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Post by bardin1 on Jan 20, 2024 13:25:37 GMT
Up with larks this morning. Early train to London Euston to catch this morning, via Birmingham New Street. Off to watch Leyton Orient v Bolton Wanderers this afternoon. Brisbane Road is one of the few London football grounds I've not yet visited. Accordingly, this will be new ground number 3 I've been to this season; Field Mill and Brunton Park the other two. The Den, Edgerley Park and St James Park are three more to chalk off before the season ends, I hope. Silly adventures from a football loving kid who has never quite grown up. Fond memories of the orient - I lived above Leytonstone Library in the early 80s and went along to the games. They also have a big link up with Hearts due to both teams having signed up en massse in the first world war. We (hearts) are playing them in a friendly this year to celebrate the connection as part of our 150th anniversary celebrations. www.heartsfc.co.uk/blogs/news/150-years-celebrations-24-25-pre-season-friendlyMy brother wrote a song about it which troubled the bottom of the charts (no20 in the BBC independent charts) - there's a poignant photographic version here, which makes me think about the Ukranian War now www.youtube.com/watch?v=cil_g6p_jPY
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Post by shevii on Jan 20, 2024 13:59:39 GMT
I might well have been at the same game. I was an amateur QPR fan (Liverpool are my real alma mater) and I had a mate who was obsessed with attending matches anywhere in London. What I remember about Orient was that my mate (no longer with us 😪) had a spot by one of those metal barriers on the terraces which were next to where the coppers were stationed. He was not particularly timid but visiting football in the 1970s was best approached with caution, though the thing that scared me was going down the stairs from the North End at Highbury where it felt you could forget about using your legs and be conveyed along by the crowd with your feet dangling in the air. And this was way before Hillsborough. I had that very experience at an Arsenal match. It wasn't at Highbury, though. It was at Huish, Yeovil, in a 3rd Round FA Cup tie in 1971. I was eleven at the time, standing on the home terrace and part of a 14,500 attendance. I was literally swept off my feet by the movement of the crowd several times. Rather disconcerting, but incredibly exciting to be part of such an occasion. My first experience of a 'proper' match before a full house. It was a very cold day and I can still remember a chap drinking Veno's cough mixture neat from the bottle. It was a Veno's bottle, anyway, but it might conceivably have contained something even more fortifying. There were other disasters around the same time though like Ibrox in 1971 and Chelsea had posters up at the ground on the stairs "remember Ibrox" for people to take care. I remember one game in the early 70's where inexplicably my dad decided we should leave before the end (maybe this was my fault and I was pestering him to leave as well) as Chelsea were 2-0 down against Arsenal with 5 minutes left and as we were going down the stairs a big cheer went up and I was all for turning around (as everyone else was doing) but my dad was all Health and Safety gone mad and, remembering Ibrox, said we had to carry on down. Then another cheer went up and I don't think I have ever left another game early in my life!
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Post by jib on Jan 20, 2024 14:20:55 GMT
You helped spread the lies. You are complicit in Johnson's, Gove's, and Farage's treason. And you still spread the same lies. And you try to deflect from this with your tedious attacks on Steve. It is so obvious. It's almost as if you know you were wrong but can't bring yourself to admit it... Don't accuse me of lying. I have a different viewpoint to you, but do not call me a liar with some casual dig. The axe I grind with Steve is a question of viewpoint as well, and I'm sure you find it tedious. Tough.
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Post by Old Southendian on Jan 20, 2024 14:27:35 GMT
Alternatively he's just a useful idiot, for which he is a self made man While I do understand the term "useful idiot", and it may be appropriate in this case, I have to say that I find it difficult to think of him as anything other than an utterly useless idiot.
