|
|
Post by robbiealive on Jun 13, 2024 10:34:12 GMT
robbiealive Is the rather self important "I shall return to this later" a threat or promise, Robbie? I unreservedly welcome your return to this forum, but that was a disappointingly weird rant of a post, I have to say. Ranting is the only mode of communication that I use on this site. leftieliberal made a plea for tolerance. I was merely drawing attention to the intolerance of the site's anti-BBC obsessional rants which I find just as weird plus unbalanced & so poorly argued. If I'm wrong explain why. Self-important should be hyphenated. |
|
|
|
Post by thylacine on Jun 13, 2024 10:38:12 GMT
Why is everyone so tetchy today? Have the SNP staged a massive revival?
|
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,364
|
Post by Danny on Jun 13, 2024 10:42:47 GMT
This isn't remotely surprising. Strikes will have had an impact to a degree, but we've also seen a lengthy period last year where covid was a more minor influence as we went through a relative quiet period in terms of variant evolution. ....In the UK, figures are hard to come by as we've gone from having some of the best surveillance systems in the world to probably the worst, in western countries at least, so it's very difficult to know what the score is here. There are reported ward closures in several hospitals due to covid outbreaks, in June, which is a bit bizarre for a virus that is meant to be 'endemic' and 'like a normal seasonal virus'. Hi alec, I'm sure everyone is absolutely delighted that you remind us of covid, which absolutley none of the main parties want to talk about in an election because they all pretty much agreed on policy, give or take a bit of argy on whether mates were given contracts or serious attempts were made to recover fraudulently claimed money. I have to disagree that we have ever had an accurate surveillance system for covid. Possibly one of the best, but never a good one. A good one would have recorded all the cases, but we never came near doing that. As time went on official daily totals rose but all that really reflected was if you do more tests then you get more test confirmed cases. The background statistics show little change to the state of the NHS because of covid. There were certain trends in place of deteriorating performance before covid, which got scrambled a bit but are now back on track. There is a splendid correlation between how labour in government increased spending and performance indicators improved, then how con allowed spending to fall (compared to growing demand) and performance measures deteriorated. Its no different to the growing number of potholes, or the steadily failing strength of UK armed forces. Neither main party is too keen to talk about that in detail because they have no solution to finding more money. Hospitals seem more conscious of risk of infection if you visit them, but I suspect that is merely taking advantage of changes forced on them during the emergency to pernmanently change their regime. basically, its bad news to have visitors to wards who dont need to be there because the world is full of all sorts of diseases which can compromise people who are already sick. The NHS also learnt the lesson that it needs more single patient rooms, but thats a truly massive rebuilding program no one wants to talk about. PFI has left a legacy of contracts which mean hospitals are still being paid for even as their users might be thinking of rebuilding. Thats PFI invented by con under major, but then continued by Blair and his various conservative successors. So no one wants to talk about that. and then, since you insist, covid. I had covid winter 19/20, there is no other reasonable explanation. Caught it from a visitor from Wuhan. Hastings and bexhill had little covid in spring 2020 when the rest of the country did, something used academically to pinpoint the start point of diseases, because the first cases before anyone realises its arrived never get recorded, and its over there before the main outbreak gets going. Hastings became immune to that first strain through infection without really noticing a surge of deaths much worse than a normal bad winter. Which means it would never have anywhere become as bad as government claimed, and the massive interventions were essentially pointless. A horrendous waste of money. The vaccination program failed to end the epidemic as hoped, and did not create lasting immunity because it mutates. We have in the end gone back to living with it, as indeed you say, but there isnt a realistic alternative. All lockdowns did was delay this process. Right now we are seeing the recession that created, the inflation that created and the surge in national debt it created. No party wants to talk about that. |
|
|
|
Post by bendo on Jun 13, 2024 10:47:51 GMT
