Harris V Trump - The US Election - The Results

[mercian]

moby
I understand that this is a difficult situation for that individual, but as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong) individual states decide the rules under which abortion is allowed or not by democratic means.
Surely individuals shouldn't be able to decide which laws they choose to obey?

[eor]

Nov 12, 2024 13:40:16 GMT graham said:

Justin Welby seems to be in serious trouble regarding failure to deal with abuse allegations committed by John Smyth at Christian summer camps related to Winchester College in the 1970s and 1980s.Difficult to see him surviving .
I do though find it a little difficult to understand why 17 /18 year olds - sometimes older - felt unable to report the guy themselves to the police and other authorities at the time or shortly after the events described.

Even setting aside the tremendous psychological pressure on young people of faith when told by respected elders that their suffering is deemed necessary by their god, there is the more practical consideration that the anonymity afforded to victims by the legal process is often a pure fiction amongst young people in any scandal big enough to be newsworthy.

Once the bombshell lands that community figure X is accused of being a paedophile via specific camps or clubs or even just through the institution they worked at, it's then immediately obvious who the potential victims might be; those identified who were lucky enough to be unscathed can just laugh that off but those who suffered harm then have an immediate choice of persistently lying to their friends, family members, nosey acquaintances and all the rest, or having what happened to them become a matter of local public record, prurience and mockery long before anything gets to court. 

So it's no surprise at all to me that the overwhelming majority of people who were abused in this way chose to silently walk away. And why I think Archbishop Welby used exactly the right word when he spoke of his shame at failing to do enough to properly support those few who were brave enough to speak out despite all the pressures and potential consequences.

[moby]

Fox news host Pete Hesgeth is the new Sec. Of State for Defence.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=6SA2TmZxblU
If confirmed by the Senate, he would inherit the top job during a series of global crises — ranging from Russia’s war in Ukraine and the ongoing attacks in the Middle East by Iranian proxies to the push for a cease-fire between Israel, Hamas and Hezbollah and escalating worries about the growing alliance between Russia and North Korea.

Next up I'm expecting Alex Jones to be named his new Press Sec.

[moby]

Nov 13, 2024 1:24:34 GMT mercian said:

moby
I understand that this is a difficult situation for that individual, but as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong) individual states decide the rules under which abortion is allowed or not by democratic means.
Surely individuals shouldn't be able to decide which laws they choose to obey?

Yes Trump decided to pass the decision to the states. I'm highlighting the consequences of that for womens rights. The result of Trumps decision means a woman living in Kentucky has to travel to another state to get the healthcare she needs. Such patients may experience delayed care, which can lead to worse medical conditions and higher rates of complications and deaths. Marginalized groups are particularly affected because they may not have the resources to fund transportation or child care to travel.

[Danny]

Nov 13, 2024 1:24:34 GMT mercian said:

moby
I understand that this is a difficult situation for that individual, but as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong) individual states decide the rules under which abortion is allowed or not by democratic means.
Surely individuals shouldn't be able to decide which laws they choose to obey?

Obviously individuals, en-mass, always have the final say on which laws to obey. In this case though, it looks like a case to recreate the Roe v Wade decision using the state supreme court and constitution, so merely enforcing the existing law.

[steve]

mercian
Homan's" solution" to the issue of deporting undocumented members of families where some members are citizens and others not, there are millions of such cases in the U.S.living peacefully and paying taxes " families can be deported together".

A real humanitarian.

You do know that " fox news" to avoid yet another fine offered as a defence in court that it isn't a news channel just " entertainment ".

[Danny]

Nov 13, 2024 1:28:42 GMT eor said:

Nov 12, 2024 13:40:16 GMT graham said:

Justin Welby seems to be in serious trouble regarding failure to deal with abuse allegations committed by John Smyth at Christian summer camps related to Winchester College in the 1970s and 1980s.Difficult to see him surviving .
I do though find it a little difficult to understand why 17 /18 year olds - sometimes older - felt unable to report the guy themselves to the police and other authorities at the time or shortly after the events described.

