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Post by barbara on Feb 4, 2024 13:07:04 GMT
"Labour is planning only limited first-term reforms of social care and the House of Lords and a smaller green investment plan as part of a stripped-down general election manifesto, as it seeks to make its policies “bombproof” to Tory attacks." By becoming Tory lite. It must be very disappointing for Labour party activists. On the contrary. Starmer is showing a realistic and pragmatic approach to government given the absolute shitshow he will inherit. He doesn't just want a smash and grab, he wants two full terms to complete and embed his plans and roll back the damage done by this lot of shysters. Further to this I think Starmer knows how important it is to only commit to what you can deliver. We saw what happened when you promise the earth in 2019 (Labour) and also with Johnson's Brexit promises - people are much more sceptical after the last decade and simply don't believe these promises and furthermore think you don't believe it either or you aren't bright enough to understand it's undeliverable. The finances of the country in terms of debt and growth and the state of public services are the worst in many decades - even 1945 was heading for growth after the war and the debt was less as a percentage of GDP than now. So anyone who thinks that miracles are going to be possible in a first term or that the success of the economy is divorced from investment in public services in living in a fools' paradise I'm afraid. Both leadership and management are the art of hte possible. I'm coming to the understanding that Starmer is quite possibly the most suitable leader the party could have chosen for this particular situation and moment. Steady, sensible, calm - but also clear about the scale of the mountain to climb. And so confident about his own Labour values and principles that he knows the best way to deliver what people want in the medium and long term is to get the short term right. And if that means upsetting some of his supporters then he will do the right thing. |
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Post by hireton on Feb 4, 2024 13:08:48 GMT
moby and crossbat11Re Drakeford's remarks he simply said, it seems, that independence was mot a desirable option but did not comment on the substance of the report's other options including greater devolution. And politically he is yesterday's news and was only ever a footnote in UK Labour thinking. Regarding the devolution of justice and policing UK Labour's response from the Shadow Welsh Scretary was that UK Labour is committed to "exploring" the devolution of youth justice and probation. Still if Labour supporters are happy with their party "exploring" issues then so be it.
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steve
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Post by steve on Feb 4, 2024 13:21:55 GMT
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Post by graham on Feb 4, 2024 14:15:34 GMT
moby and crossbat11 Re Drakeford's remarks he simply said, it seems, that independence was mot a desirable option but did not comment on the substance of the report's other options including greater devolution. And politically he is yesterday's news and was only ever a footnote in UK Labour thinking. Regarding the devolution of justice and policing UK Labour's response from the Shadow Welsh Scretary was that UK Labour is committed to "exploring" the devolution of youth justice and probation. Still if Labour supporters are happy with their party "exploring" issues then so be it. The option of reversing devolution would be welcome to many! Get rid of the Welsh Assembly and restore the representation of Wales at Westminster to 40 MPs.! |
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steve
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Post by steve on Feb 4, 2024 15:09:35 GMT
grahamWhy should Wales have pro rata 30% more MP's than England it's already over represented
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Post by leftieliberal on Feb 4, 2024 15:30:38 GMT
I for one wish Starmer/Labour was a little more ambitious, but can appreciate their caution. The country's finances are and will be in a terrible state and for the first couple of years prudence will be required It's very easy for parties unlikely to be in power to promise all sorts of things. But if they ever got into power, the realities of it would slap them in the face. One of the worse things a political party can do is over promise and under deliver One decision that Starmer could make easily is to remove the remaining hereditary Peers from the Lords and not replace them with more cronies. Proper Lords' Reform will take longer, but it would be good to see Starmer complete Blair's reform. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 4, 2024 17:21:53 GMT
I for one wish Starmer/Labour was a little more ambitious, but can appreciate their caution. The country's finances are and will be in a terrible state and for the first couple of years prudence will be required It's very easy for parties unlikely to be in power to promise all sorts of things. But if they ever got into power, the realities of it would slap them in the face. One of the worse things a political party can do is over promise and under deliver One decision that Starmer could make easily is to remove the remaining hereditary Peers from the Lords and not replace them with more cronies. Proper Lords' Reform will take longer, but it would be good to see Starmer complete Blair's reform. My understanding is that is the bit of Lords reform that is being retained. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Feb 4, 2024 20:34:02 GMT