Sunak cannot catch a break: yesterday stagnant growth, today "Hospital waiting list figure for England rises for first time in 7 months, to 7.57m, figures show" Yes, but they are coming down from when they were higher. |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,364
|
Post by Danny on Jun 13, 2024 10:48:47 GMT
the main storyline now is "will the Tories be annihilated?" Con had hoped Johnson would become the national scapegoat for Brexit failure, but that got sidetracked because he was needed as the scapegoat for Covid management failure. See last post, but covid has not featured much as yet sp that seems to be working. But brexit is an altogether bigger problem and while lab are sitting on their hands in support of con, farage certainly isnt. He has big dollops of brexit failed to end immigration and a side dish of incompetent brexit implementation. So I think you are right, there is a risk for con that all they are doing now is point out that voters could annihilate them and perhaps therefore concentrating minds on just how to do that. Once its accepted there is no chance of winning, then even committed tories might think its a good idea to punish the current shower who made such an awful mess. Only if they are got rid of does the conservative party have a chance to come back to power. So the more can be ousted at this election, the better even for commited con voters. |
|
|
|
Post by James E on Jun 13, 2024 10:50:59 GMT
robbiealive Thanks for your kind words, although I don't think that my output of 9 posts in the past week can be described as "busy". Some regulars here have been known to post that many in an hour... As for Election Maps - I know no more about them than you can read from their twitter account. They seem to be the obvious source for newly released polls, and their nowcast looks decent to me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2024 10:52:49 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by crossbat11 on Jun 13, 2024 11:04:42 GMT
robbiealive Is the rather self important "I shall return to this later" a threat or promise, Robbie? I unreservedly welcome your return to this forum, but that was a disappointingly weird rant of a post, I have to say. Ranting is the only mode of communication that I use on this site. leftieliberal made a plea for tolerance. I was merely drawing attention to the intolerance of the site's anti-BBC obsessional rants which I find just as weird plus unbalanced & so poorly argued. If I'm wrong explain why. Self-important should be hyphenated. It's perfectly possible to value and respect the BBC and still have views about some of their journalists and journalism that stray from dutiful reverence. I've criticised Kuennsberg heavily in the past but I haven't ranted about her. I won't rehearse my criticisms of her journalism, I have written many a past post detailing them, but I find her biased beyond acceptable balance and impartiality and curiously superficial in her political analysis. She's not the worst interviewer in the world but I find it a mystery why she has been elevated to her post as the BBC's most senior political reporter. That's just my honestly held opinion. You obviously disagree with it. That's fine. I'd be very interested to hear your reasons why I may be wrong. Like others I prefer Darbyshire, but nobody is getting personal or hating anybody here. I'm surprised you're creating straw men by suggesting they are. I thought your suggestion, by the way, that Darbyshire attracted some of the the praise she did because of her recent cancer diagnosis and subsequent treatment, a very strange one indeed. Hence my description of your post as being weird. Weird to me anyway. Disappointing too in its surprising blanket condemnation of those of us expressing what I think are quite a wide range of nuanced opinions about the BBC's political and current affairs coverage. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2024 11:06:01 GMT
robbiealive Thanks for your kind words, although I don't think that my output of 9 posts in the past weeks can be described as "busy". Some regulars here have been known to post that many in an hour... …and that’s when they’re slacking. |
|
|
|
Post by crossbat11 on Jun 13, 2024 11:06:40 GMT
Why is everyone so tetchy today? Have the SNP staged a massive revival? Piss off, why won't you. |
|
|
|
Post by graham on Jun 13, 2024 11:07:10 GMT
I find it difficult to imagine today's political leaders addressing mass audiences of 1000 - 1500 people and coping with interrutions from hecklers at those meetings. They are not in the same league as the likes of Harold Wilson, George Brown, Ted Heath, Quintin Hogg etc from the 1960s - or even Thatcher, Foot and Kinnock from the 1980s and early 1990s. It now invariably comes across as so conrived and insincere, and in my view they fail to connect with people in the way that was true of their predecessors of decades ago. That might partly explain the fall in turnout levels. In the longrun, the switch to soundbite campaigning has done the country no favours.