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Post by mark61 on Jan 20, 2024 15:17:17 GMT
More football memories from the 70's, this time following Birmingham City, as a teenager, FA Cup 4th round away at Derby, Football Special out of New st. Game called off whilst on train, on arrival at Derby Station Marched unceremoniously by Plod ( they weren't as Nice as our Steve!) over the footbridge and straight on a waiting train back to Brum, time in Derby about 90 seconds. Got a lift back up to Derby from a neighbour for the Tuesday night rescheduled tie, he and his son had tickets in the seats whilst I was penned in with the faithful, First 30 mins Derby with Don Masson, Bruce Rioch and Charlie George were suburb on a Pitch with barely a blade of grass on it and were 2-0 up before Keith Bertschin pulled one back, but we lost 2-1 as I recall. Nothing beats a Night Match in my opinion I was nearly crushed to death on the way out, saved by a huge bloke who saw I was in difficulties and Braced against the throng to let me out! you did take your life in your hands at Football in those days. Many memorable matches back then, the ones against West Brom always seemed to be Crackers! Another Glorious memory was beating the Villa home and away (aggregate 5-0 ) in our first season in the Premier League, that's one for Crossbat
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Post by jen on Jan 20, 2024 15:22:55 GMT
You helped spread the lies. You are complicit in Johnson's, Gove's, and Farage's treason. And you still spread the same lies. And you try to deflect from this with your tedious attacks on Steve. It is so obvious. It's almost as if you know you were wrong but can't bring yourself to admit it... Don't accuse me of lying. I have a different viewpoint to you, but do not call me a liar with some casual dig. The axe I grind with Steve is a question of viewpoint as well, and I'm sure you find it tedious. Tough. There's nothing wrong with a different viewpoint. But you are a serial liar. It is not a casual dig. Let's start with the childish nonsense about a European superstate... let's continue with the madness about Brexit having no ill effects... shall we carry on with remainers being at fault for everything? And by all means continue with your attacks on Steve. I couldn't care less. My point is that it is obvious why you behave this way, Mr. Deflector... hahahahahaha!
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Post by jib on Jan 20, 2024 15:48:25 GMT
There's nothing wrong with a different viewpoint. But you are a serial liar. It is not a casual dig. Let's start with the childish nonsense about a European superstate... let's continue with the madness about Brexit having no ill effects... shall we carry on with remainers being at fault for everything? And by all means continue with your attacks on Steve. I couldn't care less. My point is that it is obvious why you behave this way, Mr. Deflector... hahahahahaha! Again you call me a liar. I'm afraid your juvenile political compass only has two points - (1) I'm always right on right and (2) Everyone else is a liar. The Superstate project is a journey we have opted out of. Too bad for you there.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 20, 2024 17:07:15 GMT
"The axe I grind with Steve is a question of viewpoint" Well that's one way of looking at it🤔 20- posts personally attacking Ed Davey since Christmas.
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Post by jen on Jan 20, 2024 18:16:07 GMT
There's nothing wrong with a different viewpoint. But you are a serial liar. It is not a casual dig. Let's start with the childish nonsense about a European superstate... let's continue with the madness about Brexit having no ill effects... shall we carry on with remainers being at fault for everything? And by all means continue with your attacks on Steve. I couldn't care less. My point is that it is obvious why you behave this way, Mr. Deflector... hahahahahaha! Again you call me a liar. I'm afraid your juvenile political compass only has two points - (1) I'm always right on right and (2) Everyone else is a liar. The Superstate project is a journey we have opted out of. Too bad for you there. FFS, the "superstate project" doesn't exist. You know nothing of European political realities, so you make stuff up. But hey, keep digging... And you know nothing of my political compass. You can try to keep deflecting but the game is up. Quite funny really...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2024 18:43:49 GMT
At least he doesn't refer to you "sonny" jen...
