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Post by mercian on May 10, 2022 15:18:41 GMT
Lack of a proper revolution at some point? Modern French society is still in large part defined by 1789 and the German, esp Prussian aristocracy was comprehensively disinherited (though not completely wiped out) in 1945. Agreed. I posted on this before. The incompetence & selfishness of the English ruling class has never been exposed & crushed by war or revolution. Never heard of Oliver Cromwell? We got our revolution in early. It didn't work long-term of course because like all lefties Cromwell was a miseryguts and banned Christmas amongst other things. |
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Post by mercian on May 10, 2022 15:21:13 GMT
Exactly! It's nice to see a bit of common sense for a change. Some LoC posters on here have a very patronising attitude to anyone who doesn't agree with them - particularly Leave voters. If Labour are to be anything more than a 'metropolitan elite' and inner-city immigrant party they will have to engage with their traditional base. What is 'metropolitan elite' actually supposed to mean? That's why I put it in quotes. |
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Post by wb61 on May 10, 2022 15:23:44 GMT
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 10, 2022 15:26:06 GMT
Agreed. I posted on this before. The incompetence & selfishness of the English ruling class has never been exposed & crushed by war or revolution. Never heard of Oliver Cromwell? We got our revolution in early. It didn't work long-term of course because like all lefties Cromwell was a miseryguts and banned Christmas amongst other things. That wasn't a revolution, it was a civil war within the ruling class of the time. There were 'revolutionary' elements on it's fringes but it was ended by the restoration. |
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Post by shevii on May 10, 2022 15:43:02 GMT
Stats for Lefties @leftiestats · 6m 🚨 NEW: Labour lead drops to 1pt (+/- since 26-27 Apr) 🔴 Lab 36% (-3) 🔵 Con 35% (+2) 🟠 LD 10% (-1) 🟢 Grn 8% (+2) 🟡 SNP 5% (-) 🟣 Ref 4% (+1) Seats (+/- since 2019): 🔵 Con 281 (-84) 🔴 Lab 270 (+68) 🟡 SNP 56 (+8) 🟠 LD 19 (+8) 🟢 Grn 1 (-) Via @yougov , 5-6 May They may well have moved due to negative press over Starmer but lets see if they stay there as the cost of living starts biting more and more. I suspect outlier but possibly, as it was more or less election day, would some have given the answer of who they voted for that day rather than for a General Election- for some reason Yougov often seem very sensitive to bits of news or events that a day or so later are background noise. We'll need Jim Jam's 4 or 5 in a row. |
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Post by alec on May 10, 2022 15:54:00 GMT
mercian - "It does make one wonder who was more at fault in the legendary and interminable alec and TW spat." I think one thing we've learned in recent years is that the truth won't just survive on it's own. It needs people to speak it, again and again and again. Yes, it may seem boring and repetitive, but I won't apologise for constantly picking up falsehoods.
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Post by steamdrivenandy on May 10, 2022 15:54:47 GMT
We may not be in the European Union any more but at least we're still in Eurovision! Has anyone told Farage? Actually, thinking about it, I'd much rather we'd left Eurovision than the EU. Are we sure the 52% didn't think that's what the referendum was about. |
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Post by alec on May 10, 2022 16:00:08 GMT
Incidentally, there are increasing examples of Paxlovid relapses after BA.2/BA2.12.1. Paxlovid is one of the key antiviral treatments which was meant to be the backstop for the infected, but there are increasing numbers of cases of individuals nearly clearing infection after the 5 day treatment, only to see viral loads rebound once they stop. This seems to be specific to the new variants.
With antibiotics, this is a classic way to generate resistance, and if this continues with covid, it increases the chances of a variant that won't respond to antivirals. This would remove a major plank of the 'living with covid' support system.
There is so much about covid we still don't understand.
