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Post by James E on Jan 11, 2022 9:47:15 GMT
29 Dec 2021: 'Ditching Boris Johnson as Tory leader and replacing him with Michael Gove would hand Labour an 18-point poll lead, a new survey has found.' www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/next-tory-leader-michael-gove-rishi-sunak-truss-b1983691.htmlcolin "I think there is another story emerging-a Civil Service whose senior members are so detached from the real world that they throw a Party to "celebrate the nice weather" when the country is locked away from a global pandemic. That we also have a PM who is ( allegedly) incapable of saying No to these people is the story in the headlines of course. And rightly so because he is accountable to us all-unlike the Mandarins in Whitehall." Probably cognitive bias on my part, but I imagined it was the other way round: I'd assumed that it was Johnson who 'threw a party' (or several) and the Civil Servants were not brave enough to tell him that he must not. |
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Post by tancred on Jan 11, 2022 10:00:12 GMT
I think most people are fed up with this tittle-tattle about Boris and his entourage. They know what he is like, this isn't extraordinary behaviour for someone like him.
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Post by mandolinist on Jan 11, 2022 10:10:03 GMT
I was quoting the Authorised Version of the Bible. Of course any evidence from that long ago should be treated with caution, but are you saying that the ancient Egyptians did not have slavery? Even if you are, I then point you to Athens. Should we destroy the remnants of ancient Athens because they had slavery? The point I am making is not about specific details and the relevance of particular documents, but whether there should be a principle that disapproval of certain practices in the past be a licence to destroy traces of that period. And in case anyone's forgotten this started about the Colston statue. How do the actions of the defendants in that case differ from the ISIS damage to Palmyra, except in scale? In fact, thinking further on this, you should really be outraged at the Merchant Venturers as they're the one who need accusing of rewriting history. Their insistence on naming all the endowed buildings in Bristol after Colston and then erecting a statue to him in the late 19th C has resulted in rewriting history by turning Colston from a greedy slave trader into a public benefactor and all round revered person. Perhaps getting rid of the statue will remind people of the real history he was involved in. I have tried really hard to stay out of further discussion on this, but, Barbara this is exactly the point I was trying to make in my post on the subject in the last thread. I understand that many do not know the history in detail, but there is no doubt that the Merchant Venturers have been both the long term Colston support society and the immovable object when it came to trying to add explanation to the statue. For those who do not understand how powerful this organisation is within Bristol I suggest having a quick look at Wiki. It doesn't quite do justice to the nature of the beast, but is a reasonable place to start.
I am off line for a while now, practise of a Beethoven piece for a concert, but will try to reply to any reasonable comment later.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 10:11:26 GMT
Probably cognitive bias on my part, but I imagined it was the other way round: I'd assumed that it was Johnson who 'threw a party' (or several) and the Civil Servants were not brave enough to tell him that he must not. Yep-I get that someone of your persuasion will believe that The Prime Minister told his PPS to write that email, having spotted the lovely weather, in an idle moment, through his flat window. Actually I would like to know more about the 60 staff who reportedly said/thought wtf ,and didn't go, rather than the 40 who turned up. That BJ was one of the latter, for me, is right in line with his character. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 11, 2022 10:12:58 GMT
I think most people are fed up with this tittle-tattle about Boris and his entourage. They know what he is like, this isn't extraordinary behaviour for someone like him. I wouldn't call publicising Johnsons blatant rule breaking and lies as tittle tattle, it's holding the Government to account. I also think a lot of people are interested in these matters and want the truth to come out |
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Post by kay9 on Jan 11, 2022 10:18:55 GMT
I was recently watching a programme about Drake. It made the point very clearly that he bought and sold slaves. Surely statues of him should be toppled. And should he be stripped of his Sir-hood? (The box above should contain the words: “… Colston from a greedy slave trader into a public benefactor and all round revered person. Perhaps getting rid of the statue will remind people of the real history he was involved in.“ Don’t know why they failed to appear.) |
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Post by tancred on Jan 11, 2022 10:20:52 GMT