I think the debate on the wisdom and likely success of Starmer's tactics is a valid one, and worth having, however niggly it sometimes gets. The two views, a little polarised at times, could be summarised as one side thinking that the strategy is woefully over cautious and lacking the plans for the sort of radical change that the country needs, thereby uninspiring and lacking appeal, while the other side prioritises electoral success, the removal of this Tory government and, to that end, the need for party discipline, a teflon coated and detail-light policy offer and a general belief that you let your opponents get on with losing the election. Keep your powder very dry. Its sobering to think how much the UKs economic position has deteriorated under con in the time since Corbyn was leader, to the point what could have been done then is no longer possible. I wonder if con consider it their crowning achievement to bankrupt the state so labour cannot have a redistributive program? To have so comprehensively stripped the state of wealth and power it becomes powerless. |
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Post by mercian on Feb 4, 2024 20:37:24 GMT
moby and crossbat11 Re Drakeford's remarks he simply said, it seems, that independence was mot a desirable option but did not comment on the substance of the report's other options including greater devolution. And politically he is yesterday's news and was only ever a footnote in UK Labour thinking. Regarding the devolution of justice and policing UK Labour's response from the Shadow Welsh Scretary was that UK Labour is committed to "exploring" the devolution of youth justice and probation. Still if Labour supporters are happy with their party "exploring" issues then so be it. The option of reversing devolution would be welcome to many! Get rid of the Welsh Assembly and restore the representation of Wales at Westminster to 40 MPs.! I don't remember recent polling but I remember that the vote in the original referendum was a fraction over 50% of a fraction over 50% turnout. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 4, 2024 21:29:35 GMT
The option of reversing devolution would be welcome to many! Get rid of the Welsh Assembly and restore the representation of Wales at Westminster to 40 MPs.! I don't remember recent polling but I remember that the vote in the original referendum was a fraction over 50% of a fraction over 50% turnout. The more recent 2011 referendum to increase the powers of the Welsh Senedd was won 63.5% to 36.5% with 21 out of 22 local government areas voting in favour. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Welsh_devolution_referendum#:~:text=While%20the%20referendum%20was%20technically,of%20the%20quadrennial%20Assembly%20election. |
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Post by graham on Feb 4, 2024 21:32:44 GMT
The option of reversing devolution would be welcome to many! Get rid of the Welsh Assembly and restore the representation of Wales at Westminster to 40 MPs.! I don't remember recent polling but I remember that the vote in the original referendum was a fraction over 50% of a fraction over 50% turnout. Indeed it was 50.3% to 49.7%. Personally I felt that was close enough to justify a recount. It is the equivalent of a candidate being circa 300 votes ahead in a parliamentary constituency - which would be close enough for a full recount to be ordered. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2024 21:33:17 GMT
My internet reception, tv and radio have been off all day - any news as to whether the Arse held their own against Liverpool today?
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Post by graham on Feb 4, 2024 21:35:05 GMT
it was 63.49% to 36.51%. I suspect the vote against would now be a fair bit higher. |
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Post by alec on Feb 4, 2024 22:28:01 GMT
steve - "Why should Wales have pro rata 30% more MP's than England it's already over represented" Have you seen the quality of English MPs recently?
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Post by crossbat11 on Feb 4, 2024 22:34:16 GMT
My internet reception, tv and radio have been off all day - any news as to whether the Arse held their own against Liverpool today? Being handed their own arse is something that happens quite often to the Gooners. On this occasion they fluked a win. Totally against the run out of play. I suspect the match was fixed. |
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Post by alec on Feb 4, 2024 22:37:36 GMT
Really fascinating to watch the descent of Israel into a moral abyss. It's another example of right wing populism, where government ministers are openly advocating for ethnic cleansing, and are increasingly biting the hands that feed them in their insatiable belief that the world owes them so much that rules don't apply to them.
The latest example is the Israeli finance minister calling on their banks to ignore US sanctions of violent settlers, even as the US government considers a £10bn aid package to Israel. Never can a country have behaved so disparagingly to their biggest and staunchest international ally.
It's going to be really interesting to see where this far right populism ends up. Netanyahu has worked tirelessly to undermine all initiative for peaceful resolution of the Palestine issue, banking on the idea that western nations historic guilt and current geopolitical needs are such that their support is bombproof. Aided by the strategically inept and inhumane behaviour of Hamas, this dynamic still holds, albeit with some fraying at the margins, but the day may come when western voters wonder why we unquestioningly support a country hell bent on defying not just international law, but our own domestic laws.
I have a sense that the Israeli government is playing with fire here, and they are burning through goodwill at a remarkable rate.
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Dave
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... I'm dreaming dreams, I'm scheming schemes, I'm building castles high ..
