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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Jan 14, 2022 6:50:59 GMT
Morning all from a sun is yet to grace our skies PSRLPartygate continues to rumble on and doesnt't look like going anywhere soon;www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/13/two-downing-street-parties-held-evening-before-prince-philips-funeral-reportsI don’t normally watch BBC1 news but did yesterday and it was the main news item (C4 news last night led with Andrew). I'm not sure the Tory defence, that it’s quibbling over 25minutes, didn't he do well with the vaccines and Brexit so let’s cut him some slack is going to work. The it’s 'one rule us another for them' and 'just what do they think they were playing at' views seem to be dominating.
It's well known that Carrie Antoinette likes parties - so the notion this all went on without Johnson's knowledge/agreement is ludicrous.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 14, 2022 6:54:33 GMT
South Africa has vaccinated 70% of those over 60, and 60% of those over 50. They have NOT relied on herd immunity, complete b******s from you as usual. With, as I said, a total of only 30% of their population having been vaccinated and only twice. And yet they had only a minor problem with omicron. What else could they have relied upon for this except the remaining 70% of the population being sufficiently immune to the disease that it didnt need vaccination at all? Are you agreeing that it was never necessary to vacinate the other 70% and therefore was not necessary to do so here either? @danny - "And yet South Africa relied upon herd immunity with only 30% of the population vaccinated by deliberate design, to successfully end their omicron outbreak." 'Success' is relative, I guess, and 'deliberate design' is a simple lie. Ah...can you give me some source for your interpretaion of why SA only vaccinated 30% of the population, which shows it was not deliberate policy, so as to put me right on this? Its pretty much agreed by epidemiological experts that any kind of measures which slow spread do not reduce the total number of cases. Because they only slow spread while they are in place. Either the whole epidemic therefore takes longer to go through the population, or it dies down only to shoot back up once restrictions end. Reports from SA suggest essentially 100% of the population has been exposed to omicron, and everyone has either been ill or must have been exposed to it but didnt get ill because they had immunity. The link says SA has changed policy to living with covid. They are deliberately not going to vaccinate more than the 30% they have vaccinated, and are reducing remaining restrictions with an intention of not reintroducing them. In future protection from covid will be by personal immunity. Immunity acquired post infection. I dont understand how the facts you cite do not support what I have been saying alll along?
What seems to have happened with omicron is it is a rather more infectious variant than previous ones. I would argue it has essentially overcome more of our existing immunty so as to do this, but by whatever mechanism it has spread much more readily and has overcome all attempts to prevent this. SA didnt stop spread despite all restrictions in place or the total vaccinated. The UK did not stop spread despite all measures in place and its much higher percentage of vaccinations. Cases in SA have now tumbled. While in the Uk they are going down, its too early to say they will go fast to zero or instead plateau as per delta. The problem with sustained interventions is they keep it going longer - we managed to change delta into a chronic disease which was killing smaller numbers per month but had been plodding on for 4-5 months at the same rate! What a towering success to turn it into a chronic disease killing just as many but slowly, and paralysing the NHS' other work for a much longer time.
One of the reasons omicron looks to be much safer is exactly because it spreads faster and so ends faster. We have made everything worse by deliberately preventing this epidemic ending naturally. Omicron is expected to infect essentially the entire Uk population and in so doing vaccinate them against delta, thereby ending the steady delta death rate which had become established. This is why omicron has been described as the vaccine to end the epidemic... yet the Uk tried to prevent us getting it.
The unfortunate problem is that had we allowed the original spring 2020 outbreak to end naturally, it would have not have killed more but have avoided the need for sustained restrictions and provided more immunity against further waves. Hence no september 2020 wave, maybe no kent wave because there would have been no september prevalence to spin off a new strain. We did exactly what you must not do if you want to prevent new strains to arise, we kept it going longer.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 14, 2022 7:04:05 GMT
I see Novax Novak has had his visa cancelled. Oh dear, how sad, never mind
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 14, 2022 7:14:54 GMT
I see Novax Novak has had his visa cancelled. Oh dear, how sad, never mind Ah, but will be be able to continue the rally and hit the visa ball back into the government side again? |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 14, 2022 7:17:20 GMT
Do they sit around in their posh armchairs asking if anyone has got a spare navy title they want to hand over in return for an army one? It just sounds weird. Well, the whole thing about someone purportedly being “royal” is weird. In a properly equal society we would ALL be royal and get to wave at people we didn’t know. have you watched 'the crown'? Its an essay on the rationale for having an impotent ruler.
