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Post by lens on May 10, 2022 12:19:11 GMT
lens - the persistent downplaying of the harms to children of covid, particularly in the Omicron, which affected children far more than previous waves, is something I find alarming. I'm struggling to understand why we can't just have a realistic view of this. No one is saying that children are dying in large numbers, or that all children are doomed etc etc. I'm just restating facts. There are several things wrong with your analysis on this........ Oh, just give it a rest Alec! The person who is struggling to get a realistic view is you - just get a sense of perspective. There's a world of difference between downplaying harm to children and between being overly pessimistic about one single health factor. Unfortunately, it's a problem which Covid seems to have brought on, fixation about Covid risks - which are real enough - out of all proportion to all other factors. Most teachers - most of whom will have had Covid themselves by now - feel the damage to childrens education is more serious overall than risk to their health. But specifically you implied that Covid was directly responsible for 500 children being hospitalised during a given week. You were wrong. You misunderstood the statistics. In that week 500 hospitalised children tested positive to Covid - a very different matter. Yes, some may have been directly due to it - but the figures don't break down how many. Sorry if that truth doesn't fit with your pessimistic mindset. In the wider world the economic harm can't just be ignored, and we can only question if the billions spent on test and trace would have been better spent on research into cancer, heart disease etc. Mercifully, "free" lateral flow tests have now been stopped, and - surprise, surprise!! - the armageddon forecast by the pessimists hasn't happened. Cases, hospitalisations etc have continued to decline. (I won't disagree that workplace testing may still have merit to try to prevent a large percentage of the company workforce all being absent at the same time - but that should always have been funded by the company themselves.) |
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Post by joeboy on May 10, 2022 12:19:29 GMT
Thanks Hireton. Just to introduce myself, I come from a 'Sarf' London Irish Background. A bit lefty and tribally Labour. A couple of years ago sick to the back teeth with Brexit I returned to Ireland and now view events across the water with a jaundiced but thankfully detached view  . |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 10, 2022 12:43:42 GMT
I thought this was an excellent and thought-provoking analysis of the demographic challenges that still pose problems for Labour's electoral and political recovery. It touches on the political importance still of social class identification... An interesting piece, but, IMO, flawed. The writer starts off by recalling a trip to see the local football club playing, contrasting himself, the son of a techer, with the 'brickies' that made up much of the coach, saying that the difference was seen by both parties. This sets the scene for the rest of the article, which strongly infers that 'brickies' and other manual workers are naturally socially conservative or reactionary. While there is a demographic that is economically LOC but socially conservative that has traditionally voted Labour for their own economic interests but now votes Tory on social issues, this factor amplified by brexit, that is one hell of a broad brush. I speak as someone that has spent time on the dole, that has never earned more than minimum wage, that, at times, has literally scrabbled round the skirting for pennies. The perception of class here is misplaced. Firstly, teachers could be said to be working class, although I get that someone who is a manual worker may see a teacher as someone in a higher class, but, if this is the case, why would someone who though this, that may see Labour as the same, vote for the party of Jacob Rees-Mogg and Rishi Sunak? The underlying problem for Labour is more the economic LOC that have now switched, on social issues, actually oppose what Labour stand for, for which, bar putting purely economic issues loudly front and centre and staying largely schtum of social issues, I cannot see a solution for Labour, especially now that the Tories know how to play the social issues in a way to appeal to this demographic. One thing that struck me on the large London pro EU marches was how so many people I spoke to (the marches were quite social affairs with people chatting easily to one another) were not the uber middle class affairs some would suspect they were as many people who might be categorised as WWC took part, in fact many of those I fell into conversation with which I must admit surprised me a bit at the time. There's a distinct snobbery in the right assuming this demographic is naturally prone to their rabble rousing and manipulations. I do think Labour focussing almost exclusively on practical issues and 'staying largely schtum' on cultural/social ones (and ignoring/laughing off provocations on this from their own wing nuts) is the way ahead. It would be Labour framing what is important not leaving that to the Tories and the right wing press. |
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Post by joeboy on May 10, 2022 12:50:05 GMT
Joeboy Re: ''One of the features of this elections was Colum Eastwood's fixation on attacking SF at every turn. While that made sense in that SF was his main opposition in nationalist areas, it may also have determined that many SF transfers went to the Alliance rather than the SDLP, resulting in people like Nicola Mallon losing out in North Belfast for example.'' I have a family member in the SDLP and their view is that there are 2 factors at play in these elections 'explaining' the poor showing. One is the way the FM and DFM is decided which pushes aligned voters for whom that alignment is their main issue towards the main party in the designation. (The DUP recovery from the shambles of last year to only losing 2 seats would support this notion). The second is the equivocation around social policy particularly abortion rights with Nicola Mallon being strongly so called pro-life. As you say, there were more transfers direct that one would expect from SF to APNI and the other way with the SDLP cut out. Wonder if the Roe v Wade stuff in the US fed this in some voters minds. The Abortion issue could well be a factor, I don't live in Northern Ireland so I wouldn't like to comment until more detailed info is available. I see Aontu got 1.5% overall, which would be in line with expectations in elections North and South. I'm also not sure about the FM post pushing people towards SF. I think prior to the election pollsters tended to underestimate the ground game. So while their figures may have been right, the likelihood to vote may not have been fully taken into account. I've seen SF in action down here getting out the vote, and they'd put a Tammany Hall boss to shame. I'm sure they're even more effective in the North. |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 10, 2022 13:11:29 GMT
Can I just say you are all missing the point. The big issues is not 'partygate', 'beergate', Labour's appeal to WWC voters in the red wall, the NI protocol or covid.
