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Post by Rafwan on May 7, 2024 18:46:18 GMT
I am no longer able to comment on PoliticalBetting.com. Access to this function has been withdrawn as a result of my having referred to 'Netanyahu's Einzatzgruppen.'A couple of guys 'flagged' it up to bring its attention to the Moderators. I feel this is far too censotius and that my comment was a fair and reasonable expression of opinion . In no sense was it AntiSemitic. Any views? One of the specific examples of antisemitism given in the IHRA definition is: "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." So an automatic red card. I believe all the major UK parties have now adopted that definition, so you would be expelled from any and all of them. holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitismDoesn’t the definition say this COULD be an example, depending on context? So possibly not really automatic? (Don’t know who is supposed to decide though!) |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on May 7, 2024 18:51:10 GMT
One of the specific examples of antisemitism given in the IHRA definition is: "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." So an automatic red card. I believe all the major UK parties have now adopted that definition, so you would be expelled from any and all of them. holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitismThe logic of that is that even when the Israeli Government is acting like the Nazis we are not permitted to say so.Effectively it gives the likes of Netanyahu and other extremists a blank cheque and perhaps goes some way to explaining how this regime has todate got away with so much. The suggestion that normal rules do not apply to Israel is likely to encourage AntiSemiticism . It really is a nonsense. There are plenty of other ways to express your displeasure at Israeli policy and behaviour, just leave the Nazis out of it. In fact, please do us all a favour and cut out the constant references to that era in other contexts as well. They are either way over the top or highly distasteful or both. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,580
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Post by pjw1961 on May 7, 2024 19:02:55 GMT
One of the specific examples of antisemitism given in the IHRA definition is: "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." So an automatic red card. I believe all the major UK parties have now adopted that definition, so you would be expelled from any and all of them. holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitismDoesn’t the definition say this COULD be an example, depending on context? So possibly not really automatic? (Don’t know who is supposed to decide though!) I don't think there is a lot of room for doubt over what graham wrote - do you? Just as a footnote, I prefer the Jerusalem declaration, as it more explicitly sets out that it is not antisemitic to criticise Israeli government policy and behaviour, but as Athena pointed out in this case it doesn't make a lot of difference. jerusalemdeclaration.org/ |
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Post by jib on May 7, 2024 19:06:48 GMT
In terms of the Nazi references - agree, cut them out as well as the "Fascist" and other very dubious jibes like "waste of skin".
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Post by crossbat11 on May 7, 2024 19:19:41 GMT
Graham's one and only useful role on this site,, as far as I'm concerned anyway, is to continue to comment on Scottish politics, particularly when he signals the drastic demise of the SNP.
It is usually utter bollocks but it's the sort of bollocks that I want to hear
🤣👍
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Post by alec on May 7, 2024 19:20:56 GMT
Wonder if the Biden camp are pondering a 'Let's All Spank Donald' campaign? Meanwhile, in other news, our graham is demonstrating a Dannyesque level of lack of self awareness. Wondering why he's been banned for that? Jeez. Take some time to think things through sometimes. |
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Post by RAF on May 7, 2024 19:32:46 GMT
Netanyahu is an ethno-natiionalist. That has been his position since Max Hastings interviewed him around 40 years ago. He wants all Palestinians (regardless of religion - Palestinians are mainly Muslim or Christian) to be expelled from Gaza to Egypt; and from the West Bank to Jordan.
He does no accept the right of any Palestinian to live within what he considers to be Israel's land.
Posters should not use inflammatory language and certain words and phrases should be (and quite rightly are) verboten; but it is clear as day that Netanhayu wants an exclusive nation state across the whole of Israel and the Occupied Territories.
There are many examples throughout history of leaders who sought ethnic uniformity; for various stated reasons. But we should recognise that Netanyahu is one of them.
