Harris V Trump - The US Election - The Results

[lefthanging]

Nov 13, 2024 9:00:15 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Nov 13, 2024 8:08:16 GMT pete said:

But the reduction in pollution reduced the cooling effect, and then the increase in carbon dioxide gradually meant warming took over. 

Could you detail what the others forms of pollution that come with a cooling effect please? And if we polluted more in these ways, how much of the current CO2-caused warming could it counteract?

[leftieliberal]

Nov 13, 2024 9:35:02 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Nov 13, 2024 9:10:31 GMT Danny said:

We now know that it’s possible that the Gulf stream may stop for example. But there could be other things we haven’t spotted yet…

It's only recently been discovered that the top 2 mm of the sea surface is more effective in absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere, because it is slightly cooler than the rest of the near surface water.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Nov 13, 2024 9:45:12 GMT lefthanging said:

Nov 13, 2024 9:00:15 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

But the reduction in pollution reduced the cooling effect, and then the increase in carbon dioxide gradually meant warming took over. 

Could you detail what the others forms of pollution that come with a cooling effect please? And if we polluted more in these ways, how much of the current CO2-caused warming could it counteract?

Well people are talking about that sort of thing, about ways to reflect sunlight to counter warming. IIRC I think one suggested approach is to increase the water vapour to reflect sunlight? But I don’t know who has the detail on it. 

There can be untoward effects of course. Here’s an MIT article on the matter…

news.mit.edu/2020/reflecting-sunlight-cool-planet-storm-0602

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Nov 13, 2024 9:46:27 GMT leftieliberal said:

Nov 13, 2024 9:35:02 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

We now know that it’s possible that the Gulf stream may stop for example. But there could be other things we haven’t spotted yet…

It's only recently been discovered that the top 2 mm of the sea surface is more effective in absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere, because it is slightly cooler than the rest of the near surface water.

That’s interesting. Is it cooler because of evaporative effects? leftieliberal might be more up on it than me: he drew attention to the importance of the oceans as a CO2 sink a while ago when we were considering methods of carbon capture

[leftieliberal]

Nov 13, 2024 9:45:12 GMT lefthanging said:

Nov 13, 2024 9:00:15 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

But the reduction in pollution reduced the cooling effect, and then the increase in carbon dioxide gradually meant warming took over. 

Could you detail what the others forms of pollution that come with a cooling effect please? And if we polluted more in these ways, how much of the current CO2-caused warming could it counteract?

c-a-r-f-r-e-w is referring to the well-known effect of aerosol oxides of sulphur in the upper atmosphere that was a result of coal-burning. The main natural source of these are volcanic eruptions. The other obvious one is contrails from jet aircraft at cruising altitudes; there was a measurable increase in solar irradiation at ground level following 9/11 when all flights were cancelled for several days.

Some people have suggested injecting aerosols into the stratosphere as a means of geo-engineering, but most think it is too dangerous as it is not easily reversible.

[Danny]

Interesting documentary on R4 about people taking DNA tests. In this case someone discovered they had an unknown brother, only it transpired they actually had a complete related family which was not the one they believed was their birth family....because babies had been swapped in a hospital.

Roll on a bit and they contacted the NHS about this, who did their own tests and confirmed what had happened, accepted liability. But then came the question of compensation, for something the NHS could hardly do anything except accept was their fault. The NHS promised a settlement by the end of the year, last year 2023, but strangely has not done so by now nearly the end of this year.

This is all in accord with the stalling and stalling for compensation payments to all those other groups where government has been found to be at fault. Its obviously policy, to always delay any kind of settlement.

[Danny]

Nov 13, 2024 9:35:02 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

We now know that it’s possible that the Gulf stream may stop for example. But there could be other things we haven’t spotted yet…

We knew that 50 years ago too, Horizon covered it. Also interesting stuff about AIDS before it really hit the headlines. Phages as possible alternatives to antibiotics, that antibiotics were becoming useless through over use and feeding them to animals. All sorts of stuff which is still topical as if it had only just been discovered.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Nov 13, 2024 10:01:03 GMT Danny said:

Interesting documentary on R4 about people taking DNA tests. In this case someone discovered they had an unknown brother, only it transpired they actually had a complete related family which was not the one they believed was their birth family....because babies had been swapped in a hospital.