The big issues this week is who is going to win Eurovision! Has the UK stance on Ukraine won us any friends? Does the fact we actually have a good entry this year count for anything? eurovision.tv/Spain are supposed to be the favourites with UK second - but I'm sure Ukraine will do well.
We may not be in the European Union any more but at least we're still in Eurovision!
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 10, 2022 13:12:23 GMT
But the points made in the article I posted a link too are valid in Redditch. Brexit changed the atmosphere radically, as it did everywhere, and became a de facto cultural wedge issue for many, but Labour suddenly went from being ousted because of governmental disappointment, 1997-2010, to a party feared and loathed by many. Toxic even. I can't quite put my finger on the why or when, but the doorstep reaction mutated from "Brown bust the economy" to "you're just not a party interested in people like us anymore " The first rejection is based on perfectly recoverable political pendulum swinging, the second is almost existential. It's the second reason for rejection in places like Redditch that signifies the electoral and political mountain Labour must now climb. Surely the one thing which happened at that time was Brexit. There is a certain type of traditional labour voter who supported brexit, and therefore felt betrayed by remainish labour. But leave also played upon this and pushed the idea that remain labour had betrayed them. Leave equated labour with remain, which is where labour rightly should have been for the majority of its voters. Labour ended up pleasing no one by flatly opposing the redwall traditionalists, while only half heartedly supporting remain anyway and so offending remainers too. Truly pathetic performance.
The voters were correct they should vote con to get brexit. If it turns out brexit was not what is was said to be, then they will feel betrayed by leave and may return to labour. Or they may just feel betrayed by everyone, because its clear labour has a real problem with two very different blocks of support. I agree it isnt offering much to the traditionalists. Or at least, it certainly isnt explaining that the EU was the goose laying the golden eggs, or London is the city laying the golden eggs, and the shavings from them are what is keeping the abandoned north as afloat as it is.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 10, 2022 13:17:58 GMT
Can I just say you are all missing the point. The big issues is not 'partygate', 'beergate', Labour's appeal to WWC voters in the red wall, the NI protocol or covid.
The big issues this week is who is going to win Eurovision! Has the UK stance on Ukraine won us any friends? Does the fact we actually have a good entry this year count for anything? eurovision.tv/Spain are supposed to be the favourites with UK second - but I'm sure Ukraine will do well.
We may not be in the European Union any more but at least we're still in Eurovision! "We may not be in the European Union any more but at least we're still in Eurovision!" - So is Australia normally! |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 10, 2022 13:23:16 GMT
Hi domjg So is Australia normally!They were let in one year which was supposed to be a one off - but were allowed to stay. That's inclusivity for you. Their entrant this year is Sheldon Riley.