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Post by Rafwan on May 7, 2024 19:43:34 GMT
Doesn’t the definition say this COULD be an example, depending on context? So possibly not really automatic? (Don’t know who is supposed to decide though!) I don't think there is a lot of room for doubt over what graham wrote - do you? Just as a footnote, I prefer the Jerusalem declaration, as it more explicitly sets out that it is not antisemitic to criticise Israeli government policy and behaviour, but as Athena pointed out in this case it doesn't make a lot of difference. ://jerusalemdeclaration.org/ I don’t wish to offer a view on what Graham said. I agree with you about the Jerusalem Declaration and guideline 15 seems explicitly to exclude what Graham said as antisemitic. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on May 7, 2024 19:47:00 GMT
Delta
Labour lead narrows to seventeen points in our latest results.
Con 26% (+2)
Lab 43% (-1)
Lib Dem 10% (+2)
Reform 10% (-2)
SNP 3% (-)
Green 5% (-)
Other 2% (-1)
Fieldwork: 3rd-7th May 2024
Sample: 1,993 GB adults
(Changes from 26th-29th April 2024)
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Post by RAF on May 7, 2024 19:55:20 GMT
neilj Something to bear in mind from now until the date of the General Election is the extent (if any) to which the Tories can win back Reform UK voters. Both the Ukip and Brexit Party vote fell away somewhat when their voters were faced with the prospect of a potential Labour Government. Will this happen again?
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Post by graham on May 7, 2024 20:28:01 GMT
Graham's one and only useful role on this site,, as far as I'm concerned anyway, is to continue to comment on Scottish politics, particularly when he signals the drastic demise of the SNP. It is usually utter bollocks but it's the sort of bollocks that I want to hear 🤣👍 You reveal yourself to be a thoroughly offensive - and arrogant - human being. You are clearly far more ignorant than you recognise or have yet to come to terms with. I have no wish to communicate further with you. |
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Post by graham on May 7, 2024 20:39:08 GMT
The logic of that is that even when the Israeli Government is acting like the Nazis we are not permitted to say so.Effectively it gives the likes of Netanyahu and other extremists a blank cheque and perhaps goes some way to explaining how this regime has todate got away with so much. The suggestion that normal rules do not apply to Israel is likely to encourage AntiSemiticism . It really is a nonsense. There are plenty of other ways to express your displeasure at Israeli policy and behaviour, just leave the Nazis out of it. In fact, please do us all a favour and cut out the constant references to that era in other contexts as well. They are either way over the top or highly distasteful or both. The fact is that events do evoke memories of the Nazis and make it reasonable for people of insight to draw parallels. That was true of what occurred in the Bosnian war of the 1990s - well illustrated by the ethnic cleansing we saw at Sebrenica and elsewhere. That same ethnic cleansing is to be seen today in Gaza - and I find it surprising that so many appear so blind to the parallels which are there to see - whilst at the same time being so willing to bow to the standards of humbug and hypocrisy imposed by others - including the Western Establishment. Some of us may be keener than others to learn from the dark historical lessons of the Holocaust. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,580
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Post by pjw1961 on May 7, 2024 21:03:48 GMT
Netanyahu is an ethno-natiionalist. That has been his position since Max Hastings interviewed him around 40 years ago. He wants all Palestinians (regardless of religion - Palestinians are mainly Muslim or Christian) to be expelled from Gaza to Egypt; and from the West Bank to Jordan. He does no accept the right of any Palestinian to live within what he considers to be Israel's land. Posters should not use inflammatory language and certain words and phrases should be (and quite rightly are) verboten; but it is clear as day that Netanhayu wants an exclusive nation state across the whole of Israel and the Occupied Territories. There are many examples throughout history of leaders who sought ethnic uniformity; for various stated reasons. But we should recognise that Netanyahu is one of them. And that's how to comment without mentioning the Nazis. I am not sure Netanyahu has explicitly said those things, but some Israeli settler leaders certainly have in exactly those terms, and the always cautious BBC has described that as ethnic cleansing. |
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Post by mercian on May 7, 2024 21:04:33 GMT
How the world sees the covid pandemic this from worldometer. "As of April 13, 2024, the Coronavirus Tracker is no longer being updated due to the unfeasibility of providing statistically valid global totals, as the majority of countries have now stopped reporting." And just in case people might have forgotten those who caught covid were ten thousand times more likely to die if they were over 85 than if they were under 20. The under-20s will go eventually. If alec was still around he could blame some 85-year-old's death in 2090 on extremely long Covid. |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on May 7, 2024 21:33:32 GMT