Roll on a bit and they contacted the NHS about this, who did their own tests and confirmed what had happened, accepted liability. But then came the question of compensation, for something the NHS could hardly do anything except accept was their fault. The NHS promised a settlement by the end of the year, last year 2023, but strangely has not done so by now nearly the end of this year.

This is all in accord with the stalling and stalling for compensation payments to all those other groups where government has been found to be at fault. Its obviously policy, to always delay any kind of settlement.

more and more control of our lives, yet with less accountability? (Blair regretted the FOIA…)

[Danny]

Nov 13, 2024 9:42:44 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Nov 13, 2024 8:20:24 GMT neilj said:

Talking about the WFA, I'm currently on holiday in the Marina Rubicon area in Playa Blanca, Lanzarote
It's very nice, but we were talking to a retired couple who own a holiday villa here, who were vociferous in complaining about Starmer and the taking away of their WFA

I really tried to summon up some sympathy for their desperate state...
Just need to meet a farmer next and I will be in floods of tears

Yes but when they have come for the boomers and the farmers and small business people and retail and people in hospitality, and the musicians, who will then have fewer places to gig etc., and we do nothing, then when eventually they come for the online posters, even the public sector ones, there will be no one left to defend us…?

You make a fair point about where to draw the line, but a line has to be drawn. And different sides will always demand it be somewhere else. I have little sympathy with complaints that tax structures on hospitality or farming have been changed to suit better the needs of a new government. Thats rather the point of having a new goverment. The same applies in the US, where I seem to recall there was similar wailing and gnashing of teeth after trump was elected the first time. And yet we all survived.

The tax on employment is obviously a good thing if we are ever to move towards a high wage low(er) labour input economy. Which many seem to think is a very desireable aim. You wont encourage more efficient use of the labour force unless you make it more expensive. Parties need to understand immigration to provide extra labour simply has to be ended. What policies are needed to accomplish that? One is certainly to pressurise employers to use fewer workers. Especially in the 'captive' industries which cannot simply relocate abroad. It totally does not help our labour force problems or national economy to create unnecessary part time work waiting in cafes.

[Danny]

Nov 13, 2024 9:48:33 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Nov 13, 2024 9:45:12 GMT lefthanging said:

Could you detail what the others forms of pollution that come with a cooling effect please? And if we polluted more in these ways, how much of the current CO2-caused warming could it counteract?

Well people are talking about that sort of thing, about ways to reflect sunlight to counter warming. 

Obviously solar panels capture some of the incident energy to create electricity, which however eventually gets released back as heat. But I do wonder whether those shiny panels also reflect some sunlight straight back into space? win-win?

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Nov 13, 2024 10:10:25 GMT Danny said:

Nov 13, 2024 9:35:02 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

We now know that it’s possible that the Gulf stream may stop for example. But there could be other things we haven’t spotted yet…

We knew that 50 years ago too, Horizon covered it. Also interesting stuff about AIDS before it really hit the headlines. Phages as possible alternatives to antibiotics, that antibiotics were becoming useless through over use and feeding them to animals. All sorts of stuff which is still topical as if it had only just been discovered.

Funny you should mention Horizon: it provided another red pill moment back in that era. In the early 80s IIRC, they had an episode on the matter of ulcers, and the guy who had discovered an alternative mechanism for causing them: that a virus was implicated. But it wasn’t plain sailing, getting this idea recognised. (This came to mind when I was in hospital, the realisation that it can take time for things to be recognised, but you didn’t always have time…)

[graham]

Nov 13, 2024 1:28:42 GMT eor said:

Nov 12, 2024 13:40:16 GMT graham said:

Justin Welby seems to be in serious trouble regarding failure to deal with abuse allegations committed by John Smyth at Christian summer camps related to Winchester College in the 1970s and 1980s.Difficult to see him surviving .
I do though find it a little difficult to understand why 17 /18 year olds - sometimes older - felt unable to report the guy themselves to the police and other authorities at the time or shortly after the events described.

Even setting aside the tremendous psychological pressure on young people of faith when told by respected elders that their suffering is deemed necessary by their god, there is the more practical consideration that the anonymity afforded to victims by the legal process is often a pure fiction amongst young people in any scandal big enough to be newsworthy.

Once the bombshell lands that community figure X is accused of being a paedophile via specific camps or clubs or even just through the institution they worked at, it's then immediately obvious who the potential victims might be; those identified who were lucky enough to be unscathed can just laugh that off but those who suffered harm then have an immediate choice of persistently lying to their friends, family members, nosey acquaintances and all the rest, or having what happened to them become a matter of local public record, prurience and mockery long before anything gets to court. 

