steve
Member
Posts: 12,343
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Post by steve on Jan 28, 2024 17:07:15 GMT
DaveI'm quite happy with my career choice I've saved lives and arrested murderers and been commended for my bravery. I doubt this would have happened however well paid a job I might have had at the BBC!
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neilj
Member
Posts: 6,087
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Post by neilj on Jan 28, 2024 17:21:15 GMT
I hadn't quite realised the similarities between the run upto the 1997 election and now. In particular many pundits saying there was a lack of enthusiasm for Labour and it was more a vote against the Tories. Perhaps it was the song 'Things can only get better' that distorted my memory and made me think there was enthusiasm for Labour?
Another explanation here
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Post by davem on Jan 28, 2024 17:47:41 GMT
I have just experienced an example of broken Britain. I love 9 miles from the Stadium of Light in Sunderland, my son lives in Leith 140 miles away. We left the Vaux taproom close to the ground at the same time. He got home to his flat in Edinburgh before I got home using public transport. Two buses failed to show up, so I got another one which goes a long way around taking an extra 45 mins, but it would get me home. Part way through the journey the relief driver fails to turn up, rather than wait I walked the last two miles home, still getting home before the bus I was on . If we want people to use public transport this is just not good enough. 9 miles in which direction? I'm 17 miles. Rickleton in Washington.
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 28, 2024 18:23:48 GMT
neilj
In reality, has any UK general election in recent history been decided by an irresistible wave of enthusiasm for the opposition? Haven't they always been determined essentially by disillusionment/boredom/disgust with the incumbents? The opposition, as the only viable alternative governing party in our two party system,, become the de facto beneficiaries. The only thing that can stop that time-honoured default process is fear of the opposition. They don't have to be much liked nor loved, just not feared.
Of course, the governing party and their supporters always claim, "on the doorstep", that there is "no enthusiasm for the opposition", but they aren't really the most reliable or trustworthy of reporters on all that, are they? Nor are selective focus groups. Opinion polls are better guides but imperfect ones.
Was Cameron ushered in enthusiastically in 2010? Heath in 1970? Thatcher in 1979? Wilson in 1964? Blair could claim some enthusiasm for New Labour in 1997, but maybe it was exaggerated and what we were really seeing was just overwhelming relief that some plausible alternative to Toryism had emerged after 18 long years.
Starmer shouldn't get too worried by all this talk and kerfuffle and it really was extraordinary to see Kuenssberg give it such coverage and attach so much significance to it in her programme this morning.
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Post by barbara on Jan 28, 2024 18:24:31 GMT
9 miles in which direction? I'm 17 miles. Rickleton in Washington. Nice area. I looked in Rickleton and Harraton when I was buying in 2013. I have a friend in Fatfield. I live in Sheraton just off the A19 in Durham county near the Hartlepool turn off.
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Post by alec on Jan 28, 2024 18:27:45 GMT
neilj - re parallels with '97: my recollection (could be wrong) was that there was indeed no great sense of a groundswell for Labour, which was trumped by revulsion of the Tories, until quite late in the day. I think Labour's campaign developed a sense of urgency and impending change, and that's how we recall the mood in hindsight.
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 28, 2024 18:32:05 GMT
Nice area. I looked in Rickleton and Harraton when I was buying in 2013. I have a friend in Fatfield. I live in Sheraton just off the A19 in Durham county near the Hartlepool turn off. I like the sound of Fatfield. I used to live near a small village called Thinlea.