The under-20s will go eventually. If alec was still around he could blame some 85-year-old's death in 2090 on extremely long Covid. |
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Post by mercian on May 7, 2024 21:34:57 GMT
With the Muslim vote and resurgence of Green/Left wing parties outside of Labour, it may be that there are specific constituencies where Labour may get a shock but can't see there being more than 10 like this and for every Muslim and Green/Left vote Labour are losing they are gaining more from Tories in the areas they most need to. A closer election Labour might need to be concerned and in the future I think they will find they have made a mistake alienating these groups, but nothing for them to worry about this year. I've said before that I can see a fundamental conflict between Labour's traditional socially progressive attitude and the views of those from other cultures many of whom have voted Labour in recent times. This isn't just Muslims but African Christians for instance. We saw in the local elections, particularly in the West Midlands that there was a very large vote for a man running mainly on a policy of protesting about Gaza, Kashmir and Khalistan. This was triggered by the conflict in Gaza, but we have also seen several iterations of Galloway mobilising this vote. I can't see how Labour can satisfy the extremely conservative (by western standards) social views of these voters while staying true to their own progressive instincts. |
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Post by mercian on May 7, 2024 22:18:08 GMT
I don't use those automated checkout things at all. My attitude is "why should I give my labour to Tesco or Sainsburys for free?". Haven't looked at it that way before. We used one yesterday. My wife's choice, not mine, but who am I to argue? When I'm on my own, I never use them. A). I HATE technology. Kindly un-invent it please someone  B). I see it as a supermatket's way of getting rid of people who need the work. No thank you. Related: My first job in the Met was deadly dull. Filing criminal records at NSY, day in day out. You had to put them in year order and then numerical order within that year. Thinking about it, "dull' is too exciting a word for it. Anyway, people had to do 1,000 of them a day. I killed the time by setting myself targets by seeing how many I could do. I got to 2,000 a day and was quietly chuffed with myself. I then went to a talk at my Labour Party Young Socilaists group in south-east London. A friend of mine was related to Jack Dash, an ex-dockers' leader and he gave an incredibly inspirational talk. What. A. Man. He must have been in his 80s at the time but he was still fiull of fire and fight - I loved him. He told a story of one of his workers who was the 40s or 50s equivalent of me - doing more than others just because he could. Jack told him to slow down as he was doing someone else out of a job. Again, I'd never thought of it like that but I took heed of what he said and slowed down after that. A very revealing post about the attitudes of the left and why they should be kept as far as possible from power. Your first point though jocular was the same as those left-wing heroes the Luddites. As for doing people out of a job, who wants to do a job that a machine can do better? If people had always had that attitude we'd still be going round in horses and carts (if we were rich). There was resistance to the telephone because it would put messenger boys out of a job, and much later resistance to STD (Subscriber Trunk Dialling for those too young to remember) because it would put telephone exchange operators out of a job. In reality technology might make some jobs redundant but new ones will come along as a result. Employment figures have been on a pretty steady upward path for 150 years or more. www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/uksectoraccounts/compendium/economicreview/april2019/longtermtrendsinukemployment1861to2018(see figures 5a and 5b). And slow down because you're doing someone out of a job? You're in competition with these people! No wonder productivity's so low in this country if many people share your attitude. Even Stalin's Russia had it's Stakhanovite movement! I've talked before about my NHS experiences, but it's a few years since I told this one (not about me). I worked at Cadbury's in the days when they did all their own printing of wrappers and labels and so on. A girl from that department went to work for Birmingham council. I'm not sure what her job was there, but her desk had a huge pile of folders that had built up because someone had been off long-term sick. She cleared the backlog in a week and was bored with nothing to do, so she cleared up everyone else's backlog in the following week. The other staff complained and so she was sacked! She could probably have done the work of everyone in the department on her own. She came back to Cadbury's where hard work was appreciated. She was (or should have been) a true working class hero. |
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Post by mercian on May 7, 2024 22:21:43 GMT
I don't really approve of all your little pictures, but this one did raise a chuckle. 👍 |
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Post by mercian on May 7, 2024 23:16:42 GMT
Ok. Last one for the night unless someone else posts while I'm writing this.