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Post by robbiealive on May 10, 2022 13:24:18 GMT
I thought this was an excellent and thought-provoking analysis of the demographic challenges that still pose problems for Labour's electoral and political recovery. It touches on the political importance still of social class identification... An interesting piece, but, IMO, flawed. The perception of class here is misplaced. Firstly, teachers could be said to be working class, although I get that someone who is a manual worker may see a teacher as someone in a higher class, but, if this is the case, why would someone who though this, that may see Labour as the same, vote for the party of Jacob Rees-Mogg and Rishi Sunak?God knows. The English used to be precociously urban, irreverent, monarchy- & aristocracy-loathing etc. In recent times they have tended to vote for the toffs, even Blair was quite posh. How many times have you heard a rich Tory tell the voters you need to tighten yr belts, make sacrifices. Instead of throwing things at 'em the response is to nod in robotic agreement! There are small signs things are changing under the cost-of-living crisis. But still a strong tendency to vote for the winners those seen aspirationally as yr social superiors. What explains this deference. Who knows. Poor educational standards indoctrinated with the legend of WW2, imperial fantasies, a strong and false notion of English exceptionalism, the reassuing continuity & seeming impregnability of nonsensical constitutional arrangements like the Monarchy. And the English working class have a long. long history, even when less deferential, of manipulable intolerance to immigrants, Jews, an intense dislike of Catholics: no one gave a toss about the EU until Farage linked it to immigration. It adds up to a notion of compound Englishness, patriotism, self-styled historical importance, anti-internationalism. an identity that is expressed by the toff party never by Labour. Johnson is a cheap crook but somehow he is one of us. End of mini-rant. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 10, 2022 13:27:36 GMT
Oh my goodness, frankly we must all be dead and dreaming we are still alive. This is all great fun alec, but we have no way to pevent people catching covid, and in the Uk at least we never did. People continued to catch covid despite all the interventions. Before vaccinations arrived, three strains of covid worked their way through the population until we achieved herd immunity too each and then it died out. Ther was nothing we could do to stop that. Interventions didnt work then and dont work now, omicron went straight through the population despite vaccination, and you seem to think the efficacy of the currently available vaccines will diminsh over time. We desperately need to move back to relying upon human immunity and the way we have evolved to manage diseases like this. There is nothing new about covid, we are evolved to be able to live with it. Meanwhile the world economy is shot because of lockdown disruption. Not covid illness, lockdown disruption. Covid itself would have caused minimal economic disruption had we treated it like any other similar illness, and basically ignored it. Deaths would have been just the same, mostly amongst the retired. |
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Post by alec on May 10, 2022 13:33:25 GMT
lens - "Oh, just give it a rest Alec! The person who is struggling to get a realistic view is you - just get a sense of perspective." Maybe lets agree that the continuation of this conversation is a little pointless? We won't agree, for now at least. Without wishing to blow my own trumpet too much, I would observe that I've been involved in similar disagreements over covid strategies with several posters over the last few years, and, oddly enough, my somewhat pessimistic realism has been proven much more accurate than the optimistic views painted by others on every single occasion. Of course, my caution may be misplaced this time, and that would be fine. I hope I am wrong. But I am not asking for huge spending or massive economic disruption; just a small number of simple, low cost measures that would protect against potential harms and be good for the economy, in various ways.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 10, 2022 13:42:10 GMT
An interesting piece, but, IMO, flawed. The perception of class here is misplaced. Firstly, teachers could be said to be working class, although I get that someone who is a manual worker may see a teacher as someone in a higher class, but, if this is the case, why would someone who though this, that may see Labour as the same, vote for the party of Jacob Rees-Mogg and Rishi Sunak?God knows. The English used to be precociously urban, irreverent, monarchy- & aristocracy-loathing etc. In recent times they have tended to vote for the toffs, even Blair was quite posh. How many times have you heard a rich Tory tell the voters you need to tighten yr belts, make sacrifices. Instead of throwing things at 'em the response is to nod in robotic agreement! There are small signs things are changing under the cost-of-living crisis. But still a strong tendency to vote for the winners those seen aspirationally as yr social superiors. What explains