|
|
Post by mercian on May 4, 2024 22:49:46 GMT
@grahan I think we should let bygones be bygones. Currently in the wilds of the Derbyshire Dales "preparing" for a family wedding on Monday. Internet down in this isolated part of the country. Can anybody tell me the results of the London and West Midlands Mayoral elections? I can tell you that the Blues were relegated.  EDIT: I must admit I didn't realise even stuff like telephones had reached the Derbyshire Dales yet. |
|
|
|
Post by shevii on May 4, 2024 22:54:14 GMT
Only change in London in the end was one less Tory and one Reform getting a seat.
|
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,125
|
Post by domjg on May 4, 2024 22:55:42 GMT
God it was even worse than I remembered. I think my brain has blocked that period out of my mind. |
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on May 4, 2024 22:59:29 GMT
That response suggests that you think EU membership shouldn't be reconsidered because racist thugs who want to "keep control" would just repeat their previous offences, so we shouldn't annoy them. I didn't say that at all. I'm just glad things have moved on from the binary choices then.
The same applied to the 2014 Referendum, where UKGov rejected the suggestion of a set of options on Scotland's position in the UK.
Politicians force the electorate to make binary choices (and a UK GE is usually one of those scenarios), but that is to their advantage, not the electorate's.
Prohibiting nuance in any debate, by presenting choices as absolute opposites, encourages extreme positions. That extremists can feel justified in then violently attacking those that they feel that they have defeated, shouldn't surprise anyone. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 4, 2024 23:11:40 GMT
Apologies in advance for a brief sporting reference, perhaps particularly to pjw1961. In my defence, I am hardly a serial offender in this context. The drama in the WM and London mayoral races vied bewilderingly in my head with events in the County Championship at Taunton, where Somerset beat Essex by 3 wickets inside two days. Essex are a consistently good team, whereas Somerset are capable of occasional brilliance, but equally prone to brittle batting and ineffectual bowling. Anyhoo, after bowling out Essex cheaply twice, (a surprising performance in itself), and an obligatory rubbish first innings themselves, they were left needing 167 to win. That should have been fairly straightforward, but as they were all out for 128 in the first innings, I was expecting another skittling. Remarkably, they just managed to crawl over the line, making 170-7. I'm sure Essex will be livid, beaten in two days by the carrot crunchers. Good effort by the Somerset boys, though. |
|
|
|
Post by mercian on May 4, 2024 23:16:04 GMT
oldnat"Prohibiting nuance in any debate, by presenting choices as absolute opposites, encourages extreme positions. That extremists can feel justified in then violently attacking those that they feel that they have defeated, shouldn't surprise anyone." Something else that is often overlooked is that if there is little apparent difference between the only parties likely to win (and I appreciate this is particularly an English problem), people slightly outside that apparent consensus view will get frustrated especially if it goes on for decades. This was one of the big drivers of the Brexit vote IMO. There was no mainstream party advocating or even contemplating leaving the EU even if they used to blame it for anything they thought would be unpopular. This was despite a large proportion of the electorate wanting to leave. This went on for decades, so given the chance the great British public gave the traditional two-fingered salute to the lot of them. Great!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 4, 2024 23:33:26 GMT
Wow, who knew polling matters could be so rivetting, and in real time? High drama indeed. I was resigned to Street hanging on, virtually until the end, when Beth Rigby, possibly inadvertently, said that LAB had won Sandwell by 1,500, which led me to think, from my convoluted mental arithmetic on the figures that she had earlier given, that they would still be c10,000 short. I feel for Street; clearly a dedicated, well-intentioned and sincere chap. How he can reconcile his mainstream conservatism with the current Conservative party, leadership and its direction of travel is rather trickier to ascertain, though. One for him to come to terms with at his leisure. Perhaps not in terms of governance. There are clear differences in respect of philosophy, emphasis and general approach, though, per their speeches following the declaration. Time will, as ever, tell. |
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on May 4, 2024 23:51:58 GMT
oldnat "Prohibiting nuance in any debate, by presenting choices as absolute opposites, encourages extreme positions. That extremists can feel justified in then violently attacking those that they feel that they have defeated, shouldn't surprise anyone." Something else that is often overlooked is that if there is little apparent difference between the only parties likely to win (and I appreciate this is particularly an English problem), people slightly outside that apparent consensus view will get frustrated especially if it goes on for decades. This was one of the big drivers of the Brexit vote IMO. There was no mainstream party advocating or even contemplating leaving the EU even if they used to blame it for anything they thought would be unpopular. This was despite a large proportion of the electorate wanting to leave. This went on for decades, so given the chance the great British public gave the traditional two-fingered salute to the lot of them. Great!