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Post by Dave on Feb 4, 2024 22:59:49 GMT
it was 63.49% to 36.51%. I suspect the vote against would now be a fair bit higher. Did you really just pick up pjw over a whole 0.01% either way? 😆 Anyway, why do you think the vote against would now be higher? Do you have any evidence to back up your claim? |
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Post by graham on Feb 4, 2024 23:20:38 GMT
it was 63.49% to 36.51%. I suspect the vote against would now be a fair bit higher. Did you really just pick up pjw over a whole 0.01% either way? 😆 Anyway, why do you think the vote against would now be higher? Do you have any evidence to back up your claim? I suspect that the furore re 20 mph has not done the Welsh Assembly any favours. Hostility is likely to have increased. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Feb 4, 2024 23:31:19 GMT
Did you really just pick up pjw over a whole 0.01% either way? 😆 Anyway, why do you think the vote against would now be higher? Do you have any evidence to back up your claim? I suspect that the furore re 20 mph has not done the Welsh Assembly any favours. Hostility is likely to have increased. ‘Suspect’, ‘likely’.. I thought this place was nominally at least for discussion around actual stats. I ‘suspect’ that the more sensible application of Covid rules during the pandemic helped to further cement the idea of a distinct govt of Wales in the public’s mind. Wales is a country you know with it’s own language, rugby team and everything 🙂 Are you seriously against 20mph limits? We have them almost everywhere in Oxfordshire now and there seems in the end to have been little fuss, a couple of initial Sunak inspired vandalisations excepted. We’re getting one in our village shortly. Can’t wait, it will make our children safer. |
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Post by graham on Feb 4, 2024 23:43:03 GMT
I suspect that the furore re 20 mph has not done the Welsh Assembly any favours. Hostility is likely to have increased. ‘Suspect’, ‘likely’.. I thought this place was nominally at least for discussion around actual stats. I ‘suspect’ that the more sensible application of Covid rules during the pandemic helped to further cement the idea of a distinct govt of Wales in the public’s mind. Wales is a country you know with it’s own language and everything 🙂 Are you seriously against 20mph limits? We have them almost everywhere in Oxfordshire now and there seems in the end to have been little fuss, a couple of initial Sunak inspired vandalisations excepted. We’re getting one in our village shortly. Can’t wait, it will make our children safer. My opinion on 20 mph limits is irrelevant - there are clear indications that the proposal was not well received. As for Wales being a country , whilst it has a language spoken by 20% of its population it does not qualify for that status any more than Bavaria- Saxony - Rhineland Westphalia - Baden Wurtemburg do in Germany - indeed such areas have been separate states as recently as 1870. Ditto Tuscany - Umbria -et al as component parts of Italy - or Alsace - Lorraine - Normandy - Brittany - the Auvergne as parts of France. I see Wales as a region of Great Britain - along with Scotland - Wessex - Anglia - Cornwall - Mercia - Northumbria et al.
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Feb 5, 2024 1:29:34 GMT
I get irritated by nationalists of all stripes who attempt to try to use term such as "country", or "region" (or "nation") as if they have specific and absolute meanings in every context.
"Country" is not an equivalent term to "state", or "polity". It is a term which can be used to mean a political entity, or a part, that has its own distinct identity, of a wider one. Similarly, "region" is used to describe a geographical unit of a wider entity. Thus North America, or Europe, for example, are "regions" of the world. Great Britain (or the UK, or These Islands) can be properly described as regions of Europe. Wales can simultaneously be accurately described as both a country and a region.
You are unnecessarily twisting your knickers.
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Post by moby on Feb 5, 2024 4:18:10 GMT
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Post by moby on Feb 5, 2024 4:34:12 GMT
I don't remember recent polling but I remember that the vote in the original referendum was a fraction over 50% of a fraction over 50% turnout. Indeed it was 50.3% to 49.7%. Personally I felt that was close enough to justify a recount. It is the equivalent of a candidate being circa 300 votes ahead in a parliamentary constituency - which would be close enough for a full recount to be ordered. What's more interesting though is that after that close referendum the popularity of the Senedd has grown markedly over the years; despite increasing cynicism over politics and politicians generally. Devo max may be the sweet spot between Westminster rule and full Indy. Having a Labour Govmt at Westminster eases the journey towards this.Labour have a much better record on maximising devolution than the Tories after all. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Feb 5, 2024 5:27:58 GMT
Interesting analysis of US polls
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steve
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Post by steve on Feb 5, 2024 7:26:00 GMT
Graham
Could I remind you that if a child is hit by a vehicle at 30mph half will die.
At 20 mph 90% will survive.
For adults one in five pedestrians will die if hit by a vehicle at 30 mph this drops to 2.5% at 20 mph.
For larger and heavier vehicles the disparity is greater.
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steve
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Post by steve on Feb 5, 2024 7:39:40 GMT
Unchecked the Netanyahu administration will shortly render Gaza uninhabitable by destroying the vast majority of infrastructure utilities and housing.
