18-OCT 2023 : LAB 44% / CON 28% / LDM 9% / REF 7%

[richardstamper]

Dec 7, 2023 13:40:07 GMT Danny said:

Dec 7, 2023 9:16:00 GMT richardstamper said:

You just haven't included where I did state what the problem is; I'll repeat it.

The private school system spews out socially ignorant, opinionated, arrogant, self-important sociopaths like the crew that have been running the country the last 13 years.

I dont see evidence they contain more sociopaths than any other school. Isnt this somewhat intrinsic to brain structure? In general though these seem to be exactly the sort of people who become politicians and national leaders, and still would absent any private schools. A sense of entitlement and generally being well off are usually characteristics of those who make up rulers of nations in every society. Even amongst state schools they divide between the sink schools, and the posh ones which all the posh people send their kids to in expectation they will become rulers too. If you did abolish every private school, you would not have solved your problem. (unless perhaps you were willing to spend the money you argue is unaffordable and raise every school to this same excellent level?)

I think that's because you've not gone looking for evidence. How about Cannon et al? The paper reports on a study of the "Dark Triad" of personality traits - narcissism, psychopathy and Machiavellianism. Quoting from the abstract:

Privately educated students had higher Dark Triad trait scores than state-schooled students. Also, privately educated students had less intellectual humility and poorer academic performance than state-schooled students. There was a negative relationship between the Dark Triad traits and intellectual humility, and this relationship was stronger for privately schooled students.

An education system that is set up to ensure that children of the wealthy are especially narcissistic, psychopathic and Machiavellian sounds like bad news to me, and something worth changing. 

[neilj]

Stries me this is likely to backfire for the tories

[alec]

domjg - "I'm not going to get into the obvious points about human beings being built as social and collaborative..."

Actually we are evolved to live in very small social groups. We're absolutely not evolved to experience large crowds, big classrooms etc. Schools represent a situation that is completely alien to us in evolutionary terms.

In terms of where we are with schooling now, to be honest, there's a huge pile of bullshit being applied by heads and teachers on the effects of a few weeks of lockdowns. Partly I think this is just running with the crowd, following 'conventional wisdom' rather than seriously questioning how a few short weeks away from school could have such a big impact, but I also think there is an element of covering up school failings here and looking for a convenient scapegoat. As someone who follows the educational press, there is also a sense of desperation here, as educationists cling to the idea that all the problems are from lockdowns, rather than run with the evidence that strongly suggests covid infections are having an ongoing impact on children's wellbeing. The former is someone else's fault, but if it's the latter, then it means schools need to act to do something, as they are one of the key reasons why we have such high levels of illness. Lots and lots of arse covering and politics in this.

But most of all, I laugh out loud when I hear teachers say that lockdowns caused arrested development in children. I'm old enough to remember things like this - metro.co.uk/2018/06/01/alarming-number-children-starting-school-unable-speak-properly-7596355/

[crossbat11]

Dec 7, 2023 15:52:21 GMT mandolinist said:

Dec 7, 2023 15:30:22 GMT crossbat11 said:

Benjamin Zephaniah's finest hour. Born in Handsworth, equidistant between Villa Park and the Hawthorns, he chose the claret and blue path to righteousness.


youtu.be/9YVOHu8qYSo?si=ixm3_v0bf1adh0dt

Fine poet and human being. Loved his cameo appearances in Peaky Blinders too.

Very sad that he has passed away so suddenly in his mid 60s.

Ah, thanks for that Batty, I really hope he saw the match the other day.

Yes, it's a nice little snippet, isn't it? Of course there was much more to him than just being a Villa supporter, but he was my sort of celebrity football fan. Him and Geezer Butler of the Sabs who, like Benjamin was born down the road from Villa Park. Geezer, like Ozzy, was an Aston lad. Two real brummies. Nigel Kennedy, Prince William, Tom Hanks, David Cameron, Mervyn King etc? Less so, I think.

It would be nice to think Benjamin might have been watching the Villa v City game last night, but I don't know how ill he was towards the end. He'd only been diagnosed with a brain tumour eight weeks ago. It may have been very sudden. Desperately sad.

[oldnat]

[mercian]

Dec 7, 2023 6:56:36 GMT steve said:

"He was my Prime Minister for three and a half years. Humiliation is probably what we should all feel, on reflection."

What's with the " we" I didn't vote for Spaffer or his destructive xenophobic stupidity .

Those who did should of course feel humiliated and if not shamed just embarrassed by their own gullibility.

I didn't vote for him either, but as I am a UK subject and he was the UK's PM then he was my Prime Minister. It's as ludicrous as those people holding up placards at the coronation saying 'Not my King'. Well I'm sorry luvvies, but he is whether you like it or not. In due course Starmer will probably be my PM even though I'm unlikely to vote for him. 

[ptarmigan]

Dec 7, 2023 14:16:26 GMT neilj said:

Is anyone else not just a tad worried that a UK Government is writing legislation that specifically prevents UK Courts holding them to account?