Even setting aside the tremendous psychological pressure on young people of faith when told by respected elders that their suffering is deemed necessary by their god, there is the more practical consideration that the anonymity afforded to victims by the legal process is often a pure fiction amongst young people in any scandal big enough to be newsworthy.

Once the bombshell lands that community figure X is accused of being a paedophile via specific camps or clubs or even just through the institution they worked at, it's then immediately obvious who the potential victims might be; those identified who were lucky enough to be unscathed can just laugh that off but those who suffered harm then have an immediate choice of persistently lying to their friends, family members, nosey acquaintances and all the rest, or having what happened to them become a matter of local public record, prurience and mockery long before anything gets to court. 

So it's no surprise at all to me that the overwhelming majority of people who were abused in this way chose to silently walk away. And why I think Archbishop Welby used exactly the right word when he spoke of his shame at failing to do enough to properly support those few who were brave enough to speak out despite all the pressures and potential consequences.

We had a debate recently about the problem that under age people in the UK are having sex and swapping nude pictures of themselves, and that this is deemed a serious crime. These people are told by authorities this is a serious crime they are committing. Obviously they will not report themselves and admit to crimes they have themselves committed. I dont know to what extent this applies in this case, but it probably does. I recall there was a similar issue with the midlands grooming case amongst minority racial groups. It was said the police dared not intervene because it might be seen as racial discrimination, but they also threatened to prosecute, indeed tried to prosecute, some of those who had become victims of this abuse on the grounds they had assisted or acted voluntarily.

You cannot trust police where the law says you yourself have committed a crime. Thats how laws purporting to help victims actually enable abuse.

[steve]

mercian
Compliance with this particular abortion ban law in christofascist controlled states has already resulted in the death of both mother and foetus.

The concept of having to comply with a law when The rapist lunatic criminal is president elect is risible.

[Danny]

PO back in the news, this time because its lossmaking.

Well, obviously it is. Governments chose to introduce competition but at the same time place limitations on the rump of the originl PO services. Its new owners have tried to get round those restrictions by separating out the profitable from the loss making services. Its evident there are now too many competing delivery services in the UK, and the rump service Royal mail was hobbled by requiring it to charge the same price for deliveries all over the Uk. The owners then separated out the mail service from the parcels service, leaving the government stuck with PO operating the actual shops, but also leaving the mail service unprofitable. The original post office cross subsidised its services because it was one united company, plus did not face competition working on easier conditions.

So logically, either we allow the post office to close completely. No more PO anywhere, with their often 'last resort' service as a physical bank. Do we need to retain them for that reason, or should legal conditions be placed upon commercial banks forcing them to retain physical branches? Should the original GPO be reconstructed so as to recreate a profitable business? Should all delivery services within the Uk be required to charge the same for deliveries to all destinations within the UK? Do we need to reconstitute the PO as a national bank competing with the private sector?

[Danny]

Nov 13, 2024 6:56:52 GMT steve said:

mercian
Homan's" solution" to the issue of deporting undocumented members of families where some members are citizens and others not, there are millions of such cases in the U.S.living peacefully and paying taxes " families can be deported together".

A real humanitarian.

You do know that " fox news" to avoid yet another fine offered as a defence in court that it isn't a news channel just " entertainment ".

Would the same apply to the BBC?

[Danny]

Elon Musk announces his plans for the new presidency, that he intends to dismantle the US federal government.

Russia couldn't have asked for more.

Wouldnt it be funny if a republican congress ended up impeaching the new president?

[hireton]

Nov 13, 2024 1:39:10 GMT moby said:

Nov 13, 2024 1:24:34 GMT mercian said:

moby
I understand that this is a difficult situation for that individual, but as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong) individual states decide the rules under which abortion is allowed or not by democratic means.
Surely individuals shouldn't be able to decide which laws they choose to obey?

Yes Trump decided to pass the decision to the states. I'm highlighting the consequences of that for womens rights. The result of Trumps decision means a woman living in Kentucky has to travel to another state to get the healthcare she needs. Such patients may experience delayed care, which can lead to worse medical conditions and higher rates of complications and deaths. Marginalized groups are particularly affected because they may not have the resources to fund transportation or child care to travel.