This is by intent of course the purpose being to make the resident population homeless and incapable of normal activities of daily living and forcing them to leave Gaza by any means availed irrespective of whether there is no actual policy of forced rendition.
Those who can't by age infirmity and lack of options will be embittered beyond belief a group ripe for extremists calling for revenge.
Senseless murder following original senseless murder with no end in sight.
A ceasefire now would save lives but effectively the task of destroying Gaza as a place to live has already been done.
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steve
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Post by steve on Feb 5, 2024 8:02:35 GMT
neiljQuinnipiac University is historically one of the most accurate polling companies. It's most recent poll at the end of January have President Biden a 6 point lead over the traitor.
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Post by crossbat11 on Feb 5, 2024 8:09:53 GMT
I suspect that the furore re 20 mph has not done the Welsh Assembly any favours. Hostility is likely to have increased. ‘Suspect’, ‘likely’.. I thought this place was nominally at least for discussion around actual stats. I ‘suspect’ that the more sensible application of Covid rules during the pandemic helped to further cement the idea of a distinct govt of Wales in the public’s mind. Wales is a country you know with it’s own language, rugby team and everything 🙂 Are you seriously against 20mph limits? We have them almost everywhere in Oxfordshire now and there seems in the end to have been little fuss, a couple of initial Sunak inspired vandalisations excepted. We’re getting one in our village shortly. Can’t wait, it will make our children safer. I have a very strong suspicion that Starmer will be a useless Prime Minister. This assertion has been verified by the Statistical Office for Strong Suspicions. SOSS for short. |
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Post by alec on Feb 5, 2024 8:12:36 GMT
This is the kind of crazy, idiotic logic that dominates economics these days - www.theguardian.com/money/2024/feb/05/uk-state-pension-age-will-soon-need-to-rise-to-71-say-expertsWith asset values and wealth rising year on year (the world's 5 richest men are reputed to have doubled their fortunes since the start of the pandemic) in the world of real people, we are told we have to work ever longer, because there isn't enough money to tax to pay for decent pensions. But the other bit of screaming lunacy here is that one of the reasons workers will soon have to work until 71 before getting a pension is that so many workers are falling sick and leaving the workforce while still of working age. So the report writers and the useless journos who report this drivel lack an ounce of intelligence to appreciate what complete bollocks they are writing; they are openly saying that we have to work longer to pay for pensions because people are less and less able to ...er...work longer. Idiots! No! We need to 1) aggressively pursue policies that tackle health inequalities (which will include tackling preventable disease, like covid) 2) rebalance the tax system so it is less reliant on taxing labour and more on taxing wealth. Conceptually, this really isn't difficult to grasp, but this is such a classic example of how the chattering classes are completely blinkered and totally unable to think radically about anything. And this comes the day after Labour announce they won't do anything different because they want to 'bombproof' their manifesto. That's why we're in such a mess. No one wants to call out the fact the emperors of neoliberal economics have no clothes. |
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Post by crossbat11 on Feb 5, 2024 8:38:11 GMT
This is the kind of crazy, idiotic logic that dominates economics these days - www.theguardian.com/money/2024/feb/05/uk-state-pension-age-will-soon-need-to-rise-to-71-say-expertsWith asset values and wealth rising year on year (the world's 5 richest men are reputed to have doubled their fortunes since the start of the pandemic) in the world of real people, we are told we have to work ever longer, because there isn't enough money to tax to pay for decent pensions. But the other bit of screaming lunacy here is that one of the reasons workers will soon have to work until 71 before getting a pension is that so many workers are falling sick and leaving the workforce while still of working age. So the report writers and the useless journos who report this drivel lack an ounce of intelligence to appreciate what complete bollocks they are writing; they are openly saying that we have to work longer to pay for pensions because people are less and less able to ...er...work longer. Idiots! No! We need to 1) aggressively pursue policies that tackle health inequalities (which will include tackling preventable disease, like covid) 2) rebalance the tax system so it is less reliant on taxing labour and more on taxing wealth. Conceptually, this really isn't difficult to grasp, but this is such a classic example of how the chattering classes are completely blinkered and totally unable to think radically about anything. And this comes the day after Labour announce they won't do anything different because they want to 'bombproof' their manifesto. That's why we're in such a mess. No one wants to call out the fact the emperors of neoliberal economics have no clothes. Agree with much of this but why does bombproofing your manifesto mean that you won't do anything different in government? Tactics designed to win elections are a world away from policies enacted in government. By the way, unless you have some extraordinary level of access to the inner workings of the Labour Party, none of us have seen the manifesto yet. I presume we will in November though when the election is held. You may be falling for some of the commentariat chatter you rightly deride in your post. |
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