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Post by thylacine on May 10, 2022 16:03:31 GMT
God knows. The English used to be precociously urban, irreverent, monarchy- & aristocracy-loathing etc. In recent times they have tended to vote for the toffs, even Blair was quite posh. How many times have you heard a rich Tory tell the voters you need to tighten yr belts, make sacrifices. Instead of throwing things at 'em the response is to nod in robotic agreement! There are small signs things are changing under the cost-of-living crisis. But still a strong tendency to vote for the winners those seen aspirationally as yr social superiors. What explains this deference. Who knows. Poor educational standards indoctrinated with the legend of WW2, imperial fantasies, a strong and false notion of English exceptionalism, the reassuing continuity & seeming impregnability of nonsensical constitutional arrangements like the Monarchy. And the English working class have a long. long history, even when less deferential, of manipulable intolerance to immigrants, Jews, an intense dislike of Catholics: no one gave a toss about the EU until Farage linked it to immigration. It adds up to a notion of compound Englishness, patriotism, self-styled historical importance, anti-internationalism. an identity that is expressed by the toff party never by Labour. Johnson is a cheap crook but somehow he is one of us. End of mini-rant. Lack of a proper revolution at some point? Modern French society is still in large part defined by 1789 and the German, esp Prussian aristocracy was comprehensively disinherited (though not completely wiped out) in 1945. I blame Jane Austen! |
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Post by thylacine on May 10, 2022 16:05:38 GMT
We may not be in the European Union any more but at least we're still in Eurovision! Has anyone told Farage? Actually, thinking about it, I'd much rather we'd left Eurovision than the EU. Are we sure the 52% didn't think that's what the referendum was about. I initially thought there was a chance we may not be bottom this year but I expect Russia has been banned? |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 10, 2022 16:20:16 GMT
lululemonmustdobetter ". had helped decrease wc salaries." Could you define "working class" and point to your evidence that such salaries have decreased? "...and hadn't reversed economic decline" What decline and where?
Hi hireton
Why? I was writing from 'their' perspective, I didn't say I necessarily agreed with that view of the EU/immigration or Labour's record (a lot of the good that was done in the Blair/Brown years was reversed under the Tories and austerity). Its called trying to put yourself in someone else's shoes - perception is often more important than reality when it comes to VI.
Anyway, I've got a far more important task to perform which is making my family dinner - chicken fajita's if your interested. Bye! |
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Post by jimjam on May 10, 2022 17:16:02 GMT
Shevii,
With the R&W we have 2 in a row with a narrowing of the lead even if the YG 5% closing may prove to be at the edge of moe.
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Post by moby on May 10, 2022 17:23:04 GMT
God knows. The English used to be precociously urban, irreverent, monarchy- & aristocracy-loathing etc. In recent times they have tended to vote for the toffs, even Blair was quite posh. How many times have you heard a rich Tory tell the voters you need to tighten yr belts, make sacrifices. Instead of throwing things at 'em the response is to nod in robotic agreement! There are small signs things are changing under the cost-of-living crisis. But still a strong tendency to vote for the winners those seen aspirationally as yr social superiors. What explains this deference. Who knows. Poor educational standards indoctrinated with the legend of WW2, imperial fantasies, a strong and false notion of English exceptionalism, the reassuing continuity & seeming impregnability of nonsensical constitutional arrangements like the Monarchy. And the English working class have a long. long history, even when less deferential, of manipulable intolerance to immigrants, Jews, an intense dislike of Catholics: no one gave a toss about the EU until Farage linked it to immigration. It adds up to a notion of compound Englishness, patriotism, self-styled historical importance, anti-internationalism. an identity that is expressed by the toff party never by Labour. Johnson is a cheap crook but somehow he is one of us. End of mini-rant. Lack of a proper revolution at some point? Modern French society is still in large part defined by 1789 and the German, esp Prussian aristocracy was comprehensively disinherited (though not completely wiped out) in 1945. The best theory I've seen is that the English aristocracy was smart enough to give away some power when they really had to thereby avoiding revolution e.g getting rid of the 40 shilling freeholder laws, the Reform Act 1832, Corn Laws etc. |
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Post by hireton on May 10, 2022 17:23:57 GMT
YouGov poll in line with R&W showing Starmer increasing his lead over Johnson in approval:
Party Leader Approval Ratings:
Keir Starmer (LAB): 30% (+3)
Boris Johnson (CON): 26% (-3) via
@yougov
, 7-9 May (Changes with 11 Apr)
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on May 10, 2022 17:30:42 GMT
Shevii, With the R&W we have 2 in a row with a narrowing of the lead even if the YG 5% closing may prove to be at the edge of moe. On the other hand R&W has a Labour lead of +6, Savanta Comres +5, YouGov just +1 (and on an earlier polling date as well). It feels like an outlier. I have noticed YouGov can be quite volatile. I wouldn't be surprised if their next poll shows a larger Labour lead, which will be hailed in some quarters (not on here) as significant when it is just a correction to the mean. Time will tell. |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on May 10, 2022 17:33:48 GMT
Lack of a proper revolution at some point? Modern French society is still in large part defined by 1789 and the German, esp Prussian aristocracy was comprehensively disinherited (though not completely wiped out) in 1945. The best theory I've seen is that the English aristocracy was smart enough to give away some power when they really had to thereby avoiding revolution e.g getting rid of the 40 shilling freeholder laws, the Reform Act 1832, Corn Laws etc. For we cricket fans, I shall quote the great historian GM Trevelyan: "If the French nobility had been capable of playing cricket with their peasants, their chateaux would never have been burnt." |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 10, 2022 17:41:08 GMT
Hi thylacine I blame Jane Austen!Hey leave her out of this you meanie - she can do no wrong. Just finished re-reading Sense and Sensibility and about to start Persuasion. There is actually a lot of social commentary in her books.
