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Post by birdseye on Jan 14, 2022 8:41:02 GMT
birdseye
While I don't necessarily agree with pete that Gray has "been given her orders", he didn't say who he thought had been giving the orders. It may well be that senior members of the civil service are concerned that it is they who might have to carry the can for public opprobrium, as their political masters cut them loose. A quiet word of advice may have been given by such a person. I dont buy that. Senior civil servants survive on anonymity and the pretence that its ministers who do everything and know everything thats going on. Joe Public hasnt a clue who these senior civil servants are.
As for
"Boris doesn't believe in anything other than Boris. He is not a man of principle, let alone ideology. He opted for the Brexit camp because he saw this as an opportunity to differentiate himself from Cameron and move closer to the party leadership, which was always his objective."
I always thought that was the traditional appeal of the Tories ( Maggie excepted) that they were pragmatists without an ideology. The public mistrust believers whether religious or political.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 14, 2022 8:41:17 GMT
What mattered to them more than anything else was that he was an election winner. They cared little about his lack of integrity and morality. What does this say about them! Couldn't agree more. The Tory MPs and membership voted overwhelmingly for Johnson, knowing he was an amoral, lying narcissist. They voted solely on the basis that they thought he would win the election. Similarly Tory MPs now are not bothered that he's behaved exactly as an amoral, lying narcissist would but that the polling is showing he's not an electoral asset any more. No principles, nothing except what will serve themselves. The Tory party has to bear the responsibility for this as much as Johnson. They fawned and facilitated, tolerated and looked away as long as he was polling well. Disgusting and I hope the whole party pays for this. "Similarly Tory MPs now are not bothered that he's behaved exactly as an amoral, lying narcissist would but that the polling is showing he's not an electoral asset any more" Yes and this is a very worrying trait they share with US republicans not all of whom are Trump worshipping maniacs but nonetheless would give a lizard the nomination if they thought that would work for them electorally. It's an amoral mentality I just don't get and I've been unpleasantly surprised that so many on the right seem to embrace this way of thinking. |
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Post by hireton on Jan 14, 2022 8:42:21 GMT
It appears that the Met Police could enforce covid regulations in Hackney on the night of the latest No 10 party:
The "one rule for them...." line is toxic for Johnson and his supporters.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 14, 2022 8:50:15 GMT
alec Happy to advise both of you which is the right end of a gun. Wouldn't handbags be preferable? I remember once walking past an embassy in London with its armed protection officer outside thinking 'oops-ive still got a box of ammunition in my pocket'. |
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Post by steve on Jan 14, 2022 8:54:37 GMT
hireton Entirely agree, other than the stuff about the " nation being in morning etc " and while I have no respect for the Windsor hereditary status the primary issue is the apparent disparity of enforcement. Whether the restrictions were justified or not the people that could reasonably be expected to fully comply should clearly be those in or working for the administration that imposed them. I mentioned earlier the issues about enforcement on crown property,which also frankly look like yet another example of one rule for the elite and another for the rest of us.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 14, 2022 8:55:59 GMT
@danny
Was that a box of ammunition or were you just happy to see them!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 8:58:54 GMT
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 14, 2022 8:59:37 GMT
@danny Was that a box of ammunition or were you just happy to see them! His gun reminded me I still had the ammunition in my pocket, though I didnt have a gun. Had just been shooting not 100 yards from where he was standing. Mate of mine though said the official advice was if he was carrying a pistol in London, to wear it in a shoulder holster. made you wonder just how many people might be doing that. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 14, 2022 9:22:58 GMT
colin You can accuse Corbyn of many things and believe me I did but a lack of principles isn't one of them. Ironically the Labour party stuck by Corbyn despite knowing he was not an electoral asset showing that for them principle was the more important issue. Supposed electability was way down the list of factors that got Corbyn the leadership. It's the exact opposite of the case with Johnson. Electability is very important in a party leader clearly but it needs to be paired with integrity. For the Tory party in 2019 electability in the moment was all that mattered. They didn't even care though many of them must have known, that this day would come sooner rather than later. It was a strategic failure, just postponing the meltdown. No PM with an 80 seat majority should be in this position 2 years after their election.
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 14, 2022 9:24:27 GMT
Question Time was predictably brutal last night. Lots of alleged Tory voters claiming that they wouldn't vote Tory again (I know, stop laughing at the back of the class), but the anger and, it has to be said, ridicule too was palpable. The poor sap who'd been put up as Tory spokesman (Sec of State for Wales apparently) battled away manfully, but it was a hopeless case he was defending and he almost gave up halfway through.
