Danny
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Post by Danny on May 5, 2024 7:48:50 GMT
There was no mainstream party advocating or even contemplating leaving the EU even if they used to blame it for anything they thought would be unpopular. This was despite a large proportion of the electorate wanting to leave. This went on for decades, so given the chance the great British public gave the traditional two-fingered salute to the lot of them. Great! Wikipedia reports that from 2013 to 2016 a steady number around 40% said they wanted to leave. You could call 40% a large proportion, but it was never a majority, what with 20% dont knows who therefore did not have a wish to leave. There has never been a majority wish to leave throughout the campaign. The whole leave campaign was about presenting a binary choice and forcing people to take a side, so as to get more voting to leave than voting to remain. In a situation where 60% were content with the status quo, its very questionable why the enormous upheval of leaving the Eu should have been permitted to happen. Whereas we now seem to have a rejoin majority? The best time to rejoin would be right now while we are still essentially run under EU rules. (though even a con government has found it very difficut to change that because its obviously more sensible to conform to EU regulations for trade purposes) |
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Post by Danny on May 5, 2024 7:51:35 GMT
Front page of the Mail on Sunday, King Charles opinion poll and what Angela Rayner may or may not have done 10 years ago In fairness it's been a slow news week, it's not as if anything else has happened over the last couple of days... Tough that the king was required to get cancer just to disract public attention from the government's election performance. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 5, 2024 7:56:26 GMT
What can be taken from the last few days I think is in general the Liberal democrats and Labour were strongest where they need to be for general election success. There are a few areas where the right anti Tory choice for the less than obsessively partisan isn't clear. Unfortunately I live in one. How to vote in an area where at the last general election the Lib dems were in third but subsequently the neighbouring constituency has switched from Tory to lib dem on the other side of the constituency it's been lib dem since 2017, where the local councils are now overwhelmingly lib dem , with Labour trailing far behind, where the new constituency next to ours to the north is likely to go lib dem and where on Thursday the only local election we had , that for the PCC saw the Lib dems in clear second place. It's a quandary fortunately not shared by many. Have to wait for the election to be called, sooner the better. Now this is where I think how well labour are doing on the day will matter. In a situation like this where I believed the local result would not affect the final outcome, I would be tempted to have a punt on the third placed libs. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 5, 2024 8:03:54 GMT
The new Mayors were once described as glorified transport commissioners. Not completely fair, but has some truth. That would explain why Houchen bought an airport and a seaport. |
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Post by crossbat11 on May 5, 2024 8:25:28 GMT
For those missing the ROC element on here I might suggest a visit to Conservative home ( remember to take an antiseptic bath before return though). I did so this morning. They are in a bad way and I ended up feeling like a ghoulish rubber necker ! Fun though ! I thought there was a gentleman's agreement about not intruding into private grief? An agreement observed in principle but rarely in practice! |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 5, 2024 8:26:07 GMT
nickpoole Very constructive. Vote for the Brexit lite party because they're not as shit as the Tories. You do grasp that the Liberal cooperative philosophy has been around longer than Labour. Writing off the 25% of the electorate who support progressive parties other than Labour as some sort of splinter group that just have to be insulted back into obedience isn't perhaps the best policy. Under fptp no doubt the Labour party can get a massive majority, based on minority support , that it doesn't ,based on its support levels, deserve. If we had a fairer voting system your partisan nonsense wouldn't be heard as often. As it is those of us who would prefer our vote to count and would prefer actually to vote for someone else are being forced to choose between this corrupt shambles and a party that at least consists of generally well meaning adults. I've spent the entire weekend being complimentary about The Labour party success, it's attitudes like yours that makes it more difficult, fortunately most of the Labour affiliates here are less partisan and more rational. There were however plenty with simple attitudes in my local Labour party, one of the reasons I'm no longer a member of the party. The notion of tactical voting appears to have alluded you totally.