So it's no surprise at all to me that the overwhelming majority of people who were abused in this way chose to silently walk away. And why I think Archbishop Welby used exactly the right word when he spoke of his shame at failing to do enough to properly support those few who were brave enough to speak out despite all the pressures and potential consequences.

That is fair enough , but there are many people who would be out for revenge and determined to bring the predator to justice. I would certainly feel that way.

In a minor way, this appalling abuse story reminds me of what happened at my Boys' Grammar School in the 1960s & 1970s. Although not a victim myself, I am aware of an incident which occurred there in early 1962 - nearly 4 years before my arrival - when a boy was so severely beaten by the Headmaster that he was made to bleed.. The parents did take the matter to the national press and eventually received an apology. No attempt was made to involve the police or Courts - as far as I am aware. To be clear , this guy was not a predator - but very impatient and hot -tempered - effectively temperamentally unstable to the extent that he would lose control of himself when angry. He was certainly not suited to be dishing out punishment in that way. Later incidents also came to pass , yet he was never apprehended for such physical abuse - ie Actual Bodily Harm under the Offences against the Person Act 1861.

[Danny]

Nov 13, 2024 10:32:17 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Nov 13, 2024 10:10:25 GMT Danny said:

We knew that 50 years ago too, Horizon covered it. Also interesting stuff about AIDS before it really hit the headlines. Phages as possible alternatives to antibiotics, that antibiotics were becoming useless through over use and feeding them to animals. All sorts of stuff which is still topical as if it had only just been discovered.

Funny you should mention Horizon: it provided another red pill moment back in that era. In the early 80s IIRC, they had an episode on the matter of ulcers, and the guy who had discovered an alternative mechanism for causing them: that a virus was implicated. But it wasn’t plain sailing, getting this idea recognised. (This came to mind when I was in hospital, the realisation that it can take time for things to be recognised, but you didn’t always have time…)

Bacteria I think. The logic was they cannot live in the acid stomach. A smilar argument has been used to rubbish bio active yoghurts and stuff. And yet it is now considered a healthy gut fauna is essential to good health.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Nov 13, 2024 10:34:37 GMT Danny said:

Nov 13, 2024 10:32:17 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Funny you should mention Horizon: it provided another red pill moment back in that era. In the early 80s IIRC, they had an episode on the matter of ulcers, and the guy who had discovered an alternative mechanism for causing them: that a virus was implicated. But it wasn’t plain sailing, getting this idea recognised. (This came to mind when I was in hospital, the realisation that it can take time for things to be recognised, but you didn’t always have time…)

Bacteria I think. The logic was they cannot live in the acid stomach. A smilar argument has been used to rubbish bio active yoghurts and stuff. And yet it is now considered a healthy gut fauna is essential to good health.

oh yes, bacteria – if I recall correctly, they said you could take antibiotics to clear it up? Regarding the whole gut health thing, oh man, I could fill the pages of this board with stuff like that. My time in hospital involved abdominal issues, and came back to haunt me a decade later, but the science wasn’t as developed as it is now, so I wound up having to figure some stuff out myself with my own experiments. And I still do, though my situation is much improved, in some ways better than before I got ill.

(I don’t know if you saw it, but I talked about this a little with alec in the specific thread: how my intestines got thrown for a loop after taking the booster. On further exploration I learned of research suggesting that the spike protein in the vaccine can potentially throw off your gut fauna…)

[neilj]

Nov 13, 2024 9:42:44 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Nov 13, 2024 8:20:24 GMT neilj said:

Talking about the WFA, I'm currently on holiday in the Marina Rubicon area in Playa Blanca, Lanzarote
It's very nice, but we were talking to a retired couple who own a holiday villa here, who were vociferous in complaining about Starmer and the taking away of their WFA

I really tried to summon up some sympathy for their desperate state...
Just need to meet a farmer next and I will be in floods of tears

Yes but when they have come for the boomers and the farmers

Will no one think of the multi millionaires and second home owners...you've got me started off again I've had to open another box of Kleenex

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Nov 13, 2024 11:38:01 GMT neilj said:

Nov 13, 2024 9:42:44 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Yes but when they have come for the boomers and the farmers