this deference. Who knows. Poor educational standards indoctrinated with the legend of WW2, imperial fantasies, a strong and false notion of English exceptionalism, the reassuing continuity & seeming impregnability of nonsensical constitutional arrangements like the Monarchy. And the English working class have a long. long history, even when less deferential, of manipulable intolerance to immigrants, Jews, an intense dislike of Catholics: no one gave a toss about the EU until Farage linked it to immigration. It adds up to a notion of compound Englishness, patriotism, self-styled historical importance, anti-internationalism. an identity that is expressed by the toff party never by Labour. Johnson is a cheap crook but somehow he is one of us. End of mini-rant. Lack of a proper revolution at some point? Modern French society is still in large part defined by 1789 and the German, esp Prussian aristocracy was comprehensively disinherited (though not completely wiped out) in 1945. |
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Post by hireton on May 10, 2022 13:43:22 GMT
Thanks Hireton. Just to introduce myself, I come from a 'Sarf' London Irish Background. A bit lefty and tribally Labour. A couple of years ago sick to the back teeth with Brexit I returned to Ireland and now view events across the water with a jaundiced but thankfully detached view . It's good to have comments from someone in Ireland as ProfHoward who used to provide such insights stopped posting. |
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Post by pete on May 10, 2022 13:54:45 GMT
The strategy appears twofold. Claim the moral high ground, less vacated more never occupied by Johnson, and calculate that no FPN will be forthcoming. It's a big personal gamble by Starmer because if his calculation his wrong, then he was in effect signing his own political death certificate this afternoon. Rayner too. They're either high stake rollers (Starmer???) or pretty confident that no laws were broken and Durham Police will exonerate them. I'd say the latter. What might be quite cute about the strategy is that it allows Starmer to put on a virtual virtue demonstration. Look at me, he's saying, I'm committing to you all that I will do the decent thing in the very unlikely event of me being found to have done something wrong. Which I haven't. Just saying, that's all. A sort of pain free non-resignation, contrasting himself to Johnson. It'll be interesting to see the next few polls, particularly Starmer's personal ratings. My first reaction was to feel sorry for the Durham police. They have been put in the position of having to decide if the Labour leader (and possibly the Conservative leader) steps down. Therefore potentially having to decide whether we have a new Prime Minister. It's quite wrong to put the police in this situation. Let's hope they can try to ignore the political impact and just evaluate the facts on a legal basis. I don't care about the result, but think Starmer should have said he would wait for the verdict before commenting. What he has done is pure political opportunism and is very unfair to the police. Starmer was pushed into saying something by the right-wing press who are now crying because he's put Boris in an awkward position. Blame lies with the press. |
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Post by crossbat11 on May 10, 2022 14:15:27 GMT
moby
Ah, yes, Anwar El Ghazi. I'd forgotten about him. You have not only my apologies but my deepest sympathies too.
😜😂🦉
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Post by pete on May 10, 2022 14:17:08 GMT
I thought this was an excellent and thought-provoking analysis of the demographic challenges that still pose problems for Labour's electoral and political recovery. It touches on the political importance still of social class identification, based much more on culture and education as opposed to economic or employment circumstance. It's where Labour are still suffering in terms of their appeal in formerly solidly Labour voting parts of the country. Corbynism offered no solution to this, and probably hastened the process of alienation, but Starmer's Labour is struggling with it too. The author doesn't offer easy solutions but points to what the party needs to do. I don't think, as Owen Jones argues in another article today, that more socialism is the answer. Somehow Labour has to shed the image that it's a party that just isn't interested in the humdrum and prosaic problems of most people's everyday lives. That they look down on people who often express inconvenient and uncomfortable frustrations with life. Frustrations expressed in ways that may anger meeting rooms full of the righteous and converted. That's the challenge for Labour I think. Don't pander to bigotry, but understand its origins and be humble too that the party's failures and image might just be part of the reason so many people reject them and instead buy populist Tory quack solutions. Anyway, it's an interesting read and, yes, like the author, I've been that middle class lefty intellectual travelling with a bunch of pissed up football fans who can't understand why I'm there!! A poignant metaphor. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/10/starmer-working-class-voters-labour-leader-brexitCouldn't they just bullsh*t some 3 word slogans and then not follow through and then do the same (see Northern power house to levelling up-get brexit done)? Seems to work work with my fellow working-class voters (throw in a bit of racism). |
