|
|
Post by davwel on Jan 11, 2022 11:29:01 GMT
So far nobody here has commented on the weak not-penetrating interview of Edward Argar on R4 Today at 8.10 - 8.20 am, by one of the lady presenters - Martha and Mishal have such similar accents I couldn`t tell which was interviewing.
It almost seemed like the Today producers wanted to protect Johnson - IMHO this is a very brief respite for him.
Questions that could have been asked were:
Who authorised you to take the line that these are allegations, rather than proven facts of a party having taken place on May 20th?
Did the PM`s private secretary authorise the party, and does he operate without the approval of Johnson on No 10 activities?
How has news of the party been hushed-up for 19 months? Have attenders and recipients of invites been ordered not to speak about the party, and if so, who ordered this? Have Johnson`s private secretaries continued in the role since May 2020?
Did any other minister attend apart from the PM?
Instead we had sob stories from people who suffered personal family tragedies last May, that really didn`t need further ventilation this morning.
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,649
|
Post by steve on Jan 11, 2022 11:29:34 GMT
Sda
The Tory party have plenty of form for knifing their beloved leaders in the back and front.
|
|
|
|
Post by hireton on Jan 11, 2022 11:34:38 GMT
@jim jam I agree with you. But I think there is another story emerging-a Civil Service whose senior members are so detached from the real world that they throw a Party to "celebrate the nice weather" when the country is locked away from a global pandemic. That we also have a PM who is ( allegedly) incapable of saying No to these people is the story in the headlines of course. And rightly so because he is accountable to us all-unlike the Mandarins in Whitehall. Ah, the Johnson as victim of bad advisors card. David Gauke nailed that one: |
|
|
|
Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Jan 11, 2022 11:38:38 GMT
I'm just trying to remember the base issues that have led to past PM's going. May - unable to get votes through Cameron - lost a referendum Brown - lost a GE Blair - had his arm twisted by Brown Major - lost a GE Thatcher - ousted by her party Callaghan - lost a GE Wilson - ? had his arm twisted by Callaghan/ got fed up Heath - lost a GE I can't see anyone on that list that went because they had a habit of lying, though some would add that epitaph to Blair. |
|
|
|
Post by tancred on Jan 11, 2022 11:42:32 GMT
I'm just trying to remember the base issues that have led to past PM's going. May - unable to get votes through Cameron - lost a referendum Brown - lost a GE Blair - had his arm twisted by Brown Major - lost a GE Thatcher - ousted by her party Callaghan - lost a GE Wilson - ? had his arm twisted by Callaghan/ got fed up Heath - lost a GE I can't see anyone on that list that went because they had a habit of lying. Well, Blair wasn't exactly honest about the Iraq War was he? But that's not why he left. Anyway, my feeling is that the party will rally round Boris because (1) I don't think anyone has the courage to challenge him and (2) Boris is Mr Brexit. Privately, many Tory MPs are already preparing for the party losing the next election and now the aim is simply damage limitation. I think that Sunak, Truss and Gove are unlikely to challenge Johnson because they would be better placed after a Tory general election loss and Johnson resigns. When is the last time a sitting PM was ousted from office by a leadership challenge? Blair resigned in 2007 under pressure from Brown, Wilson resigned due to inability to cope with the stress of the job, MacMillan resigned due to advancing age and the Profumo scandal, Eden resigned because of Suez and, ostensibly, for ill health reasons. Heath was only ousted after he had lost the election in 1974 because he refused to resign from the Tory leadership. |
|
|
|
Post by somerjohn on Jan 11, 2022 12:02:37 GMT
Neilj: Nothing will change the minds of the dyed in the wool supporters,that's always been the case. It's the ones in the middle who are willing and indeed have changed their view. This is where the next election will be won or lost
Well, we have a reasonable selection of RoC folk posting here.
As far as I'm aware, no Tory-inclined poster has proclaimed a change in his/her* VI away from Con because of recent revelations, or just general government ineptitude.