Jess Phillips was quite effective. Not agressive and abusive, but more sad that it had come to all this. She surfed the audience anger, but avoided stoking it with extreme rhetoric. Exactly my sort of opposition politics. Kill your opponents with kindness. Not bad people but pretty useless people was her line. That echoed Starmer's killer conference speech line too. Johnson isn't a bad man, he's a trivial man. You can tease Tory voters from their voting habits that way. You're not voting for a bad man, for who likes being told that, you're voting for the wrong man. Not scum, just people who aren't very good at governing. Jess Phillips is my sort of politician.
But here was the extraordinary bit. The most brutal of all the panelists was Isobel Oakeshott! Savage about Johnson, and savage towards the Tory spokesman.
More grist to my mill about how spooked Toryland is becoming. They're hearing ridicule coming their way. Politically fatal.
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Post by tancred on Jan 14, 2022 9:27:49 GMT
What's the latest on Starmer's alleged breach of the rules? Is this just a decoy made up by the Tory papers or does it have some validity?
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 14, 2022 9:28:09 GMT
Hi Danny However, I have to mention that you yourself just made a covid post. Yes on the Covid thread - I don't think reminding posters that there is a separate thread for covid counts as posting about covid, and commenting on partygate is different to discussions about SA/herd immunity etc. Such post distract us from the primary function of this thread which is to lampoon our ridiculous PM till he see the light and resigns.  ☮ Perhaps you and Alex should seek satisfaction in a duel? Posts at dawn? I agree with La Citron Danny, your constant covid posts get ignored by all except Alec, so why not give our scrolling fingers a rest and both of you take your correspondence to where it won't disrupt our ritual evisceration of the current dishonest prime minister. If you seek the oxygen that this thread provides then at least have the graciousness to mingle it with levity, football, cricket, fridge reviews, la tittle tattle Francaise, synths, and possibly polling. That last one I made up. Indeed. Danny does have interesting things worth reading to say about politics more widely but I often miss them because I assume every post of his is re-iterating some out there covid position I've seen a thousand times already and skip past it. |
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Post by tancred on Jan 14, 2022 9:36:38 GMT
I think the focus should not extend (as it seems it is) to the role of the police in all of this. Apparently security officers had to check and vet the garden to ensure the PM would be safe, before he ventured outside. They were not only stationed in the street outside but on the roof and elsewhere. I know it is difficult to stick your hand up and cause trouble but surely one of them had the moral courage to say, 'this is wrong'. Perhaps they did and were told to shut up and do their job. No doubt we will find out. They were told to shut up and do their jobs. The PM is the head of government, not an ordinary Joe Bloggs. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 9:42:39 GMT
colin You can accuse Corbyn of many things and believe me I did but a lack of principles isn't one of them. Ironically the Labour party stuck by Corbyn despite knowing he was not an electoral asset showing that for them principle was the more important issue. Supposed electability was way down the list of factors that got Corbyn the leadership. It's the exact opposite of the case with Johnson. Electability is very important in a party leader clearly but it needs to be paired with integrity. For the Tory party in 2019 electability in the moment was all that mattered. They didn't even care though many of them must have known, that this day would come sooner rather than later. It was a strategic failure, just postponing the meltdown. No PM with an 80 seat majority should be in this position 2 years after their election. Well I didn't mention Corbyn-you did. Labour have had Leaders who became Prime Ministers too. For me , Moralising about and in Politics is unwise. And my perception , over the years, is that The Political Left are attracted to Moral High Ground too easily. It can, in my view, , leave far too few people looking down , and far too many looking up. Johnson was a risk for the Conservative Party. They must deal with it. |
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Post by robert on Jan 14, 2022 9:45:56 GMT
@domng
"colin You can accuse Corbyn of many things and believe me I did but a lack of principles isn't one of them. "
Indeed, his fulsom support for various terrorist organisations over the years has been very principled and I have to say, unwavering.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 9:48:37 GMT
@domng "colin You can accuse Corbyn of many things and believe me I did but a lack of principles isn't one of them. " Indeed, his fulsom support for various terrorist organisations over the years has been very principled and I have to say, unwavering.   |
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Post by domjg on Jan 14, 2022 9:53:41 GMT