Will no one think of the multi millionaires and second home owners...you've got me started off again I've had to open another box of Kleenex

You left the others out though again Neil, the ones less-well off that I added in. This is the point of the middle class warriors, they are focused on their war with the upper classes doing better than them and don’t care so much for the others.

moby is the same, which is why he gives your post a like. He’s bothered about the inequity of private education, people potentially getting a better education than others in the middle class…

…but when it comes to the middle class privilege over the working class in education, because of being able to afford property in better catchment areas, this is considered “not a priority”

[laszlo4new]

Nov 13, 2024 9:56:03 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Nov 13, 2024 9:46:27 GMT leftieliberal said:

It's only recently been discovered that the top 2 mm of the sea surface is more effective in absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere, because it is slightly cooler than the rest of the near surface water.

That’s interesting. Is it cooler because of evaporative effects? leftieliberal might be more up on it than me: he drew attention to the importance of the oceans as a CO2 sink a while ago when we were considering methods of carbon capture

After long hesitation. Plankton are the biggest CO2 capturers and the biggest O2 providers. Unlike trees that use up as much O2 as they produced in their life and produce as much CO2 as they captured in their life when rotting away (unless it happens in  a swamp or processed instead of letting it rot away), plankton are eaten or sink to the depth. So there is no reverse process like in the case of trees.

[domjg]

Re Feb German Federal elections. Chancellor Merz (almost nailed on) will be far more congenitally, tempermentally suitable to dealing with Trump and may even get on fairly well with him. Scholz and Trump would have been a disaster (well it's a disaster anyway but you get the point). Scholz should never have been chancellor. 

[steve]

With Christmas approaching Refuk enter into the spirit.

[steve]

I know some seem  to object when progressive v journalists use the christofascist 's own words and action to describe what they think
But I think it's  powerful and salient.

Here's a report of the interaction between Kevin Roberts the " brain" behind project 25 and a journalist.

Kevin Roberts is the head of the influential rightwing thinktank the Heritage Foundation,

The Guardian was invited last week to Roberts’s book events in New York and Washington DC. They were billed as an opportunity “to celebrate Dawn’s Early Light: Taking Back Washington to Save America” – Roberts’s new book, which features a foreword by the vice-president-elect, JD Vance.


Roberts, the chief architect of Project 2025, the infamous rightwing plan for Donald Trump’s presidency which would crack down on immigration, dismantle LGBTQ+ and abortion rights and diminish environmental protections, spoke briefly at the event, held in the lavish Kimberly Hotel in midtown New York City, before mingling with the crowd.

Approached by the Guardian, a staff member at the Heritage Foundation said Roberts would be available for a brief interview.

“You’ve got two minutes with our best friend Adam from the Guardian,” the Heritage Foundation employee told Roberts.

Roberts said to the Guardian: “Make it good, the first one [question], otherwise you’re going to pound sand.”( Nope me neither)

It was quite loud in the venue and the Guardian misheard the word “sand”. Asked for clarification, Roberts repeated the phrase.

The Guardian said: “I don’t know what that means,” which seemed to upset Roberts. He reacted angrily.

“It means you’re a bunch of liars, is what it means. So make it good or we’re done,” Roberts said. The Guardian asked if Roberts could elaborate on his “liars” comment, which seemed to upset the Heritage Foundation president further.


“No, we’re done, I’m not talking to you,” Roberts said.

The Guardian, overlapping Roberts slightly, had begun to ask a question about Project 2025, which provides a roadmap on how a Republican president could permanently transform the federal government into a conservative institution.

Roberts replied: “Go to hell.”

It was a surprising outburst from Roberts, seen as one of the masterminds of the conservative blueprint which could change the shape of the US government. Roberts, who said earlier this year that the US was “in the process of the second American Revolution, which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be”, is a highly influential figure on the right.


After the initial encounter, the Guardian returned to Roberts and asked if he would like to add to his earlier comments. A staff member objected, and asked the Guardian to “please move back.” The Guardian acquiesced, and used the opportunity to go to the bathroom, but was intercepted on the way by two burly members of security.

The security members said the Guardian had to leave – no explanation was offered – and confiscated a name tag that had been handed out earlier in the evening. This reporter was then escorted down to street level by a member of security, who then returned to the event.

