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Post by mercian on Feb 2, 2024 19:34:36 GMT
I actually remember that advert. I hope they kept using it for 20+ years or I'm even older than I thought. |
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Post by mark61 on Feb 2, 2024 19:42:54 GMT
Ref. Labour dropping their Green pledge, this has energised Labours critics on here who follow other Parties who purport to occupy the Centre or Centre/left. However the thing for me is that I have had experience Of Labour Governments, and to my mind they have all been better than the only real alternative on offer.
I'm not old enough to remember The Governments of Lloyd George or Asquith, but the last time the Liberals were in Government it didn't work out to well for most Working People.
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Post by mercian on Feb 2, 2024 19:54:51 GMT
Ref. Labour dropping their Green pledge, this has energised Labours critics on here who follow other Parties who purport to occupy the Centre or Centre/left. However the thing for me is that I have had experience Of Labour Governments, and to my mind they have all been better than the only real alternative on offer. I'm not old enough to remember The Governments of Lloyd George or Asquith, but the last time the Liberals were in Government it didn't work out to well for most Working People. We did win WWII with one or two Liberals in the government - e.g. Archibald Sinclair SoS for Air |
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steve
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Post by steve on Feb 2, 2024 19:54:56 GMT
"If you "Liberal Democrat policies" all you get is stuff from 2019"
Our policy on brexit hasn't changed its official liberal democrat policy to work towards Rejoining.The vote in the lords on the Rwanda Bill was this week and the abandoned policies are Labour's.
This isn't about the Lib dems it's about lack of ambition by the Labour party, deflection is a Tory speciality not Labour's.
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Post by ptarmigan on Feb 2, 2024 20:02:02 GMT
A bit harsh. The detail in the article that seems to have so infuriated you is rather more nuanced. The green investment plan is being re-packaged rather than abandoned as far as I can see, and will be fully outlined much nearer the election. What I see here is an attempt to shoot a Tory fox early by removing the totemic and increasingly meaningless £28 billion headline price tag. Probably tactically sensible. Take some short term flak from political enemies (betrayal, flip-flopping, indecision etc) and then argue that economic reality and a firm commitment to fiscal rules when in office, has caused a thoughtful and responsible opposition to reframe a policy announced in very different economic times. Toynbee made some good points about this (see below). The £28 billion price tag was becoming a distraction. Binning it seems good politics to me in an election year. But, hey ho, I'm just a cynical old political game playing Hector. Tribal, expedient and intent on shafting this Tory government/party. With a view to getting rid of them. The fleas of a thousand camels will now no doubt infest my Corbynless armpits. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/01/labour-tory-28bn-green-spending-conservative-austerity🤣🐑 Well, I'm sorry, but I can't help but find the Labour Party infuriating! I'd quite like to have some sort of hope for the future and at the moment I have none. The £28bn was a specific commitment that was at the heart of Labour's policy offering and was popular with voters and yet the party aren't prepared to defend it because a historically unpopular Conservative government and their friends in the media are going to attack it? That's really feeble stuff. To be honest, most of the coverage of the green investment pledge I've seen in recent weeks seems to have been briefings from within the party about how it's likely to be dropped so I'm not sure whether they're kowtowing to right-wing media/the Tory party or the Labour Right have won an internal battle on this front but either way it doesn't fill me with much confidence in terms of how a prospective Labour government might govern. Shooting Tory foxes... I mean, by all means don't give your opponents any open goals but being so preoccupied with your opponents and attacks from the right (inevitable irrespective of what positions they adopt) to the point where you're barely offering any points of differentiation in policy terms is foolish. Playing the game on the Tories' terms narrows the terms of the debate, legitimises their policies and limits Labour's scope for action when in office. Besides, their argument is incoherent. Saying you can no long commit to the sums (why did the £28bn figure exist in the first place if it was so arbitrary?) which were supposed to be key to fuelling growth seems at odds with explicitly ruling out means of raising money (eg wealth taxes). And then you have other areas where Labour have defined policy positions - supportive of a cap on benefits but not bankers bonuses - and I think people can be forgiven for asking whose interests Labour are serving. |
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Post by mercian on Feb 2, 2024 20:24:44 GMT
ptarmiganIf there's little to choose between the two main parties it will weaken them both because a lot of voters will choose something else, whether it be LibDem, Reform, Green or SNP and PC where available. And possibly something more extreme in the future.
