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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2024 10:27:56 GMT
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Post by shevii on May 7, 2024 10:43:22 GMT
My assessment of the local elections, albeit the usual caveats on reduced turnout, is that it hasn't changed my opinion that Labour are going to get a landslide majority and there's literally nothing to indicate otherwise despite what some commentators may flag up.
Although FPTP in the mayor elections was introduced by the Tories to give them the best chance of winning those elections it made it clear that voters who were leaning LD and Green would still do tactical votes for Labour (Khan in particular) and we can see that in London at least how those LD and Green voters increased when it was not the headline race under FPTP- ie you have a core of LD and Green voters that will vote tactically for Labour in a two horse race- not that we didn't know this already but we saw the extent of this. Now the total votes are in- LD were 145k Mayor and 215k list. Green were 145k mayor and 286k list. So there's the notional tactic vote in those figures and this was higher than in 2021.
I think the same applies to the locals as well. Where LD and Green put in the work and/or were the challengers and with no risk of letting a Tory in, they did well but beyond that people were still voting Labour to get rid of the Tories. Jamie Driscoll was a pretty bad result for the "left" (he's actually probably not a lot more left than someone like Burnham or at least is certainly an inclusive politician). This may reflect voters not liking him, low awareness of him but may also reflect voters playing safe with Labour when often they seem to like the more independent minded mayors.
With the Muslim vote and resurgence of Green/Left wing parties outside of Labour, it may be that there are specific constituencies where Labour may get a shock but can't see there being more than 10 like this and for every Muslim and Green/Left vote Labour are losing they are gaining more from Tories in the areas they most need to. A closer election Labour might need to be concerned and in the future I think they will find they have made a mistake alienating these groups, but nothing for them to worry about this year.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 7, 2024 10:57:34 GMT
100% agree. "I will build at least 10,000 council homes. As for right to buy – suspend it for new properties There’s no point us building houses if people sell them off cheaply to no public benefit. It’s like running a bath with no plug" Andy Burnham
Better to remove RtB from new tenants - not just new houses. Burnham seems a little unambitious. |
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Post by athena on May 7, 2024 11:16:23 GMT
I am no longer able to comment on PoliticalBetting.com. Access to this function has been withdrawn as a result of my having referred to 'Netanyahu's Einzatzgruppen.'... [] Any views? Inaccurate, unreasonable, deeply offensive, inflammatory - and definitely not conducive to constructive engagement with other contributors - but probably not anti-Semitic. The final guideline of the Jerusalem Declaration says 'Political speech does not have to be measured, proportional, tempered, or reasonable to be protected under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights and other human rights instruments... In general, the line between antisemitic and non-antisemitic speech is different from the line between unreasonable and reasonable speech.' Where I think you're getting close to the line is implying an equivalence between Israel's conscripted army (i.e. the overwhelming majority of the Jewish Israeli population of military age) and elite Nazi death squads - the first guideline of the Jerusalem Declaration states 'It is racist... to make sweeping negative generalizations about a given population. What is true of racism in general is true of antisemitism in particular.' |
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Post by leftieliberal on May 7, 2024 11:17:54 GMT
He is quite right - ScotGov abolished the right to buy 8 years ago for everyone except existing tenants who still had a right to buy, even though they hadn't exercised it.