In many EU states, EU decisions/policies were reported and discussed almost as prominently as matters within the state. Despite being an EU member, that simply didn't happen in the UK with the state broadcaster probably (as you say) wanting to take credit for the state for any good things, but "blame it [EU] for anything they thought would be unpopular."
Every political structure has benefits and disadvantages, but where there is poor coverage of both, those in power (parties and media) deny the people the information they need to make decent decisions. Consequently, the crucial "balance of advantage" aspect is not allowed to rear its head. The EU (or the UK or an indy Scotland) are portrayed as if they must be "ideal", or "dreadful" - when, in reality, none of them can be realistically so portrayed. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 5, 2024 0:09:55 GMT
A typically balanced, informed view on the current political situation from the Mail. Apparently, those BBC lefties are largely to blame. I wonder if La Kuenssberg has received the memo? We'll find out in her usual impeccably balanced programme tomorrow, presumably. There's obviously no way she would have a face like a bulldog licking p*ss off a stinging nettle when interviewing a LAB spokesperson, then. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13383183/MAIL-SUNDAY-COMMENT-Dont-believe-told-Tories-win.html |
|
|
|
Post by mercian on May 5, 2024 0:21:01 GMT
oldnat Just to be clear, I meant 'Great!' not in any political sense at all but simply that there is still some fighting spirit and defiance against perceived tyranny in the British people. In a small way it's in the tradition of Agincourt, Waterloo, Dunkirk, Battle of Britain and so on. Also stuff like Jack Cade's rebellion, the Tolpuddle martyrs etc even if those weren't so successful. "They have given us into the hand of new unhappy lords, Lords without anger or honour, who dare not carry their swords. They fight by shuffling papers; they have bright dead alien eyes; They look at our labour and laughter as a tired man looks at flies. And the load of their loveless pity is worse than the ancient wrongs, Their doors are shut in the evening; and they know no songs. We hear men speaking for us of new laws strong and sweet, Yet is there no man speaketh as we speak in the street. It may be we shall rise the last as Frenchmen rose the first, Our wrath come after Russia's wrath and our wrath be the worst. It may be we are meant to mark with our riot and our rest God's scorn for all men governing. It may be beer is best. But we are the people of England; and we have not spoken yet. Smile at us, pay us, pass us. But do not quite forget." And I think we did finally speak in 2016. I bet they don't ask us again. 
|
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on May 5, 2024 0:26:20 GMT
|
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on May 5, 2024 0:35:28 GMT
But we are the people of England; and we have not spoken yet.Smile at us, pay us, pass us. But do not quite forget." And I think we did finally speak in 2016. I bet they don't ask us again.
Still, forgiveness and understanding can still prevail - |
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,392
|
Post by neilj on May 5, 2024 5:19:27 GMT
Opinium
Labour lead remains at 16:
· Labour 40% (-1)
· Conservatives 24% (-1)
· Lib Dems 11% (+1)
· SNP 3% (+1)
· Greens 7% (n/c)
· Reform 12% (-1)
|
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,392
|
Post by neilj on May 5, 2024 5:42:14 GMT
Front page of the Mail on Sunday, King Charles opinion poll and what Angela Rayner may or may not have done 10 years ago
In fairness it's been a slow news week, it's not as if anything else has happened over the last couple of days...
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,649
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on May 5, 2024 5:55:22 GMT
"And you certainly did, though the people of Scotland, Gibraltar and Ireland, for whom you also chose to speak, differed."
it might have escaped your notice But a similar percentage voted remain in London and a far larger number in total as voted remain in Scotland
Scotland had a million of its own wee bampots.
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,649
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on May 5, 2024 6:15:04 GMT
Sunakered contemplating his future.  |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,649
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on May 5, 2024 6:38:12 GMT
|
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,392
|
Post by neilj on May 5, 2024 7:09:39 GMT
Scottish Westminster Voting Intention:
LAB: 34% (+2)
SNP: 29% (-3)
CON: 16% (=)
LDM: 8% (-1)
Via
@norstatgroup
, 30 Apr - 3 May.
Changes w/ 9-12 Apr.
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,649
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on May 5, 2024 7:17:36 GMT
What can be taken from the last few days I think is in general the Liberal democrats and Labour were strongest where they need to be for general election success.