colin You can accuse Corbyn of many things and believe me I did but a lack of principles isn't one of them. Ironically the Labour party stuck by Corbyn despite knowing he was not an electoral asset showing that for them principle was the more important issue. Supposed electability was way down the list of factors that got Corbyn the leadership. It's the exact opposite of the case with Johnson. Electability is very important in a party leader clearly but it needs to be paired with integrity. For the Tory party in 2019 electability in the moment was all that mattered. They didn't even care though many of them must have known, that this day would come sooner rather than later. It was a strategic failure, just postponing the meltdown. No PM with an 80 seat majority should be in this position 2 years after their election. Well I didn't mention Corbyn-you did. Labour have had Leaders who became Prime Ministers too. For me , Moralising about and in Politics is unwise. And my perception , over the years, is that The Political Left are attracted to Moral High Ground too easily. It can, in my view, , leave far too few people looking down , and far too many looking up. Johnson was a risk for the Conservative Party. They must deal with it. "Well I didn't mention Corbyn-you did" - Gimme a break Colin, who were you alluding to, Michael Foot? Politics has to be about leading as well as listening, there has to be some setting of moral expectations. Whether we like it or not the politicians we elect set the moral mood for the nation to an extent and what they say or do influences what many in wider society deem to be acceptable. They need to have the courage to tell people that certain attitudes, behaviours are wrong it's as simple as that. With Johnson it's not just about moralising in any case it's about the fact that he was unfit for office on so many levels not just a moral one. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 14, 2022 9:55:41 GMT
@domng "colin You can accuse Corbyn of many things and believe me I did but a lack of principles isn't one of them. " Indeed, his fulsom support for various terrorist organisations over the years has been very principled and I have to say, unwavering. I was as happy as Larry the day Keir Starmer was elected leader of the Labour party but that is nonetheless a very silly post. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 14, 2022 9:56:50 GMT
@domng "colin You can accuse Corbyn of many things and believe me I did but a lack of principles isn't one of them. " Indeed, his fulsom support for various terrorist organisations over the years has been very principled and I have to say, unwavering.      |
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Post by guymonde on Jan 14, 2022 9:57:09 GMT
Question Time was predictably brutal last night. Lots of alleged Tory voters claiming that they wouldn't vote Tory again (I know, stop laughing at the back of the class), but the anger and, it has to be said, ridicule too was palpable. The poor sap who'd been put up as Tory spokesman (Sec of State for Wales apparently) battled away manfully, but it was a hopeless case he was defending and he almost gave up halfway through. Jess Phillips was quite effective. Not agressive and abusive, but more sad that it had come to all this. She surfed the audience anger, but avoided stoking it with extreme rhetoric. Exactly my sort of opposition politics. Kill your opponents with kindness. Not bad people but pretty useless people was her line. That echoed Starmer's killer conference speech line too. Johnson isn't a bad man, he's a trivial man. You can tease Tory voters from their voting habits that way. You're not voting for a bad man, for who likes being told that, you're voting for the wrong man. Not scum, just people who aren't very good at governing. Jess Phillips is my sort of politician. But here was the extraordinary bit. The most brutal of all the panelists was Isobel Oakeshott! Savage about Johnson, and savage towards the Tory spokesman. More grist to my mill about how spooked Toryland is becoming. They're hearing ridicule coming their way. Politically fatal. I thought it was pretty striking how many hands went up when asked about who was an ex-Tory voter. there were audible gasps. Of course, us old cynics know that many will drift back, but as you say, the anger was palpable. The egregious Oakeshott didn't really surprise me "you've got a lot of nerve, to say you are my friend, when I was down, you just stood there grinning. Yes, you've got a lotta nerve, to say you have a helping hand to lend, you just want to be on the side that's winning" I almost never watch that programme because it's bad for my blood pressure but last night was balm until it came to the woke-balls section at the end. Again, Jess banging on about Snickers was kind of off-piste but captured what I was thinking. |
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Post by barbara on Jan 14, 2022 9:57:22 GMT
@domng "colin You can accuse Corbyn of many things and believe me I did but a lack of principles isn't one of them. " Indeed, his fulsom support for various terrorist organisations over the years has been very principled and I have to say, unwavering. Corbyn had many personality facets and did many thinks that made him totally unsuitable as PM material. At least as unsuitable as Johnson. The difference between the two is that Johnson behaved entirely according to his own advancement. Corbyn behaved entirely according to his principles ( however misguided). That is why Corbyn spend 30 odd years on the back benches (where he deserved to be) and where he consistently voted with his conscience including frequently against his own party when it was in government. Johnson wasn't interested in being a backbench MP - he just wanted power and adulation. And that's the difference. I was making a moral point about Johnson - if it's right to make a moral point about anyone it's surely about Johnson - and it's telling that the poster criticising my post made it about the left - whereas I would hope that any decent person - left or right - would recognise the amorality of Johnson and his total unsuitabililty for the post of PM. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 9:59:24 GMT
domjg@"Politics has to be about leading as well as listening, there has to be some setting of moral expectations." Leading & Listening-and for me some other key things too-yes. " moral expectations" -whatever that means-not so sure.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 10:01:58 GMT
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 14, 2022 10:08:36 GMT
Interesting one of the parties was for James Slack, Boris Johnson’s former head of communications and now Deputy Editor of the Sun.