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Post by leftieliberal on May 5, 2024 8:26:43 GMT
Front page of the Mail on Sunday, King Charles opinion poll and what Angela Rayner may or may not have done 10 years ago In fairness it's been a slow news week, it's not as if anything else has happened over the last couple of days... Are we in the silly season already? It seems like we had elections only a few days ago.  |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 5, 2024 8:46:21 GMT
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Post by crossbat11 on May 5, 2024 8:47:01 GMT
Perhaps not in terms of governance. There are clear differences in respect of philosophy, emphasis and general approach, though, per their speeches following the declaration. Time will, as ever, tell. The main difference I am aware of is that Parker has pledged to bring buses into public control. The new Mayors were once described as glorified transport commissioners. Not completely fair, but has some truth. With these round of mayoral elections occurring in a general election year, they became high profile contests with national political attention and significance, but I wonder if the role is becoming inflated beyond its real importance in terms of the actual influence it has over the way we are governed locally. It certainly affords the holder of the office genuine political weight and guarantees them a political platform, but isn't much of it about symbolism and civic representation rather than the ability to do very much? Mayors like Burnham, Khan, Houchen and Street certainly milk/milked the roles, and maybe were/are very effective Westminster lobbyists on behalf of their cities, albeit Street and Houchen were favoured by having a Tory government to assist and facilitate them, but what are/were they actually delivering? Aren't the local councils, funded partially by central government, the real deliverers and developers of policy in their regions and aren't they in hoc to central government departments too in terms of their scope to deliver? In other words, aren't the Mayors sort of floating around in the gaps between local authorities and national government, fronting often gimmicky projects and claiming credit for infrastructure initiatives that were going to happen anyway? Maybe, and I admit I'm no expert on Mayoral powers and spheres of influence, they are more important than I think in terms of what they do. Burnham and Khan might benefit from a Labour Government that is committed to further devolution and decentralisation. This Tory Government is very centralised and suspicious of devolved powers. I suspect they attempted to undermine Khan in London. Maybe Burnham too. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 5, 2024 8:51:01 GMT
Rwanda spokesperson interviewee says she is confident Rwanda will be able to take as many refugees as the Uk is able to send during the lifetime of the agreement.
I happened to see a second hand book yesterday titled, "Rwanda, the land God forgot".
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Post by thylacine on May 5, 2024 8:52:06 GMT
For those missing the ROC element on here I might suggest a visit to Conservative home ( remember to take an antiseptic bath before return though). I did so this morning. They are in a bad way and I ended up feeling like a ghoulish rubber necker ! Fun though ! I thought there was a gentleman's agreement about not intruding into private grief? An agreement observed in principle but rarely in practice! "Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be defeated."Sun Tzu . I suspect he was no gentleman 🤣 |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 5, 2024 8:55:28 GMT
Danny
As the agreement commits them to accept between 0 and 5000 over five years they are probably correct. There's available housing for around 300
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Post by jib on May 5, 2024 8:58:06 GMT
An interesting set of results, and encouraging for the Labour Party. The Green Party can be very pleased with increasing their vote and representation. Fairly clear the anti-ULEZ "flash" campaign in Uxbridge (2023) was really a bit of a freak result.
As usual the caveat on low turnouts, 20-30% at these elections will probably be 65-70% in the general election.
A resilient Tory vote shows the battle is between Tory and Labour / SNP in most locations, a few interesting local contests but quite telling the Tories were not routed, and talk of a rout is wishful to say the least. A good proportion of the 40% missing electorate who will turn out will vote Tory, and it will be West Midlands style knife-edge in a lot of the marginals, although I'm confident it will be the Tory asking for a recount! Tight margins, use your vote wisely!