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on May 10, 2022 18:02:07 GMT
oldnat Where in your grizzled wee heid do you get the notion that I don't make reference to events that occurred more than two years ago , I simply like to point out when posters imply events have just occurred when this isn't actually the case. |
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Post by thylacine on May 10, 2022 18:10:20 GMT
Hi thylacine I blame Jane Austen!Hey leave her out of this you meanie - she can do no wrong. Just finished re-reading Sense and Sensibility and about to start Persuasion. There is actually a lot of social commentary in her books. That's exactly what I mean she writes about the social processes that prevented the revolution in Britain. She charts the rise of the merchant classes marrying into the gentility, also the fact that a relatively poor gentleman's daughter considers herself the equal of Darcy in status. Even the lower classes are very much part of her rural dynamic think of Mr Knightleys paternal care for his tenant farmers and workers. Many historians believe these were actual real devices and a reaction to events across the channel,in high society to prevent the English nobles also losing their heads 😉 |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 10, 2022 18:48:23 GMT
Hi thylacine I blame Jane Austen!Hey leave her out of this you meanie - she can do no wrong. Just finished re-reading Sense and Sensibility and about to start Persuasion. There is actually a lot of social commentary in her books. That's exactly what I mean she writes about the social processes that prevented the revolution in Britain. She charts the rise of the merchant classes marrying into the gentility, also the fact that a relatively poor gentleman's daughter considers herself the equal of Darcy in status. Even the lower classes are very much part of her rural dynamic think of Mr Knightleys paternal care for his tenant farmers and workers. Many historians believe these were actual real devices and a reaction to events across the channel,in high society to prevent the English nobles also losing their heads 😉 |
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Post by birdseye on May 10, 2022 19:12:47 GMT
I thought this was an excellent and thought-provoking analysis of the demographic challenges that still pose problems for Labour's electoral and political recovery. It touches on the political importance still of social class identification, based much more on culture and education as opposed to economic or employment circumstance. It's where Labour are still suffering in terms of their appeal in formerly solidly Labour voting parts of the country. Corbynism offered no solution to this, and probably hastened the process of alienation, but Starmer's Labour is struggling with it too. The author doesn't offer easy solutions but points to what the party needs to do. I don't think, as Owen Jones argues in another article today, that more socialism is the answer. Somehow Labour has to shed the image that it's a party that just isn't interested in the humdrum and prosaic problems of most people's everyday lives. That they look down on people who often express inconvenient and uncomfortable frustrations with life. Frustrations expressed in ways that may anger meeting rooms full of the righteous and converted. That's the challenge for Labour I think. Don't pander to bigotry, but understand its origins and be humble too that the party's failures and image might just be part of the reason so many people reject them and instead buy populist Tory quack solutions. Anyway, it's an interesting read and, yes, like the author, I've been that middle class lefty intellectual travelling with a bunch of pissed up football fans who can't understand why I'm there!! A poignant metaphor. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/10/starmer-working-class-voters-labour-leader-brexitYes good article that. Many of us in the Labour Party do tend to lecture, rather than listen. I was aghast when my home town Wrexham turned tory in 2019 for the first time in its history. During all too infrequent visits to the town to see family over the last 30 years I observed how it was becoming more and more depressed. The issues my brothers and sister living there raised during visits bothered me. They frequently talked about immigration from Eastern Europe and how they now faced competition for jobs in factories and the care sector, access to housing, GP apps etc. I saw them as insular and slightly bigoted but we avoided conflict. I remember going on one of the huge remain marches in London and sending pictures to one of my brothers on Whats App of me posing with Steven Bray as banter. He wasn't interested though and just commented 'people need to accept