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Post by barbara on Jan 28, 2024 18:41:25 GMT
Nice area. I looked in Rickleton and Harraton when I was buying in 2013. I have a friend in Fatfield. I live in Sheraton just off the A19 in Durham county near the Hartlepool turn off. I like the sound of Fatfield. I used to live near a small village called Thinlea. You'd be spoilt for choice up here in the North East. Apart from Wide Open and Pity Me, there is No Place, Once Brewed and Twice Brewed
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 28, 2024 18:43:50 GMT
neilj In reality, has any UK general election in recent history been decided by an irresistible wave of enthusiasm for the opposition? Haven't they always been determined essentially by disillusionment/boredom/disgust with the incumbents? The opposition, as the only viable alternative governing party in our two party system,, become the de facto beneficiaries. The only thing that can stop that time-honoured default process is fear of the opposition. They don't have to much liked nor loved, just not feared. Of course, the governing party and their supporters always claim, "on the doorstep", that there is "no enthusiasm for the opposition", but they aren't really the most reliable or trustworthy of reporters on all that, are they? Nor are selective focus groups. Opinion polls are better guides but imperfect ones. Was Cameron ushered in enthusiastically in 2010? Heath in 1970? Thatcher in 1979? Wilson in 1964? Blair could claim some enthusiasm for New Labour in 1997, but maybe it was exaggerated and what we were really seeing was just overwhelming relief that some plausible alternative to Toryism had emerged after 18 long years. Starmer shouldn't get too worried by all this talk and kerfuffle and it really was extraordinary to see Kuenssberg give it such coverage and attach so much significance to it in her programme this morning. Reminds me of why for years I have not watched, listened to or read (other than language services) any news or current affairs emanating from the bbc. But perhaps I am just 'envious' of them..😀 Haven't seen the once common roc 'envy' trope for a while, once so beloved of the more unpleasant right winger who lacking any understanding of moral principle, justice and altruism themselves believes those on the left must in fact be motivated by envy as that's what motivates said right winger who can't conceive of any higher principle. How very 1980s. I thought these days the Tory party was for the 'left behind' and the wealthy are all voting Labour now aren't they? 😉 They believe anyone with loc principles must be indulging in performance (virtue signalling) or envy. Says a lot more about them than about us, and absolutely nothing good.
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,421
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Post by pjw1961 on Jan 28, 2024 18:55:09 GMT
neilj - re parallels with '97: my recollection (could be wrong) was that there was indeed no great sense of a groundswell for Labour, which was trumped by revulsion of the Tories, until quite late in the day. I think Labour's campaign developed a sense of urgency and impending change, and that's how we recall the mood in hindsight. I agree that 1997 was primarily an anti-Conservative vote, but I would offer two counterpoints. Firstly Blair himself was very popular with sky high personal ratings. Secondly, while there was clear anti-Conservative tactical voting, in those seats where the Labour and Lib Dem 1992 position was that both were in contention, in 1997 it was clearly Labour that profited more, suggesting that there was some pro-Labour feeling as well as anti-Conservative. Hence why Labour were able to win a number of seats from third place. Starmer lacks Blair's personal appeal, but there is some polling evidence (reflected in the MRPs) that where the Lib Dems are not the clear tactical choice it is Labour that is being favoured by voters, as in 1997.
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 28, 2024 19:00:26 GMT
I like the sound of Fatfield. I used to live near a small village called Thinlea. You'd be spoilt for choice up here in the North East. Apart from Wide Open and Pity Me, there is No Place, Once Brewed and Twice Brewed Pity Me is a great place name. Lots of people walking around looking extremely sorry for themselves, I imagine. Rather like Redditch. I think we stayed close to the Twice Brewed Inn when my wife and I walked the Hadrian's Wall path in 2018. Near the famous, now sadly felled, Sycamore Tree, if I remember rightly. Is there a place called Twice Brewed, or is it just a pub name?
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Post by expatr on Jan 28, 2024 20:00:42 GMT
neilj In reality, has any UK general election in recent history been decided by an irresistible wave of enthusiasm for the opposition? Haven't they always been determined essentially by disillusionment/boredom/disgust with the incumbents? The opposition, as the only viable alternative governing party in our two party system,, become the de facto beneficiaries. The only thing that can stop that time-honoured default process is fear of the opposition. They don't have to be much liked nor loved, just not feared. Of course, the governing party and their supporters always claim, "on the doorstep", that there is "no enthusiasm for the opposition", but they aren't really the most reliable or trustworthy of reporters on all that, are they? Nor are selective focus groups. Opinion polls are better guides but imperfect ones. Was Cameron ushered in enthusiastically in 2010? Heath in 1970? Thatcher in 1979? Wilson in 1964? Blair could claim some enthusiasm for New Labour in 1997, but maybe it was exaggerated and what we were really seeing was just overwhelming relief that some plausible alternative to Toryism had emerged after 18 long years. Starmer shouldn't get too worried by all this talk and kerfuffle and it really was extraordinary to see Kuenssberg give it such coverage and attach so much significance to it in her programme this morning. RE: last sentence - absurd and ridiculous without a doubt - sadly not in the least extraordinary - and it really really should be.