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Post by mercian on May 10, 2022 14:35:41 GMT
I thought this was an excellent and thought-provoking analysis of the demographic challenges that still pose problems for Labour's electoral and political recovery. It touches on the political importance still of social class identification, based much more on culture and education as opposed to economic or employment circumstance. It's where Labour are still suffering in terms of their appeal in formerly solidly Labour voting parts of the country. Corbynism offered no solution to this, and probably hastened the process of alienation, but Starmer's Labour is struggling with it too. The author doesn't offer easy solutions but points to what the party needs to do. I don't think, as Owen Jones argues in another article today, that more socialism is the answer. Somehow Labour has to shed the image that it's a party that just isn't interested in the humdrum and prosaic problems of most people's everyday lives. That they look down on people who often express inconvenient and uncomfortable frustrations with life. Frustrations expressed in ways that may anger meeting rooms full of the righteous and converted. That's the challenge for Labour I think. Don't pander to bigotry, but understand its origins and be humble too that the party's failures and image might just be part of the reason so many people reject them and instead buy populist Tory quack solutions. Anyway, it's an interesting read and, yes, like the author, I've been that middle class lefty intellectual travelling with a bunch of pissed up football fans who can't understand why I'm there!! A poignant metaphor. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/10/starmer-working-class-voters-labour-leader-brexitGood article. It doesn't really offer any solutions, but does identify some of Labour's problems. |
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Post by pete on May 10, 2022 14:37:56 GMT
Stats for Lefties @leftiestats · 6m 🚨 NEW: Labour lead drops to 1pt (+/- since 26-27 Apr) 🔴 Lab 36% (-3) 🔵 Con 35% (+2) 🟠 LD 10% (-1) 🟢 Grn 8% (+2) 🟡 SNP 5% (-) 🟣 Ref 4% (+1) Seats (+/- since 2019): 🔵 Con 281 (-84) 🔴 Lab 270 (+68) 🟡 SNP 56 (+8) 🟠 LD 19 (+8) 🟢 Grn 1 (-) Via @yougov , 5-6 May They may well have moved due to negative press over Starmer but lets see if they stay there as the cost of living starts biting more and more. |
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Post by laszlo4new on May 10, 2022 14:38:55 GMT
Marcos Jnr won the Philippines presidential elections with a massive lead. So, 1986 didn't lead anywhere there...
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Post by mercian on May 10, 2022 14:47:45 GMT
Hi moby and crossbat11 ...A lot is made of the supposed desire of Brexit voters to 'turn the clock back', etc but in reality many voted that way due to their desire for change. For these voters membership of the EU was the status quo, and hadn't reversed economic decline and had helped decrease wc salaries. Labour when in power, nationally and locally, hasn't delivered the rejuvenation of the former industrial heartlands (which were hit hard by the economic downturn and then austerity). Educated MC voters may have scoffed at the naivety of thinking Brexit would bring the industrial jobs back - but from the perspective of these voters what else did they have to lose.
... Exactly! It's nice to see a bit of common sense for a change. Some LoC posters on here have a very patronising attitude to anyone who doesn't agree with them - particularly Leave voters. If Labour are to be anything more than a 'metropolitan elite' and inner-city immigrant party they will have to engage with their traditional base. |
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Post by hireton on May 10, 2022 14:51:11 GMT
lululemonmustdobetter". had helped decrease wc salaries." Could you define "working class" and point to your evidence that such salaries have decreased? "...and hadn't reversed economic decline" What decline and where?
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alurqa
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Freiburg im Breisgau's flag
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Post by alurqa on May 10, 2022 14:52:30 GMT
Can I just say you are all missing the point. The big issues is not 'partygate', 'beergate', Labour's appeal to WWC voters in the red wall, the NI protocol or covid.
The big issues this week is who is going to win Eurovision! Has the UK stance on Ukraine won us any friends? Does the fact we actually have a good entry this year count for anything? eurovision.tv/Spain are supposed to be the favourites with UK second - but I'm sure Ukraine will do well.
We may not be in the European Union any more but at least we're still in Eurovision! Well I still think Iceland should have won it. I loved "Double Trouble". But then again, they'd have to host it:
Oh I see. You mean the real one, where they have had up to 600 million viewers. That's just amazing.