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Post by crossbat11 on Feb 2, 2024 20:37:56 GMT
Its the traditional thing isnt it ?. For any party. There's How to Win The Election. Then-if successful-How to Run the Country. And the two are entirely unrelated. At least with PR there's no pretence and voters know that it all depends on who forms the coalition after they voted. Which is why the safest route for an opposition is to let the governing party lose the election, which the Conservatives seem hell bent on doing. Wasn't it ever thus in an essentially two party system like ours? Successful oppositions exploit incumbent unpopularity by appearing a plausible alternative. It's the desperate oppositions who know they are losing who tend to bombard the unimpressed electorate with a plethora of increasingly implausible and detailed policy proposals. I'd argue that 2019 was a classic example of that. I thought McDonnell might announce plans to introduce a 10 hour working week on eve of poll. Of course, a lot of the calls for inspiration and policy detail are wholly disingenuous and made by people who want to trip up the opposition and force them into errors that can then give losing incumbents a chance. The Tories have still got their double whammy tax bombshell blimp posters in the attic, desperate for a chance to set them free. Incumbent on the dusky billboards. I think there is an element within the old Corbynite left of Labour who are desperately looking for sticks with which to beat Starmer too. He's a lying pledge-breaker red Tory in their eyes and always will be. There's no winning them over. This isn't to say that Starmer's Labour are pitch perfect and playing their hand to maximum effect. It would be an unusual opposition if it was doing any of those things. The route from opposition to government within our electoral system is precarious and missteps are inevitable. A bad one, and you're probably cooked, especially if you are a Labour opposition. The pre-election caution is both understandable and justified. Voters want an alternative government in the wings that reassures them. If it exists, then incumbent disillusion will result in incumbent removal. My rule of thumb is that the more Tories whine about lack of Labour policy detail, the more it proves that the tactic is working. Let's get the Tories out and then worry about how disappointing Labour are once they are governing. Not before. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2024 20:39:58 GMT
Yes, my beer consumption isn't quite what it used to be. 😤🤣 Not when you're paying anyway. Oddly enough he’s the same with latte and flapjack Pete. Maybe we should meet up - Richmond okay for you? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2024 20:42:27 GMT
I don’t really mind travelling the twelve miles to Richmond Pete but, to be honest, the Bowes Museum in Barnard Castle would suit me better.
(Might be a bit upmarket for you though.)
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Post by crossbat11 on Feb 2, 2024 21:06:00 GMT
I don’t really mind travelling the twelve miles to Richmond Pete but, to be honest, the Bowes Museum in Barnard Castle would suit me better. (Might be a bit upmarket for you though.) Don't fall for it it mercian. I did, to my eternal regret. My wife is still traumatised by the experience. It was all going very well until he got his guitar out. A few discordant bars into his first number and all hell let loose in the place. The man who called himself "Crofty" left quickly by a back door, leaving my wife and I to explain to irate customers and staff that we'd never seen him before in our lives. They didn't believe us and we were quickly escorted off the premises. After having had to settle the outstanding bill first. |
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Post by graham on Feb 2, 2024 21:33:11 GMT
Ref. Labour dropping their Green pledge, this has energised Labours critics on here who follow other Parties who purport to occupy the Centre or Centre/left. However the thing for me is that I have had experience Of Labour Governments, and to my mind they have all been better than the only real alternative on offer. I'm not old enough to remember The Governments of Lloyd George or Asquith, but the last time the Liberals were in Government it didn't work out to well for most Working People. I can remember the last two years of Macmillan as PM followed by Douglas-Home . I believe their Governments - and the period of Tory rule 1951 - 1964 as a whole- was better for most Working People than the Blair years which effectively cemented in Thatcherism. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 2, 2024 22:05:18 GMT
"If you "Liberal Democrat policies" all you get is stuff from 2019" Our policy on brexit hasn't changed its official liberal democrat policy to work towards Rejoining.The vote in the lords on the Rwanda Bill was this week and the abandoned policies are Labour's. This isn't about the Lib dems it's about lack of ambition by the Labour party, deflection is a Tory speciality not Labour's. Bit difficult for the Lib Dems to abandon any policies when they haven't announced any yet. For example what is the Lib Dem approach to green investment? Just making the point that people in glass houses should perhaps refrain from throwing stones. |
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Post by mercian on Feb 2, 2024 22:12:54 GMT
Not when you're paying anyway. Oddly enough he’s the same with latte and flapjack Pete. Maybe we should meet up - Richmond okay for you? I expect I could find it (using my pre-motorway roadmaps) but I'm not sure I've ever been that far north before. Be there dragons? EDIT: Checked Google Maps. Doncaster's about halfway. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2024 22:15:24 GMT
Oddly enough he’s the same with latte and flapjack Pete. Maybe we should meet up - Richmond okay for you? I expect I could find it (using my pre-motorway roadmaps) but I'm not sure I've ever been that far north before. Be there dragons? There’s a lot of hooligans. |
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Dave
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... I'm dreaming dreams, I'm scheming schemes, I'm building castles high ..
