neilj
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Post by neilj on Dec 18, 2023 18:39:41 GMT
Political messaging should be simple, effective and to the point
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Post by bardin1 on Dec 18, 2023 18:52:01 GMT
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Post by hireton on Dec 18, 2023 19:04:42 GMT
Latest R&W poll:
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Dave
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... I'm dreaming dreams, I'm scheming schemes, I'm building castles high ..
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Post by Dave on Dec 18, 2023 19:09:41 GMT
Political messaging should be simple, effective and to the point It’s not only pictures that can paint a 1,000 words. Big posters* of that all over our countries please. * I’m an old fashioned boy 🙂👍
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Post by crossbat11 on Dec 18, 2023 19:21:55 GMT
Political messaging should be simple, effective and to the point Looks like Arbeit Macht Frei, 1997-2010, had it's upsides then.
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Post by graham on Dec 18, 2023 19:55:11 GMT
Kruger (Devizes), is a bit more of a stretch - majority almost 24,000 Just a 24% swing needed for the home team, no problem☺ I remember the Devizes by election held in late Spring 1964.In those days it was seen as a fairly marginal Tory seat with Labour the main challenger. Labour's failure to pick it up boosted Tory morale in the run-up to the October 1964 election.
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Dec 18, 2023 20:03:32 GMT
Kruger (Devizes), is a bit more of a stretch - majority almost 24,000 Just a 24% swing needed for the home team, no problem☺ I remember the Devizes by election held in late Spring 1964.In those days it was seen as a fairly marginal Tory seat with Labour the main challenger. Labour's failure to pick it up boosted Tory morale in the run-up to the October 1964 election. It should be noted that Devizes on its 2019 boundaries is disappearing in the boundary changes. There is still a seat with Devizes in the name but the real successor is Wiltshire East. So the swing needed by either Lib Dems or Labour will not be that of 2019.
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 18, 2023 20:07:14 GMT
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Post by jib on Dec 18, 2023 20:48:33 GMT
Political messaging should be simple, effective and to the point It’s not only pictures that can paint a 1,000 words. Big posters* of that all over our countries please. * I’m an old fashioned boy 🙂👍 That graph has missed something. Ever helpful, I've corrected it free of charge. Attachment Deleted
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Post by charles on Dec 18, 2023 21:30:13 GMT
I know next to nothing about the relationship between attitudes towards immigrants and proportion of immigrants in the population. So I asked Chat GPT. This knows a lot, but is also inclined to make things up. For what it is worth, It said:
"Some research suggests that areas with higher proportions of immigrants might actually display more positive attitudes towards immigrants due to increased familiarity and exposure to different cultures. However, this isn't a universal rule, and attitudes can vary widely even within regions with similar immigrant populations."
its answer was in fact longer but mainly devoted to unsubstantiated sitting on the fence. One possibility it did not mention was that hostility towards immigrants often reflects their role as a popular explanation for some social pain (poor housing, services, and employment prospects). As immigrants are naturally attracted to places with jobs, they are less likely to be blameed for taking away jobs in these places. But obviously there are a load of other factors and these may include familiarity, etc Difficulty with the debate is that almost any explanation is likely to be true in some locality.
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Post by isa on Dec 18, 2023 21:48:23 GMT
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Post by isa on Dec 18, 2023 21:51:46 GMT
Nice to see you posting again, charles.
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Post by alec on Dec 18, 2023 22:35:02 GMT
That Labour poster: You don't have to be too observant to notice the near vertical trajectory of that line post 2020, albeit with a small bump towards the third quarter of that year.
It's a little known fact, but by the end of summer 2020, the NHS had pretty much caught up with the additional backlog caused by the initial wave of covid. It's been the relentless level of infection and post covid ill health that has greatly accelerated an already bad trend after 'Freedom Day'.
Labour won't be capable of sorting this out unless they get a grip on the issue of transmission. I know that's an uncomfortable message for the Labourites on here, but it's the reality. Pretty soon it's Labour that's going to be held to account for these failures, and the quickest and cheapest solution to reducing wait times is a proper policy on disease prevention.
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Post by crossbat11 on Dec 18, 2023 22:46:30 GMT
I was interested in the brief interchange between jimjam and Colin on the vocational backgrounds of many prospective parliamentary candidates. Colin introduced us to the thoughts of a captain of industry who seemed to be worried about the lack of business expertise and experience of many of Labour's candidates whereas Jimjam bemoaned the paucity of vocational diversity amongst candidates of all political parties, not just Labour's. His was a more general observation and concern.