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 5, 2024 9:24:17 GMT
For those missing the ROC element on here I might suggest a visit to Conservative home ( remember to take an antiseptic bath before return though). I did so this morning. They are in a bad way and I ended up feeling like a ghoulish rubber necker ! Fun though ! I see Mirriam Cates MP believes we need to return to puritain views on sexual roles and get rid of all this nonsense about sexual or indeed ethnic diversity. Return to the idea that everyone should be the same and hold 'traditional' values. I cannot but think most of her constituency, wherever it is, would think she is wrong. Another article arguing Britain is lucky to have GP news representing the right, opposed by Channel nnews representing the left. Which begs the question whether Channel 4 really does represent the left, or as I think they would argue seeks to give balanced views from both sides. Which however the author believes is actually a heavily left leaning view. John Redwood MP, railing against the tyrany of allowing the OBR to comment on the viability of government policy. He criticises the bank of England for allowing inflation to hit 11% despite their target of 2%, forgetting that it reached 25% in the Thatcher administration. Ironically too, that it was lowest in the intervening labour administration. He seems to be blaming failure by government to carry out its stated policies on powers to actually do this having been devolved to quangos. Which perhaps misses the point that those running said quangos are appointed by government, and its has 14 years to pick who it wants. An article by Peter Franklin arguing Sunak must go now, obviously not to be replaced by someone like truss. But someone who would get immigration under control. Criticises labour for lack of new ideas, but doesnt really propose any others for con. Does however recommend the nick Timothy and Gavin Rice book on the future of conservatism, including the need for an interventionist state restoring the british industrial base. In linked articles Franklin expands a bit and mentions other conservatives seeking a way ahead, including heseltine and Gauke arguing for rejoin. Criticises conservative inaction to solve the housing crisis. All sounds very traditionally socialist, so not much like labour? Alexander Bowen discusses the merits of whether britain owes $45 trillion to India as wealth extracted during the Raj, or $1.7 sextillion to the state of Florence for defaulted historic debts. |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 5, 2024 9:29:20 GMT
So, Sky are making a big play on the PNV showing Labour falling short. They have stopped highlighting the caveats, and from my understanding it does not include data for the big metropolitan areas like London, nor Wales and Scotland (its based on the Local Council Elections not mayoral votes). Add 1% lead to Labour for each of those you get to an approx 10% lead at least - possibly with a more efficient vote distribution, this would give Labour their OM.
Perhaps SKY are taking their line as its better copy, but its not a particularly reliable or accurate analysis.
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Post by RAF on May 5, 2024 9:35:03 GMT
The jury is still put on whether Labour can win a majority at the next election. Labour did well in many areas on Thursday and thd strategy of targeting the White working class vote in post-industrial towns (to the degree there were elections there) appears to be working.
However, this close to a GE, you would expect the main Opposition party to be a larger beneficiary of the Government's weakness. What we saw was the Tories losing votes to everyone else. This is part of a wider issue for Labour. Whilst there is great desire to kick the Tories out, there is no great enthusiasm for the Labour Party, its leader or its direction (as numerous polls have shown).
And it appears from comments by Lqbour councillors and pundits during the local election results programmes that they have no desire to examine why this might be or to do anything about it.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 5, 2024 9:36:47 GMT
As usual the caveat on low turnouts, 20-30% at these elections will probably be 65-70% in the general election. This is often stated, but what is the evidence it actually makes much difference? If both parties are equaly affected by by election complacency, there is no reason to think it would be? wasnt there an alternative proposed explanation for that? Was it to do with ethnicity? I noticed some tories calling this a typical mid term result, which is absurd sonce we are six months from an election which everyone is expecting. Its true labour support has been falling back for some time, as you might expect as the election comes closer. Only con support has not been recovering, but falling faster than labour! Its getting very late to see signs of a con recovery. Its equally credible to argue that in the final six months the drain of conservative support may accelerate, giving lab an even bigger lead. That is the current trend. It is the case that in most election cycles support swings away from the incumbent mid term and back at the end. But its also arguable that this average masks the exceptions to the rule. That at certain times voters become utterly disgusted with a government and then their suport just carries on collapsing. |
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Post by athena on May 5, 2024 9:40:23 GMT
I feel for Street; clearly a dedicated, well-intentioned and sincere chap. How he can reconcile his mainstream conservatism with the current Conservative party, leadership and its direction of travel is rather trickier to ascertain, though. Like you I find this a bit of a mystery. I can only conclude that politics is a lot more tribal than us spectators realise. If you're an MP, councillor, mayor, or even an activist you spend a lot of time working with people in your party, so you get to know and like a lot of them on a personal level, you accumulate a history of reciprocal aid and become enmeshed in a network that is social as well as professional. Defecting or leaving would feel like a betrayal of people who are friends as well as colleagues. You know your views haven't changed and you reckon that people like you ought to belong in your party, so you stay.