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jan 20, 2024 19:17:32 GMT
A few days back in response to a lament from Graham on former industrial areas voting Tory, I offered the opinion that Labour should try harder at understanding and offering something to the ex-Labour voters in the 'red wall' because they have had a rough deal in the last 45 years and was promptly accused by three posters of "excusing racists". So I am producing this extract from the Guardian's piece on Ashfield that makes my point perhaps better than I managed to: "It doesn’t take long to discover why many here feel abandoned. While terms like “red wall seat” and “left-behind town” have become a political shorthand for these former industrial heartlands, it is easy to detect a deeply held pride in the area’s past that has been bruised over decades. That civic pride is personified in Kirkby by Christine Kidger, 75, whose free labour has kept the town’s heritage centre (a shop front just off the high street) going for years. She previously championed a commemorative mosaic near the site of Summit Colliery, Kirkby, which has since become a business park. “I left school when I was 15,” she explained. “I could have given a job up on the Friday and I could’ve had a new job for the Monday. When you’ve got your pit, you’ve got your community, haven’t you? The pit closed in ’69. Then of course all the factories went. A lot of the shops are gone. All we’ve got really now is takeaways and barbers and nail places. It’s sad when you think about how it was and now.” It is a lament instantly recognised by Gloria De Piero, who represented the area for Labour until 2019. “If you’d gone back 30 or 40 years, all the men would have worked on the pits and the women would have worked in textiles. There were good, well-paid jobs. Now, people are working, but not paid very well. There’s a great community spirit. People care about law and order, border controls. But they’re typically more left wing economically. They know that they’re getting a raw deal.”" www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/20/i-dont-think-theyre-bothered-about-people-up-here-voters-in-lee-andersons-ashfield-turning-their-back-on-all-politicians
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Jan 20, 2024 20:48:04 GMT
I went to an Orient/QPR game circa 1974, though I don't remember anything about it. You're lucky I policed a Milwall v Fulham game in 1982 and it scarred me for life! Wouldn't policing a Millwall v anyone game scar you for life? The Millwall 'fans' were at it again this afternoon. Objects were thrown at the QPR goalkeeper and other players. Apparently at one point one QPR player got so angry that he threw anitem back and could face disciplinary action. Re left behind places. A mile or so from our place there was a pit called Leycett which I believe closed in the '80's. Around the pit was a community , rows of terraced houses, school, welfare, church etc. When the pit closed virtually the whole lot was bulldozed. There are a couple of buildings left that have been domesticated and the local recycling waste centre is the main activity up there now. You'd never know there'd ever been a coal mine there, just fields and countryside. I do wonder where all the folk who lived in the village went and why and how the destruction of so many dwellings was allowed in those more enlightened days.
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Post by jib on Jan 20, 2024 21:20:28 GMT
FFS, the "superstate project" doesn't exist. You know nothing of European political realities, so you make stuff up. But hey, keep digging... And you know nothing of my political compass. You can try to keep deflecting but the game is up. Quite funny really... I honestly had you marked down as a SWP anti-Fascist type, but you seem to be a fervent supporter of the EU Superstate project and the delivery of a true Single Market. Maybe you're a Lib Dem?
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 20, 2024 23:21:15 GMT
Here's the stable genius confusing his political rival Nikki Hayley six times with the former speaker of the house Nancy Pelosi and lying about both of them. Easy mistake to make one's a 53 year old person of Indian ethnicity and the others an 83 year old woman of Italian decent But they are of course both powerful women so for the traitor an easy mistake to make. youtu.be/TkjH8uFtdO4?si=28PRNmj20WBGlkBB
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 20, 2024 23:45:33 GMT
less of a general feel and more of an actual fact that con deliberately cut funding for looking after the poor and the nhs etc. With the result thousands died. Quite possibly more than died from covid. 'More or less' calculated 2000 extra died last december alone because of growing waiting time in A&E. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you want more people to die of Covid? Youre wrong, have you not read my posts properly? What I said was firstly there isnt evidence that absent the special interventions like lockdowns and closing schools matters would have been worse. Or, if they had been worse theres still good evidence if instead of spending all that money on what we did, you could have saved it and spent it on the NHS in more conventional ways, such as cutting A&E waiting times, and quickly saved more lives more cheaply. The final outcome of this all round the world said we did pretty badly for a developed country, but outcomes were much the same everywhere if you allow for the general capaibility of care services at the start. Some countries did markedly better, but no one has come up with any credible explanation why, except that they were already immune through catching related bugs beforehand.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 20, 2024 23:48:34 GMT