brexit and move on'. I could see he liked Boris Johnson as well. Although we don't discuss politics I knew in my gut he'd voted for brexit and probably tory for the first time. Johnson knew something was happening as I used to see him frequently going to Wrexham before the 2019 election. I thought why are you spending so much time in a depressed market town.....we soon saw why! The good news is these same family members are now clearly sick of Johnson but they still have no great love for Labour either. Interesting comments even to a life long Tory. When I got my first job managing a production operation in a unionised environment, I was genuinelky shocked by the contempt that Union officials showed for the members I had working for me, and indeed the ganger man who provided the cheap casual labour we used as a top up was the local Labour lord mayor. In another situation I had to introduce my then new MD to our shop floor shop stewards. The MD was an ex Major from the Royal Horse Artillery, a very nice chap as it happened , but about as public school upper class as you could get. To my surprise the otherwise bloody minded very left wing shop stewards positively stood to attention for him and showed a degree of respect that I never imagined possible.
People are funny and dont neatly fit the class divisions of the left wing theorists. They want respect. They have aspirations and they dont want patronising by champagne socialists like Starmer or Blair or indded some of the poasters on here.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 10, 2022 19:40:51 GMT
Yes good article that. Many of us in the Labour Party do tend to lecture, rather than listen. I was aghast when my home town Wrexham turned tory in 2019 for the first time in its history. During all too infrequent visits to the town to see family over the last 30 years I observed how it was becoming more and more depressed. The issues my brothers and sister living there raised during visits bothered me. They frequently talked about immigration from Eastern Europe and how they now faced competition for jobs in factories and the care sector, access to housing, GP apps etc. I saw them as insular and slightly bigoted but we avoided conflict. I remember going on one of the huge remain marches in London and sending pictures to one of my brothers on Whats App of me posing with Steven Bray as banter. He wasn't interested though and just commented 'people need to accept brexit and move on'. I could see he liked Boris Johnson as well. Although we don't discuss politics I knew in my gut he'd voted for brexit and probably tory for the first time. Johnson knew something was happening as I used to see him frequently going to Wrexham before the 2019 election. I thought why are you spending so much time in a depressed market town.....we soon saw why! The good news is these same family members are now clearly sick of Johnson but they still have no great love for Labour either. Interesting comments even to a life long Tory. When I got my first job managing a production operation in a unionised environment, I was genuinelky shocked by the contempt that Union officials showed for the members I had working for me, and indeed the ganger man who provided the cheap casual labour we used as a top up was the local Labour lord mayor. In another situation I had to introduce my then new MD to our shop floor shop stewards. The MD was an ex Major from the Royal Horse Artillery, a very nice chap as it happened , but about as public school upper class as you could get. To my surprise the otherwise bloody minded very left wing shop stewards positively stood to attention for him and showed a degree of respect that I never imagined possible.
People are funny and dont neatly fit the class divisions of the left wing theorists. They want respect. They have aspirations and they dont want patronising by champagne socialists like Starmer or Blair or indded some of the poasters on here.
Well I think Blair was quite liked (understatement) precisely by those who were aspirational was he not? I find the forelock tugging of some of the English to this day simply abhorrent as those they are 'showing respect to' deserve it not one jot. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 19:42:15 GMT
oldnat Where in your grizzled wee heid do you get the notion that I don't make reference to events that occurred more than two years ago , I simply like to point out when posters imply events have just occurred when this isn't actually the case. Your actual comment: ”I am simply applying your rule that anything more than 2 years old must not be quoted on this site.” |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 10, 2022 19:44:30 GMT
birdseye
"some of the poasters on here"
A typo, I presume. Did you mean "roasters"?