And it ignores the need for urgent treatment in a crisis and the chilling effect abortion bans have on medical staff. Women are dying as a result:

www.propublica.org/article/josseli-barnica-death-miscarriage-texas-abortion-ban

[Danny]

Nov 13, 2024 7:56:29 GMT hireton said:

And it ignores the need for urgent treatment in a crisis and the chilling effect abortion bans have on medical staff. Women are dying as a result:

www.propublica.org/article/josseli-barnica-death-miscarriage-texas-abortion-ban

Surely, you have to consider that in light of the US chosen private sector medical system, where people die because they cannot afford care all the time.

[steve]

Hireton

Residents of Kentucky are in the unusual position of not being completely surrounded by other christofascist states.

They can travel to Ohio assuming they are travelling from Louisville to Columbus it's a distance of around 220 miles further than from London to Leeds which aren't regarded exactly as neighbours.

In other christofascist dominated states the travel distance routinely exceeds that between London and Edinburgh in some instances London and Madrid.

[pete]

Nov 12, 2024 8:58:44 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Nov 12, 2024 5:51:52 GMT moby said:

Yep what we need is more balanced reporting towards people who are in denial about climate science and think that injecting bleach may combat COVID. Drill baby drill! Talking of people being in denial. .....

Yes that’s right Moby, balanced reporting. Where you don’t just point out denial on one side, but on the other too. Where you might point out denial over immigration, which has quite caught out the Democrats.

Of course, to some activists, the idea of balanced reporting is anathema, they can’t bear it. They imagine them and their cause to so noble that it shouldn’t possibly be subject to any scrutiny - only the other side gets that.

Democrats agreed a deal on immigration Trump stopped this deal.
edition.cnn.com/2024/01/25/politics/gop-senators-angry-trump-immigration-deal/index.html
I'm not getting this look at both sides. You could give examples, please? Here the press is on Starmer everyday, and lies. You only need to look at WFA as the way they go about it they never mention its targeted (i'd argue wrongly and it should be tapered) all they seem to go on about is all the oldies are going to die. But I read (can't remember where) that for every old aged person struggling 3 kids are. The right-wing press never mention the Tories part in pensions being so low, 32 of 45 years in charge.
even that Island (Chagos or whatever) its not mentioned that it all started under the previous Tory govenment.
Regarding Climate change, does the world have time to wait 50 years until somebody comes along and says "er, we've cocked up our modelling here?"

[pete]

Nov 12, 2024 7:53:03 GMT alec said:

moby - "No ones rights were at risk if they voted for Harris though. However Trump is claiming he plans to deport millions of people and will quite happily separate families in doing so."

That's the point though. These people don't have rights to risk, if they are legally able to be deported. That's what the left doesn't appear to understand. By definition, they are there illegally, and that's why so many legal migrants in the US, who did things by the book, are seriously hacked off about uncontrolled immigration. It's why Trump won. No amount of bleating about the rights of people who have trampled on the rights of everyone else alters these fundamental facts, and the left's failure to grasp this, along with the tendency to claim everyone who disagrees with them is one step away from Hitler, is why they are getting kicked back at the polls.

I struggle to understand why the mass movement of low cost labour in the form of high levels of immigration from poor to rich countries is a left wing obsession. It hurts low paid workers in the host country, harms the poorer economies in the donor countries, and provides excellent benefits for middle class and wealthy types who have access to a ready pool of low cost, compliant labour.

AOC talks about immigration with relevant facts about undocumented. immigrants.
She also talks about the left and right.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW-dgYBYSHY

[neilj]

Talking about the WFA, I'm currently on holiday in the Marina Rubicon area in Playa Blanca, Lanzarote
It's very nice, but we were talking to a retired couple who own a holiday villa here, who were vociferous in complaining about Starmer and the taking away of their WFA

I really tried to summon up some sympathy for their desperate state...
Just need to meet a farmer next and I will be in floods of tears

[steve]

neilj
Putting aside the winter fuel allowanceissue the couple of course could avoid the horrendous UK home energy costs ( around four times that in spain) for the entirety of the winter by staying in Spain tend of thousands of retirees did, but national shoot yourself in the foot day put paid to that because of the 90/180 rule!

