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Post by mercian on May 4, 2024 21:14:31 GMT
On a far less positive note an SPD European election candidate has been hospitalised with 'serious injuries' in Dresden after he and his companions were set upon by a group of far right thugs while putting up posters in broad daylight. Saxony and Dresden especially have long been a 'Hochburg' of the AfD and the far right in general (this was the birthplace of the racist Pegida demonstrations) but this is a level of political violence that is very troubling even for the East and even for Saxony. The AfD is on the backfoot at the moment following the uncovering of several of it's prominent members as Russian spies and a campaign plan that appears to have been drawn up directly by the Kremlin. I wonder if this is a kind of kickback. Imagine what it does to democracy if people don't feel they can do normal street campaigning in safety. This is why I get annoyed when people (not you in particular) talk about UKIP or Reform or even some Tories as being 'far right'. They have no idea what it means. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 4, 2024 21:15:54 GMT
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Post by mercian on May 4, 2024 21:16:49 GMT
Rather nice to see the speeches from both Parker and Street in the West Mids. Respect shown by Parker for his predecessor and the defeated Street displayed decency and humility. Compare and contrast with the ill judged whinge from Hall in London. CCHQ really picked a duff candidate there, and ran a foul tempered, ignorant campaign. They got the result they deserved. Obviously Mercians are nicer people. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 4, 2024 21:18:42 GMT
Exactly. Will the wider tory party draw the lesson that tories who win or nearly win elections currently are those who sound nothing like the noisy culture warriors who seem destined to be in even greater control of the party following GE defeat? It would be good for our society if they did heed that but i won't hold my breath. The Tories have always been nothing but pragmatic. They have far fewer ideologues than does Labour and are very adaptable. Look at the difference between Heath and Thatcher for instance. Or Thatcher and Major. It's much more difficult (for me anyway) to judge the more recent bunch as they've been so blown about by events that not much has happened apart from firefighting. Let's hope that they haven't lost that adaptability. I honestly think this is no longer true. The pragmatists used to always be in the ascendant over the ideologically obsessed 'bastards' as Major termed them but the pragmatists are gone.The lunatics have taken over the asylum and very possibly have literally no idea what is best for them. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 4, 2024 21:20:41 GMT
Rather nice to see the speeches from both Parker and Street in the West Mids. Respect shown by Parker for his predecessor and the defeated Street displayed decency and humility. Compare and contrast with the ill judged whinge from Hall in London. CCHQ really picked a duff candidate there, and ran a foul tempered, ignorant campaign. They got the result they deserved. Obviously Mercians are nicer people.  |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 4, 2024 21:22:13 GMT
On a far less positive note an SPD European election candidate has been hospitalised with 'serious injuries' in Dresden after he and his companions were set upon by a group of far right thugs while putting up posters in broad daylight. Saxony and Dresden especially have long been a 'Hochburg' of the AfD and the far right in general (this was the birthplace of the racist Pegida demonstrations) but this is a level of political violence that is very troubling even for the East and even for Saxony. The AfD is on the backfoot at the moment following the uncovering of several of it's prominent members as Russian spies and a campaign plan that appears to have been drawn up directly by the Kremlin. I wonder if this is a kind of kickback. Imagine what it does to democracy if people don't feel they can do normal street campaigning in safety. This is why I get annoyed when people (not you in particular) talk about UKIP or Reform or even some Tories as being 'far right'. They have no idea what it means. You don't have to be far right thugs to encourage far right thugs to violent acts. Even the leave campaign spurred acts of violence pre and post referendum. |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 4, 2024 21:22:31 GMT
birdseyeThe West Midlands Police area has the highest rate of knife crime offences in England and Wales, latest national figures show. Offences involving a blade per 100,000 of the population, in the force area in 2023, totalled 180, up from 167 in 2022. The London Metropolitan Police force total was 165.25 Apr 2024 The metropolitan police district ranks third in terms of knife crime. However the metropolitan police district is twelfth per capita in terms of homicide
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Post by mercian on May 4, 2024 21:24:36 GMT
domjgYou might be right, but could you name one or two prominent Tories that you would consider to be lunatics? For instance Sunak and Hunt, the two most important ones strike me as being pretty pragmatic. They may not be particularly good politicians (though I think Hunt is underrated) but they're not exactly loonies.