|
|
|
|
Post by bardin1 on Jun 13, 2024 11:11:17 GMT
I find it difficult to imagine today's political leaders addressing mass audiences of 1000 - 1500 people and coping with interrutions from hecklers at those meetings. They are not in the same league as the likes of Harold Wilson, George Brown, Ted Heath, Quintin Hogg etc from the 1960s - or even Thatcher, Foot and Kinnock from the 1980s and early 1990s. It now invariably comes across as so conrived and insincere, and in my view they fail to connect with people in the way that was true of their predecessors of decades ago. That might partly explain the fall in turnout levels. In the longrun, the switch to soundbite campaigning has done the country no favours. I agree though I would ascribe it to the growth of control by marketing professionals. Politicians now say only what ghey have been briefed to say. The public increasingly spot this and detest it. Hence the more apparently off the cuff statements of Boris Johnston and Nigel farage appeal more than the Starmer and Sunak blandness to many. |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,364
|
Post by Danny on Jun 13, 2024 11:12:10 GMT
I see the conservatives open talking about covid and the Ukraine war. Why they want to talk about having a policy to host either of those things beats me. Is it symbolic they think its safer to talk about either of them than anything else happening now? Labour say they want change change change change change....... We should all donate our bottles of coins. OK, thats a cheap joke i inserted for reasons of balance. Con are trying to say the recovery we are seeing now is based on their sound management before covid also, which is why Britain is now doing so well. Labour is saying anyone who looks can see that is rubbish and so we need a change of government and direction. |
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,123
|
Post by domjg on Jun 13, 2024 11:14:33 GMT
Oh for God's sake. My comment arose from reading expressions of sympathy for Sunak: e.g. crossbat11 : He looks an utterly broken man to me. This already elongated campaign, with three weeks still left to run, has the potential to get increasingly painful for Sunak. I fear this thing could become a horrible spectacle and we may witness a personal ordeal so excruciating that anyone with a shred of humanity would want it to stop.Let's fast forward it to when we can vote and end it all. For Sunak's sake.Sunak made hundreds of millions doing what exactly. He is not only v right-wing economically but also socially. He made a grubby deal with the appalling Braverman so he could gain the leadership. He made Badenoch equalities minister, yes equalities!, who is obsessed with toilets & conducts the silliest of anti-woke campaigns. He was quite happy to persecute Angela Rayner on the basis she evaded CGT, which arose from Ashcroft's smear, who has avoided £X00 Mill in tax & condescends to give a few mill back to the Tory party. Etc, etc. Besides the length of the campaign was his decision, which he took for purely tactical reasons. If the decision has backfired tough. Show me one shred of humanity is his policies & I'll weep out of one eye. As for persecutinbg occupation groups. The anti-BBC cabal on here, just about everybody, obsessively criticise individual BBC journalists in a campaign which is as boring & vindictive as it is one-sided. Posters grub around finding examples to confirm their "theory", in total disregard of any rules of proper debate; in tirades which are as unbalanced as they claim BBC journalism to be! White Swans are everywhere. Sundays on here are are Laura Kuenssberg Hate Days. The venom displayed towards her & other BBC journalists is ever present. (I shall return to this subject). The only place you see more slagging of the BBC is the D. Telegraph. I don't despise journalists only those who pump out anti-Labour lies in the gutter press, who don't deserve the title anyway. As for V. Derbyshire: lots of MPs from all parties cosy up to her because the poor woman had breast cancer. That include MPs who have voted for tax cuts over adequate NHS provision. Don't make me laugh. Plus the logic of her argument which leaps from disparaging politicians to killing them is defective. I thought it was a feeble magazine piece which cost me a few seconds of my life. I'd be interested to see how you would defend Kuenssberg. She doesn't even attempt to hide her 'one of them' tory party clubbiness and inability to be impartial, she seems proud of her 'connections' instead of her independence. That and her comical levels of self-aggrandising self-importance make her ludicrously ill suited for her role in my opinion but then the ueber nepotistic BBC seems unable to appoint based on suitability. The wider point is that BBC political reporting occurs in a place where the above is tolerated and probably encouraged. Tells me all I need to know about the reliability and integrity of the BBC news organisation these days. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2024 11:22:06 GMT
Why is everyone so tetchy today? Have the SNP staged a massive revival? Piss off, why won't you. I have reported your “post” to the landlord and hope you are evicted forthwith - you rude fukker. |
|
|
|
Post by graham on Jun 13, 2024 11:27:43 GMT
I find it difficult to imagine today's political leaders addressing mass audiences of 1000 - 1500 people and coping with interrutions from hecklers at those meetings. They are not in the same league as the likes of Harold Wilson, George Brown, Ted Heath, Quintin Hogg etc from the 1960s - or even Thatcher, Foot and Kinnock from the 1980s and early 1990s. It now invariably comes across as so conrived and insincere, and in my view they fail to connect with people in the way that was true of their predecessors of decades ago. That might partly explain the fall in turnout levels. In the longrun, the switch to soundbite campaigning has done the country no favours. I agree though I would ascribe it to the growth of control by marketing professionals. Politicians now say only what ghey have been briefed to say. The public increasingly spot this and detest it. Hence the more apparently off the cuff statements of Boris Johnston and Nigel farage appeal more than the Starmer and Sunak blandness to many. The reliance on marketing professionals has warped the former interaction between political leaders and voters. The insincerity is so obvious , and you are quite correct the the likes of Johnson and Farage provide 'a breath of fresh air' and manage to connect far more effectively. Why has this not dawned on most political leaders? |
|
|
|
Post by shevii on Jun 13, 2024 11:38:42 GMT
We were asked to "wait for the manifesto" and there's literally nothing I could pick up from the summaries, other than the bits and pieces we had heard already. Anyone got a full list of specific promises? |
|
|
|
Post by norbold on Jun 13, 2024 11:45:05 GMT
I find it difficult to imagine today's political leaders addressing mass audiences of 1000 - 1500 people and coping with interrutions from hecklers at those meetings. They are not in the same league as the likes of Harold Wilson, George Brown, Ted Heath, Quintin Hogg etc from the 1960s - or even Thatcher, Foot and Kinnock from the 1980s and early 1990s. It now invariably comes across as so conrived and insincere, and in my view they fail to connect with people in the way that was true of their predecessors of decades ago. That might partly explain the fall in turnout levels. In the longrun, the switch to soundbite campaigning has done the country no favours. I saw both Harold Wilson and Ted Heath addressing large audiences in Norwich during the 1966 election. Wilson was absolutely brilliant with hecklers and took part in some excellent repartee. Heath was hopeless - he just had security throw them out. |
|
|
|
Post by norbold on Jun 13, 2024 11:46:06 GMT
It was good Of Starmer to say he heard it is nice in Clacton at this time of year - hopefully it will boost our tourist trade. Not so sure about the rest of his comments about Clacton!
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,643
|
Post by steve on Jun 13, 2024 11:46:45 GMT
"Meanwhile the Tory manifesto has no photos at all"
It has a lot of flags though
The Labour manifesto is sadly devoid of many flags it's also devoid of any mention of how to address the damage of brexit but has ruled in keeping the shit changes caused by brexit i.e. outside of the single market and customs union and endorse the theft of our rights to freedom of movement.
Maybe they should have had more flags.
The manifestos from all three national parties that are likely to see a reasonable number of seats are now out.