Second out of the door after Gibb come the election I suspect - off to GBeebies
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Post by robbiealive on Jan 28, 2024 20:54:49 GMT
There is one thing that unites people on this board: Nats, ROCs, LOCs, centrists, all detest the BBC & excoriate its political coverage: it does get a bit tedious. Sunday has become burn-Kuenssenberg-alive-at-the-stake-day (perhaps with good reason). Can it really be that the BBC is biased against everyone & everything at all times. (Latest installment is Capt birdseye , see below.) The BBC has come under tremendous & illegitimate pressure from this government. It has also been burdened with numerous 3rd-rate Secs of State, of whom Ms Fraser is the latets example. She is clearly taking orders from above. crossbat11 . I think we can agree that A. Neil, while right wing, is a pretty good political interviewer. Can anyone on here name a better TV political interviewer. There are some excellent ones on BBC radio. (Ouch). The problem these days is that once a politician gets a top post they pick & choose their interviewers & indeed rarely appear. birdseye . " There is a cultural anti Tory bias on the BBC which comes not from policy so much as the demographic from which they recruit. The mainly middle class arts graduates who go straight into the Beeb from academia which itself is overwhelmingly left leaning." Could be straight out of any right-wing paper whose criticism of the BBC is as relentless as that of this site. The next one is a real peach of rhetorical nonsense. " PPS Perhaps surprisingly , all bar 1 of the directors is white. Could be 2 or mabe he has been on hols to somewhere warm. Bit surprising for such a woke organisation." He searches for evidence of woke, can't find it, & yet somehow turns its absence [which he should welcome!] into a criticism of the organisation anyway! It's a woke organisation that has failed in its mission to be woke. Disgraceful! Is s/he spoofing us? On the footi front shocking that the crowd violence at the Black Country Derby not noted by the experts. The Guardian vid omits scenes of police using batons on the grounds they are "undesirable." www.theguardian.com/football/video/2024/jan/28/crowd-trouble-halts-west-brom-v-wolves-fa-cup-derby-video
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2024 21:01:43 GMT
Birdseye isaid … What do you have to offer other than envy based prejudice? Despite, sadly, being in charge of our nations for the last 14 years, what have the right in this country had to offer, or deliver these last 14 long years? Anyway, back on point, stupidity like this post seems to be a right-wing mantra. How arrogant. How detached from reality. How presumptive it is - if only we were successful - if only we weren’t envious - we’d go along with your shitty, busted, out of time thinking. Hint for you - I don’t envy you. I don’t envy your politics. Your lot have had their time. If it makes in any easier for you to feel superior as your failed politics slips down the drain, then crack on. So, no envy on my part - just a delight that your lot’s time is done and maybe that will temper your no-reason-for it condescension in the future. Well said Dave. Actually just wanted your response to that offensive, bird-brained** post to be seen again. Your anger is well warranted. ** Apologies: (To any birds reading.) You are actually VERY clever……especially if you ARE actually reading this.
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Post by mercian on Jan 28, 2024 21:05:38 GMT
neilj Re 1997. I can see why in the run-up to the election enthusiasm for Labour might not have obvious, but their vote increased by 2m compared to 1992, whereas Tories' fell by 4.5m. It was and still is the second highest number of votes they have ever got. 1951 being highest. Therefore it's hard to see how people writing after the event tried to play it down. It could end up being the same this time. There doesn't appear to be wild enthusiasm for Labour but the result could still be dramatic because of a collapse in the Tory vote, and a feeling of 'time for a change' from usual non-voters. Ignoring other parties, which I shouldn't do because the SNP in particular will be significant, if the Tories lose and Labour gain as many seats as they did in 1997 they would have 194 and 344 respectively. That would be a result I wouldn't be too unhappy with. Assuming Labour are going to win it would be a large enough majority to get most stuff through but small enough to 'keep them honest'.