True, there has been a bit of, "we must dump Boris so I can continue voting Tory" from the TWs and others, and some wailing and gnashing of teeth from Colin over various gloomy indicators. But, unless I've missed it, no straightforward change of intended VI. If that's wrong, and there are 2019 Tory voters here who would tick another box if asked to do so today, now's the time to set me right.
Whether this apparent steadfastness of UKPR2's RoC contingent has anything to do with Steve's characterisation of Tory die-hards as "crotchety old farts living in large detached houses in Surrey", I couldn't say.
* I wrote his/her, but on reflection I think all our self-proclaimed Tories here are male. Again, an opportunity to set me right if I'm wrong.
|
|
|
|
Post by steamdrivenandy on Jan 11, 2022 12:14:05 GMT
The point is, surely, that where leaders have tended to go, apart from GE results, there has always been a substantial figure, or figures, in the background orchestrating/supporting the removal, possibly with the hope to assume the mantle. Since 2019 there appears to be nobody substantial enough to organise such a putsch, though there appear to be masses of Tory MP's willing it to happen.
It's rather like the country as a whole, with a government supported by under 35% of voters, I suspect the Tory MP support for Johnson, if pushed, would be an even lower %.
|
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,393
|
Post by neilj on Jan 11, 2022 12:25:31 GMT
tancred 'when is the last time a sitting PM was ousted from office by a leadership challenge?' Margaret Thatcher
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 12:41:26 GMT
I am off line for a while now, practise of a Beethoven piece for a concert, but will try to reply to any reasonable comment later.
Are you doing Beethoven’s third Mandolin Concerto? That’s my favourite. |
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,127
|
Post by domjg on Jan 11, 2022 12:43:50 GMT
As someone in total opposition to Johnson and (esp the current incarnation of) the Tory party you'd think I'd be crowing about the recent revelations. Instead I just feel depressed and angry that this is where we've ended up, with leaders with such tiny regard for the people of the country. Who are so incompetent and venal they don't care what they do and don't try to cover their tracks in equal measure. Who just lie as a reflex without even ensuring the lie will be able to stand.
With Johnson of late I've been reminded of my younger brother as very small boy when he kicked a football through a window. The whole family saw him do it but he insisted that it wasn't him..
I blame Corbyn for this as well because if it hadn't been for him we'd have neither Brexit nor Johnson.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 12:47:55 GMT
There is an important distinction between Civil Servants and Political Aides. Anyone employed directly by an MP from their own office budget, or employed by their Party, is not a Civil Servant, they're a Political Aide. Political Aides are almost universally partisan party members, and directly responsible to the party and a specific named MP. And it appears that the party was organised by Political Aides and apparently approved of and directly involving Johnson. So it's a problem that originated from the Conservative Party and Johnson, not the Civil Service. I think this chap is a career Civil Servant-what do you think ? www.gov.uk/government/people/martin-reynolds |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 12:52:56 GMT
I blame Corbyn for this as well because if it hadn't been for him we'd have neither Brexit nor Johnson. I blame him for everything. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 12:53:19 GMT
Ah, the Johnson as victim of bad advisors card. Nah. Johnson as victim of the can't resist a party card. |
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,127
|
Post by domjg on Jan 11, 2022 12:56:33 GMT
There is an important distinction between Civil Servants and Political Aides. Anyone employed directly by an MP from their own office budget, or employed by their Party, is not a Civil Servant, they're a Political Aide. Political Aides are almost universally partisan party members, and directly responsible to the party and a specific named MP. And it appears that the party was organised by Political Aides and apparently approved of and directly involving Johnson. So it's a problem that originated from the Conservative Party and Johnson, not the Civil Service. I think this chap is a career Civil Servant-what do you think ? www.gov.uk/government/people/martin-reynolds You're really pushing this 'it was the civil service wot done it' line. Maybe it makes you feel better but it won't wash and certainly will get zero traction in the 'real world' you're so fond of alluding to. Sorry if this sounds a bit arch but sometimes you just need to accept your guys are beyond the pale. It just sounds like squirming. |
|
|
|
Post by somerjohn on Jan 11, 2022 12:56:48 GMT
domjg: just feel depressed and angry that this is where we've ended up, with leaders with such tiny regard for the people of the country.