Deregulation and the Tory right: Frost at the weekend, backed up by other extremists in the Conservative Party, again reiterated their dreams that for Brexit to work, we need to move further to a deregulated, low taxation model, in order to secure the gains Brexit gives us. On Monday, Michael Gove says he is going after the cladding companies to recover the cost of replacing dodgy cladding, and there will be new regulations on the height of buildings affected by the repair scheme, with new government money to cover the cost. No one on the Conservative right wing seems to appreciate the juxtaposition of these two diametrically opposed positions. Frost is basically spouting the same drivel that the ERG has been spouting for ages: let's get rid of all checks and balances on business, end the welfare state and make the rich even richer. |
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Post by tancred on Jan 11, 2022 10:22:12 GMT
I was recently watching a programme about Drake. It made the point very clearly that he bought and sold slaves. Surely statues of him should be toppled. And should he be stripped of his Sir-hood? And what about the Roman emperors? They traded slaves and forced many to fight fierce beasts as gladiators. |
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Post by tancred on Jan 11, 2022 10:24:32 GMT
I think most people are fed up with this tittle-tattle about Boris and his entourage. They know what he is like, this isn't extraordinary behaviour for someone like him. I wouldn't call publicising Johnsons blatant rule breaking and lies as tittle tattle, it's holding the Government to account. I also think a lot of people are interested in these matters and want the truth to come out I prefer to focus on policies. Boris is just being Boris. I think the whole nation has been aware that he is a clown for years. |
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Post by jimjam on Jan 11, 2022 10:28:49 GMT
Kay9 welcome, I think you posted occasionally on UKPR so glad to see you made over.
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Post by James E on Jan 11, 2022 10:36:25 GMT
colinFrom the BBC (09:24 today) " Dr Hannah White, deputy director of the Institute for Government, a non-partisan think tank, says it is "extremely unlikely" that Boris Johnson's principal private secretary could have invited 100 people to a Downing Street garden party "without the assent of the prime minister". Asked if she thought Johnson would have had to have agreed to the event, she tells BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I think he would have had to have done." Citing witnesses who say he attended, she says it's becoming "increasingly difficult" for the PM to claim he didn't know about this particular alleged breach of lockdown rules. White, who used to run the Committee on Standards in Public Life in the Cabinet Office, says it is "pretty surprising" the garden drinks happened at all and "even more surprising" that Martin Reynolds decided to put it on record via email." www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-59948846
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Post by tancred on Jan 11, 2022 10:36:40 GMT
I was quoting the Authorised Version of the Bible. Of course any evidence from that long ago should be treated with caution, but are you saying that the ancient Egyptians did not have slavery? Even if you are, I then point you to Athens. Should we destroy the remnants of ancient Athens because they had slavery? The point I am making is not about specific details and the relevance of particular documents, but whether there should be a principle that disapproval of certain practices in the past be a licence to destroy traces of that period. And in case anyone's forgotten this started about the Colston statue. How do the actions of the defendants in that case differ from the ISIS damage to Palmyra, except in scale? The statue to Colston was only erected in the late 19th century, centuries after he died and long after slavery was seen for the evil it is. It's a bit like someone building a Roman Theme Park complete with slaves and people getting in a froth because someone toppled a pillar at the fake 'Parthenon' Sorry got my Greeks and Romans confused - For Parthenon read 'Colosseum'In the late 19th century there was a virtual slavery in Britain! People were forced to go into the workhouse simply to have enough money to survive, and even there many did not survive. |
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Post by jayblanc on Jan 11, 2022 10:38:12 GMT
Probably cognitive bias on my part, but I imagined it was the other way round: I'd assumed that it was Johnson who 'threw a party' (or several) and the Civil Servants were not brave enough to tell him that he must not. There is an important distinction between Civil Servants and Political Aides. Anyone employed directly by an MP from their own office budget, or employed by their Party, is not a Civil Servant, they're a Political Aide. Political Aides are almost universally partisan party members, and directly responsible to the party and a specific named MP. And it appears that the party was organised by Political Aides and apparently approved of and directly involving Johnson. So it's a problem that originated from the Conservative Party and Johnson, not the Civil Service. |
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Post by eotw on Jan 11, 2022 10:41:35 GMT
Thread on twitter from Chris Curtis of Opinium
My favourite bit:
Secondly, hardly anybody believes what Boris Johnson has to say on the matter. In fact, more people think the moon landings were faked than think the Prime Minister is telling the truth
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 11, 2022 10:45:24 GMT
"It's my party and I'll lie if I want to"
Of course Spaffer doesn't have to wait for an enquiry on the off chance that the promised gift of a baronancy or similar might get him off.