Worth reading the whole thread, but I've been saying there was a real possibility of something similar for a while now The polls have been dire for the tories for 16 months now and I can't see what will shift it. . Every day, another bad news story. Talking of hammers, some more will be falling silent in Port Talbot.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 21, 2024 0:03:20 GMT
.I just don't understand the factions being so active and visible. There is the sense of a death wish about the Conservative Party. One can only hope that the Centre Right Hole which will appear after their demise will be filled by Starmer's Labour Party. Con gained power in 2010 with a number of dodges, but one of them was anti EU rhetoric, which doubled down into the brexit referendum in 2015 after it failed to get them an outright win in 2010. This wasnt traditional con policy, it led to a lot of people leaving parliament. Brexit happened, that ship has sailed, the nation is increasingly unhappy with it. It patently failed to create a national renaissance. Without euroscepticism its arguable con could never have won in 2010, nor 2015. Difficult to take that too far because in the face of another failure in 2010 without it desperation would have mounted to use any weapon they could find against lab, so it seems likely they would eventually have taken on Farage to steal his policies. Had labour clearly campaigned for remain, maybe they would have won, but then the issue would be live still today. As things stand though, without that 10% vote share from brexit, suddenly con have no credible base sufficient to win an election. Worse, as the brexit outcome becomes worse and worse, the sense of betrayal by those voters will just keep growin, con has to eventually repudiate its past policy. It will need a new set of faces, just as Cameron was the new accepable face of conservatism. And those old brexity faces have to go. Hardly surprising then that they stage a last stand before they go into opposition and ultimatly get sidelined by con as it seeks to built a new coalition with a chance to win. By now there must be 100 con MPs resigned to losing, or who have already indicated they wont stand. Probably 100 who still feel safe, come what may. Thats a majority with no interest in an early election. As to the others, its pretty much damned if they do and damned if they dont whatever action they support now. Carry on claiming their policies will work in th face of derision, or reverse everything and be laughed out as hypocrits.
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Post by eor on Jan 21, 2024 0:32:08 GMT
.I just don't understand the factions being so active and visible. There is the sense of a death wish about the Conservative Party. One can only hope that the Centre Right Hole which will appear after their demise will be filled by Starmer's Labour Party. Con gained power in 2010 with a number of dodges, but one of them was anti EU rhetoric, which doubled down into the brexit referendum in 2015 after it failed to get them an outright win in 2010. This wasnt traditional con policy, it led to a lot of people leaving parliament. Brexit happened, that ship has sailed, the nation is increasingly unhappy with it. It patently failed to create a national renaissance. Without euroscepticism its arguable con could never have won in 2010, nor 2015. Conservative leaders in the decade prior to the 2010 GE, chronological order; William Hague Iain Duncan Smith Michael Howard David Cameron And you think it was deliberately getting more anti-EU that got them over the line and into a coalition with the most pro-EU major party? You do argue yourself into some really odd knots sometimes.
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Post by peterbell on Jan 21, 2024 0:32:57 GMT
@danny said to mercian :- Youre wrong, have you not read my posts properly? If mercian is like most on here he will try not to read them at all.
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isa
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Post by isa on Jan 21, 2024 0:45:04 GMT
Well, if some of today's contributions haven't prompted any wavering, budding contributors to join in, I don't know what will.
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Post by mercian on Jan 21, 2024 1:07:15 GMT
Here's the stable genius confusing his political rival Nikki Hayley six times with the former speaker of the house Nancy Pelosi and lying about both of them. Easy mistake to make one's a 53 year old person of Indian ethnicity and the others an 83 year old woman of Italian decent But they are of course both powerful women so for the traitor an easy mistake to make. youtu.be/TkjH8uFtdO4?si=28PRNmj20WBGlkBBTrump and Biden are both senile IMO. Frightening.