I've mentioned before that all my immediate neighbours are Asians of one description or another. They all seem to be decent people and try to do the right thing. I was amused today because soon after I started mowing my lawn at least 3 other mowers started up. Does this make me one of the 'community leaders' that politicians are so fond of talking about, or does it have to be based on race or religion?
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Post by Rafwan on May 7, 2024 23:24:11 GMT
mercianI am with Dave on this (obvs! Hurray for Jack Dash!). But I think you overlook one important feature of the supermarket checkout, and that is the few moments of social interaction with a known individual. It is prized and a tonic for many. Many people skip the automated service simply for the benefit of this (me for a kick-off). Sometimes people will stay in a particular queue just for a short chat with their favourite assistant ( to the bafflement of supervisors who want them in a shorter queue). Perhaps you see this as sad or small-minded? Don’t. That would be a big mistake.
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Post by ptarmigan on May 8, 2024 1:18:33 GMT
Was relieved Khan won London in the end - those rumours about a close contest and Hall victory had me slightly spooked even though it seemed fairly implausible (bizarre way to do expectation management from Cons though). I don't think there's any encouragement that the Tories can take from the locals - pretty miserable stuff from them and I wonder if there might have been an alternative narrative about Sunak's position had the sequence of results been different. By Friday we knew Houchen had won and we also had some false murmurings about Street possibly having won and London being a lot closer than anticipated. At that point things looked a bit rosier for Cons than what actually transpired. Then again, perhaps there was no great appetite to dispense with him at this late juncture - I don't think it would make much difference to their fortunes.
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Post by ptarmigan on May 8, 2024 1:20:21 GMT
I am no longer able to comment on PoliticalBetting.com. Access to this function has been withdrawn as a result of my having referred to 'Netanyahu's Einzatzgruppen.'A couple of guys 'flagged' it up to bring its attention to the Moderators. I feel this is far too censotius and that my comment was a fair and reasonable expression of opinion . In no sense was it AntiSemitic. Any views? One of the specific examples of antisemitism given in the IHRA definition is: "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." So an automatic red card. I believe all the major UK parties have now adopted that definition, so you would be expelled from any and all of them. holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitismI think it's worth saying that the IHRA definition is somewhat contentious and its adoption has been opposed by human rights groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch (as well as some Israeli groups) as they hold it's "often been used to wrongly label criticism of Israel as antisemitic, and thus chill and sometimes suppress, non-violent protest, activism and speech critical of Israel and/or Zionism, including in the US and Europe". Eg link. I'm not going to go to bat for invoking Nazism at every opportunity because I don't go in for it myself and I understand why people find it distasteful, but y'know, we're not talking about a politician making a few off colour remarks, we're talking about a state engaged in (or accused of, if people find that more comforting) violent occupation, war crimes, genocide and ethnic cleansing so in this instance I'm not sure it really merits all the handwringing on here. |
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Dave
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... I'm dreaming dreams, I'm scheming schemes, I'm building castles high ..
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Post by Dave on May 8, 2024 4:32:43 GMT
In response to my post Mercian said ... "A very revealing post about the attitudes of the left and why they should be kept as far as possible from power.
Your first point though jocular was the same as those left-wing heroes the Luddites"Whoa Mercian. Hang on a minute. I didn't say anything about me destroying 19th century farm machinery When I wrote that post, I did so hoping to not get the kind of triggered right-wing response that you gave me, because I knew that if I got a riposte such as yours then that individual would have missed the point and I'd have given a perpetually-annoyed type an opportunity to rant based on no knowledge of me at all. Had I explained it properly, the post would have gone on for too long. Besides, I had no need to explain myself further to people who really, really want to have their 1980s' style dying world-view have at least some life breathed into it. So I still don't feel the need to defend myself against assumptions such as yours. Suffice to say, if it helps your blood pressure to return to normal, if you knew me better, you'd know I've pulled my weight and more for over four decades of continuous working life and counting. So I'm more than comfortable with how I've gone about that working life. If you're imagining it to be something it wasn't, then I just don't care. Mercian added ... "slow down because you're doing someone out of a job? You're in competition with these people"!