Better to remove RtB from new tenants - not just new houses. Burnham seems a little unambitious. RtB is a Thatcherite policy; no different from selling off utilities at a discount. It should really be consigned to history. One big advantage of Councils owning housing is that it made it easier for Council tenants in one part of the country to move to another part of the country for employment because Councils had reciprocal arrangements. In the ward I used to represent there was even at least one Metropolitan Police-owned house (I know about this because they were keeping it empty, and wouldn't make it available to the Council, even on a short-term let). |
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Post by athena on May 7, 2024 11:36:52 GMT
sheviiThe new North East mayoralty is bigger than Driscoll's North of Tyne mayoralty was, which presumably hampered him. Granular counting area data might confirm this, but I can't be bothered to try and find them and I agree that he'd still have been subject to a Lab squeeze. Lab won't mind the dissemination of the spurious 'hung parliament territory' narrative, because it'll help them squeeze the minor parties and turn out their vote.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on May 7, 2024 11:58:38 GMT
I am no longer able to comment on PoliticalBetting.com. Access to this function has been withdrawn as a result of my having referred to 'Netanyahu's Einzatzgruppen.'A couple of guys 'flagged' it up to bring its attention to the Moderators. I feel this is far too censotius and that my comment was a fair and reasonable expression of opinion . In no sense was it AntiSemitic. Any views? Seeing as you're asking, you deserved to be banned. You must surely know by now from your similar postings on here, how offensive people find it to see you regularly use this kind of terminology when talking about politicians/ political parties that you don't like. To then use it in the context of Israel and it's clear that whatever reaction you get from us on here will be multiplied when these terms are used in the context of the Jewish state. That's so obvious that it shouldn't need saying. That's not to say that the actions of the Israeli government/ military can't and shouldn't be criticised in the strongest terms and many of us have done so here and elsewhere. But there is plentiful language that can be used to do that, without invoking terms that are synonymous with the fascist's attempts to eradicate the Jewish race. You must know this. That you choose to ignore what many of us have said to you about this kind of stuff just comes across as either incredibly blind to the obvious sensitivities of this situation, or else, I'm afraid to say, deliberately provocative. |
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Post by eotw on May 7, 2024 12:22:04 GMT
I am no longer able to comment on PoliticalBetting.com. Access to this function has been withdrawn as a result of my having referred to 'Netanyahu's Einzatzgruppen.'A couple of guys 'flagged' it up to bring its attention to the Moderators. I feel this is far too censotius and that my comment was a fair and reasonable expression of opinion . In no sense was it AntiSemitic. Any views? These sort of cheap, ill-conceived and untrue comments weaken and undermine legitimate criticism of the Israeli regime's actions. |
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Post by Mark on May 7, 2024 12:24:35 GMT
Charles III is a vastly wealthy, fantiasticly privileged, opinionated, short-tempered old man with an extremely narrow experience of life. Not so very different from a number of UKPR2 contributors in many ways... but because of who he is, his foibles, biases and failures of understanding are far from innocuous. That reminds me of a programme he did, or was featured on ages ago...I forget exactly what it was now, but, it was basically "(The then Prince) Charles gives tips on how to live a greener life and care for / protect the planet" Honestly, it was almost like a Harry Enfield take-off of him. It was all "well, you take the waste from your horses" and talking about mulching stuff. It was actually funny. From my limited knowledge, it seemed to be scientifically correct...and I'm sure he spent time researching the science behind what he does - and it's great that he cares about the environment, but, he did seem to be blissfully - and totally - unaware of his own privelidge. |
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Post by Mark on May 7, 2024 12:35:57 GMT
"Well good, because I'm not arguing for demographic collapse - quite the opposite. Yes, population growth is slowing, but we're not yet declining, and so we need a managed program of depopulation" Who shall we start with? How about people who don't put the toilet seat down in public urinals, or those who only start packing their shopping after they've paid for it at the check out they need to be depopulated. I do that at the trolley self-checkouts in Tesco; the reason being that any attempt to place bags in the bagging area causes the automated system to have an immediate nervous breakdown and stop working, so I have given up trying. Not at manned checkouts though, when I pack as the stuff is processed. Does that mean I get my sentence commuted to life imprisonment? I don't use those automated checkout things at all. My attitude is "why should I give my labour to Tesco or Sainsburys for free?". |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 7, 2024 12:37:46 GMT
The regime announces their latest promise kept.  |
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Post by crossbat11 on May 7, 2024 12:41:42 GMT