The thought of all the hoops you'd have to jump through to continue or resume a political career in another party is probably also a pretty effective deterrent to defection for anyone who still holds office. The tribal thing might also make some people wary about the welcome they'd receive if they switched sides ('Tory scum'...). If Dan Poulter had wanted a Lab seat at the next GE (and for all I know he may have done), it's not hard to imagine Labourites questioning his motivation for defecting, the sincerity of his conversion to the cause and why he should be offered candidacy ahead of all the good Lab people who've worked hard for the party through the long, thankless years of opposition. I'm guessing that crossbat11 leafleted for Lab during the Corbyn era, even if less frequently and less enthusiastically than he does now, with the scent of victory in his nostrils. Not that I'm suggesting he's not perfectly capable of enjoying a convivial jar or two with members of the opposing tribe away from the campaign trail - nor that he couldn't come up with some choice epithets for some of them. |
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Post by John Chanin on May 5, 2024 9:41:53 GMT
So, Sky are making a big play on the PNV showing Labour falling short. They have stopped highlighting the caveats, and from my understanding it does not include data for the big metropolitan areas like London, nor Wales and Scotland (its based on the Local Council Elections not mayoral votes). Add 1% lead to Labour for each of those you get to an approx 10% lead at least - possibly with a more efficient vote distribution, this would give Labour their OM.
Perhaps SKY are taking their line as its better copy, but its not a particularly reliable or accurate analysis. The PNV simply adds estimates for areas that didn't vote this time to actual votes for those that did. It cannot be simply translated to a General Election, because of course votes at local elections are much higher for Liberals, Greens, and there are many successful independents. It is politically illiterate, and generally innumerate, to use PNV in this way. PNV is best seen in comparison to previous years' calculations of the same figure, although even there the influence of votes for other than Labour and Conservative varies from year to year, as does their take from either Labour or Conservative. There is of course serious commentary based on this figure, although not from the idiots at Sky, who seem to have little idea about what local elections are for. Their whole coverage has been risible. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 5, 2024 9:47:23 GMT
The jury is still out on whether Labour can win a majority at the next election. Well obviously it is because it has yet to be held. But in a statistical sense and barring 'events', its as certain a labour win as it is possible to predict. I agree with you, labour is not very popular either and this shows in local results. However, it gained more than anyone else and had the biggest total of any party. Given we have FPP election rules, thats a cast iron win in a general election which weeds out the smaller parties, quite deliberately. Interesting there was some very socialist policy suggestions on conservative home, the sort of thing May might have been happy with. But not the majority of the party now. Again, you forget that FPP only allows you to vote for whats on offer between the two leading candidates, and that means the labour party will be more socialist than con, even if some con think their whole party would be better off as a socialist one. But realistically thats a very big jump incredibly hard for them to make, even if it might work. Funny if in the forthcoming out of office turmoil a rout in this election might see con reborn as the party of the left. A switchover akin to what happened to the traditional US democrats and republicans. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 5, 2024 9:53:06 GMT
So, Sky are making a big play on the PNV showing Labour falling short. They have stopped highlighting the caveats, and from my understanding it does not include data for the big metropolitan areas like London, nor Wales and Scotland (its based on the Local Council Elections not mayoral votes). Add 1% lead to Labour for each of those you get to an approx 10% lead at least - possibly with a more efficient vote distribution, this would give Labour their OM.