This got me thinking about what are the most important attributes and qualities we should be seeking in our elected representatives and whether vocational and/or academic backgrounds rank amongst the most important.
I'm not sure that they do. Honesty, decency, intelligence, a commitment to democratic values, compassion, a dedication to public service, an intellectual curiosity, a determination to effect change not serve time, prioritising service over personal enrichment. There are many others too that really have nothing to do with educational attainment or vocational background. There are plenty of politicians who have those things on their CVs but prove to be either incompetent or venal, or both. We're often fooled and blindsided by public poise, self-confidence and social refinement. Credentialism too. Letters after names, time served acquiring worthless business experience and qualifications in enterprises of little social value. Some esteemed professions fall into this category too. Class stalks this world as well. As it often still does in this country.
So rather than stuffing the Commons with loads of people who've "run businesses" in previous lives, we should maybe look more towards less easily identifiable qualities. Diversity of social background would be good for a start, but people with emotional intelligence and integrity are sadly lacking in public life. These are the attributes we should be seeking when we identify candidates and our would be elected representatives, not obsess about their vocational past or education.
I'm not saying, by the way, that the Commons shouldn't contain people from business backgrounds, or that there shouldn't be former lawyers or trade union officials, but they are job titles that say little about the quality of the individual who bears the title.
Civil servants, special advisers and Ministry officials should be the wonks, geeks and boffins that advise politicians. I'm much more interested in politicians being visionaries and shakers and stirrers than I am them being knowledgeable about balance sheets and City trading strategies.
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Dec 18, 2023 23:18:42 GMT
I was interested in the brief interchange between jimjam and Colin on the vocational backgrounds of many prospective parliamentary candidates. Colin introduced us to the thoughts of a captain of industry who seemed to be worried about the lack of business expertise and experience of many of Labour's candidates whereas Jimjam bemoaned the paucity of vocational diversity amongst candidates of all political parties, not just Labour's. His was a more general observation and concern. This got me thinking about what are the most important attributes and qualities we should be seeking in our elected representatives and whether vocational and/or academic backgrounds rank amongst the most important. I'm not sure that they do. Honesty, decency, intelligence, a commitment to democratic values, compassion, a dedication to public service, an intellectual curiosity, a determination to effect change not serve time, prioritising service over personal enrichment. There are many others too that really have nothing to do with educational attainment or vocational background. There are plenty of politicians who have those things on their CVs but prove to be either incompetent or venal, or both. We're often fooled and blindsided by public poise, self-confidence and social refinement. Credentialism too. Letters after names, time served acquiring worthless business experience and qualifications in enterprises of little social value. Some esteemed professions fall into this category too. Class stalks this world as well. As it often still does in this country. So rather than stuffing the Commons with loads of people who've "run businesses" in previous lives, we should maybe look more towards less easily identifiable qualities. Diversity of social background would be good for a start, but people with emotional intelligence and integrity are sadly lacking in public life. These are the attributes we should be seeking when we identify candidates and our would be elected representatives, not obsess about their vocational past or education. I'm not saying, by the way, that the Commons shouldn't contain people from business backgrounds, or that there shouldn't be former lawyers or trade union officials, but they are job titles that say little about the quality of the individual who bears the title. Civil servants, special advisers and Ministry officials should be the wonks, geeks and boffins that advise politicians. I'm much more interested in politicians being visionaries and shakers and stirrers than I am them being knowledgeable about balance sheets and City trading strategies. Ernest Bevin was one of the great statesmen of the 20th century, admired even by political opponents like Churchill. Per Wikipedia his education comprised the following: "He had little formal education; he had briefly attended two village schools and then Hayward's School, Crediton, starting in 1890 and leaving in 1892. He later recalled being asked as a child to read the newspaper aloud for the benefit of adults in his family who were illiterate. At the age of eleven, he went to work as a labourer". Hard to believe he would have any chance of becoming an MP these days. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Bevin
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Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2023 0:15:43 GMT
As for the two losing FA Cup Finals you mention, in 2000 and 2015, I'm afraid few recall losing finalists and we were abject in both games. We never laid a glove on Chelsea in the last ever Final at the old Wembley Stadium and the Final against Arsenal in 2015 was one of the most one sided in FA Cup history. We did well to get out with a 4-0 defeat. It could and should have been more. I've even admitted as much to Crofty of this parish I loved the two days out in the capital, but we were an embarrassment on the pitch in a typical anti-climactic Villa sort of way. It's still more than most clubs achieve, but as we both know the Villa are entitled to win the Double every year, so disappointing. The last time I went to Wembley was the two League Cup Finals in the 1970s. I have a vague memory of Chico Hamilton scoring against Spurs.