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Post by mercian on May 10, 2022 14:55:14 GMT
Mercian's position on here is akin those tribespeople anthropologists used to encounter in the deepest Amazon in the '50s. All other members of the tribe had been wiped out by western diseases transmitted by previous anthropologists & the one survivor speaks a language no one else understood. Frantic efforts are made by linguists to interpret but the language follows no known rules & remains unintelligible: the forlorn survivor expires, his picture appearing in the Sunday People under the headline the world's loneliest man. Just because most of my fellow tribesmen have been driven away by the interminable Labour branch meeting arguments doesn't mean you can all live in your little self-righteous bubble undisturbed. I will continue to bring common sense and incisive commentary to the board. 😁 And besides I think I'm more like the last three survivors at Camerone who, surrounded by thousands of Mexicans and had run out of bullets fixed bayonets and charged. |
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Post by Old Southendian on May 10, 2022 14:57:57 GMT
They may well have moved due to negative press over Starmer but lets see if they stay there as the cost of living starts biting more and more. Could be, or maybe just the usual occasional fluctuation. If it really is just due to the recent Starmer coverage, it's a sad reflection on how much the press and/or Tory spin machine makes the weather. They've managed to completely squash any talk of the considerable losses in the council elections. I'll admit it's difficult to sell the results as good for Labour, but really it was pretty disasterous for the Torys. No-one really expected 800 losses, but the loss of almost 500 councilors must have been as bad as any realistic worst case scenario. |
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Post by robbiealive on May 10, 2022 15:00:42 GMT
It adds up to a notion of compound Englishness, patriotism, self-styled historical importance, anti-internationalism. an identity that is expressed by the toff party never by Labour. Johnson is a cheap crook but somehow he is one of us. End of mini-rant. Lack of a proper revolution at some point? Modern French society is still in large part defined by 1789 and the German, esp Prussian aristocracy was comprehensively disinherited (though not completely wiped out) in 1945. Agreed. I posted on this before. The incompetence & selfishness of the English ruling class has never been exposed & crushed by war or revolution. Hence the claim for continuity. As my socialist-London-taxi-drving Uncle (he served throughout the war as did all all my uncs, dad etc) "the rich got us into an unholy mess & we got them out of it". Labour had to grapple with the economic aftermath & by '51 the toff party was back in power. Ah well. |
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Post by pete on May 10, 2022 15:04:10 GMT
They may well have moved due to negative press over Starmer but lets see if they stay there as the cost of living starts biting more and more. Could be, or maybe just the usual occasional fluctuation. If it really is just due to the recent Starmer coverage, it's a sad reflection on how much the press and/or Tory spin machine makes the weather. They've managed to completely squash any talk of the considerable losses in the council elections. I'll admit it's difficult to sell the results as good for Labour, but really it was pretty disasterous for the Torys. No-one really expected 800 losses, but the loss of almost 500 councilors must have been as bad as any realistic worst case scenario. Yep, but those council losses will be talked of again. As will partygate, brexit shambles, cost of living crisis. The Tory party is out of ideas and spin only gets you so far when people are suffering. Daily Fails comment section of Bojo the clowns non help for Cost of Living Crisis and theyre not happy www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10800443/Under-fire-Boris-bid-track-Queens-Speech-plans.html#comments |
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Post by mercian on May 10, 2022 15:04:55 GMT
Oh, just give it a rest Alec! It does make one wonder who was more at fault in the legendary and interminable alec and TW spat. |
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Post by pete on May 10, 2022 15:06:19 GMT
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 10, 2022 15:14:32 GMT
Hi moby and crossbat11 ...A lot is made of the supposed desire of Brexit voters to 'turn the clock back', etc but in reality many voted that way due to their desire for change. For these voters membership of the EU was the status quo, and hadn't reversed economic decline and had helped decrease wc salaries. Labour when in power, nationally and locally, hasn't delivered the rejuvenation of the former industrial heartlands (which were hit hard by the economic downturn and then austerity). Educated MC voters may have scoffed at the naivety of thinking Brexit would bring the industrial jobs back - but from the perspective of these voters what else did they have to lose.
... Exactly! It's nice to see a bit of common sense for a change. Some LoC posters on here have a very patronising attitude to anyone who doesn't agree with them - particularly Leave voters. If Labour are to be anything more than a 'metropolitan elite' and inner-city immigrant party they will have to engage with their traditional base. What is 'metropolitan elite' actually supposed to mean? Because if it means 10's of millions of people who happen to have a liberal international mindset it's pretty meaningless isn't it? I live in the countryside and my bank balance and background show that I can't be classed as 'elite' in any meaningful sense of the word and yet I suspect I hold dear many of the views that would be handily dismissed by RoCs as 'metropolitan elite'.. It's just a means to allow the right to pretend that 'ordinary' people are mostly conservative brexiters which is obviously nonsense as the close referendum result makes clear. |
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Post by robbiealive on May 10, 2022 15:15:06 GMT
I will continue to bring common sense and incisive commentary to the board. 😁 And besides I think I'm more like the last three survivors at Camerone who, surrounded by thousands of Mexicans and had run out of bullets fixed bayonets and charged. Mercian or shall we call you Beau Geste as you idolise the French F Legion. (Marie Le Pen was a member, perhaps another hero). As for common sense: it's common sense to believe the world is flat. |
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