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Post by mercian on May 4, 2024 21:26:39 GMT
Obviously Mercians are nicer people. Well as I said to my chess chum I wouldn't call anyone in the bar of the club where we play by that term.  |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 4, 2024 21:28:39 GMT
The Tories have always been nothing but pragmatic. They have far fewer ideologues than does Labour and are very adaptable. Look at the difference between Heath and Thatcher for instance. Or Thatcher and Major. It's much more difficult (for me anyway) to judge the more recent bunch as they've been so blown about by events that not much has happened apart from firefighting. Let's hope that they haven't lost that adaptability. I honestly think this is no longer true. The pragmatists used to always be in the ascendant over the ideologically obsessed 'bastards' as Major termed them but the pragmatists are gone. The lunatics have taken over the asylum and very possibly have literally no idea what is best for them. |
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Post by mercian on May 4, 2024 21:29:32 GMT
This is why I get annoyed when people (not you in particular) talk about UKIP or Reform or even some Tories as being 'far right'. They have no idea what it means. You don't have to be far right thugs to encourage far right thugs to violent acts. Even the leave campaign spurred acts of violence pre and post referendum. I'd be interested to see any evidence of that assertion. There may perhaps have been some acts of violence by Leave supporters though I don't remember any, but to say that the Leave campaign spurred them on is quite a serious allegation. |
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Post by mercian on May 4, 2024 21:37:02 GMT
I honestly think this is no longer true. The pragmatists used to always be in the ascendant over the ideologically obsessed 'bastards' as Major termed them but the pragmatists are gone. The lunatics have taken over the asylum and very possibly have literally no idea what is best for them. Not entirely sure what you mean by my party, but if it's UKIP (of which I am no longer a member) we never had anyone like that. The ones I knew were just ordinary people who wanted to leave the EU. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 4, 2024 21:52:27 GMT
Perhaps, more accurately, the pragmatists were expelled by the new asylum director - Boris Johnson (for his own, entirely personal, ambitions) - and the lunatics placed in charge by him. If I understand correctly what has happened in English Conservative Associations, there was a consequent outflow of the traditional pragmatists, and their replacement by the sort of people that mercian might have been happy to see leaving his party. Not entirely sure what you mean by my party, but if it's UKIP (of which I am no longer a member) we never had anyone like that. The ones I knew were just ordinary people who wanted to leave the EU. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 4, 2024 21:56:17 GMT
domjg You might be right, but could you name one or two prominent Tories that you would consider to be lunatics? For instance Sunak and Hunt, the two most important ones strike me as being pretty pragmatic. They may not be particularly good politicians (though I think Hunt is underrated) but they're not exactly loonies. You could probably count Mordaunt among the relatively pragmatic number as well though frankly anyone pushing through or supporting the immoral and costly Rwanda plan has lost any sense of what the public wants or finds acceptable. Any members of any ‘research groups’ are bonkers of course and arch culture warriors Badenoch and Braverman are waiting to pounce after the election. Hall has also just been showing us what many tories think a majority of people want when clearly they actually don’t. Post GE with a rump parliamentary party devoid of major talent controlled by a Ukipised membership as Oldnat has eloquently explained, the odds in favour of pragmatism and reason are small. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 4, 2024 22:04:36 GMT
Andy Street makes a good point "The thing everyone should take from the West Midlands tonight is it's this brand of moderate, inclusive, tolerant Conservatism that gets on and delivers, & has come within an inch of beating the Labour Party in what they consider to be their backyard." Unfortunately I don't think anyone in the tory high command is listening
Surely, Starmer will be encouraged to go, even a little, further in offering some prospect of the incoming government acting to make some moves towards fairness in society?I think you will find that if Labour are "exercising actual power" then they are guaranteed to "go along with whatever the current nutter government says" because that will be them!  |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 4, 2024 22:08:09 GMT
While Labour hasn't even, publicly, adopted "this brand of moderate, inclusive, tolerant Conservatism that gets on and [promises to] deliver", though I hope that they will dump the "go along with whatever the current nutter government says", when it comes to exercising actual power.