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Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2023 0:23:49 GMT
My wife had several relatives working at "The Austin" as it was still called locally at that time. I was told that at one time they came out on strike because the design of the paper cups in the coffee machines changed!
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Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2023 0:42:11 GMT
The result is that people like Mercian can get away with the "I haven't noticed any problems" line. Well that is true. Having said that, a good proportion of my investments are in overseas assets as they always have been.
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Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2023 0:53:03 GMT
If we assume, which I think we're perfectly entitled to, that mutual loathing masked by utterly fake bonhomie is the currency of Tory politics, then I suppose we shouldn't be at all surprised that Baroness Mone and her husband have gone full Tonto Cummings and are now trying to drag a variety of Tory politicians down with them. Sunak included now by the sound of it:- www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/18/michelle-mone-hits-out-rishi-sunak-ppe-dealsIn some respects this is a hilarious spectacle and should speed the current Government's descent down the political plughole, but it reminds me again of the point I raised the other day. This isn't some political satire or soap opera, this is a glimpse into the soul of our governing party. The party that has almost unbridled control of the affairs of state and our national prospects. As John Harris observed on his recent doleful rail journey, this squalid claque of bickering ne'r be goods and chancers are indulging in ever more eccentric absurdities as a broken country looks on, despairingly concluding that there may well be another 12 months of this to come. "The Revenge of Baroness Mone" may well be the title of a future and yet unwritten David Hare play that documents and dramatises these last 14 years of disastrous misgovernance. Actually, thinking about it, maybe "Carry on Westminster" might be a better idea. I agree that she seems to be thoroughly unpleasant and quite possibly corrupt but do question how aware most voters are and how much they care even if they are. It does remind me though of the constant drip-drip-drip of scandals in the latter days of the Major government.
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Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2023 1:01:14 GMT
Political messaging should be simple, effective and to the point It’s not only pictures that can paint a 1,000 words. Big posters* of that all over our countries please. * I’m an old fashioned boy 🙂👍 That graph shows that waiting lists started to go down as soon as Labour took power. Knowing how slowly bureaucratic organisations respond, that suggests that measures to bring the waiting lists down must have started under Major. Similarly, the instant rise in waiting lists post 2010 could only have been in response to Labour policies.
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Post by robbiealive on Dec 19, 2023 1:10:32 GMT
I was interested in the brief interchange between jimjam and Colin on the vocational backgrounds of many prospective parliamentary candidates. Colin introduced us to the thoughts of a captain of industry who seemed to be worried about the lack of business expertise and experience of many of Labour's candidates whereas Jimjam bemoaned the paucity of vocational diversity amongst candidates of all political parties, not just Labour's. His was a more general observation and concern. This got me thinking about what are the most important attributes and qualities we should be seeking in our elected representatives and whether vocational and/or academic backgrounds rank amongst the most important. I'm not sure that they do. Honesty, decency, intelligence, a commitment to democratic values, compassion, a dedication to public service, an intellectual curiosity, a determination to effect change not serve time, prioritising service over personal enrichment. There are many others too that really have nothing to do with educational attainment or vocational background. There are plenty of politicians who have those things on their CVs but prove to be either incompetent or venal, or both. We're often fooled and blindsided by public poise, self-confidence and social refinement. Credentialism too. Letters after names, time served acquiring worthless business experience and qualifications in enterprises of little social value. Some esteemed professions fall into this category too. Class stalks this world as well. As it often still does in this country. So rather than stuffing the Commons with loads of people who've "run businesses" in previous lives, we should maybe look more towards less easily identifiable qualities. Diversity of social background would be good for a start, but people with emotional intelligence and integrity are sadly lacking in public life. These are the attributes we should be seeking when we identify candidates and our would be elected representatives, not obsess about their vocational past or education. I'm not saying, by the way, that the Commons shouldn't contain people from business backgrounds, or that there shouldn't be former lawyers or trade union officials, but they are job titles that say little about the quality of the individual who bears the title. Civil servants, special advisers and Ministry officials should be the wonks, geeks and boffins that advise politicians. I'm much more interested in politicians being visionaries and shakers and stirrers than I am them being knowledgeable about balance sheets and City trading strategies. I rhink this debate is too abstract like many debates on here. Values are important but the question is what do our rulers do, as much as where they come from. 1. Tory MPs with a business background come from what for the most part: Finance, Speculation, PR, Consultancy, Lobbying, etc. Half of these are jobs which if no one did them no one would notrice. How many have run large businesses & thus grappled with our economy's greatest problem: static labour productivity. How many have wrestled with problems of long-term investment. 2. Values. When the members of the constituency Tory associations occasionally rise from their lead-lined coffins to choose candidates they have, for years, chosen right-wing, socially reactionary Europhobes & xenophobes. 3. The result was Brexit & a decade of ideological politics: a self-inflicted disaster, econocide. Did the business interests support Brexit? A decision which has danaged our export industries, & produced nothing in the way of important trade treaties: they are now pinning their hopes on Trump for a deal with the USA! & is generating daily evidence that Brexit is undermining the City. They cannot even nourish the sector from which so many emerged. 4. Their ideological obsessions have led to a degree of opportunism in environmental policies which has appalled the business interests; & with a migration policy that will starve the NHS & the Care Sector of labour, with no idea of how to fill the gaps, & moreover to wreck the successful Higher Education Sector, whose foreign recruitment pays for itself 10x over. 5. Not to mention Truss! I'll take my chances with Labour. Hard to see they can do much worse.