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Jan 28, 2024 21:13:26 GMT
Nice area. I looked in Rickleton and Harraton when I was buying in 2013. I have a friend in Fatfield. I live in Sheraton just off the A19 in Durham county near the Hartlepool turn off. I like the sound of Fatfield. I used to live near a small village called Thinlea. Obeseville around here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2024 21:28:24 GMT
neilj Re 1997. I can see why in the run-up to the election enth but their vote increased by 2m compared to 1992, whereas Tories' fell by 4.5m. It was and still is the second highest number of votes they have ever got. 1951 being highest. Therefore it's hard to see how people writing after the event tried to play it down. It could end up being the same this time. There doesn't appear to be wild enthusiasm for Labour but the result could still be dramatic because of a collapse in the Tory vote, and a feeling of 'time for a change' from usual non-voters. Ignoring other parties, which I shouldn't do because the SNP in particular will be significant, if the Tories gain and Labour lose as many seats as they did in 1997 they would have 194 and 344 respectively. That would be a result I wouldn't be too unhappy with. Assuming Labour are going to win it would be a large enough majority to get most stuff through but small enough to 'keep them honest'. I'm not one to try and find parallels with the political past. I don't have the psephology and I think autres temps autres mœurs probably applies to politics as much as real life. I have a recollection that "sleaze" was a big component of the anti Tory sentiment in 1997. This time I think it might be something more fundamental. Wouldn't be surprised if it is a bigger shock this time. What is an "honest" KS !?-or even a dishonest one ?. He realises-as do we all-that such is the depth of disappointment & dislike for this Conservative Government that he doesn't have to say anything of significance ; which he determinedly does. Hopefully he will start saying something meaningful after we all put his feet under the Cabinet Office table ?
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Post by robbiealive on Jan 28, 2024 21:31:36 GMT
Obviously my new avatar will only be used on Sunday.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 28, 2024 21:35:36 GMT
Obviously my new avatar will only be used on Sunday. Yikes. One thing that always strikes me about Kuennsberg is how mind-bogglingly seriously she takes herself.
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Jan 28, 2024 21:39:22 GMT
Obviously my new avatar will only be used on Sunday. Is it Andrew Neil or Andrew Marr for the rest of the week? Us Andy's, apart from the Prince, rule
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Post by mercian on Jan 28, 2024 21:40:07 GMT
Obviously my new avatar will only be used on Sunday. Yikes. One thing that always strikes me about Kuennsberg is how mind-bogglingly seriously she takes herself. One thing that strikes me about her is her big conk.
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Post by davem on Jan 28, 2024 21:43:23 GMT
You'd be spoilt for choice up here in the North East. Apart from Wide Open and Pity Me, there is No Place, Once Brewed and Twice Brewed Pity Me is a great place name. Lots of people walking around looking extremely sorry for themselves, I imagine. Rather like Redditch. I think we stayed close to the Twice Brewed Inn when my wife and I walked the Hadrian's Wall path in 2018. Near the famous, now sadly felled, Sycamore Tree, if I remember rightly. Is there a place called Twice Brewed, or is it just a pub name? Always remember there was a bus which went to No Place and a photo of the bus with its destination sign kept being used as a joke in several newspapers. But on wider point, we are under strict orders never tell anybody about the countryside in Weardale and Tynedale or the stunning unspoiled coastline, as we want keep it secret. Sadly having told you about these places I will now have to be not hiding. 😎
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Post by richardstamper on Jan 28, 2024 21:56:07 GMT
birdseye More than half of the BBC directors and " stars" attended public schools more BBC directors are alumni of fee charging elitist , Tory prime minister generator, Eton college alone than all comprehensive schools in the UK combined. Eton charges around £50,000 a year, higher than the take home income of an individual other than the top 15% , to suggest "The mainly middle class arts graduates who go straight into the Beeb from academia which itself is overwhelmingly left leaning." Is total bollocks . Thats a crude assumption that your school dictates your politics and not only that but that what an interviewer like Laura does is dictated by the BBC directors. My daughter worked for many years at high level in the BBC trust and what I have written is based on her inside experience. What do you have to offer other than envy based prejudice? P.S. Having some time to spare I trawled through the bio of the BBC board and found not a single person who had been to Eton or indeed any other of the top private schools. Yes I did find several who had been to minor public schools plus some to grammar schools and state schools but that proves nothing much. Given how poor state schools are it follows that any middle class family who can afford the do the best for their offspring will send them private. Personally I would prefer the board of an organisation like the BBC to have been well educated. Wouldnt you|? PPS Perhaps surprisingly , all bar 1 of the directors is white. Could be 2 or mabe he has been on hols to somewhere warm. Bit surprising for such a woke organisation. Just on the point of one's school dictating ones politics, there is evidence that private schooling does make one more likely to have right-wing attitudes and vote Tory, even after controlling for "social origins at birth, cultural and material capital, academic achievements and early social class destination". Which is gratifying speaking as a parent of a middle class family that could have afforded to send our children to private schools but did not because we were convinced of the harm that private schooling does both to those so educated and to society as a whole. Nice to be vindicated.