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Post by robbiealive on May 10, 2022 19:51:07 GMT
Hi thylacine I blame Jane Austen!Hey leave her out of this you meanie - she can do no wrong. Just finished re-reading Sense and Sensibility and about to start Persuasion. There is actually a lot of social commentary in her books. Having had time to read & re-read all Austen's novels certain conclusions suggest themselves. 1, She had a deceptively simple style that appeals to the modern mind because she is the mistress of ironical humour. It also appeals as it's not poetic: her descriptions of persons and places are functional to the plot, skillfully symbolic of the characters moral qualms & dilemmas, but not elaborate or sensuous. 2. She has clear themes & a formula repeated in every novel tho it would take too long to say what that is. To give one example: all the heroines have a missing parent, or a defective one: Emma & Anne Elliott, in Persuasion, have both. Elizabeth Bennet has a silly mother & a learned but detached father. The characters in Mansfield Park have a hopeless mother & the social & sexual transgressions can only take place because their aristocratic father is absent for some months. In Sense & Sensibility the father has just died & left the family penniless & governed soley by spirited women, etc. This gives the heroines an independence, a freedom of action to test but not usually to discard social conventions, tho some do, that would be difficult to portray if they had more conventional parenting. 3. She provides social observation but not commentary in the wider sense. The former is strenthened by the fact that her novels are set in her own time, whereas nearly all Georgian & Victorian novels, while also providing their heroines & heroes with crucial gaps in parentage, are set in the generation of their author's births. This gives her novels an immediacy rather than a quasi-historical flavour. 4. Social commentary is limited because for her rhetorical purposes she greatly simplifies & idealises village life & social connections. The poorer charcters are somewhat pictureque decayed gentle folk or the grateful recipients of charity. The servants are anonymous. One would never guess that her novels are set in a period of acute agricultral depression. rural poverty & discontent. She has no notion of politics beyoind the parsonage & the gentry household, although she is swept along in two novels by the contemporary adulation of naval officers. She has a rich & ironical grasp of the marriage/meat market but the fact that in P & P two very rich men marry the two dowry-less Bennett girls for love is frankly preposterous. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 10, 2022 19:58:02 GMT
Since there was no such implication in my comment, your attempt to explain why you made that time reference to the utterances of the execrable BritNat seems somewhat weak. Your actual comment: ”I am simply applying your rule that anything more than 2 years old must not be quoted on this site.” |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 20:06:57 GMT
Your actual comment: ”I am simply applying your rule that anything more than 2 years old must not be quoted on this site.” I didn’t comment. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 10, 2022 20:10:46 GMT
Interesting comments even to a life long Tory. When I got my first job managing a production operation in a unionised environment, I was genuinelky shocked by the contempt that Union officials showed for the members I had working for me, and indeed the ganger man who provided the cheap casual labour we used as a top up was the local Labour lord mayor. In another situation I had to introduce my then new MD to our shop floor shop stewards. The MD was an ex Major from the Royal Horse Artillery, a very nice chap as it happened , but about as public school upper class as you could get. To my surprise the otherwise bloody minded very left wing shop stewards positively stood to attention for him and showed a degree of respect that I never imagined possible.
People are funny and dont neatly fit the class divisions of the left wing theorists. They want respect. They have aspirations and they dont want patronising by champagne socialists like Starmer or Blair or indded some of the poasters on here.
Well I think Blair was quite liked (understatement) precisely by those who were aspirational was he not? Well he might have been quite liked by some of those who aspired to windfall property gains, for example. While to those who suffered reduced aspiration as a result of property price hikes, with its impact on rents, chances of buying a house, of being able to afford property near the school they want, of being able to afford to rent a shop for a business etc., it may have seemed more like ladder-pulling than aspiration. If you want an overall indication of how favourably people view Blair now people have seen what he actually did, check the polling I posted the other day where he is lower than Corbyn, May, Johnson, Cameron etc. (admittedly Clegg was even lower) |
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Post by hireton on May 10, 2022 20:11:36 GMT
An interesting observation on poll watching:
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on May 10, 2022 20:12:02 GMT
@crofty
"I didn't comment"
I accept your assurance that you didn't. Presumably Rosie and/or Daisie chose to exercise their right to speak (or type) through your account?
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