He could try telling the truth.
But a liars got to lie!
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 11, 2022 10:47:49 GMT
Thread on twitter from Chris Curtis of Opinium My favourite bit: Secondly, hardly anybody believes what Boris Johnson has to say on the matter. In fact, more people think the moon landings were faked than think the Prime Minister is telling the truthCheers for posting, does give the lie to the idea that these stories have had no effect on the public's view of Johnson and more importantly their voting intention |
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 11, 2022 10:48:05 GMT
eotw Pity the 20% of Tory supporters who still think Johnson is telling the truth. They are beyond redemption.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 11, 2022 10:51:21 GMT
I wouldn't call publicising Johnsons blatant rule breaking and lies as tittle tattle, it's holding the Government to account. I also think a lot of people are interested in these matters and want the truth to come out I prefer to focus on policies. Boris is just being Boris. I think the whole nation has been aware that he is a clown for years. Opinion polls strongly suggest this has had a big effect on voting intention. Yes, lots of people knew Johnson was a liar. The numbers have now been increased. I also think integrity and honesty are big issues in the public perception of our leaders |
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 11, 2022 10:52:13 GMT
EdwardDavey
Yet again it's one rule for @borisjohnson and another rule for the rest of us. This time a massive garden party at his place while people were dying alone. FFS twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitic…
Not often a senior politician tweets ffs, entirely justifiable of course
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Post by jayblanc on Jan 11, 2022 10:53:39 GMT
Will the recent small gains for the Tories in the polls "unwind" now partygate has reared its head again? Logic would suggest so if the drift from Tory to DK we saw in December was as a result of the first batch of revelations about regulation busting parties. I mean, if that was enough to change your voting intention, which must be of the flakier type anyway, then, I suppose, here we go again. If it doesn't have that reverse unwind effect then, at the very least, I guess it will solidify the ex Tory voters who have decamped to other partys (political ones, not bring a bottle ones that is.) I suspect the recent gains are people pre-emptively pricing in Boris being shoved, and a Generic New Competent Conservative Leader replacing him. So it might not drag back down as much as the original scandal did. It will add on pressure, and if Boris does cling on as PM and leader of the Conservatives, then eventually that's going to become a major drag on the Conservative Party for failing to do something about him. The longer he clings on, the bigger the potential for a critical collapse in the numbers. Or worse, Defections from NE Seats that suddenly decide the only path to re-election is to stand as an #InsertPartyHere#. Additionally, failure to find a Competent Conservative Leader would be a problem. |
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Post by jimjam on Jan 11, 2022 10:59:31 GMT
Jay - yes a recent set of polls (apologies cant recall details) had a Lab - Can lead which widened when choice was Johnson led Cons v Starmer led Lab.
Suggests that 2-3% of the net Con VI were saying that they expect to be voting Tory as they expect Johnson gone, other wise they won't be.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 11:02:07 GMT
I prefer to focus on policies. Boris is just being Boris. I think the whole nation has been aware that he is a clown for years. Opinion polls strongly suggest this has had a big effect on voting intention. Yes, lots of people knew Johnson was a liar. The numbers have now been increased. I also think integrity and honesty are big issues in the public perception of our leaders I agree. Also people need excuses for changing from an earlier opinion and this one provides an excellent one (plus that it is part of a series). |
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Post by leftieliberal on Jan 11, 2022 11:03:44 GMT
@danny It isn't his garden it's crown property, number 10 is primarily an office building. Spaffer and his girlfriend at the time live free of charge in the flat at number 11 downing street.