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Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2023 1:16:17 GMT
I'm not sure that they do. Honesty, decency, intelligence, a commitment to democratic values, compassion, a dedication to public service, an intellectual curiosity, a determination to effect change not serve time, prioritising service over personal enrichment. There are many others too that really have nothing to do with educational attainment or vocational background. I agree with a lot of that post, but would just remark about this section that IMO of course there are some MPs who embody those qualities, but would suggest that the sort of people who want to be an MP are often pretty much the opposite (from all parties). It's part of my theory that anyone who rises to the top of any significant organisation has psychopathic or at least sociopathic tendencies. Backbench MPs are possibly less likely to be like that because they have little real power usually. Obviously a topic that could be debated at length and I'm sure many examples of both 'goodies' and 'baddies' could be found om all sides.
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Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2023 1:19:01 GMT
Ernest Bevin was one of the great statesmen of the 20th century, admired even by political opponents like Churchill. Per Wikipedia his education comprised the following: "He had little formal education; he had briefly attended two village schools and then Hayward's School, Crediton, starting in 1890 and leaving in 1892. He later recalled being asked as a child to read the newspaper aloud for the benefit of adults in his family who were illiterate. At the age of eleven, he went to work as a labourer". Hard to believe he would have any chance of becoming an MP these days. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_BevinAgreed. I always had a lot of time for Dennis Skinner too, although he could be boorish and of course was nowhere near as significant as Bevin. EDIT: Apologies, as so often, for the multiple posts, but I have been out doing more interesting things and have been catching up.
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Post by robbiealive on Dec 19, 2023 1:28:04 GMT
LA GRANDE MONE Mone is greedy even by Tory standards & deserves what she gets & plenty of it. But it's useful for Gove etc, if they can get away with it, to focus all the blame for the fraud & corruption embedded in lockdown on one individual: albeit if, for now, La Grande Mone contributes to the sense that tbe Tories are in perpetual crisis.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Dec 19, 2023 6:35:58 GMT
Agree with this OFCOM have found GB News to be in breach 5 times, each time the punishment has been a warning not to do it again...which they subsequently break There are a number of investigations going on by OFCOM, for which I expect they'll be told not to do it again...that'll show them
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 19, 2023 6:52:47 GMT
"I'm not saying, by the way, that the Commons shouldn't contain people from business backgrounds,"
I think less sacked lying journalists in parliament might make for an improvement.
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 19, 2023 7:02:09 GMT
It's useful that our regular obsessive has provided a graph showing the impact of the Tory lib dem coalition since 2015 in NHS waiting lists.
The fact that this coalition only exists rent free in his head is an irrelevancy.
During the actual coalition while unnecessary austerity did impact the nhs significantly it hadn't had much impact on service until around 2013 in 2015 NHS waiting lists were about the same as they were the year before the banker greed financial crisis in 2007.
The exponential rise in waiting lists has been since the brexitanian Tories took charge in 2019.
Bloody Danny Alexander!