What's the betting they voted leave as well.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Nov 13, 2024 8:08:16 GMT pete said:

Nov 12, 2024 8:58:44 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Yes that’s right Moby, balanced reporting. Where you don’t just point out denial on one side, but on the other too. Where you might point out denial over immigration, which has quite caught out the Democrats.

Of course, to some activists, the idea of balanced reporting is anathema, they can’t bear it. They imagine them and their cause to so noble that it shouldn’t possibly be subject to any scrutiny - only the other side gets that.

Democrats agreed a deal on immigration Trump stopped this deal.
edition.cnn.com/2024/01/25/politics/gop-senators-angry-trump-immigration-deal/index.html
I'm not getting this look at both sides. You could give examples, please?

Yes, that’s my point Pete. The media do not tend to look at both sides. They tend to pick a side. That’s why it’s handy to look at different media and try and assemble it for ourselves. Which at times we kinda do, though it can be a bit patchy, but then no one said it would be easy…

Nov 13, 2024 8:08:16 GMT pete said:

Nov 12, 2024 8:58:44 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Yes that’s right Moby, balanced reporting. Where you don’t just point out denial on one side, but on the other too. Where you might point out denial over immigration, which has quite caught out the Democrats.

Of course, to some activists, the idea of balanced reporting is anathema, they can’t bear it. They imagine them and their cause to so noble that it shouldn’t possibly be subject to any scrutiny - only the other side gets that.

Here the press is on Starmer everyday, and lies. You only need to look at WFA as the way they go about it they never mention its targeted (i'd argue wrongly and it should be tapered) all they seem to go on about is all the oldies are going to die. But I read (can't remember where) that for every old aged person struggling 3 kids are. The right-wing press never mention the Tories part in pensions being so low, 32 of 45 years in charge.

well yes, the party in power tends to get the most scrutiny, and indeed the most flak, because they are the ones doing stuff, making changes. Before, when the Tories were in power, they got the most scrutiny. Sometimes people can find it hard to adjust, when they have been used to kicking the other side day in day out, but now that well has run a lot dryer, and they have to defend their party rather than attack the other party. This is why the US election and Trump have suddenly taken on a much greater significance than when Trump was in power before, when Tories were still in power, and Brexit was all the rage etc.

And yes, the right wing press may not mention the Tories’ part in many bad things. One doesn’t read the right-wing press to get a balanced view! As I elaborated in my reply to mark61 on the matter, I read the right-wing press for several reasons. One, is to see how right-wing people think, right or wrong. Not just the journalists, but the people posting in the comments. Secondly, to see how the media operate. Right-wing media tend to be more subscription-based, and that can change how they do articles. I used to teach media so that’s of interest to me.

And the third reason, is because the right-wing media do have a few useful aspects that you will not tend to get elsewhere. The overall analysis may not be very good, but they may have some useful bits. Actually there is another reason I didn’t mention: that people like Starmer and Streeting, and Gordon Brown will also write in the Telegraph. One of the Telegraph economists, is more of a left-winger himself, in fact, more left-wing than most of the Guardian economists. He does interesting stuff that elaborates more than what you usually see in the Guardian.

Similarly, the Guardian can be more right-wing than you might think. They aren’t that left-wing of a paper. They are a liberal paper, and they used to be for austerity, remember? This is a problem in the media, that you get different forms of liberalism really. Neoliberalism in the Telegraph, and while The Guardian is a bit more Keynesian-liberal these days, a decade ago it was a bit more pro-austerity. You don’t get more traditional left-wing socialist arguments in the mainstream press very much.

And when you get a left-wing politician leading like Corbyn, both the Guardian and the Independent attacked him relentlessly. So you have to look outside the mainstream media, to get those sorts of views. I explained a lot of all this in my reply to Mark though. 