Surely, Starmer will be encouraged to go, even a little, further in offering some prospect of the incoming government acting to make some moves towards fairness in society? I think you will find that if Labour are "exercising actual power" then they are guaranteed to "go along with whatever the current nutter government says" because that will be them! |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 4, 2024 22:09:23 GMT
You don't have to be far right thugs to encourage far right thugs to violent acts. Even the leave campaign spurred acts of violence pre and post referendum. I'd be interested to see any evidence of that assertion. There may perhaps have been some acts of violence by Leave supporters though I don't remember any, but to say that the Leave campaign spurred them on is quite a serious allegation. Jo Cox would be the most obvious of course. Numerous aggressive acts against Eastern Europeans and even those speaking another language especially in the immediate aftermath of the vote when many violently inclined idiots seemed to think all immigrants would be expelled and that it was now acceptable to persecute them. I recall a specific case of a family of Poles picknicking in a park being violently chased away by some thugs who apparently told them the brexit vote meant their (the thugs) children shouldn’t have to hear the Polish language. I’m personally aware of cases of verbal abuse against people speaking even French and German that they had never previously experienced in years of living in the UK. I would go as far to say that the rhetoric of the leave campaign had a direct bearing on generating the atmosphere that allowed such acts to take place |
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Post by pjw1961 on May 4, 2024 22:12:30 GMT
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Post by mercian on May 4, 2024 22:15:38 GMT
Not entirely sure what you mean by my party, but if it's UKIP (of which I am no longer a member) we never had anyone like that. The ones I knew were just ordinary people who wanted to leave the EU. There was one guy - a local 'activist' - who jumped on the bandwagon towards the end and eventually took over and ran the branch into the ground. I don't think he was even particularly interested in leaving the EU, just using UKIP as a way to get some sort of political credibility rather than being a voice in the wilderness. He had a particular animus against the Sandwell Labour mayor for reasons I never understood. I didn't like him, but that didn't mean he was a bad person. I think he did quite a bit of good for people on his council estate, arguing their cases with the council an so on. Anyway thanks for the compliment. It was so unexpected I didn't recognise it . |
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Post by jib on May 4, 2024 22:22:23 GMT
Indeed, very dark days after the 2016 referendum result and I can't think anyone wants to go back to all that.
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Post by mercian on May 4, 2024 22:27:42 GMT
I'd be interested to see any evidence of that assertion. There may perhaps have been some acts of violence by Leave supporters though I don't remember any, but to say that the Leave campaign spurred them on is quite a serious allegation. Jo Cox would be the most obvious of course. Numerous aggressive acts against Eastern Europeans and even those speaking another language especially in the immediate aftermath of the vote when many violently inclined idiots seemed to think all immigrants would be expelled and that it was now acceptable to persecute them. I recall a specific case of a family of Poles picknicking in a park being violently chased away by some thugs who apparently told them the brexit vote meant their (the thugs) children shouldn’t have to hear the Polish language. I’m personally aware of cases of verbal abuse against people speaking even French and German that they had never previously experienced in years of living in the UK. OK, I remember the Jo Cox murder but how did the Leave campaign spur it on? This from Wikipedia: "Initial reports indicated that the attacker, Thomas Mair, a 52-year-old Batley and Spen constituent and a white supremacist who was obsessed with Nazis and apartheid-era South Africa and with links to the US-based neo-Nazi group National Alliance,shouted "Britain first" as he attacked her. The far-right Britain First party issued a statement denying any involvement or encouragement in the attack and suggested that the phrase "could have been a slogan rather than a reference to our party." Later at Mair's trial, a witness stated that he shouted: "This is for Britain. Britain will always come first." Yes, he was what I would call far-right, but how exactly is the Leave campaign involved? As I tried to say before, asserting that democratic parties or campaigns are 'far right' just because you don't agree with them is cheapening the term. Nazis and neo-Nazis are far-right. UKIP, Reform, Conservatives are not. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 4, 2024 22:30:26 GMT
Indeed, very dark days after the 2016 referendum result and I can't think anyone wants to go back to all that. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 4, 2024 22:32:08 GMT