Also incidentally on the disadvantages of being born into such a situation, and the harm inflicted upon a family so as to maintain the existence of that institution.
Maybe the windsors should have taken their personal assets and told the politicians to go screw themselves and sort out the failing mess which is the british structure of government. Instead of propping up a method of undemocratic government by two wholly unrepresentative private clubs, the labour and conservatives political parties. Today my youngest son was watching Newsround at school in class. Afterwards the teacher asked them to put their hands up if they thought Johnson should resign - all of the class raised their hands up. We are teaching our children well in the PSRL. The Starmer Youthquake rumbles on! The fact the current conservative administration is looking increasingly lawbreaking might encourage more people to support their opponents, but its all reasons to vote 'against' one party, not 'for' another. Labour's most obvious recent policy has been to call for more covid restrictions, which were contrary to the national interest. Otherwise, what have they done which is actively popular? |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 14, 2022 7:26:29 GMT
When DRoss spoke to Johnson to suggest he resign, it is reported that Johnson told him that there was more to come. Now - My tongue was a little in my cheek when I asked yesterday if Downing Street held a disco for it's staff would it break lockdown rules... Looks like I wasn't that far out |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 14, 2022 7:33:23 GMT
oldnat If that tweet you posted is true, everything I said is/was academic. Assuming he goes by the start of next week, at least he can, presumably, meet her majesty over zoom. If the Wednesday Event was bad, can you imagine what the next in person meeting with Brenda will be like? The Queen will have acted according to convention to support the government, by scrupulously following covid rules in public. There was some complaint before about royals doing trips contrary to rules, which probably reinforced this. It might be important to say 'in public', since Buckingham palace has a very much nicer and bigger garden than number ten. But thus far no suggestions of royal rulebreaking. Its not really comparable to juxtapose the queen at a state funeral with theoretically secret parties amongst the staff at number ten.
The real lesson is that political staff and indeed decision making politicians would not have attended parties if they truly believed there was risk to their own health or even to that of the nation. They acted as if there was no such risk, because realistically they knew there was no significant risk. Government has behaved throughout as though it is folowing medical advice because that is the politically safe course, but without believing either the advice is right, or even if it is and taking a wider view of national interest, is net beneficial.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 14, 2022 7:34:33 GMT
😀
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Jan 14, 2022 7:40:55 GMT
Will be interesting to see if the the latest revelations about a party before Prince Philips funeral will impact Tory VI in the +55 demogrpahic.
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Post by alec on Jan 14, 2022 7:50:25 GMT
@danny - "I dont understand how the facts you cite do not support what I have been saying alll along?"
Yes, let's just agree on that and leave it there.
You really don't understand.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 14, 2022 7:56:23 GMT
@danny - "I dont understand how the facts you cite do not support what I have been saying alll along?" Yes, let's just agree on that and leave it there. You really don't understand. I understand perfectly the political tactic that if you cannot counter the arguments made by an opponent, the accepted course is to attack their probity. Conservatives in particular have applied this to great effect against labour for decades. Which probably says something about the nature of the case being made by each side.
I also understand you are either unwilling or unable to substantiate your recent claim that i lied. Perhaps you should be more careful of your language?
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Jan 14, 2022 7:59:29 GMT
alec & DannyHi guys, just want to point out this is the 'slagging of Johnson thread', there is a seperearte thread for Covid. 
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 14, 2022 8:01:15 GMT
alec & Danny Hi guys, just want to point out this is the 'slagging of Johnson thread', there is a seperearte thread for Covid.  This isnt about covid, but about posters throwing around allegations of lying which they cannot substantiate. No one should be doing that on here.
However, I have to mention that you yourself just made a covid post. It is the most influential topic in politics today and must be reported on here. Its critical to government support what the public believes about covid, and how the covid propaganda battle is going. Nothing could be plainer that this is a political rather than health battle than how conservative politicians and advisors have behaved in contrast to their public statements on a need for national restrictions. Its obvious this is politics not medicine. Although con are losing the battle that they failed to follow rules themsleves, they are still largely winning the war that any of those restrictions were necessary. Its better for them to say they broke the rules, than that the rules were pointless. But once it becomes clear the rules were pointless, as they seem to have believed, it could be a crippling political blow to both con and lab. Although at the moment con are the ones showing they never did believe in the rules and thus open to charges of hypocrisy, or more seriously imposing catastrophic harm upon the UK they knew was avoidable.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 14, 2022 8:18:58 GMT
Barry Gardiner MP branded as a "useful idiot" in home office Chinese spy deflection from Spaffer effort.