Perhaps it explains why the Sun has been one if the less vocal critics of Johnson and his parties
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 14, 2022 10:14:33 GMT
If Colin is a "God" now he's got his fifth star, I wonder, if and when I post enough to attain that elevated status, whether I could ask Mark to be afforded the title "Agnostic" instead?
Reflecting not so much complete disbelief in God but more a deep scepticism and doubt.
😂🤣👺
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 14, 2022 10:22:23 GMT
domjg @"Politics has to be about leading as well as listening, there has to be some setting of moral expectations." Leading & Listening-and for me some other key things too-yes. " moral expectations" -whatever that means-not so sure. Fair enough but whether we like it or not esp in a mass media age leading governing politicians are in a position of great influence. If for example a PM gives the impression that a certain prejudice is acceptable then many of those in wider society holding that prejudice will feel emboldened to express it openly and others will be less likely to check themselves if they feel that way inclined. Power and responsibility and all that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 10:28:09 GMT
So in Nov 21 we got back to Mar 2020 levels (whatever measure of level that is) - and then of course Omicron struck! Not going to help much unless people's wages keep up with costs. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 10:29:14 GMT
domjg @"Politics has to be about leading as well as listening, there has to be some setting of moral expectations." Leading & Listening-and for me some other key things too-yes. " moral expectations" -whatever that means-not so sure. Fair enough but whether we like it or not esp in a mass media age leading governing politicians are in a position of great influence. If for example a PM gives the impression that a certain prejudice is acceptable then many of those in wider society holding that prejudice will feel emboldened to express it openly and others will be less likely to check themselves if they feel that way inclined. Power and responsibility and all that. Best we dont pursue that I think -it will be endless and boring. I'm sure we could agree on a few specific key attributes of our desired political leadership. I have no doubt too that our specification would exclude any politician we have known. But Morality/Ethics !-its a minefield &( insofar as I understand it) I'm a bit more Wittgenstein than Chomsky.  |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 14, 2022 10:29:25 GMT
birdseye
While I don't necessarily agree with pete that Gray has "been given her orders", he didn't say who he thought had been giving the orders. It may well be that senior members of the civil service are concerned that it is they who might have to carry the can for public opprobrium, as their political masters cut them loose. A quiet word of advice may have been given by such a person. I dont buy that. Senior civil servants survive on anonymity and the pretence that its ministers who do everything and know everything thats going on. Joe Public hasnt a clue who these senior civil servants are.
As for
"Boris doesn't believe in anything other than Boris. He is not a man of principle, let alone ideology. He opted for the Brexit camp because he saw this as an opportunity to differentiate himself from Cameron and move closer to the party leadership, which was always his objective."
I always thought that was the traditional appeal of the Tories ( Maggie excepted) that they were pragmatists without an ideology. The public mistrust believers whether religious or political.
Pragmatists huh? Hard Brexit leading to NI instability, pragmatic? Hobbling UK exporters for only ideological reasons, pragmatic? Leaving any pan european organisation ie Erasmus just because it's a pan european organisation, pragmatic? Stuffing the cabinet with those selected for their Brexit zeal rather than ability, pragmatic? Johnson's govt is the nearest to government by narrow religious sect (whether he personally believes in it or not) that we've ever had. Pragmatic my ...! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 10:31:48 GMT
" moral expectations" -whatever that means-not so sure. Integrity? Keeping your word? Doing or at least making some attempt to do, what you promise to do? There was a time when integrity and trust were the pre-requisites of following a leader. But now you don't even know what "moral expectations" are? Might explain why you voted for a lying, crooked charlatan. |
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☮ Perhaps you and Alex should seek satisfaction in a duel? Posts at dawn?