Jo Cox would be the most obvious of course. Numerous aggressive acts against Eastern Europeans and even those speaking another language especially in the immediate aftermath of the vote when many violently inclined idiots seemed to think all immigrants would be expelled and that it was now acceptable to persecute them. I recall a specific case of a family of Poles picknicking in a park being violently chased away by some thugs who apparently told them the brexit vote meant their (the thugs) children shouldn’t have to hear the Polish language. I’m personally aware of cases of verbal abuse against people speaking even French and German that they had never previously experienced in years of living in the UK. OK, I remember the Jo Cox murder but how did the Leave campaign spur it on? This from Wikipedia: "Initial reports indicated that the attacker, Thomas Mair, a 52-year-old Batley and Spen constituent and a white supremacist who was obsessed with Nazis and apartheid-era South Africa and with links to the US-based neo-Nazi group National Alliance,shouted "Britain first" as he attacked her. The far-right Britain First party issued a statement denying any involvement or encouragement in the attack and suggested that the phrase "could have been a slogan rather than a reference to our party." Later at Mair's trial, a witness stated that he shouted: "This is for Britain. Britain will always come first." Yes, he was what I would call far-right, but how exactly is the Leave campaign involved? As I tried to say before, asserting that democratic parties or campaigns are 'far right' just because you don't agree with them is cheapening the term. Nazis and neo-Nazis are far-right. UKIP, Reform, Conservatives are not. I think the timing was relevant. |
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Post by mercian on May 4, 2024 22:39:54 GMT
Ok, I read the first of these and presumably this is the sort of thing that domjg meant “What has been most upsetting and disturbing is that there have been no immediate statements from leave campaign leaders condemning such xenophobic and racially motivated incidents.” But why would they? It was nothing to do with them. Did they actively incite violence? Of course not. By issuing an immediate statement they would be inviting people to think that they were somehow connected to these incidents which of course they weren't. Are you saying that all referenda should be banned in case some extremists get the wrong idea? What if there's another Scottish referendum and some drunks in Glasgow get into a fight about it. Would you blame the SNP? Perhaps all politics should be banned in case some nutter gets the wrong idea? |
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Post by mercian on May 4, 2024 22:41:32 GMT
OK, I remember the Jo Cox murder but how did the Leave campaign spur it on? This from Wikipedia: "Initial reports indicated that the attacker, Thomas Mair, a 52-year-old Batley and Spen constituent and a white supremacist who was obsessed with Nazis and apartheid-era South Africa and with links to the US-based neo-Nazi group National Alliance,shouted "Britain first" as he attacked her. The far-right Britain First party issued a statement denying any involvement or encouragement in the attack and suggested that the phrase "could have been a slogan rather than a reference to our party." Later at Mair's trial, a witness stated that he shouted: "This is for Britain. Britain will always come first." Yes, he was what I would call far-right, but how exactly is the Leave campaign involved? As I tried to say before, asserting that democratic parties or campaigns are 'far right' just because you don't agree with them is cheapening the term. Nazis and neo-Nazis are far-right. UKIP, Reform, Conservatives are not. I think the timing was relevant. I don't. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2024 22:43:57 GMT
Wow, who knew polling matters could be so rivetting, and in real time? High drama indeed. I was resigned to Street hanging on, virtually until the end, when Beth Rigby, possibly inadvertently, said that LAB had won Sandwell by 1,500, which led me to think, from my convoluted mental arithmetic on the figures that she had earlier given, that they would still be c10,000 short.
I feel for Street; clearly a dedicated, well-intentioned and sincere chap. How he can reconcile his mainstream conservatism with the current Conservative party, leadership and its direction of travel is rather trickier to ascertain, though. One for him to come to terms with at his leisure.
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Post by jib on May 4, 2024 22:44:54 GMT
Indeed, very dark days after the 2016 referendum result and I can't think anyone wants to go back to all that. I didn't say that at all. I'm just glad things have moved on from the binary choices then. |
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Post by crossbat11 on May 4, 2024 22:47:32 GMT
grahamI think we should let bygones be bygones. Currently in the wilds of the Derbyshire Dales "preparing" for a family wedding on Monday. Internet down in this isolated part of the country. Can anybody tell me the results of the London and West Midlands Mayoral elections?
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 4, 2024 22:47:47 GMT
Wow, who knew polling matters could be so rivetting, and in real time? High drama indeed. I was resigned to Street hanging on, virtually until the end, when Beth Rigby, possibly inadvertently, said that LAB had won Sandwell by 1,500, which led me to think, from my convoluted mental arithmetic on the figures that she had earlier given, that they would still be c10,000 short. I feel for Street; clearly a dedicated, well-intentioned and sincere chap. How he can reconcile his mainstream conservatism with the current Conservative party, leadership and its direction of travel is rather trickier to ascertain, though. One for him to come to terms with at his leisure. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2024 22:49:23 GMT
@grahan I think we should let bygones be bygones. Currently in the wilds of the Derbyshire Dales "preparing" for a family wedding on Monday. Internet down in this isolated part of the country. Can anybody tell me the results of the London and West Midlands Mayoral elections? Three nil to the Arsenal. |
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