Ridiculous
Gardiner isn't useful.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Jan 14, 2022 8:19:58 GMT
Hi Danny However, I have to mention that you yourself just made a covid post. Yes on the Covid thread - I don't think reminding posters that there is a separate thread for covid counts as posting about covid, and commenting on partygate is different to discussions about SA/herd immunity etc. Such post distract us from the primary function of this thread which is to lampoon our ridiculous PM till he see the light and resigns. ☮ Perhaps you and Alex should seek satisfaction in a duel? Posts at dawn?
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 14, 2022 8:23:46 GMT
@danny
I would agree on the political significance of covid but the possibility that most of the restrictions imposed weren't necessary, something I am inclined to agree with incidentally, isn't the principal impact of covid policy on politics.
It's the hypocrisy of the people imposing the restrictions failing to comply with them that's had political break through.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 14, 2022 8:24:12 GMT
Hi Danny However, I have to mention that you yourself just made a covid post. Yes on the Covid thread - I don't think reminding posters that there is a separate thread for covid counts as posting about covid, and commenting on partygate is different to discussions about SA/herd immunity etc. Such post distract us from the primary function of this thread which is to lampoon our ridiculous PM till he see the light and resigns. ☮ Perhaps you and Alex should seek satisfaction in a duel? Posts at dawn? No, see above: Will be interesting to see if the the latest revelations about a party before Prince Philips funeral will impact Tory VI in the +55 demogrpahic. Its a covid post. It makes no sense based upon the words you posted except that everyone understands you are talking about covid and covid regulations. It doesnt stop being a covid post because you rely upon shorthand.
Otherwise, any time Alec calls me a liar on this thread, I reserve the right which anyone should have of replying in detail to his allegations. Everyone should have that right, anywhere. Even if the only reason he does so is in the hope I will write a long reply and then get banned from posting here at all. Its all about devious tricks to get your argument across in the face of truth. The essence of politics.
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Post by alec on Jan 14, 2022 8:31:03 GMT
lululemonmustdobetter - "Perhaps you and Alex should seek satisfaction in a duel?" Wouldn't work. Danny would hold the wrong end of the gun, then when he lay dying after shooting himself in the head he would claim he's fine and that this was an old wound he picked up in Hastings in 2019 that doesn't really hurt.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 14, 2022 8:31:21 GMT
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Post by alec on Jan 14, 2022 8:33:21 GMT
@danny - "I also understand you are either unwilling or unable to substantiate your recent claim that i lied. Perhaps you should be more careful of your language?"
Knowingly repeated information you know to be false is lying.
As @lululemo says, lets just leave this. You won't see sense, and there is no point.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Jan 14, 2022 8:33:31 GMT
@danny
Its a covid post. It makes no sense based upon the words you posted except that everyone understands you are talking about covid and covid regulations. It doesnt stop being a covid post because you rely upon shorthand.
Really?
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 14, 2022 8:33:46 GMT
alec Happy to advise both of you which is the right end of a gun. Wouldn't handbags be preferable?