See, to slightly mis-quote something I've just read ... this is a very revealing post about the attitudes of the right and why they should (and mercifully are about to) be kept as far as possible from power, in this country at least). 👍 |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 8, 2024 5:49:30 GMT
Someone seemed to object to the use of fascist in relation to the traitor in the U.S. and our beloved brexitanian regime.
"EARLY WARNING SIGNS OF FASCISM
Powerful and continuing nationalism
Disdain for human rights
Identification of enemies as a unifying cause
Rampant sexism
Controlled mass media
Obsession with national security
Religion and government intertwined
Corporate power protected
Labor power suppressed
Disdain for intellectual and the arts
Obsession with crime and punishment
Rampant cronyism and corruption"
Why?
Given that the maga cult displays all of these traits and the Tory regime at least ten of them it seems fair comment to me.
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on May 8, 2024 6:18:39 GMT
Ok. Last one for the night unless someone else posts while I'm writing this. I've mentioned before that all my immediate neighbours are Asians of one description or another. They all seem to be decent people and try to do the right thing. I was amused today because soon after I started mowing my lawn at least 3 other mowers started up. Does this make me one of the 'community leaders' that politicians are so fond of talking about, or does it have to be based on race or religion? The good news for you is that clearly none of your neighbours can be left wing, as based on your earlier post lefties would be far too lazy to mow the lawn. |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 8, 2024 6:28:21 GMT
"AstraZeneca has begun the worldwide withdrawal of its Covid-19 vaccine due to a “surplus of available updated vaccines” that target new variants of the virus.
The announcement follows the pharmaceutical company in March voluntarily withdrawing its European Union marketing authorisation, which is the approval to market a medicine in member states.
On 7 May, the European Medicines Agency issued a notice that the vaccine is no longer authorised for use."
Millions of deaths were undoubtedly prevented by vaccines particularly in the first year of use however with the reducing risk from covid and the availability of alternative vaccines the cost benefit given the astrazeneca vaccine did have very rare but potentially lethal side effects has changed.
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steve
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Post by steve on May 8, 2024 7:00:21 GMT
Imprisonment for Public Protection sentences were introduced by the Labour government in 2003 by Labour home secretary David Blunkett they allowed for imprisonment without a release date for any crime and lifetime recall for matters even of a trivial non criminal nature, Blunkett has recently acknowledged them as being his greatest mistake. In 2012 the government ( yes that government) abolished them at liberal democrat insistence as breaching human rights. However neither that government or , not surprisingly, subsequent Tory governments re-sentenced those convicted under IPP's and they remain either incarcerated or released under their draconian terms. Here's an interesting account of someone under an IPP who assisted to detain the terrorists in the London bridge killings of 2019. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/08/marc-conway-risked-his-life-to-stop-the-london-bridge-terror-attack-why-did-he-fear-being-sent-to-prison-for-it |
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Post by alec on May 8, 2024 7:00:36 GMT
steve - "And just in case people might have forgotten those who caught covid were ten thousand times more likely to die if they were over 85 than if they were under 20." Never really understood why lefties and others who profess to care constantly use the argument that horribly unpleasant but preventable deaths in people are nothing to worry about because they're old. And of course, they always slide past the fact that younger people with specific vulnerabilities - like blood cancer, for eg - are at a massively higher risk of the same fate because 'normal' people have decided it's just a bit too much effort to do the public health basics. This is a moral issue, and far too many people are willingly failing the test every day.
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Post by crossbat11 on May 8, 2024 7:22:59 GMT
Graham's one and only useful role on this site,, as far as I'm concerned anyway, is to continue to comment on Scottish politics, particularly when he signals the drastic demise of the SNP. It is usually utter bollocks but it's the sort of bollocks that I want to hear 🤣👍 You reveal yourself to be a thoroughly offensive - and arrogant - human being. You are clearly far more ignorant than you recognise or have yet to come to terms with. I have no wish to communicate further with you. You have no idea how relieved I am to read the last sentence. |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 8, 2024 7:24:46 GMT
alecCan you point out when I have said deaths among the elderly "were nothing to worry about". Good luck with that!
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B). I see it as a supermatket's way of getting rid of people who need the work. No thank you. 