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Post by Dave on Feb 2, 2024 22:16:50 GMT
I'm not sure, I feel like I've let Dave down, the board down and myself down by not reporting the tories on under 20% this week You’re right - you have let me down - kindly up your game. |
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Post by mercian on Feb 2, 2024 22:21:49 GMT
I expect I could find it (using my pre-motorway roadmaps) but I'm not sure I've ever been that far north before. Be there dragons? There’s a lot of hooligans. That's a relief. We've got gangsters. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2024 22:23:27 GMT
I don’t really mind travelling the twelve miles to Richmond Pete but, to be honest, the Bowes Museum in Barnard Castle would suit me better. (Might be a bit upmarket for you though.) Don't fall for it it mercian . I did, to my eternal regret. My wife is still traumatised by the experience. It was all going very well until he got his guitar out. A few discordant bars into his first number and all hell let loose in the place. The man who called himself "Crofty" left quickly by a back door, leaving my wife and I to explain to irate customers and staff that we'd never seen him before in our lives. They didn't believe us and we were quickly escorted off the premises. After having had to settle the outstanding bill first. Problem is, your story of our meeting changes every time you make it up whereas mine - being true - remains the same. When we got the bill I pointed out - as any reasonable person would - that there were two of you and only one of me and, if we we were to share the bill then you should pay two thirds. At which point you looked at a pretend watch, cried out (in an embarrassing Middle Lands accent) - “ Bloimey! Iz thet the toime?!?” - and scarpered with Mrs Batty. (And I didn’t even bring a guitar.) |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2024 22:25:41 GMT
Oddly enough he’s the same with latte and flapjack Pete. Maybe we should meet up - Richmond okay for you? I expect I could find it (using my pre-motorway roadmaps) but I'm not sure I've ever been that far north before. Be there dragons? EDIT: Checked Google Maps. Doncaster's about halfway. That would be a sensible place for you to have a break on the way then. Maybe even a cheap b and b. and make a night if it - Donny is great and Scunthorpe is also worth a visit. |
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Post by mercian on Feb 2, 2024 22:35:36 GMT
@fecklessmiser
If we get Batty involved, on your principle of splitting the bill, you should come 2/3rd of the way to us, which I reckon would be around Nottingham. We could have a pint at The Trip To Jerusalem, if it's still allowed to be called that because of Crusade associations.
EDIT. I deleted the old joke about Scunthorpe.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2024 22:43:16 GMT
@fecklessmiser If we get Batty involved, on your principle of splitting the bill, you should come 2/3rd of the way to us, which I reckon would be around Nottingham. We could have a pint at The Trip To Jerusalem, if it's still allowed to be called that because of Crusade associations. EDIT. I deleted the old joke about Scunthorpe. There’s nothing funny about Scunthorpe matey. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2024 22:44:10 GMT
By the way - this is a polling site.
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Post by mercian on Feb 2, 2024 22:44:52 GMT
MarkI'm finding the main thread is taking longer and longer to load. I wonder if anyone else is getting this, and if so would a new thread help?