I believe it was Maggie Thatcher who suggested to Tony Blair that he take the No 11 flat, and leave the No 10 flat to Gordon Brown, because the flat at No 11 was more suitable for a family. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Jan 11, 2022 11:04:14 GMT
kay9
Good to see you back
"I was recently watching a programme about Drake. It made the point very clearly that he bought and sold slaves.
Surely statues of him should be toppled. And should he be stripped of his Sir-hood?"
If every statue of someone with a moral flaw were toppled, there would be none left! I'm against the application of universal moral outrage to such matters, else statues and monuments to Burns would have to go, as he was prepared to accept a position in Jamaica as "a poor Negro driver". The quality of his poetry (which did not stem from profiting from chattel slavery) is what we celebrate.
Drake's position is more interesting, in that he not only profited from slavery and piracy, but is a hero in English national mythology precisely because he played a key role in establishing the English Empire, merely slaughtering Irish and Spanish opponents of English rule.
I remain of the opinion that the flawed history embodied in state or empire creation myths (a deliberate strategy) need to be debunked by appropriate plaques which better explain their role - those of little significance, can be quietly removed to a museum somewhere.
ADDITIONALLY : The hagiographic treatment of Wallace and Bruce needs to be balanced too. No point in complaining about the massacre of Berwick, and staying silent on the Barns o' Ayr and the harrying of Buchan.
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Post by tancred on Jan 11, 2022 11:04:26 GMT
Opinion polls strongly suggest this has had a big effect on voting intention. Yes, lots of people knew Johnson was a liar. The numbers have now been increased. I also think integrity and honesty are big issues in the public perception of our leaders. Well, forgive me for being cynical, but I reckon that most Tory voters would happily vote for Satan himself if it meant seeing Brexit through. This latest scandal will make the anti-Tory camp angrier than ever, but I doubt it will shift the crotchety old farts living in large detached houses in Surrey. Many of them think that he is much too moderate, if anything. If Boris falls, we could end up with a real b*stard/b*tch that will make Boris seem like St Francis of Assisi. Just look at Frost - he is reflecting the views of the typical 'grass root' conservative supporter. In summary, better the devil you know. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 11, 2022 11:11:05 GMT
Opinion polls strongly suggest this has had a big effect on voting intention. Yes, lots of people knew Johnson was a liar. The numbers have now been increased. I also think integrity and honesty are big issues in the public perception of our leaders. Well, forgive me for being cynical, but I reckon that most Tory voters would happily vote for Satan himself if it meant seeing Brexit through. This latest scandal will make the anti-Tory camp angrier than ever, but I doubt it will shift the crotchety old farts living in large detached houses in Surrey. Many of them think that he is much too moderate, if anything. If Boris falls, we could end up with a real b*stard/b*tch that will make Boris seem like St Francis of Assisi. Just look at Frost - he is reflecting the views of the typical 'grass root' conservative supporter. In summary, better the devil you know. Nothing will change the minds of the dyed in the wool supporters,that's always been the case. It's the ones in the middle who are willing and indeed have changed their view. This is where the next election will be won or lost |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 11, 2022 11:11:51 GMT
Shades of Owen Patterson
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Jan 11, 2022 11:18:16 GMT
I'm just trying to remember the base issues that have led to past PM's going.
May - unable to get votes through
Cameron - lost a referendum
Brown - lost a GE
Blair - had his arm twisted by Brown
Major - lost a GE
Thatcher - ousted by her party
Callaghan - lost a GE
Wilson - ? had his arm twisted by Callaghan/ got fed up
Heath - lost a GE
I can't see anyone on that list that went because they had a habit of lying, though some would add that epitaph to Blair.
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Post by ladyvalerie on Jan 11, 2022 11:23:55 GMT
There must be some heavy drinkers in Downing St.
A drink after work on Friday is one thing but parties every evening ??
I think this is a bit more than a “gaffe”
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Jan 11, 2022 11:26:50 GMT
Will the Con party be able to recover, no matter who the leader is, if they continue with Johnson? It seems that every day matters get worse and more voters will become disaffected. Surely enough is enough?
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