I am no longer able to comment on PoliticalBetting.com. Access to this function has been withdrawn as a result of my having referred to 'Netanyahu's Einzatzgruppen.'A couple of guys 'flagged' it up to bring its attention to the Moderators. I feel this is far too censotius and that my comment was a fair and reasonable expression of opinion . In no sense was it AntiSemitic. Any views? These sort of cheap, ill-conceived and untrue comments weaken and undermine legitimate criticism of the Israeli regime's actions. I agree with your view entirely but I think, like one or two other posters, you're being played by graham. He's not really interested in yours or anyone's views, he just wants us all to know that he made the comment and got banned for it. He probably feels very pleased with himself about it too. A while back, he chose to share another inane anecdote with us about being banned from a pub for using a certain archaic term to describe another customer. He pretended to be interested in our views about the pub's decision to bar him and the term he used. It's essentially a narcissistic attempt to seek attention and show off his, as he sees it anyway, trailblazing frankness. |
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Post by graham on May 7, 2024 12:51:31 GMT
I am no longer able to comment on PoliticalBetting.com. Access to this function has been withdrawn as a result of my having referred to 'Netanyahu's Einzatzgruppen.'... [] Any views? Inaccurate, unreasonable, deeply offensive, inflammatory - and definitely not conducive to constructive engagement with other contributors - but probably not anti-Semitic. The final guideline of the Jerusalem Declaration says 'Political speech does not have to be measured, proportional, tempered, or reasonable to be protected under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights and other human rights instruments... In general, the line between antisemitic and non-antisemitic speech is different from the line between unreasonable and reasonable speech.' Where I think you're getting close to the line is implying an equivalence between Israel's conscripted army (i.e. the overwhelming majority of the Jewish Israeli population of military age) and elite Nazi death squads - the first guideline of the Jerusalem Declaration states 'It is racist... to make sweeping negative generalizations about a given population. What is true of racism in general is true of antisemitism in particular.' That would be fair comment were I implying that such behaviour was typical of the IDF - but I was not doing that. The Einzazgruppen were certainly not typical of the vast majority of the Wehrmacht during World War 2 - only a very small number were involved in their atrocities.I don't think it unreasonable to draw parallels with certain elements of the IDF - and we know full well from statements made that certain extreme members of the current Israeli government are little better than Nazis. I would add that comparisons with Einzatzgruppen would strike me as appropriate in relation to current allegations being made against British Special Forces in Afghanistan which the authorities appear to have gone to great lengths to cover up.
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Post by graham on May 7, 2024 12:56:17 GMT
These sort of cheap, ill-conceived and untrue comments weaken and undermine legitimate criticism of the Israeli regime's actions. I agree with your view entirely but I think, like one or two other posters, you're being played by graham . He's not really interested in yours or anyone's views, he just wants us all to know that he made the comment and got banned for it. He probably feels very pleased with himself about it too. A while back, he chose to share another inane anecdote with us about being banned from a pub for using a certain archaic term to describe another customer. He pretended to be interested in our views about the pub's decision to bar him and the term he used. It's essentially a narcissistic attempt to seek attention and show off his, as he sees it anyway, trailblazing frankness. Utter gibberish - though you are entitled to your own fantasies.
I was never banned from a pub - though threatened with it were I to again use the word 'Dyke.' In protest I removed myself for several weeks - and to this day refuse to acknowledge the guy who misrepresented my comments
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Post by athena on May 7, 2024 13:06:17 GMT
crossbat11It appears you were correct about Graham.
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Post by Mark on May 7, 2024 13:07:03 GMT
I am no longer able to comment on PoliticalBetting.com. Access to this function has been withdrawn as a result of my having referred to 'Netanyahu's Einzatzgruppen.'A couple of guys 'flagged' it up to bring its attention to the Moderators. I feel this is far too censotius and that my comment was a fair and reasonable expression of opinion . In no sense was it AntiSemitic. Any views? Bloody hell, Graham! That is a reference to the SS in Nazi Germany. It is clearly anti-semitic. I really hope you don't post such stuff here. It is one thing to criticise the Isreali government or the IDF, but, to use such language is beyond the pale. |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on May 7, 2024 13:12:55 GMT