I think there is an unsurprising tendency amongst any privileged elite which is in power, to see the hoi polloi as a bunch of stupid sheep, easily herded. I'm not just talking about politicians, but media barons and others in positions of prominence.
And, to be fair, the fact that it's apparently taken several years for some of the UK electorate to see through Johnson, rather lends support to that interpretation.
|
|
graham
Member
Posts: 3,765
Member is Online
|
Post by graham on Jan 11, 2022 12:57:22 GMT
, I'm just trying to remember the base issues that have led to past PM's going. May - unable to get votes through Cameron - lost a referendum Brown - lost a GE Blair - had his arm twisted by Brown Major - lost a GE Thatcher - ousted by her party Callaghan - lost a GE Wilson - ? had his arm twisted by Callaghan/ got fed up Heath - lost a GE I can't see anyone on that list that went because they had a habit of lying, though some would add that epitaph to Blair. That is a myth which many people appear to have swallowed.When Wilson returned to office in March 1974 he had no intention of serving a full term. His family were aware of this and is reflected in the decision not to return to living at 10 Downing St. - but to remain at Lord North St. His memory was not quite what it was , but almost certainly that simply reflected the natural ageing process rather than ill health. After retiring in April 1976 he wrote a further volume of memoirs, chaired a Commission on the City, delivered lectures and a TV series on earlier PMs whilst continuing as MP for Huyton until 1983.In 1980 he was badly affected by the anasthetic when undergoing an operation for colon cancer. The clear signs of Dementia/Alzheimers did not really appear until circa 1985. |
|
|
|
Post by catfuzz on Jan 11, 2022 12:59:31 GMT
Neilj: Nothing will change the minds of the dyed in the wool supporters,that's always been the case. It's the ones in the middle who are willing and indeed have changed their view. This is where the next election will be won or lost Well, we have a reasonable selection of RoC folk posting here. As far as I'm aware, no Tory-inclined poster has proclaimed a change in his/her* VI away from Con because of recent revelations, or just general government ineptitude. True, there has been a bit of, "we must dump Boris so I can continue voting Tory" from the TWs and others, and some wailing and gnashing of teeth from Colin over various gloomy indicators. But, unless I've missed it, no straightforward change of intended VI. If that's wrong, and there are 2019 Tory voters here who would tick another box if asked to do so today, now's the time to set me right. Whether this apparent steadfastness of UKPR2's RoC contingent has anything to do with Steve's characterisation of Tory die-hards as "crotchety old farts living in large detached houses in Surrey", I couldn't say. * I wrote his/her, but on reflection I think all our self-proclaimed Tories here are male. Again, an opportunity to set me right if I'm wrong. Again, I think the key difference between this and other occasions would be on lost loved ones during the pandemic. Economic hiccups and bad policy can sway voters for a GE. A government that has contemptuously ignored their own rules while expecting others to follow, thus not having an opportunity to say farewell to family on their deathbeds I think would have a long-term impact on VI. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I would say those RoC (and generally all posters on UKPR) do not fall into this category, and so see this through the lens of political jockeying, rather than something with a fundamental impact on someone’s life. IMHO and all that. I know for example my reaction to this would likely be fuelled by anger had I lost someone close in these last few years, rather than resigned exasperation and incredulity. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 13:03:36 GMT
colin You're really pushing this 'it was the civil service wot done it' line. Maybe it makes you feel better but it won't wash and certainly will get zero traction in the 'real world' you're so fond of alluding to. Sorry if this sounds a bit arch but sometimes you just need to accept your guys are beyond the pale. It just sounds like squirming. I wrote this -perhaps you missed it.:- "that we also have a PM who is ( allegedly) incapable of saying No to these people is the story in the headlines of course. And rightly so because he is accountable to us all-unlike the Mandarins in Whitehall." ie Reynolds emailed the invitations. 60% of the recipients declined-some reportedly asking wtf. 40% of them turned up -forgetting the state of play in the country. Including the PM allegedly. Thats how I see it. He deserves both barrels if true, |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,649
|
Post by steve on Jan 11, 2022 13:05:35 GMT
Urgent question to the prime minister regarding lies.