[jib]

Nov 12, 2024 22:41:38 GMT domjg said:

jib Steve's only taking the man at his word.

In other observations your long enduring claims that you're not completely at home with right wing populism despite clear indications to the contrary have now worn so thin as to be hardly worth continuing the charade no?

Punching low as usual.
I don't support the man, and certainly wouldn't have voted for him if I were over there.

Nevertheless, many of the Democrats mistakes that have led to this situation are entirely of their own making. Certainly not a Christofascist conspiracy, just vanity from people who should have acted in the interest of their beliefs.

I'm afraid there is only a predictable situation now for the UK, and that is to kow tow. Whether we were in the EU or not. At least Starmer will be able to make a rational case to continue the trans Atlantic security arrangements that so many on here would gleefully squander.

[steve]

"I'm afraid there is only situation now for the UK, and that is to kow tow. Whether we were in the EU or not"

Is that one of those Brexit benefits trying to pretend that a trading block with a comparable GDP to the U.S. ( more if we'd still been members) isn't in a better position than brexity no mates.

Of course it is it's blindingly obvious other than for those who don't choose to see.

[jib]

Nov 13, 2024 8:27:37 GMT steve said:

neilj
Putting aside the winter fuel allowanceissue the couple of course could avoid the horrendous UK home energy costs ( around four times that in spain) for the entirety of the winter by staying in Spain tend of thousands of retirees did, but national shoot yourself in the foot day put paid to that because of the 90/180 rule!

What's the betting they voted leave as well.

"I'm a democrat" - until it doesn't go my way!

Live with it. It's a done deal.

[steve]

I'm just waiting for the rapist President to instigate trade sanctions against Mexico and Canada in a breach of the trade agreement he instigated in his first term.

Brilliant idea not as if Mexico is the us's second largest trading partner in the world the first being Canada.


Brexity no mates is seventh four places below the EU as an area and Germany as an individual trading partner.

[colin]

"The top five purchasers of U.S. goods exports in 2022 were: Canada ($356.5 billion), Mexico ($324.3 billion), China ($150.4 billion), Japan ($80.2 billion), and the United Kingdom ($76.2 billion).

The United States is the largest services importer in the world. In 2022, U.S. imports of services were $680.3 billion, up 23.7 percent ($130.3 billion) from 2021. U.S. imports of services account for 17.2 percent of overall U.S. imports in 2022. The United Kingdom was the largest supplier of services, accounting for 10.4 percent of total U.S. service imports in 2022. The top five suppliers of U.S. services imports in 2022 were: the United Kingdom ($70.8 billion), Germany ($42.0 billion), Canada ($40.6 billion), Japan ($38.5 billion), and Mexico ($37.3 billion)."

Office of the United States Trade Representative

[Danny]

Nov 13, 2024 8:28:33 GMT jib said:

I'm afraid there is only a predictable situation now for the UK, and that is to kow tow.

You mean kow tow to the EU, of course? No choice, really.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Nov 13, 2024 8:08:16 GMT pete said:

Nov 12, 2024 8:58:44 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Yes that’s right Moby, balanced reporting. Where you don’t just point out denial on one side, but on the other too. Where you might point out denial over immigration, which has quite caught out the Democrats.

Of course, to some activists, the idea of balanced reporting is anathema, they can’t bear it. They imagine them and their cause to so noble that it shouldn’t possibly be subject to any scrutiny - only the other side gets that.

Regarding Climate change, does the world have time to wait 50 years until somebody comes along and says "er, we've cocked up our modelling here?"

Yes, again, you don’t appear to have read what I wrote on the matter. As I made clear to PJ, I thought we should continue to act on climate change. Not just to be on the safe side, but also because it could be useful to learn more about how to manipulate climate anyway, and because it’s a good idea to stop using fossil fuels for additional reasons e.g. To stop wasting a resource (though it’s also an idea to stop putting all these plastics into the environment)

All I was saying, is that it’s a good idea to be prepared both ways. To also consider the possibility where a different thing happens to the climate than we were expecting. Don’t forget, that this has happened before. In the early 60s, people worried that we were going to have more cold weather. This is supposedly because the pollution in the air was reflecting the sunlight and having a cooling effect. 