I do that at the trolley self-checkouts in Tesco; the reason being that any attempt to place bags in the bagging area causes the automated system to have an immediate nervous breakdown and stop working, so I have given up trying. Not at manned checkouts though, when I pack as the stuff is processed. Does that mean I get my sentence commuted to life imprisonment? I don't use those automated checkout things at all. My attitude is "why should I give my labour to Tesco or Sainsburys for free?". Haven't looked at it that way before. We used one yesterday. My wife's choice, not mine, but who am I to argue? When I'm on my own, I never use them. A). I HATE technology. Kindly un-invent it please someone  B). I see it as a supermatket's way of getting rid of people who need the work. No thank you. Related: My first job in the Met was deadly dull. Filing criminal records at NSY, day in day out. You had to put them in year order and then numerical order within that year. Thinking about it, "dull' is too exciting a word for it. Anyway, people had to do 1,000 of them a day. I killed the time by setting myself targets by seeing how many I could do. I got to 2,000 a day and was quietly chuffed with myself. I then went to a talk at my Labour Party Young Socilaists group in south-east London. A friend of mine was related to Jack Dash, an ex-dockers' leader and he gave an incredibly inspirational talk. What. A. Man. He must have been in his 80s at the time but he was still fiull of fire and fight - I loved him. He told a story of one of his workers who was the 40s or 50s equivalent of me - doing more than others just because he could. Jack told him to slow down as he was doing someone else out of a job. Again, I'd never thought of it like that but I took heed of what he said and slowed down after that. |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 7, 2024 13:19:13 GMT
ToryShill Laura Kuenessburg spent the weekend complaining that labour leader being a faux man of the people by turning up jacketless at football grounds rather than conventional photo shoots. Imagine her distress when she finds out where her party leader is today.  |
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Post by graham on May 7, 2024 13:21:45 GMT
I am no longer able to comment on PoliticalBetting.com. Access to this function has been withdrawn as a result of my having referred to 'Netanyahu's Einzatzgruppen.'A couple of guys 'flagged' it up to bring its attention to the Moderators. I feel this is far too censotius and that my comment was a fair and reasonable expression of opinion . In no sense was it AntiSemitic. Any views? Bloody hell, Graham! That is a reference to the SS in Nazi Germany. It is clearly anti-semitic. I really hope you don't post such stuff here. It is one thing to criticise the Isreali government or the IDF, but, to use such language is beyond the pale. Many have accused the Israelis of 'ethnic cleansing' in Gaza. We also saw that in Bosnia in the 1990s. Is that so far removed from the atrocities of the Einzatzgruppen? |
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Post by eotw on May 7, 2024 13:25:00 GMT
Where I think you're getting close to the line is implying an equivalence between Israel's conscripted army (i.e. the overwhelming majority of the Jewish Israeli population of military age) and elite Nazi death squads - the first guideline of the Jerusalem Declaration states 'It is racist... to make sweeping negative generalizations about a given population. What is true of racism in general is true of antisemitism in particular.' That would be fair comment were I implying that such behaviour was typical of the IDF - but I was not doing that. The Einzazgruppen were certainly not typical of the vast majority of the Wehrmacht during World War 2 - only a very small number were involved in their atrocities.I don't think it unreasonable to draw parallels with certain elements of the IDF - and we know full well from statements made that certain extreme members of the current Israeli government are little better than Nazis.
I know I shouldn't take the bait but I have. You need to check you facts on the Wehrmacht and it's role in the Holocaust: The murder of Jews was common knowledge in the Wehrmacht. During the retreat from the Soviet Union, German officers destroyed incriminating documents.[19] Wehrmacht soldiers actively worked together with the Schutzstaffel (SS) paramilitary death squads, the Einsatzgruppen, and participated in the mass killings such as at Babi Yar.[20] Wehrmacht officers considered the relationship with the Einsatzgruppen to be very close and almost cordial.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht#Outline_of_the_mythNot withstanding the above, I find your constant trivialising of the Holocaust by false equivalence nauseating. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 7, 2024 13:29:24 GMT
Bloody hell, Graham! That is a reference to the SS in Nazi Germany. It is clearly anti-semitic. I really hope you don't post such stuff here. It is one thing to criticise the Isreali government or the IDF, but, to use such language is beyond the pale. Many have accused the Israelis of 'ethnic cleansing' in Gaza. We also saw that in Bosnia in the 1990s. Is that so far removed from the atrocities of the Einzatzgruppen? You do love talking about this don't you? Personally I think bandying around this kind of language so easily devalues it's power and that's dangerous as we need it to shock when it's really needed. I shouldn't be pedantic about such things but it's Einsatz with an s. It just means deployment. Banality of evil and all that. |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 7, 2024 13:32:38 GMT
Graham's here.  |
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Post by graham on May 7, 2024 13:35:56 GMT
That would be fair comment were I implying that such behaviour was typical of the IDF - but I was not doing that. The Einzazgruppen were certainly not typical of the vast majority of the Wehrmacht during World War 2 - only a very small number were involved in their atrocities.I don't think it unreasonable to draw parallels with certain elements of the IDF - and we know full well from statements made that certain extreme members of the current Israeli government are little better than Nazis.