Yes, it's rather chilling - it's effectively an attempt to completely undermine the rule of law, yet even the better parts of the media seem more fixated on internal Tory party dramas that this, which is rather concerning. I mean, the absolute state of the below tweets. Dangerous lunatics. 

[Mark]

Dec 7, 2023 14:16:26 GMT neilj said:

Is anyone else not just a tad worried that a UK Government is writing legislation that specifically prevents UK Courts holding them to account?

Yes.

[steve]

"I didn't vote for him either, but as I am a UK subject "

Actually you're a British citizen not a subject and Spaffer wasn't head of state.

You owe no allegiance to him or to a head of state selected by accident of birth.

You didn't vote for Charles Windsor either.

[Danny]

Dec 7, 2023 16:15:17 GMT alec said:

Actually we are evolved to live in very small social groups. We're absolutely not evolved to experience large crowds, big classrooms etc. Schools represent a situation that is completely alien to us in evolutionary terms.

How do you know? Were you there?

A state class is typically 30 kids. Private 10-20. Assuming no reliable birth control, wouldnt we expect large families, only take a few families and you have easily reached that many kids of mixed age to be looked after. As hunter gatherers then success would have depended on communal activities. All that stuff about humans hunting mammoths and similar large animals to extinction. A joint effort. Then as farmers, labour was very manual and human powered. No 1000 acre fields and a tractor. Lots of families living together. Shared animals for ploughing, transport. Or again the local lord model, with a centrally organised community.

[Danny]

Dec 7, 2023 16:43:56 GMT mercian said:

It's as ludicrous as those people holding up placards at the coronation saying 'Not my King'.

Surely the one who owns the king and so could call him 'mine', is the prime minister?

[shevii]

A quite damning judgement that should put Ofsted into special measures:

www.theguardian.com/education/2023/dec/07/ofsted-inspection-contributed-to-headteacher-suicide-ruth-perry-coroner-rules

This was an exceptional case but I've seen the stress teachers go through when they get an Ofsted and often they have very poor quality inspections so you get lucky or get unlucky simply due to the Inspector and their knowledge and flexibility. Many don't have previous experience of the type of school they are reporting on be it primary rather than secondary or deprived area rather than leafy. They are also working from a very rigid framework of one size fits all and very little room in the reports these days to provide much context to their judgments. Additionally Ofsted has become the be all and end all for a school which is why teachers get so stressed about it with jobs on the line and a "requires improvement" means constant visits whereas a "Good" means you get left alone for way too long.

You need some form of school monitoring and obviously many schools are failing and need action taking but it's one two day visit that defines success or failure which is completely wrong as well as an RI (which used to be "satisfactory") in any one area dragging the headline judgement down to that level.

Her school had one area to fix and a relatively simple one to get right given 6 months later it had been fixed (according to Ofsted). It was a potentially bad safeguarding weakness (assuming the report is accurate) but that's where the issues come in about how an Ofsted judgment is so inflexible and be all and end all rather than, in this case, helping to fix the problem without the repercussions of an "inadequate".

[mercian]

Dec 7, 2023 8:20:26 GMT pete said:

Dec 6, 2023 23:49:27 GMT mercian said:

Not only that but it wasn't even done for more than twenty years after the event. Duckworth must have had some powerful friends. Having said that, if the late-arriving Liverpool fans had entered the stadium in an orderly manner the disaster wouldn't have happened at all. 

A myth.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732

I read that, and though it does designate some things as myths, I was thinking of what happened after the gates were opened, when hundreds of fans charged in.  Your link doesn't address that. If they had walked in, the disaster wouldn't have happened.  This does not absolve the police and ground authorities of blame.  I'm sure I once saw some footage of the fans charging in after the gates were opened, but can't now find it.

I got the chief copper's name wrong. It was of course Duckenfield.
 

[mercian]

Dec 7, 2023 8:26:35 GMT pete said:

Dec 7, 2023 0:18:54 GMT mercian said:

How does anyone have time to watch films at Christmas time? I'm either with family (actually talking with them) or carousing or at a Christmas meal and so on.

I start watching films from around the 15th. Only do 4/5 anyway. Keeps the sanity going from what is a ridiculous over rated holiday time.

One of the attractions of this site is the sheer joie-de-vivre of many of the posters. 

[pjw1961]

Dec 7, 2023 13:32:19 GMT Mr Poppy said:

Dec 7, 2023 0:11:35 GMT mercian said:

Wasn't it Humpty Dumpty who said that he believed two impossible things before breakfast? Perhaps a great fall is coming.

The Queen in Alice in Wonderland: "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast" 

www.goodreads.com/quotes/9467-alice-laughed-there-s-no-use-trying-she-said-one-can-t

NB Other than a Covid essay from someone 'new' being dragged into that and predictable comments from someone whose posts I can't hide then the only posts on the last few pages are from you! I get the message but I hope you appreciate the pedantry.. for old times sake 

Pleased to see Trevor has finally reached peak blocking. Now he need not be exposed to any contrary view to his own. Bless. 