The liberal democrats effort is by objective standards the most progressive and transformative ( left wing if you like) of the three
|
|
|
|
Post by norbold on Jun 13, 2024 11:48:50 GMT
"Meanwhile the Tory manifesto has no photos at all" It has a lot of flags though Are they upside down? |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,643
|
Post by steve on Jun 13, 2024 11:56:08 GMT
"It was good Of Starmer to say he heard it is nice in Clacton at this time of year -"
All politicians lie.
|
|
|
|
Post by shevii on Jun 13, 2024 12:06:19 GMT
Of course they are. immigration seems to be a huge deal for a certain group of the population. I dont care about peoples race so long as they are friendly to get along with, but even so it becomes ridiculous if your country changes so much because of the sheer numbers of immigrants with different cultural traditions. And if climate change gets going, this will become worse not better. The EU provided a pool of labour with traditions closer to our own than encouraging people to come here from all over the world as we are now doing. Obviously this is going to create a voting block. Any middle ground parties who want to prevent that need to figure a solution which pretty much does what farage is campaigning for, net zero immigration. Though I noticed Scotland has had a longstanding desire for more immigration, its significanlty under populated compared to the rest of the UK. The Scots want more devolved powers and allowing them to create their own immigration rules would be a good idea. Far better to send the boat people to Scotland if they want them. Let them have the millions paid to Rwanda. Polling on attitudes to immigration is quite hard because people will use euphemisms like "take back control" when they don't want to sound racist. I'm not sure this is all cultural, although there may be an element to people thinking that way in areas that aren't already multicultural. I personally have very little worry about "culture", maybe at the margins if I felt that religious & cultural extremism was threatening my (Western liberal) values but I see almost no evidence of this and most of the clampdown on social liberalism seems to have come from white Tories. My personal worry is over population numbers, building over green land and a constant failed attempt to catch up with infrastructure. Other people's worries might be competition for housing, wages, and opportunities (why train a doctor/nurse/plumber when you can import one? Why pay someone a higher salary in hospitality or care work when you can import someone on a lower salary?). Some of these arguments may be overblown or may have solutions, and aside from the green land issue there are political solutions to low pay, jobs and training, but they cost money which governments having been willing to spend. Pay a care worker the right amount for a particular area and you will get care workers and if that means £25 an hour in London because they have to find £1500 in rent every month then so be it. Fix the issues of cost of living, jobs and housing and I suspect most of the steam will go out of the immigration debate as a major issue, even if there is still a hardcore racist vote and even if me and alec still have a minority view about population numbers. Politically me and Alec are not a "threat" anyway because we're not the kind of people who would ever vote ROC or far right. |
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,392
Member is Online
|
Post by neilj on Jun 13, 2024 12:26:42 GMT
'Craig Williams, the Tory candidate and aide to Rishi Sunak apologised for placing a £100 bet on a July election just three days before the prime minister named the date.
Williams said:
I clearly made a huge error of judgment, that’s for sure, and I apologise.
But Williams refused to say whether he placed the bet on the basis of insider information about when Sunak was planning to hold the election'
If it wasn't because of insider information there's no reason he wouldn't come out categorically and say that. Just the latest example of tory sleaze and corruption
|
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,573
|
Post by pjw1961 on Jun 13, 2024 12:28:47 GMT
I hope people like the look of Starmer, because by my count there a 22 pictures of him, plus 4 of him with Reeves, 2 of him with Rayner and 1 each of him with Miliband, Cooper, Streeting, Gething and Lammy. There is one picture only of a Labour politician sans the leader - Angela Rayner. |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,364
|
Post by Danny on Jun 13, 2024 12:41:21 GMT