It was an odd end to what had been a genteel book party. Held in the Kimberly’s Upstairs bar on the 30th floor of the hotel, about 80 people, the men in sharp suits, most of the women in fashionable dresses, had spent time quietly mingling before listening to a conversation between Roberts and Brian Kilmeade, the Fox News host.

The pair discussed Roberts’s book, in which he describes how “many of America’s institutions […] need to be burned”. Included among those to be incinerated, Roberts writes, are the FBI and the New York Times, along with “every Ivy League college”, “80% of ‘Catholic’ higher education”, and the Boy Scouts of America.


That's what awaits the U.S. and its media and while trump apologists here might wish to diminish the significance it's a fundamental change to the U.S and should be considered as such by our country.

[pete]

Nov 13, 2024 11:45:06 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Nov 13, 2024 11:38:01 GMT neilj said:

Will no one think of the multi millionaires and second home owners...you've got me started off again I've had to open another box of Kleenex

You left the others out though again Neil, the ones less-well off that I added in. This is the point of the middle class warriors, they are focused on their war with the upper classes doing better than them and don’t care so much for the others.

moby is the same, which is why he gives your post a like. He’s bothered about the inequity of private education, people potentially getting a better education than others in the middle class…

…but when it comes to the middle class privilege over the working class in education, because of being able to afford property in better catchment areas, this is considered “not a priority”

Make all schools great, again.

[neilj]

Nov 13, 2024 11:45:06 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Nov 13, 2024 11:38:01 GMT neilj said:

Will no one think of the multi millionaires and second home owners...you've got me started off again I've had to open another box of Kleenex

You left the others out though again Neil, the ones less-well off that I added in. This is the point of the middle class warriors, they are focused on their war with the upper classes doing better than them and don’t care so much for the others.

moby is the same, which is why he gives your post a like. He’s bothered about the inequity of private education, people potentially getting a better education than others in the middle class…

…but when it comes to the middle class privilege over the working class in education, because of being able to afford property in better catchment areas, this is considered “not a priority”

I'm focused on making the left behind better off. In reality that means increased taxes and those with the broadest shoulders should pay more. Yes better off people can and will whinge about it, indeed I myself will lose out on the WFA, but sometimes, just sometimes you have to think of the greater good

The Reeves budget was massively redistributive, including increased borrowing to help public services that are at breaking point following 14 years of tory austerity

I can live with the bleating of very rich people who bought land as an inheritance tax dodge and those with second homes moaning

[somerjohn]

Colin: : "The top five purchasers of U.S. goods exports in 2022 were: Canada ($356.5 billion), Mexico ($324.3 billion), China ($150.4 billion), Japan ($80.2 billion), and the United Kingdom ($76.2 billion)......etc

That appears to be an attempt - though not acknowledged as such - to debunk Steve's post immediately above it, which pointed out that the UK is only the USA's seventh largest trading partner.

Trade goes both ways, as you know quite well. So the UK's position as a trading partner is based on the sum of its goods and services exports to the USA, and goods and services imports from the USA. Four items in all.

Which makes it odd that you've based your debunking on just two of those four items: UK imports of goods from the USA, and UK exports of services to the USA.

Funnily enough, one of the two you've omitted is UK goods exports to the USA, where we aren't even in the top 10. That's what drags our position as an overall trading partner down to seventh, as Steve said.

"The top five suppliers of U.S. goods imports in 2022 were: China ($536.3 billion), Mexico ($454.8 billion), Canada ($436.6 billion), Japan ($148.1 billion), and Germany ($146.6 billion). U.S. goods imports from the European Union 27 were $553.3 billion."

and for the sake of completeness, here's the other:

"The top five purchasers of U.S. services exports in 2022 were: Ireland ($83.1 billion), the United Kingdom ($80.9 billion), Canada ($69.5 billion), Switzerland ($52.4 billion), and China ($42.2 billion). U.S. services exports to the European Union 27 were $238.6 billion."

ustr.gov/countries-regions

The source of your and my quotes, the Office of the United States Trade Representative, doesn't appear to pull those figures together into an overall ranking of trading partners, nor does it rank the UK's position in terms of goods supplier to the USA. So I turned to another source, USA Facts, which uses figures from the US International Trade Administration.

For 2023, in total goods and services, these rank the UK as 7th biggest buyer of US exports, and not in the top 10 for imports. Going to the ITA website shows we were actually 12th biggest.

usafacts.org/articles/who-are-the-uss-top-trade-partners/


At this point, I feel I've done enough researching. Suffice it to say that if you want to make Steve look silly - rather than yourself - you're going to have to try harder.