There are a few areas where the right anti Tory choice for the less than obsessively partisan isn't clear.
Unfortunately I live in one.
How to vote in an area where at the last general election the Lib dems were in third but subsequently the neighbouring constituency has switched from Tory to lib dem on the other side of the constituency it's been lib dem since 2017, where the local councils are now overwhelmingly lib dem , with Labour trailing far behind, where the new constituency next to ours to the north is likely to go lib dem and where on Thursday the only local election we had , that for the PCC saw the Lib dems in clear second place.
It's a quandary fortunately not shared by many.
Have to wait for the election to be called, sooner the better.
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,649
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on May 5, 2024 7:20:11 GMT
neilj This guy. Too much hair, only the folically challenged should apply. 
|
|
|
|
Post by crossbat11 on May 5, 2024 7:20:41 GMT
@grahan I think we should let bygones be bygones. Currently in the wilds of the Derbyshire Dales "preparing" for a family wedding on Monday. Internet down in this isolated part of the country. Can anybody tell me the results of the London and West Midlands Mayoral elections? I can tell you that the Blues were relegated. EDIT: I must admit I didn't realise even stuff like telephones had reached the Derbyshire Dales yet. Blues relegation is a mere trifle in the great scheme of things. That great scheme being the recent local election results and events yet to unfold at both Anfield and the Amex Stadium this afternoon You're right about the poorness of the phone signal up here, though, albeit it didn't stop mine pinging with various cruel mocking messages about the fate of Villa's city neighbours circa 2.30pm yesterday afternoon. I thought this a bit unnecessary, to be honest, when you consider that had the fates of our two deeply cherished Birmingham clubs been reversed, no such mockery would have been forthcoming from the Small Heath neighbourhood of our shared city. No claret and blue coffins, laughing policeman memes etc etc 🤔😂🥰 |
|
|
|
Post by nickpoole on May 5, 2024 7:22:25 GMT
What can be taken from the last few days I think is in general the Liberal democrats and Labour were strongest where they need to be for general election success. There are a few areas where the right anti Tory choice for the less than obsessively partisan isn't clear. Unfortunately I live in one. How to vote in an area where at the last general election the Lib dems were in third but subsequently the neighbouring constituency has switched from Tory to lib dem on the other side of the constituency it's been lib dem since 2017, where the local councils are now overwhelmingly lib dem , with Labour trailing far behind, where the new constituency next to ours to the north is likely to go lib dem and where on Thursday the only local election we had , that for the PCC saw the Lib dems in clear second place. It's a quandary fortunately not shared by many. Have to wait for the election to be called, sooner the better. It's simple, vote Labour, everywhere. It's about time the LibDems or SDP or whatever the splitter of the progressive vote are currently called got out of the way. |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,366
|
Post by Danny on May 5, 2024 7:28:34 GMT
Rather nice to see the speeches from both Parker and Street in the West Mids. Respect shown by Parker for his predecessor and the defeated Street displayed decency and humility. I am reminded of the time Michael Portillo lost his seat, despite being credited as the mastermind of the election strategy and a very prominent politician, regarded as future conservative leader. On wiki there is a quote from him about the count, for the 'Portillo Moment' article, "I know I was a national figure of hate for Labour but you can only hate at a distance. The people in that room were Labour councillors that I'd worked with and liked. All evening, they treated me with courtesy and consideration". Street did as well as he did because he behaved very differently to many front rank conservative politicans now as then. Portillo's public image has softened greatly since leaving office, what with his appearances on the andrew Neil politics show and his travalogues. But its right, he likely lost because of his hard line image, and there are quite a few conservatives making public appearances right now franky defending the indefensible essentially as part of their job. But that will simultaneously be burning away their own electoral support. Thus we have candidates increasingly trying to distance themselves from the conservative party and image. Its inevitable con will become a pro EU party once again, at the moment they judge this is to their electoral advantage. If refuk remains significant, this might in fact hasten the process, because its bleeding away the more extreme right, pushing the party back to the centre. It seems likely the brexiteers in the party know this is inevitable, and its a reason for staying in power as long as possible now. They will be forced either to recant or leave in the future, likely before con attain power again. So every little nail they can still place in Brexit right now, making more trouble for the Uk, is worth it. |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,576