'Craig Williams, the Tory candidate and aide to Rishi Sunak apologised for placing a £100 bet on a July election just three days before the prime minister named the date. Williams said: I clearly made a huge error of judgment, that’s for sure, and I apologise. But Williams refused to say whether he placed the bet on the basis of insider information about when Sunak was planning to hold the election' If it wasn't because of insider information there's no reason he wouldn't come out categorically and say that. Just the latest example of tory sleaze and corruption Im no at all clear it is illegal to use insider information to bet on the election date. I looked at the gambling commission website, where they threaten legal action but dont explain the basis for doing so. What they do do is recommend all organisation to make it a condition of employment not to use insider information in this way. Which very much sounds like it isnt actually a crime, if they have to create ways to prevent people doing this. Bookmakers use their own insider information and expertise all the time to ensure odds are stacked to guarantee they make a profit. |
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,721
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jun 13, 2024 13:04:16 GMT
We were asked to "wait for the manifesto" and there's literally nothing I could pick up from the summaries, other than the bits and pieces we had heard already. Anyone got a full list of specific promises? just came across this as a possible starting point in the Telegraph live feed: The Labour manifesto at a glance
Immigration: Create a new Border Security Command to go after people smuggling gangs. Hire additional caseworkers to tackle the asylum backlog. Scrap the Rwanda plan. Net migration: Labour “will reduce net migration”. Debt: Debt must be falling as a share of the economy by the fifth year of the next Parliament. Education: Introduce free breakfast clubs in every primary school. Tax: No increase to National Insurance, income tax or VAT. Non-dom status will be abolished. Corporation tax will be capped at the current level of 25 per cent. Fiscal events: There will only be one major fiscal event a year. Housing: Build 1.5 million new homes over the next five years. Energy: Set up a new Great British Energy company to “cut bills for good”. Crime: Introduce a new Neighbourhood Policing Guarantee to restore patrols in local communities. |
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,721
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jun 13, 2024 13:05:27 GMT
I think the Lib Dem manifesto offers to build more houses per year than Labour?
|
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,392
Member is Online
|
Post by neilj on Jun 13, 2024 13:24:12 GMT
Full list of what's included in the Labour Manifesto x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1801227981655847178Worth reading it all, but a selection here All adults to receive a "genuine" minimum wage no matter your age - Increase NHS appointments by 40,000 per week, funded by cracking down on tax avoidance Ensure patients wait no longer than 18 weeks from referral for consultant-led treatment of non-urgent health conditions - Deliver an extra two million NHS operations, scans, and appointments every year Provide 700,000 more urgent dental appointments Launch Great British Energy with a windfall tax on oil and gas giants Hire 6,500 new teachers by ending tax breaks for private schools - Voting age to 16 for all elections - Introduce free breakfast clubs in every primary school - Remove hereditary peers' voting rights and set a mandatory retirement age of 80 in the House of Lords Enforce restrictions on ministers lobbying for the companies they used to regulate - Ban MPs from taking up paid advisory or consultancy roles Abolish non-dom status and ending the use of offshore trusts for inheritance tax avoidance - Close the loophole on private equity capital gains tax Introduce Great British Railways and secure the aviation industry's future Restore the 2030 phase-out date for new cars with combustion engines Ensure the next generation can never legally buy cigarettes - Ban vapes from being branded and advertised to appeal to children Halving the gap in healthy life expectancy between the richest and poorest regions in England Immediately end Section 21 'no fault' evictions, protect private renters from exploitation and discrimination, empower them to contest unfair rent hikes, and improve standards, including extending 'Awaab’s Law' to the private sector - Enact Law Commission proposals on leasehold enfranchisement, right to manage, and commonhold - Ban new leasehold flats and make commonhold the default tenure - Address unregulated and unaffordable ground rent charges - End 'fleecehold' private housing estates and unfair maintenance costs - Develop a new cross-government strategy with Mayors and Councils to end homelessness in Britain - Ensure justice and compensation for victims of the Horizon Scandal - Build 1.5 million new homes and new social renter homes Ban trail hunting, hunting trophy imports, puppy smuggling, puppy farming, and snare traps |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,573
|
Post by pjw1961 on Jun 13, 2024 14:03:54 GMT
That manifesto does address the lazy trope that there is no difference between Labour and the Conservatives. Anyone can rightly say they don't like where Labour is positioned - that's a matter of free choice - but there are very plainly things in Labour's manifesto that would never appear in that of the current Conservative Party.
|
|