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Post by mercian on Jan 21, 2024 1:08:51 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you want more people to die of Covid? Youre wrong, have you not read my posts properly? Sorry, there's so many (and usually so lengthy) that I don't. Life's too short.
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Post by mercian on Jan 21, 2024 1:11:07 GMT
Well, if some of today's contributions haven't prompted any wavering, budding contributors to join in, I don't know what will. Nice one.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 21, 2024 6:15:03 GMT
mercian There is no evidence that President Biden is senile he occasionally stumbles over words, so do I and I'm nearly twenty years younger. The traitor on the other hand apart from his continuous catalogue of lies and fascist / racist intent shows massive indicators of cognitive decline. Not only has he just yesterday repeatedly confused former.U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations his main republican rival for nomination Nikki Haley with the former democratic speaker of the house Nancy Pelosi and lied about both of them but he has repeatedly said he thinks Barak Obama is still the president. The issue with cognitive decline is If you display it every day in public and repeat the same confusions it's obvious to all. The fact that his cult base disregard this and would elect a convicted incontinent fascist rapist to the office of president, give him unlimited immunity from any crime and control over the biggest nuclear weapons arsenal in the world is incredibly concerning. My personal opinion is that an election of this person, which I think unlikely but a distinct possibility ,would trigger huge international turmoil,quite possibly civil war and secession within the USA or his assassination, the last option being the least damaging. The man needs to be in a mental care facility not the white house. If you want to see cognitive decline in public display check out this link. youtu.be/bAlmRYlGh1Y?si=dtn3x3FIqXfyQQgFAttachments:
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 21, 2024 6:31:31 GMT
And you think it was deliberately getting more anti-EU that got them over the line and into a coalition with the most pro-EU major party? . do you not remember eg how attitudes changed to ukip? First off they tried to ridicule them, but as ukip vote share rose and it was stealing votes 2;1 more from con than lab, their policy changed and they started saying the same things? The lib coalition was genius by con. Not least because it was still the more pro eu of the two big parties, despite its official anti position. Again remember how they blamed everything they didnt do but had promised onto those libs? It was commonly said that cameron counted on his lib partners to prevent a referendum.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 21, 2024 6:40:21 GMT
Steve, conflating your chief rival to be candidate with a leader of the opponent party might not be Such a bad tactic...
Con gave us brexit despite never wanting to leave the eu. It worked to get them elected, however crazy it seems.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 21, 2024 7:51:16 GMT
"Rishi Sunak is facing a possible defeat in the House of Lords this week over his controversial Rwanda deportation plan as peers prepare multiple bids to thwart its progress through parliament.
The first test will come on Monday when peers debate a motion laid by former Labour attorney general Peter Goldsmith, which seeks to delay the ratification of the new Rwanda treaty until the government can show the country is safe.
The international agreements committee, which is chaired by Lord Goldsmith and has four Conservative members, says that measures including an improved complaints process, training for Rwandan officials and a new asylum law guaranteeing people will not be returned to countries where they could be in danger must be in place before the treaty can be endorsed."
Given that the regime can't show the country is safe, primarily because according to UK supreme court , non government bodies and the United Nations it isn't.
This seems to be a potential game over moment.
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Post by alec on Jan 21, 2024 8:30:49 GMT
Couple of thoughts for Sunday morning. Here's an interesting paper from 2017 discussing the kind of pathogens humanity needs to be most wary of, and the intro says - "Increasingly, the pathogens that pose the greatest threats to humans are those that evolve to escape prior immunity and pharmaceutical interventions. In response, we need to employ evolutionary thinking to manage infectious disease." This is precisely what the evolutionary biologists have been warning about since 2020 with covid. See www.nature.com/articles/s41559-017-0265-9Meanwhile, this is the kind of article that is routinely appearing in the US business press - fortune.com/2022/10/06/strokes-heart-attacks-sudden-death-america-long-term-risks-catching-covid-carolyn-barber/With 20 -44 year olds showing the highest level of excess deaths in the UK last year, at 10%, it's a timely reminder that our obsession with the short term acute affects of covid means we're looking in completely the wrong direction here. There was a major US Senate hearing on Thursday, led by Sen Bernie Saunders, which addressed directly the issue of long covid, hearing evidence from sufferers, researchers, patient advocates, and a number of senators who admitted that close friends and relatives were struck down by this dreadful condition. The hearing concluded that this is a serious threat to America's health & economy, called for measures to restrict transmission, and a focus on research into treatments. Meanwhile, in the UK, GPs who openly work with Long Covid patients are being hounded by their peers and some are facing disciplinary action for trying to highlight the problems. Our neoliberal, right wing abandonment of basic public health is placing the UK in a very dangerous position.
