy?
Our underlying especial negative outlook of course is because of Brexit.
Oh and another story just said the covid lockdown induced backlog in treating cancer cases will take 5 years to clear. The reported underlying reason is staff shortages so its impossible to catch up. Problematic for people calculating excess deaths, because additional deaths will happen from cancer but were caused by the deliberate policy of extending the duration of the covid epidemic, not by covid. So the deaths are consequences of government policy, not the disease.
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Post by alec on May 11, 2022 7:00:23 GMT
Indeed.
Well off, formerly working class Tory who works in politics to lift others = pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and understands the working man.
Well off, formerly working class Labour who works in politics to lift others = champagne socialist driven by sense of envy.
Do we all understand how this works now?
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 11, 2022 7:06:39 GMT
Gvernment has chickened out of plans to make getting planning consent for new homes easier. It seems to be trapped between the need to keep existing NIMBY home owners happy, and enable enough homes to be built, the lack of which is preventing people becoming home owners. A critical balance since con have, since Thatcher at least, reckoned they benefit from people owning their own homes.
So upset the existing home owners who vote for you, or cut off your supply of new voters? Such a hard job picking which national policy will best benefit yourself.
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?? Are we supposed to live on bread and water and ware sackcloth?