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 19, 2023 7:21:52 GMT
The reason why the racist traitor has gone full fascist dictator is two fold. He wants to be one. His base wants him to be one as well. Back in 1930's Germany and Italy there were no doubt millions of apparently normal people who looked at the rhetoric of fascism, the demonizing of the other , the shifting of blame from where it belongs to dark forces of internationalism and liked it. It's a sad reflection on the human psyche but we would be naive to think we've changed. While this is almost certainly a minority view the majority of people don't think this way the minority is often substantial and vociferous and with suitable leadership and media bias it can take control, those who oppose basing their opinions primarily on rationality are at a disadvantage, the temptation is to ignore the views as extremist poorly educated fringe bollocks, it stays that way even after the numbers indicate stupidity has gone main stream. The result is inevitably chaos and violence but it's not stopped the manipulation of the hard of thinking yet and likely it never will. youtu.be/FszsAnPOixA?si=_OdLKaS-NYTfJWds
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 19, 2023 7:37:47 GMT
The reason why the racist traitor has gone full fascist dictator is two fold. He wants to be one. His base wants him to be one as well. Plus the fact the system of allocating power delivers that power to the largest cohesive minority. Very seldom does it deliver to the majority. Its argued even in countries with proportional representation of some sort that parties below a certain quota in size do not get represented. Well obviously, you cannot have a fraction of a representative, but its often a rather bigger quota than that. However had we used pr in this country, UKIP would have been a parliamentary party, but it would have been more than counterbalanced by other factions such as very probably something like 20% libs, balancing the 30% con, 30% lab, 20% other miscellaneous. Its doubtful brexit would ever have passed parliament, because it never had enough support. But if it had, by now we would be well into rejoin parliamentary territory. And whatever faction had supported it, would now be out of power. The obvious reform of parliament since it clings to the idea of using a chamber with FPP voting, has always been to counter balance that by a chamber wholly proportionally elected. Thereby generating the tension that to gain power a party must accomplish both the victory as the largest group in every constituency, plus an overall national coalition of 50%. Plus of course a figure with stronger powers as ringmaster and willing to use those powers. The monarch either needs to rule, or be replaced. Maybe one thing which went wrong in the US constitution is the power of the president is too close to that of an absolute ruler. Which problem has worsened as the federal government has taken to itself powers which the founders did not envisage. And the supreme court with powers in effect to change the constitution has become a political tool. Perhaps increase in longevity since it was written has played a part in this, the justices simply stay in office too long before they die whereas the founders might have expected them to have faster turnover.
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Post by crossbat11 on Dec 19, 2023 7:46:36 GMT
As for the two losing FA Cup Finals you mention, in 2000 and 2015, I'm afraid few recall losing finalists and we were abject in both games. We never laid a glove on Chelsea in the last ever Final at the old Wembley Stadium and the Final against Arsenal in 2015 was one of the most one sided in FA Cup history. We did well to get out with a 4-0 defeat. It could and should have been more. I've even admitted as much to Crofty of this parish I loved the two days out in the capital, but we were an embarrassment on the pitch in a typical anti-climactic Villa sort of way. It's still more than most clubs achieve, but as we both know the Villa are entitled to win the Double every year, so disappointing. The last time I went to Wembley was the two League Cup Finals in the 1970s. I have a vague memory of Chico Hamilton scoring against Spurs. It was a vague memory because, sadly, Chico Hamilton didn't score in the 1971 League Cup Final against Spurs. He played, and played very well hitting the bar with a long range effort, but Villa lost 2-0 to a good Spurs side. We did very well to reach the Final at all because we were a Third Division side back then, two levels below Spurs. We appeared again in 1975, then a Second Division side, winning 1-0 against a fellow Second Division side, Norwich City. Ray Graydon scored the winner, netting a lucky rebound from his initially missed penalty. Norwich, like Villa, were promoted that season. Our other League Cup Final Wembley appearance that decade was in a 0-0 draw with Everton. Dreadful game with a record number of back passes to the goalkeeper, apparently. No penalty shoot outs in those days; just unlimited replays. Accordingly, there followed a 1-1 draw at Hillsbsborough, another dour and attritional encounter but then, to decide it, a dramatic second replay denouement at Old Trafford. In a see-sawing game, Villa won 3-2 after extra time. I often look back wistfully on that great night at Old Trafford, and one of the best games of football I think I've ever seen, and think that under current Cup competition rules it would never have taken place. A ghost game now, but what a night it was. Two dreadful games to endure before getting to an absolute cracker. P S. Don't worry about occasionally misremembering the detail and minutiae of old football games. I do it all the time too. And not just when it comes to old football games. Cricket, politics etc
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