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 21, 2024 8:40:11 GMT
Well, what a day in East London yesterday. Like Il Duce all those years ago, I even got the trains to run on time. All apart from the very last one from Worcester Foregate Street to Evesham. Cancelled due to a probable suicide on the main Great Malvern to London line. A tragedy, and even though it caused me to have to get a £40 taxi home, I can't really complain. The driver got a bit lost though. He ignored my advice on the route and we went the scenic one rather than the direct one. The Blossom Trail through the Lenches is a picturesque one on a midsummer afternoon: less so at 10.30pm at night in January. My driver didn't appear to anticipate, in the moonlight anyway, sudden bends in country lanes too well. An eventful but ultimately successful journey.
The game wasn't up to much. High flying Bolton Wanderers were disappointing and a slowly improving Orient ran out deserved winners in the end, but I had a very enjoyable day meeting a variety of characters along the way. I bumped into, quite literally, Darren Pratley, the veteran Orient skipper, on the tube train from Oxford Circus to Leyton. Dressed in his Orient tracksuit too. Didn't see Gabriel Jesus on his way to the Emirates, but there were a few Gooners on board! I wished Darren well for the game and I did see him come on as a sub late in the second half. Aged 38, it's only cameos now.
The Orient fans have a good chant for him though, celebrating both his longevity and club loyalty. "One more year Darren Pratley, one more year he will play, one more year Darren Pratley, playing football the Orient way". The chant then goes on, increasing in multiples of one year, until it finishes at 10 more years, by which time the whole ground is singing it. A nice touch, I thought. For my new mate Darren.
In the Leyton Orient Supporters club, a shrine to real ale, friendly company and old Orient football memorabilia, I bumped into a former Orient player who was a member of the legendary team who played in the club's only ever season in the top tier of English football. The 1962/63 season when they were relegated with only 21 points. It was the first football season I ever really remembered as a kid. I was six when it started and seven when it finished, but I do remember being beguiled by the name of Leyton Orient. It's sort of stayed with me ever since.
The player I met was Terry McDonald, ex Hammers apprentice and flying winger in that Orient First Division side. They'd had a purple patch in September 1962, beating Cup Winners Man Utd, league champions Everton, Fulham and neighbours West Ham. Terry got the late winner in the 1-0 win against United. He was a lovely bloke who told me that he made his living as a bookmaker after finishing playing. He's now 85 but looking very good on it. I asked him if he'd played at Villa Park. He had and said it was his favourite playing area and stadium. Great club the Villa, he said. Good old Terry.
Great day made by the company of strangers and football kinship. A combination that rarely, if ever, lets me down. Heartwarming and life affirming in so many ways.
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Post by leftieliberal on Jan 21, 2024 9:32:38 GMT
MOTD cameras caught Graham Potter making notes at the Emirates on Saturday. I expect Roy Hodgson to announce his retirement (again) in the next day or two, although the way Palace played I think it is Harry Potter they need. If one of the promoted teams stays up I think it will be at Palace's expense. Bad luck for Forest in losing narrowly to Brentford; a nice bit of gamesmanship from Toney but Forest should really have pulled Hudson-Odoi into the wall instead of him standing off and leaving a slot for Toney to shoot through.
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