I know I shouldn't take the bait but I have. You need to check you facts on the Wehrmacht and it's role in the Holocaust: The murder of Jews was common knowledge in the Wehrmacht. During the retreat from the Soviet Union, German officers destroyed incriminating documents.[19] Wehrmacht soldiers actively worked together with the Schutzstaffel (SS) paramilitary death squads, the Einsatzgruppen, and participated in the mass killings such as at Babi Yar.[20] Wehrmacht officers considered the relationship with the Einsatzgruppen to be very close and almost cordial.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht#Outline_of_the_mythNot withstanding the above, I find your constant trivialising of the Holocaust by false equivalence nauseating. I am aware of that - but it is still reasonable to maintain that the overwelming majority of those who served in the German Army had no connection with and no knowledge of those crimes. I in no way seek to trivialise the Holocaust and see it as really one of the darkest chapters in human history.I feel utter contempt for David Irving and other Holocaust deniers. That,however, is perfectly consistent with asserting that there are individual Israelis who have much in common with the Nazis - and we find them in the current Israeli government.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2024 13:48:18 GMT
Can we all ignore this now please?
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Post by alec on May 7, 2024 15:20:04 GMT
@fecklessmiser - "Can we all ignore this now please?" Yes! What is it we're meant to be ignoring, btw? ********* On the local election results: I think Labour will be deliriously happy with these. It couldn't be any better. They've secured a range of stonking results, seen the Lib Dems also score well in their strong areas, and have hard evidence of tactical anti Tory voting the likes of which we haven't seen since the 1990s. They didn't have it all their own way though, with the anticipated Gaza effect alongside a drift to the Greens in some areas, highlighting a modest threat from the left. But Sunak rides to the rescue once again. The talk of hung parliaments is gold dust to Starmer, as I think athena flagged up. He'll love this, and this is where a biased media sometimes helps you if it is biased and stupid. Of course there won't be a hung parliament, but what better for Starmer than the media talking this up? It will help prevent too many peeling away, and helps contain the boredom of expectation. On top of that, the Tory Madness embodied by Suella herself continues to shine. She genuinely thinks being more right wing is essential for their survival, and serves to further illustrate the choice ahead. The week couldn't have been better for Labour. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 7, 2024 15:53:27 GMT
I am no longer able to comment on PoliticalBetting.com. Access to this function has been withdrawn as a result of my having referred to 'Netanyahu's Einzatzgruppen.'A couple of guys 'flagged' it up to bring its attention to the Moderators. I feel this is far too censotius and that my comment was a fair and reasonable expression of opinion . In no sense was it AntiSemitic. Any views? One of the specific examples of antisemitism given in the IHRA definition is: "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." So an automatic red card. I believe all the major UK parties have now adopted that definition, so you would be expelled from any and all of them. holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 7, 2024 17:09:53 GMT
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 7, 2024 17:30:17 GMT
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 7, 2024 17:52:13 GMT
Given that many of them were slave holders, I expect they preferred to do the whipping: "A majority of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and nearly half of the delegates to the Constitutional Convention owned slaves. Four of the first five presidents of the United States were slave owners." |
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Post by graham on May 7, 2024 18:21:50 GMT
I am no longer able to comment on PoliticalBetting.com. Access to this function has been withdrawn as a result of my having referred to 'Netanyahu's Einzatzgruppen.'A couple of guys 'flagged' it up to bring its attention to the Moderators. I feel this is far too censotius and that my comment was a fair and reasonable expression of opinion . In no sense was it AntiSemitic. Any views? One of the specific examples of antisemitism given in the IHRA definition is: "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." So an automatic red card. I believe all the major UK parties have now adopted that definition, so you would be expelled from any and all of them. holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitismThe logic of that is that even when the Israeli Government is acting like the Nazis we are not permitted to say so.Effectively it gives the likes of Netanyahu and other extremists a blank cheque and perhaps goes some way to explaining how this regime has todate got away with so much. The suggestion that normal rules do not apply to Israel is likely to encourage AntiSemiticism . It really is a nonsense. |
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B). I see it as a supermatket's way of getting rid of people who need the work. No thank you. 