But the reduction in pollution reduced the cooling effect, and then the increase in carbon dioxide gradually meant warming took over. But it was a while before we noticed the impact of the build up of carbon dioxide. There could be other things we are not noticing…

[Danny]

Nov 13, 2024 9:00:15 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

But the reduction in pollution reduced the cooling effect, and then the increase in carbon dioxide gradually meant warming took over. But it was a while before we noticed the impact of the build up of carbon dioxide. There could be other things we are not noticing…

Obviously as our ability to measure things accurately has increased, so we can be certain eg average temperature is changing. Humans started changing the climate millenia ago, exatly when this started to have what would now be measurable effects is hard to say. But for example, the mediterranean used to have hugely more vegetation cover before we chopped down all the trees and induced local climate changes if not global ones. My prediction is that over the next 5 years world temperature will stabilise or maybe even dip, because of the sunspot cycle, before we get to another wave of excited headlines in 7-11 years time as the next sunspot cyle temperture peak reinforces the slow rising trend.

But at the momenet no one seems to be mentioning sunspots and why they are likely the cause of the current record temperatures.

[steve]

With such a large military the post of us secretary  of defence is normally a retired senior officer the current Secretary Lloyd Austin was a 40year veteran of the U.S. Army retiring as a four star general finishing as commander in chief of the crucial central command.

The rapist's pick

Pete Hegseth he's a 43 year old fox news host and part time junior national guard officer he does have combat deployment as platoon commander in Iran and as a training officer in Kabul in 2012.He currently holds the rank of major in the Minnesota national guard.

But Hesgeth hasn't entirely wasted his time he's been married three times and has seven children has spread vile allegations about the democrats has enriched his family from charitable institutions and is an all round climate change denying rooting tooting maga loon.

Great choice.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Nov 13, 2024 9:10:31 GMT Danny said:

Nov 13, 2024 9:00:15 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

But the reduction in pollution reduced the cooling effect, and then the increase in carbon dioxide gradually meant warming took over. But it was a while before we noticed the impact of the build up of carbon dioxide. There could be other things we are not noticing…

Obviously as our ability to measure things accurately has increased, so we can be certain eg average temperature is changing. Humans started changing the climate millenia ago, exatly when this started to have what would now be measurable effects is hard to say. But for example, the mediterranean used to have hugely more vegetation cover before we chopped down all the trees and induced local climate changes if not global ones. My prediction is that over the next 5 years world temperature will stabilise or maybe even dip, because of the sunspot cycle, before we get to another wave of excited headlines in 7-11 years time as the next sunspot cyle temperture peak reinforces the slow rising trend.

But at the momenet no one seems to be mentioning sunspots and why they are likely the cause of the current record temperatures.

Indeed we get better at measuring, but there may be some subtle thing we are not thinking to measure, that might have unexpected effects. Or we measure everything salient accurately, but there is some strange interaction or feedback effect we are not yet aware of and maybe hasn’t even happened yet that can have significant effects. 

We now know that it’s possible that the Gulf stream may stop for example. But there could be other things we haven’t spotted yet…

indeed, solar activity is a factor… some argue that we are on the verge of drifting into another ice age? ❄️☃️

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Nov 13, 2024 8:20:24 GMT neilj said:

Talking about the WFA, I'm currently on holiday in the Marina Rubicon area in Playa Blanca, Lanzarote
It's very nice, but we were talking to a retired couple who own a holiday villa here, who were vociferous in complaining about Starmer and the taking away of their WFA

I really tried to summon up some sympathy for their desperate state...
Just need to meet a farmer next and I will be in floods of tears

Yes but when they have come for the boomers and the farmers and small business people and retail and people in hospitality, and the musicians, who will then have fewer places to gig etc., and we do nothing, then when eventually they come for the online posters, even the public sector ones, there will be no one left to defend us…?