Member is Online
|
Post by pjw1961 on May 5, 2024 7:32:08 GMT
Apologies in advance for a brief sporting reference, perhaps particularly to pjw1961 . In my defence, I am hardly a serial offender in this context. The drama in the WM and London mayoral races vied bewilderingly in my head with events in the County Championship at Taunton, where Somerset beat Essex by 3 wickets inside two days. Essex are a consistently good team, whereas Somerset are capable of occasional brilliance, but equally prone to brittle batting and ineffectual bowling. Anyhoo, after bowling out Essex cheaply twice, (a surprising performance in itself), and an obligatory rubbish first innings themselves, they were left needing 167 to win. That should have been fairly straightforward, but as they were all out for 128 in the first innings, I was expecting another skittling. Remarkably, they just managed to crawl over the line, making 170-7. I'm sure Essex will be livid, beaten in two days by the carrot crunchers. Good effort by the Somerset boys, though. Not livid at all - conditions were the same for both sides. Can't help wondering if you might be in a spot of bother over the pitch though. There were only two scores over 40 in the match - highest 43. |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,366
|
Post by Danny on May 5, 2024 7:33:33 GMT
Indeed, very dark days after the 2016 referendum result and I can't think anyone wants to go back to all that. You mssed the point this a 'matrix' moment? We are still living the dark days because we left the EU. The ony way out is rejoin. |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,576
Member is Online
|
Post by pjw1961 on May 5, 2024 7:35:43 GMT
I don't know anything about Street or Parker - but presumably, the change of Mayor will make sod all difference to the governance of the West Midlands? Perhaps not in terms of governance. There are clear differences in respect of philosophy, emphasis and general approach, though, per their speeches following the declaration. Time will, as ever, tell. The main difference I am aware of is that Parker has pledged to bring buses into public control. The new Mayors were once described as glorified transport commissioners. Not completely fair, but has some truth. |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,366
|
Post by Danny on May 5, 2024 7:36:38 GMT
Wow, who knew polling matters could be so rivetting, and in real time? High drama indeed. I was resigned to Street hanging on, virtually until the end, when Beth Rigby, possibly inadvertently, said that LAB had won Sandwell by 1,500, which led me to think, from my convoluted mental arithmetic on the figures that she had earlier given, that they would still be c10,000 short. I feel for Street; clearly a dedicated, well-intentioned and sincere chap. How he can reconcile his mainstream conservatism with the current Conservative party, leadership and its direction of travel is rather trickier to ascertain, though. One for him to come to terms with at his leisure. people have argued Con might have won the London mayor, with a candidate more like Street. But perhaps you explain why they could not find such a person. |
|
|
|
Post by dodger on May 5, 2024 7:38:56 GMT
Good Morning, anyone know why Reform didn't stand a candidate in the Tees Valley mayoral election? Brexity is it not?
|
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,125
|
Post by domjg on May 5, 2024 7:39:18 GMT
oldnat Just to be clear, I meant 'Great!' not in any political sense at all but simply that there is still some fighting spirit and defiance against perceived tyranny in the British people. In a small way it's in the tradition of Agincourt, Waterloo, Dunkirk, Battle of Britain and so on. Also stuff like Jack Cade's rebellion, the Tolpuddle martyrs etc even if those weren't so successful. "They have given us into the hand of new unhappy lords, Lords without anger or honour, who dare not carry their swords. They fight by shuffling papers; they have bright dead alien eyes; They look at our labour and laughter as a tired man looks at flies. And the load of their loveless pity is worse than the ancient wrongs, Their doors are shut in the evening; and they know no songs. We hear men speaking for us of new laws strong and sweet, Yet is there no man speaketh as we speak in the street. It may be we shall rise the last as Frenchmen rose the first, Our wrath come after Russia's wrath and our wrath be the worst. It may be we are meant to mark with our riot and our rest God's scorn for all men governing. It may be beer is best. But we are the people of England; and we have not spoken yet. Smile at us, pay us, pass us. But do not quite forget." And I think we did finally speak in 2016. I bet they don't ask us again. Oh my goodness! The English can be some of the most timid and craven people in Europe. Don't complain, must grumble etc etc, doff your cap to your toff overlords. Very different to the French for example. Even the Americans are enthusiastic about prosecuting those accused of corporate crimes, here the establishment just closes ranks. |
|
|
|
Post by thylacine on May 5, 2024 7:41:02 GMT
For those missing the ROC element on here I might suggest a visit to Conservative home ( remember to take an antiseptic bath before return though). I did so this morning. They are in a bad way and I ended up feeling like a ghoulish rubber necker ! Fun though !
|
|