Step forward the paymaster General as sacrificial spokespatsy.
Has anyone looked in the downing street fridge?
They're laughing at us!
|
|
|
|
Post by tancred on Jan 11, 2022 13:15:44 GMT
tancred 'when is the last time a sitting PM was ousted from office by a leadership challenge?' Margaret Thatcher True, I stand corrected, BUT it should be said that the challenger (Heseltine) was not the one who ended up as leader. Generally, that seems to be the case, so little incentive to challenge Boris unless the challenger has very solid support in and out of Westminster. Also, in 1990 the Tories were riding high in the polls, whereas now any challenger may be handed a poisoned chalice. |
|
|
|
Post by steamdrivenandy on Jan 11, 2022 13:16:25 GMT
Crofty, have you noticed that as well as a welcome and hopefully burgeoning, female element on the board, we seem to have garnered some of the feline persuasion. Are Rosie and Daisy OK with this? Miss Pippin just asked me if I thought they had enough lives left to outlast Johnson?
|
|
|
|
Post by moosepoll on Jan 11, 2022 13:20:44 GMT
I think the red wall is a massive problem for the Conservative party. The cost of living crisis, raise in NI contributions and soaring inflation are likely going to make many voters who lent there vote for Brexit considering returning to Labour. If London stays mainly red and the red wall returns we are in hung Parliament territory. But the SNP closing Scotland at Christmas has been vastly unpopular north of the border inroads by Labour in Scotland would be game changing. I think we wont get a GE until absolutely necessary but I do feel that some kind of attractive offer has to be found by Mr Sunek.
|
|
|
|
Post by hireton on Jan 11, 2022 13:21:49 GMT
Urgent question to the prime minister regarding lies. Step forward the paymaster General as sacrificial spokespatsy. Has anyone looked in the downing street fridge? They're laughing at us! Two telling things fron the UQ today. No other Minister has turned up to support the Paymaster General in his response to to the UQ. The front bench is empty apart from the PG and the officiating whip. I can't remember seeing that before. The Tory backbenches are very empty. The "Wait for Gray" line won't last beyond tomorrow. |
|
graham
Member
Posts: 3,765
Member is Online
|
Post by graham on Jan 11, 2022 13:23:46 GMT
tancred 'when is the last time a sitting PM was ousted from office by a leadership challenge?' Margaret Thatcher True, I stand corrected, BUT it should be said that the challenger (Heseltine) was not the one who ended up as leader. Generally, that seems to be the case, so little incentive to challenge Boris unless the challenger has very solid support in and out of Westminster. Also, in 1990 the Tories were riding high in the polls, whereas now any challenger may be handed a poisoned chalice. In 1990 the Tories were much further behind in the polls than is the case now! It was the year of the Poll Tax.The Local Election results were pretty disastrous and polls put Labour up to 20% ahead.The safe Tory seat of Mid-Staffordshire fell to Labour on a huge swing that Spring. Tory recovery only occured following Thatcher's ousting. |
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,127
|
Post by domjg on Jan 11, 2022 13:24:19 GMT
colin You're really pushing this 'it was the civil service wot done it' line. Maybe it makes you feel better but it won't wash and certainly will get zero traction in the 'real world' you're so fond of alluding to. Sorry if this sounds a bit arch but sometimes you just need to accept your guys are beyond the pale. It just sounds like squirming. I wrote this -perhaps you missed it.:- "that we also have a PM who is ( allegedly) incapable of saying No to these people is the story in the headlines of course. And rightly so because he is accountable to us all-unlike the Mandarins in Whitehall." ie Reynolds emailed the invitations. 60% of the recipients declined-some reportedly asking wtf. 40% of them turned up -forgetting the state of play in the country. Including the PM allegedly. Thats how I see it. He deserves both barrels if true, I don't think his major crime is giving in to peer pressure and going 'oh all right then'. I think he's much more of an active offender. it's not just a case of the buck stops. I just can't understand how anyone thought they could and/or should get away with this. |