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Post by mercian on Jan 28, 2024 21:57:26 GMT
There's a place called World's End near me, which always struck me as a bit odd because we're pretty much in the middle of England. The only reason I can think of is because it's on the Birmingham side of the border with the Black Country and the yam-yams might as well be from another world.
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Post by alec on Jan 28, 2024 22:05:18 GMT
barbara - "Hartlepool turn off" Yup. That's about right. For the unreconstructed communists among us, you could always move to Moscow, just off Hadrian's Wall to the north east of Greenhead. Yes - it's cold there in winter. And almost as miserable as Putin's version. (For some reason this place name chat makes me think of the old beer advert; "Florida's horrider than Whitley Bay - no McEwan's Scotch in the USA". After that, any ambition to visit Florida vanished.
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Post by robbiealive on Jan 28, 2024 22:13:51 GMT
Obviously my new avatar will only be used on Sunday. Yikes. One thing that always strikes me about Kuennsberg is how mind-bogglingly seriously she takes herself. & steamdrivenandyYou may recall Hate Week in 1984. "Hate Week is designed to increase as much as possible the population's hatred of the current enemy of the totalitarian Party, whichever of the two opposing super-states that may be."This is Hate Sunday. Each week will feature an enemy of the people for site mass villification. Funnily I have reread just about all of Saint George in recent years, save 1984. One can see how clever the ideas were, but it's just too depressing.
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Post by thylacine on Jan 28, 2024 22:21:55 GMT
Yikes. One thing that always strikes me about Kuennsberg is how mind-bogglingly seriously she takes herself. One thing that strikes me about her is her big conk. Nothing wrong with a big nose. It lends a patrician air I believe.
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Post by thylacine on Jan 28, 2024 22:28:18 GMT
Obviously my new avatar will only be used on Sunday. I believe @markadmin should be alerted. There must be board rules against such baiting. Almost Trevoresque!
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,421
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Post by pjw1961 on Jan 28, 2024 22:36:14 GMT
Re the BBC discussion it is amusing that "Westminster Hour" currently on Radio 4 as I write has the following political 'balance' on its panel - 1 Conservative MP, 1 Conservative journalist (Katy Balls of the Spectator), 1 crossbench peer who is an ex-Conservative and 1 Labour MP. Somehow this feels typical.
I think the reason that people from different political viewpoints can claim to detect bias is that the BBC is a large organsation with a lot of different output. The problem for those of us who are LoC is largely the BBC News Department, which suffered an orchestrated right-wing take over in the early Cameron years and remains heavily tilted rightwards. However, quite a lot of the BBC's drama output does have a liberal flavour - Russell T Davies' new Doctor Who for example.
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oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,126
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Post by oldnat on Jan 28, 2024 22:39:16 GMT
barbara - "Hartlepool turn off" Yup. That's about right. For the unreconstructed communists among us, you could always move to Moscow, just off Hadrian's Wall to the north east of Greenhead. Yes - it's cold there in winter. And almost as miserable as Putin's version. (For some reason this place name chat makes me think of the old beer advert; "Florida's horrider than Whitley Bay - no McEwan's Scotch in the USA". After that, any ambition to visit Florida vanished. There's also a hamlet in Ayrshire called Moscow - renamed as that in the early 19th century, allegedly to mark Napoleon's retreat from Moscow. The original name was "Moss-hall" or "Moss-haw", probably derived from the Brittonic words maɣes, "field" and coll, "hazel", which Welsh speakers will probably recognise.
Of course, they would only speak Welsh when mercian was around.
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