[steve]

This should trigger Turk the same journalist he finds offensive using maga's own words and actions to show what a clown show farce the U.S. have to expect.

It's not the messenger you should blame it's the cluster shambles they're reporting and the village idiots who engaged vote without thinking.

youtu.be/gnQXFCta64o?si=z3Nmv76ns_KhuTJe

[pete]

Nov 13, 2024 1:24:34 GMT mercian said:

moby
I understand that this is a difficult situation for that individual, but as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong) individual states decide the rules under which abortion is allowed or not by democratic means.
Surely individuals shouldn't be able to decide which laws they choose to obey?

You make it sound like a stroll in the park.
Would you obey a rule that could kill you?

[steve]

somerjohn

I don't often see Colin's responses, life's too short, but as you say a basic bit of fact checking goes a long way.

I was actually slightly surprised when I checked as I thought Mexico was in first place.

Best trump gets that ice wall built as well don't want Americans escaping to their sane northern neighbour.

[colin]

Nov 13, 2024 14:06:04 GMT somerjohn said:

Colin: : "The top five purchasers of U.S. goods exports in 2022 were: Canada ($356.5 billion), Mexico ($324.3 billion), China ($150.4 billion), Japan ($80.2 billion), and the United Kingdom ($76.2 billion)......etc

That appears to be an attempt - though not acknowledged as such - to debunk Steve's post immediately above it, 

Not really that.

Just a rather quick over-breakfast response to his crack about "no mates" UK. He uses it a lot and I know you and he like to concentrate on what you perceive as UK's comparative failings. So I picked a couple of stats which indicated a comparatively significant trade relationship with USA.

Whilst taking your point on manufactures exported to USA, with reference to the Services Trade ( which i highlighted ) I was interested to see that reported front runner for UK Ambassador to, USA-Peter Mandelson said "“We’ve just got to look forwards to a more 21st-century set of trading arrangements, which are more to do with clicks and portals than goods and mortar.”

He also said "“We have got to navigate our way through this and have, I’m afraid, the best of both worlds. We have got to find a way to have our cake and eat it,”  !

Sounds like someone with a positive attitude with interests of UK at heart. I hope he gets the job.


Just a response to aggregating Trade into "EU" numbers. I think thats pretty meaningless. Apart from inter-bloc tariff & customs arrangements , there is no single body which can influence that number. Trade is conducted with each country , on the basis of the goods and services on offer. and  differing regulation-and indeed language -are a feature of each national market.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Nov 13, 2024 14:00:36 GMT neilj said:

Nov 13, 2024 11:45:06 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

You left the others out though again Neil, the ones less-well off that I added in. This is the point of the middle class warriors, they are focused on their war with the upper classes doing better than them and don’t care so much for the others.

moby is the same, which is why he gives your post a like. He’s bothered about the inequity of private education, people potentially getting a better education than others in the middle class…

…but when it comes to the middle class privilege over the working class in education, because of being able to afford property in better catchment areas, this is considered “not a priority”

I'm focused on making the left behind better off. In reality that means increased taxes and those with the broadest shoulders should pay more. Yes better off people can and will whinge about it, indeed I myself will lose out on the WFA, but sometimes, just sometimes you have to think of the greater good

The Reeves budget was massively redistributive, including increased borrowing to help public services that are at breaking point following 14 years of tory austerity

I can live with the bleating of very rich people who bought land as an inheritance tax dodge and those with second homes moaning

I wasn’t challenging the point about rich people. I was talking about the effects of the budget on some of the less well off. Reeves budget might have involved some redistribution to some people, in some ways, but that doesn’t mean others don’t take a hit.

There is also a broader point: should we focus on diminishing assets, or helping people build them up. Obviously big disparities might not be desirable, but do you want to keep reducing the number who have assets or aiming for as many as possible to have them?

The Third Way approach beloved of New Labour, might do a bit of redistribution, but they were still pulling the ladder up, in other ways. Just saying you’re in favour of some redistribution doesn’t really cut it.

And also, what’s the focus? Many activists might say they are in favour of levelling, but with some, most of the effort does not go into looking at ways to do policies to improve things. They are ok with sticking plasters that leave people in the hole and a lot of the effort involves slagging off hate figures in the classes above.