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Post by mercian on Feb 2, 2024 22:46:08 GMT
By the way - this is a polling site. Latest poll: Number of people agreeing to meet in Nottingham - 1 Others - 0 |
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steve
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Post by steve on Feb 2, 2024 22:52:51 GMT
The traitors delaying tactics have succeeded in putting back his trial date for the Washington insurrection case as his absurd appeal to the supreme court that a president can do no wrong has delayed any further proceedings. But step forward Alvin Bragg and another criminal charge in New York over the traitors attempt to silence various adult film stars by hush money payments and fraudulently accounting for them. These are the least serious charges he faces but still potentially carry 5 year prison terms and more significantly occurred before he became president so his get out of jail defence is irrelevant. It now looks highly likely that this will be the first criminal trial and it's scheduled to start in just 8 weeks time. youtu.be/0i7697Ca5bw?si=-ycOXQrSXX9lywed |
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Post by ptarmigan on Feb 2, 2024 23:00:29 GMT
ptarmigan If there's little to choose between the two main parties it will weaken them both because a lot of voters will choose something else, whether it be LibDem, Reform, Green or SNP and PC where available. And possibly something more extreme in the future. Agree. Imo voters are ill-served by a Tory-Labour duopoly when both parties remain in thrall to the same old failed neo-liberal economic orthodoxy. For what it's worth, although they may shed some votes here and there, I don't think this will be a big factor at the forthcoming election. I expect that Labour will win comfortably because people are simply fed up of the Tories and the mess they've made of running the country. Thereafter, who knows. Smaller parties could make inroads or a resurgent, and even nastier, Tory Party may be back in the box seat after an ineffectual period of Labour rule. The latter scenario certainly concerns me. |
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Post by davem on Feb 2, 2024 23:01:38 GMT
By the way - this is a polling site. Latest poll: Number of people agreeing to meet in Nottingham - 1 Others - 0 I missed earlier posts about this, are we trying to get a meeting of posters together? If so I would recommend Durham. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2024 23:04:29 GMT
Latest poll: Number of people agreeing to meet in Nottingham - 1 Others - 0 I missed earlier posts about this, are we trying to get a meeting of posters together? If so I would recommend Durham. Durham is good for me. Already have a nice cafe chosen where I meet my two best friend from Ponteland College, 1970/1973 - usually once a month. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Feb 2, 2024 23:04:46 GMT
pjw1961 While the Lib dems might well win 40+ seats we're not going to be the government and as it stands Labour are likely to be returned with a massive majority. I would have thought as a Labour member you might have considered that given this almost guaranteed huge win doing very little with it other than being more coherent than the current cluster shambles was a tad unambitious . I'm aware of our policies on most areas but frankly what they are is irrelevant to the abandoning of progressive policies by Labour. I really don't mind if it results in a slightly smaller Labour win to the benefit of lib dems, greens and the SNP but partisan defence seems a bit unlike you.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2024 23:05:43 GMT
There’s a lot of hooligans. That's a relief. We've got gangsters. I always assumed you were a gangster. |
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Post by ptarmigan on Feb 2, 2024 23:07:25 GMT
Wasn't it ever thus in an essentially two party system like ours? Successful oppositions exploit incumbent unpopularity by appearing a plausible alternative. It's the desperate oppositions who know they are losing who tend to bombard the unimpressed electorate with a plethora of increasingly implausible and detailed policy proposals. I'd argue that 2019 was a classic example of that. I thought McDonnell might announce plans to introduce a 10 hour working week on eve of poll. Of course, a lot of the calls for inspiration and policy detail are wholly disingenuous and made by people who want to trip up the opposition and force them into errors that can then give losing incumbents a chance. The Tories have still got their double whammy tax bombshell blimp posters in the attic, desperate for a chance to set them free. Incumbent on the dusky billboards. I think there is an element within the old Corbynite left of Labour who are desperately looking for sticks with which to beat Starmer too. He's a lying pledge-breaker red Tory in their eyes and always will be. There's no winning them over. This isn't to say that Starmer's Labour are pitch perfect and playing their hand to maximum effect. It would be an unusual opposition if it was doing any of those things. The route from opposition to government within our electoral system is precarious and missteps are inevitable. A bad one, and you're probably cooked, especially if you are a Labour opposition. The pre-election caution is both understandable and justified. Voters want an alternative government in the wings that reassures them. If it exists, then incumbent disillusion will result in incumbent removal. My rule of thumb is that the more Tories whine about lack of Labour policy detail, the more it proves that the tactic is working. Let's get the Tories out and then worry about how disappointing Labour are once they are governing. Not before. Well, left-wing firebrands such as, erm, Tony Blair's former political secretary don't seem much convinced by Starmer's strategy either, so I'm not sure the left really have to look that "desperately for sticks". |
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