Perhaps SKY are taking their line as its better copy, but its not a particularly reliable or accurate analysis. It is the new official Tory straw to clutch. It came up on Laura K's programme and then again on the BBC eastern region politics show. It went unchallenged by the presenters and the other party reps preferred to take the "we take no vote for granted" line, which is doubtless sensible politics, but leaves viewers uniformed about the psephological realities. I doubt I need to explain on here the difference between local election and general election patterns given JamesE has done it so well and so often. Put simply, in a GE the Lib Dem and "Others" shares will be lower, to the benefit of Labour as the main "anybody but Conservative" party. The Con vote may also be a bit higher - picking up some Ind voters (Reform hardly featured at local level) but to nowhere near the same extent. This has been a consistent pattern for years. And yet one Conservative got away with going as far as saying the PNV showed "the opinion polls are wrong". |
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Post by athena on May 5, 2024 9:54:11 GMT
And I think we did finally speak in 2016. I bet they don't ask us again.  And you certainly did, though the people of Scotland, Gibraltar and Ireland, for whom you also chose to speak, differed. Still, forgiveness and understanding can still prevail Be fair. mercian marked his X just as you and I marked ours; it wasn't his clan who set the terms of the referendum. That would be the old Etonian in Downing Street at the time, recently made a Lord so that he could take charge of foreign policy (still can't believe how many people think that was a great idea). If a supermajority had been required we'd still be members, although if we used the Australian double majority system we'd still have left (for anyone interested Australia has had 5/13 referenda where there was a commonwealth majority, but fewer than 4 state majorities; some of the double majorities were quite small at commonwealth level). I was a Remain voter but I do think that in 2016 we reaped the consequence of decades of governments (Lab, Coalition and Tory) ignoring the left-behind, which was easier to do because of FPTP (shout out to those who defend FPTP on the grounds that it sanitises Westminster against the likes of Rassemblement National, AfD and Golden Dawn) and because a lot of them don't vote, having given up on government ever doing anything to improve their life chances (for which I don't blame them, so don't go quoting all the wonderful things New Lab did that you think the Brexity ingrates fail to appreciate, take a look at regional inequality and IMD data in 2010). I hope that Starmer will do significantly better by them than Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron, May, Johnson or Sunak, but I won't be holding my breath. |
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Post by athena on May 5, 2024 10:01:14 GMT
The new Mayors were once described as glorified transport commissioners. Not completely fair, but has some truth. Hmm. I don't know whether to blame Mayor Coppard or the coalition of numpties in City Hall for wasting money dotting cycle stores all over my neighbourhood. I'm a keen cyclist, I favour encouraging people to cycle, but this was daft. The stores are useless to people who cycle to the local shops and redundant for local residents, who keep their bikes on their own property, in a house or shed. Conceivably they might be useful to HMOs, but we don't have many of those and the better option - which wouldn't have reduced on-street parking, which was already at a premium - would have been to offer to instal them in the backyards/gardens of HMOs. They might also be useful in other areas of the city where there are more properties with limited or no outside space (I'm familiar with several such areas and they don't have a single cycle store amongst them).
I bet we've got them because the middle class voters in our area respond to council surveys and like the idea of active travel, despite getting in their cars for any journey that would take more than 10 mins on foot.
Even a quick look at some basic local data would have shown councillors or the mayor's office that my area shouldn't have been a priority for cycle stores; this kind of thing annoys me. |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 5, 2024 10:05:33 GMT
The PNV simply adds estimates for areas that didn't vote this time to actual votes for those that did. It cannot be simply translated to a General Election, because of course votes at local elections are much higher for Liberals, Greens, and there are many successful independents. It is politically illiterate, and generally innumerate, to use PNV in this way. PNV is best seen in comparison to previous years' calculations of the same figure, although even there the influence of votes for other than Labour and Conservative varies from year to year, as does their take from either Labour or Conservative. There is of course serious commentary based on this figure, although not from the idiots at Sky, who seem to have little idea about what local elections are for. Their whole coverage has been risible. , do you have a link that explains the PNV methodology you can share? I have been looking but cant find one, only high level articles. Thanks! |
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Post by nickpoole on May 5, 2024 10:11:10 GMT
nickpoole Very constructive. Vote for the Brexit lite party because they're not as shit as the Tories. You do grasp that the Liberal cooperative philosophy has been around longer than Labour. Writing off the 25% of the electorate who support progressive parties other than Labour as some sort of splinter group that just have to be insulted back into obedience isn't perhaps the best policy. Under fptp no doubt the Labour party can get a massive majority, based on minority support , that it doesn't ,based on its support levels, deserve. If we had a fairer voting system your partisan nonsense wouldn't be heard as often. As it is those of us who would prefer our vote to count and would prefer actually to vote for someone else are being forced to choose between this corrupt shambles and a party that at least consists of generally well meaning adults. I've spent the entire weekend being complimentary about The Labour party success, it's attitudes like yours that makes it more difficult, fortunately most of the Labour affiliates here are less partisan and more rational. There were however plenty with simple attitudes in my local Labour party, one of the reasons I'm no longer a member of the party. The notion of tactical voting appears to have alluded you totally. Fortunately next time out I expect the LD vote to be very isolated and Lab will gain everywhere else. Sp nobody much will have to vote for LD if they don't actively want to. Like you. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 5, 2024 10:23:53 GMT