[neilj]

Nov 13, 2024 14:45:44 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Nov 13, 2024 14:00:36 GMT neilj said:

I'm focused on making the left behind better off. In reality that means increased taxes and those with the broadest shoulders should pay more. Yes better off people can and will whinge about it, indeed I myself will lose out on the WFA, but sometimes, just sometimes you have to think of the greater good

The Reeves budget was massively redistributive, including increased borrowing to help public services that are at breaking point following 14 years of tory austerity

I can live with the bleating of very rich people who bought land as an inheritance tax dodge and those with second homes moaning

I wasn’t challenging the point about rich people. I was talking about the effects of the budget on some of the less well off. Reeves budget might have involved some redistribution to some people, in some ways, but that doesn’t mean others don’t take a hit.

There is also a broader point: should we focus on diminishing assets, or helping people build them up. Obviously big disparities might not be desirable, but do you want to keep reducing the number who have assets or aiming for as many as possible to have them?

The Third Way approach beloved of New Labour, might do a bit of redistribution, but they were still pulling the ladder up, in other ways. Just saying you’re in favour of some redistribution doesn’t really cut it.

And also, what’s the focus? Many activists might say they are in favour of levelling, but most of the effort does not go into looking at ways to do policies to improve things. They just offer sticking plasters that leave people in the hole and a lot of the effort involves slagging off hate figures in the classes above 

Really not sure what you are saying
What I do know is that public services need a massive injection of spending, taxing people more and extra borrowing is the only realistic way of doing it. It's the relatively poor that rely most on state support and services and will benefit most from increased spending on public services
I am more than happy for tax loopholes on private education and land to be closed to help the less well off, are you?

There was criticism of Biden and the Democrats for not doing more in the way of tax redistribution to help those struggling, I am very happy Labour is doing this

Could they do more, probably, but with the money markets it's important not to spook them
Let's not the perfect be the enemy of the good and I'll leave with Dyson and Clarkson
whinging because their heirs may have to pay a bit more tax

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Nov 13, 2024 15:01:18 GMT neilj said:

Nov 13, 2024 14:45:44 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

I wasn’t challenging the point about rich people. I was talking about the effects of the budget on some of the less well off. Reeves budget might have involved some redistribution to some people, in some ways, but that doesn’t mean others don’t take a hit.

There is also a broader point: should we focus on diminishing assets, or helping people build them up. Obviously big disparities might not be desirable, but do you want to keep reducing the number who have assets or aiming for as many as possible to have them?

The Third Way approach beloved of New Labour, might do a bit of redistribution, but they were still pulling the ladder up, in other ways. Just saying you’re in favour of some redistribution doesn’t really cut it.

And also, what’s the focus? Many activists might say they are in favour of levelling, but most of the effort does not go into looking at ways to do policies to improve things. They just offer sticking plasters that leave people in the hole and a lot of the effort involves slagging off hate figures in the classes above 

Really not sure what you are saying
What I do know is that public services need a massive injection of spending, taxing people more and extra borrowing is the only realistic way of doing it. It's the relatively poor that rely most on state support and services and will benefit most from increased spending on public services
I am more than happy for tax loopholes on private education and land to be closed to help the less well off, are you?

There was criticism of Biden and the Democrats for not doing more in the way of tax redistribution to help those struggling, I am very happy Labour is doing this

Could they do more, probably, but with the money markets it's important not to spook them
Let's not the perfect be the enemy of the good and I'll leave with Dyson and Clarkson
whinging because their heirs may have to pay a bit more tax

to answer your questions, I don’t have a problem with closing tax loopholes, with tax on private education, or with redistribution. My point in part is that this is nowhere near enough. We have had redistribution for effing years, but the ladder keeps being pulled up. 

The point is, the fans of the third Way, social democracy, whatever you want to call it, only tend to offer policies that maintain middle-class hegemony. They say they care, but never enough to seriously challenge middle-class advantage. They might care a bit more than the neoliberals, but then it peters out a bit. Tax private schools, but let’s not worry about middle-class advantage in state schools. 

And now, people who make stuff, and need assets to do so, are now more in the firing line. It’s a handy budget for middle-class proceduralists, especially in the public sector. Labour is as they say, the party of the public sector elite. But worrying for others…

Also, slagging off Musk and Trump every day is of limited merit. We aren’t even on the same continent. And not very positive, compared to exploring solutions regarding housing and allsorts.