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Post by barbara on Jan 14, 2022 8:34:00 GMT
Aye, they ignored all the warnings, and all the little signs, as long as he kept winding up the right people. Sad, that so many can be fooled by so few for so much. What mattered to them more than anything else was that he was an election winner. They cared little about his lack of integrity and morality. What does this say about them! Couldn't agree more. The Tory MPs and membership voted overwhelmingly for Johnson, knowing he was an amoral, lying narcissist. They voted solely on the basis that they thought he would win the election. Similarly Tory MPs now are not bothered that he's behaved exactly as an amoral, lying narcissist would but that the polling is showing he's not an electoral asset any more. No principles, nothing except what will serve themselves. The Tory party has to bear the responsibility for this as much as Johnson. They fawned and facilitated, tolerated and looked away as long as he was polling well. Disgusting and I hope the whole party pays for this. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jan 14, 2022 8:35:48 GMT
Hi Danny However, I have to mention that you yourself just made a covid post. Yes on the Covid thread - I don't think reminding posters that there is a separate thread for covid counts as posting about covid, and commenting on partygate is different to discussions about SA/herd immunity etc. Such post distract us from the primary function of this thread which is to lampoon our ridiculous PM till he see the light and resigns. ☮ Perhaps you and Alex should seek satisfaction in a duel? Posts at dawn? It doesn’t seem fair that you guys don’t have your own thread, and in the interests of the non-partisan thing, l just took a few moments to create a thread for if you have issues with the Government or whichever party ails you. You are welcome. |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Jan 14, 2022 8:36:52 GMT
Hi Danny However, I have to mention that you yourself just made a covid post. Yes on the Covid thread - I don't think reminding posters that there is a separate thread for covid counts as posting about covid, and commenting on partygate is different to discussions about SA/herd immunity etc. Such post distract us from the primary function of this thread which is to lampoon our ridiculous PM till he see the light and resigns. ☮ Perhaps you and Alex should seek satisfaction in a duel? Posts at dawn? I agree with La Citron Danny, your constant covid posts get ignored by all except Alec, so why not give our scrolling fingers a rest and both of you take your correspondence to where it won't disrupt our ritual evisceration of the current dishonest prime minister. If you seek the oxygen that this thread provides then at least have the graciousness to mingle it with levity, football, cricket, fridge reviews, la tittle tattle Francaise, synths, and possibly polling. That last one I made up. |
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Post by hireton on Jan 14, 2022 8:37:32 GMT
Seems odd that the London press are describing the tone and contents of the Gray report. They could be a bunch of imaginative ignoramuses, or someone on her team is leaking assiduously - or both. The more that the Johnson cabal appear to leak and spin the report before it is published the less credibility the report will have. They really are amateurs |
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Post by barbara on Jan 14, 2022 8:38:47 GMT
I think the focus should not extend (as it seems it is) to the role of the police in all of this. Apparently security officers had to check and vet the garden to ensure the PM would be safe, before he ventured outside. They were not only stationed in the street outside but on the roof and elsewhere. I know it is difficult to stick your hand up and cause trouble but surely one of them had the moral courage to say, 'this is wrong'. Perhaps they did and were told to shut up and do their job.
No doubt we will find out.
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Post by moby on Jan 14, 2022 8:39:11 GMT
<button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> The birth of a new player in UK politics |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 14, 2022 8:40:29 GMT
@danny I would agree on the political significance of covid but the possibility that most of the restrictions imposed weren't necessary, something I am inclined to agree with incidentally, isn't the principal impact of covid policy on politics. It's the hypocrisy of the people imposing the restrictions failing to comply with them that's had political break through. yes to the last, but it remains very important the regulations were fundamentally wrong, and this is another disaster poised to fall upon government if their messaging fails. Its just like the brexit problem, that it will be judged by its outcomes, which will only be apparent afterwards. But when they do finally come to light they will have long term effects on political support.
Maybe in some ways real life consequences do not matter. Con got elected because they supported brexit. If it turns out to have been very damaging they will express shock and repentence and support a campaign to rejoin. So the issue reversed could yet become their means to win future elections. Its about the game of achieving power, not what is good or bad for the nation.
We have an electoral system which excludes challenger parties with real issues. UKIP should have achieved MPs of its own, Green should have MPs. Libs should have a lot more MPs. Other smaller issue parties ought to get representation which dont even exist currently because there is no practical way to achieve power. We have an absurd system of government which simply maintains the same old elite in power.
The effect of downing street parties will have disappeared by an election in a couple of years time. The effect of a government which imposed restrictions on everyone which actually were harmful not beneficial, might stick longer and it is this the government is desperate to avoid.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 8:41:01 GMT
turk@"It’s more likely at the moment that Boris will resign after the enquiry is published if and only if it’s particularly critical of him." If reports are to be believed , the criticism will be about his judgement, Gray having no brief on illegality as I understand it. I'm surprised you contemplate resignation in any event-it doesn't fit with my perception of him. So I'm anticipating further contrition after the report ,but still leaving -as he currently has-the impression that he thinks this is all a bit unfair. And Boris sets out to get those Polls back in shape by sheer force of personality. That would be some feat ! Maybe 15% Lab lead will produce those letters. 20% would surely be a wake up call ?
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