|
|
|
Post by tancred on Jan 11, 2022 13:25:03 GMT
That is a myth which many people appear to have swallowed.When Wilson returned to office in March 1974 he had no intention of serving a full term. His family were aware of this and is reflected in the decision not to return to living at 10 Downing St. - but to remain at Lord North St. His memory was not quite what it was , but almost certainly that simply reflected the natural ageing process rather than ill health. After retiring in April 1976 he wrote a further volume of memoirs, chaired a Commission on the City, delivered lectures and a TV series on earlier PMs whilst continuing as MP for Huyton until 1983.In 1980 he was badly affected by the anasthetic when undergoing an operation for colon cancer. The clear signs of Dementia/Alzheimers did not really appear until circa 1985. Nah, Wilson was an alcoholic. He was only 60 when he quit - hardly senile. He could have served a full term had he wished to do so, but he was unable to cope with the job without downing half a bottle of whisky a day. I am sure that his drinking (and smoking) hastened his cancer and also dementia. |
|
|
|
Post by hireton on Jan 11, 2022 13:26:10 GMT
I think the red wall is a massive problem for the Conservative party. The cost of living crisis, raise in NI contributions and soaring inflation are likely going to make many voters who lent there vote for Brexit considering returning to Labour. If London stays mainly red and the red wall returns we are in hung Parliament territory. But the SNP closing Scotland at Christmas has been vastly unpopular north of the border inroads by Labour in Scotland would be game changing. I think we wont get a GE until absolutely necessary but I do feel that some kind of attractive offer has to be found by Mr Sunek. The Scottish Government did not "close" Scotland over Christmas. The polling evidence we have is that SNP support is unchanged or possibly increasing. Do you have any evidence that the additional restrictions which the SG introduced are "vastly unpopular"? |
|
|
|
Post by robert on Jan 11, 2022 13:27:27 GMT
Somerjohn "Well, we have a reasonable selection of RoC folk posting here." I may have missed one or two but I think there are four or five of us. Me, colin, mercian & tw. Maybe tancred, not sure. The rest are very much on the left by varying degrees. |
|
|
|
Post by tancred on Jan 11, 2022 13:28:59 GMT
True, I stand corrected, BUT it should be said that the challenger (Heseltine) was not the one who ended up as leader. Generally, that seems to be the case, so little incentive to challenge Boris unless the challenger has very solid support in and out of Westminster. Also, in 1990 the Tories were riding high in the polls, whereas now any challenger may be handed a poisoned chalice. In 1990 the Tories were much further behind in the polls than is the case now! It was the year of the Poll Tax.The Local Election results were pretty disastrous and polls put Labour up to 20% ahead.The safe Tory seat of Mid-Staffordshire fell to Labour on a huge swing that Spring. Tory recovery only occured following Thatcher's ousting. OK. But it was clear at the time that Thatcher had to go as she had been in office for 11 years. It was simply her time. Johnson isn't quite at that level yet and may never get there. I would add that Major was not replaced, despite polls being very negative for him after Black Wednesday. |
|
|
|
Post by robert on Jan 11, 2022 13:29:51 GMT
domjg"With Johnson of late I've been reminded of my younger brother as very small boy when he kicked a football through a window. The whole family saw him do it but he insisted that it wasn't him.. " He wasn't in Bristol recently was he?😉
|
|