nickpoole Very constructive. Vote for the Brexit lite party because they're not as shit as the Tories. You do grasp that the Liberal cooperative philosophy has been around longer than Labour. Writing off the 25% of the electorate who support progressive parties other than Labour as some sort of splinter group that just have to be insulted back into obedience isn't perhaps the best policy. Under fptp no doubt the Labour party can get a massive majority, based on minority support , that it doesn't ,based on its support levels, deserve. If we had a fairer voting system your partisan nonsense wouldn't be heard as often. As it is those of us who would prefer our vote to count and would prefer actually to vote for someone else are being forced to choose between this corrupt shambles and a party that at least consists of generally well meaning adults. I've spent the entire weekend being complimentary about The Labour party success, it's attitudes like yours that makes it more difficult, fortunately most of the Labour affiliates here are less partisan and more rational. There were however plenty with simple attitudes in my local Labour party, one of the reasons I'm no longer a member of the party. The notion of tactical voting appears to have alluded you totally. Fortunately next time out I expect the LD vote to be very isolated and Lab will gain everywhere else. Sp nobody much will have to vote for LD if they don't actively want to. Like you. While obviously preferring Labour MPs I'd still far prefer a few LDs especially in areas of the south and west where Labour has little ground organisation instead of those seats staying tory which is the only other alternative. |
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Post by EmCat on May 5, 2024 10:23:55 GMT
Front page of the Mail on Sunday, King Charles opinion poll and what Angela Rayner may or may not have done 10 years ago In fairness it's been a slow news week, it's not as if anything else has happened over the last couple of days... I'm reminded of the joke where Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Napoleon have all been transported to see the May Day parade in Red Square. (back in the days when it was a bit more than a single tank, obviously) Seeing the mass of soldiers marching past, Alexander marvels "If I had had an army like this, then I would have conquered much more than I ever did!" With row after row of tanks, Caesar remarks "If I had chariots like these, the Roman Empire would have expanded even further" Napoleon looks up from his copy of Pravda and says "If I had newspapers like this, no one would ever have heard of Waterloo" |
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Post by somerjohn on May 5, 2024 10:30:53 GMT
Athena:"I was a Remain voter but I do think that in 2016 we reaped the consequence of decades of governments (Lab, Coalition and Tory) ignoring the left-behind, which was easier to do because of FPTP"
I'm sure there's a lot of truth in that, but for me it just underlines the sadness of the event. Hard done by people voted to hit back against an unfair system, having been assured that brexit would make the country better off, or at least no worse off (£350m for the NHS). For years the EU had been successfully scapegoated by rightwing media (and some Bennites) as the source of many of our woes, so voting to leave while giving the toffs a bloody nose was an apparent win-win.
That delusion has slowly crumbled as reality has prevailed. But as brexiteers delight in proclaiming, there's no going back, and no real political will to do so, at least in less than a decade or so.
If membership of the EU is indeed a necessary condition for our recovery, but it ain't going to happen, then the story of the next government will be of failure. Failure to fulfil the hopes placed in it; failure to arrest decline; failure to address the deep structural and constitutional problems facing the country. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I don't suppose many Labour-inclined posters on here will agree with that gloomy analysis, or thank me if I continue in this vein once Labour is in power.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 5, 2024 10:51:14 GMT
Front page of the Mail on Sunday, King Charles opinion poll and what Angela Rayner may or may not have done 10 years ago In fairness it's been a slow news week, it's not as if anything else has happened over the last couple of days... I'm reminded of the joke where Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Napoleon have all been transported to see the May Day parade in Red Square. (back in the days when it was a bit more than a single tank, obviously) Seeing the mass of soldiers marching past, Alexander marvels "If I had had an army like this, then I would have conquered much more than I ever did!" With row after row of tanks, Caesar remarks "If I had chariots like these, the Roman Empire would have expanded even further" Napoleon looks up from his copy of Pravda and says "If I had newspapers like this, no one would ever have heard of Waterloo" Napoleon kind of did. There were regular issues of "Grand Armee Bulletins" reporting on events from the front and which led to a French saying "to lie like a Bulletin" (mentir comme un Bulletin). |
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Post by leftieliberal on May 5, 2024 11:32:46 GMT
As usual the caveat on low turnouts, 20-30% at these elections will probably be 65-70% in the general election. The turnout was 40% in London, quite typical for recent Mayoral elections, as not as unrepresentative as you think. |
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