[domjg]

Dec 7, 2023 16:50:34 GMT ptarmigan said:

Dec 7, 2023 14:16:26 GMT neilj said:

Is anyone else not just a tad worried that a UK Government is writing legislation that specifically prevents UK Courts holding them to account?

Yes, it's rather chilling - it's effectively an attempt to completely undermine the rule of law, yet even the better parts of the media seem more fixated on internal Tory party dramas that this, which is rather concerning. I mean, the absolute state of the below tweets. Dangerous lunatics. 

You don't speak for the 'country' Sunak. What a little c*. 

[domjg]

Dec 7, 2023 16:15:17 GMT alec said:

domjg - "I'm not going to get into the obvious points about human beings being built as social and collaborative..."

Actually we are evolved to live in very small social groups. We're absolutely not evolved to experience large crowds, big classrooms etc. Schools represent a situation that is completely alien to us in evolutionary terms.

In terms of where we are with schooling now, to be honest, there's a huge pile of bullshit being applied by heads and teachers on the effects of a few weeks of lockdowns. Partly I think this is just running with the crowd, following 'conventional wisdom' rather than seriously questioning how a few short weeks away from school could have such a big impact, but I also think there is an element of covering up school failings here and looking for a convenient scapegoat. As someone who follows the educational press, there is also a sense of desperation here, as educationists cling to the idea that all the problems are from lockdowns, rather than run with the evidence that strongly suggests covid infections are having an ongoing impact on children's wellbeing. The former is someone else's fault, but if it's the latter, then it means schools need to act to do something, as they are one of the key reasons why we have such high levels of illness. Lots and lots of arse covering and politics in this.

But most of all, I laugh out loud when I hear teachers say that lockdowns caused arrested development in children. I'm old enough to remember things like this - metro.co.uk/2018/06/01/alarming-number-children-starting-school-unable-speak-properly-7596355/

Sorry Alec, I've spoken to people I trust on the teaching frontline who know what they're talking about as well as many parents. Lockdowns were inevitable, I don't query that but the biggest collateral damage was due to schools closing. 

[steve]

I have no wish to big up Lord Snooty.
But here's Cameron on CNN showing a decent knowledge of his brief and displaying the gravitas which is sadly lacking in the rest of the clown show.

youtu.be/lcpRXYOEQJU?si=bLGo-_fkvyThXbIa

[alec]

domjg - I don't disagree, but no lockdowns would have been much worse all round. And the way that school closures were (badly) handled adds culpability. It could have been done with so much less damage.

[Danny]

Dec 7, 2023 17:02:41 GMT shevii said:

Additionally Ofsted has become the be all and end all for a school which is why teachers get so stressed about it with jobs on the line

In my experience, admittedly limited to just two schools, the stress is all about rushing round to hide what you do not want the inspectors to see, and try to get them to go where you do want them to see something. Which of course the inspectors are expecting, so it all becomes a game of cat and mouse. Obviously, the less you are trying to hide and the more you are happy for them to see, then the less stressful it gets. I dont know if heads get lessons in pulling the wool over ofsteds eyes, but it is part of the job.

I would imagine if it was simply about them coming and giving an impartial and honest assessment it wouldnt be stressful at all. Just a friendly cup of tea and away they go.

In the one case I knew most about, the school had failed its ofsted and was being re-tested. It had to pass or the management would be for the chop. Luckily it did pass, so then they turned to their next problem, which was their massive budget deficit, which they had to fix because if they didnt, management would once again all get the chop. So their next task was to slash their wage bill and fire the staff who had just enabled them to pass ofsted.

fancy being a teacher?

[mandolinist]

Dec 7, 2023 18:33:10 GMT steve said:

I have no wish to big up Lord Snooty.
But here's Cameron on CNN showing a decent knowledge of his brief and displaying the gravitas which is sadly lacking in the rest of the clown show.

youtu.be/lcpRXYOEQJU?si=bLGo-_fkvyThXbIa

Interestingly, I was speaking with a reasonably senior civil servant in the Foreign Office recently who told me that Cameron is the first of the Foreign Secretaries in the last few years to actually call a departmental meeting and meet with them all on taking office. Mind you, they were really surprised at his appointment.

[domjg]

Dec 7, 2023 16:15:06 GMT neilj said:

Stries me this is likely to backfire for the tories

They seem to think they're appealing to MAGA hillbillies but none of those actually live in this country thank God.
The tories have always been obsessed with making the UK more like America but seem to have forgotten that it's really very different which is great as it will help them on their route to oblivion.

[Danny]

Dec 7, 2023 17:14:06 GMT domjg said:

Sorry Alec, I've spoken to people I trust on the teaching frontline who know what they're talking about as well as many parents. Lockdowns were inevitable, I don't query that but the biggest collateral damage was due to schools closing. 

Its pretty clear, if you look at how rates of covid rose after schools reopened, that in some places there was a surge of cases, and in others there was not. The obvious conclusion from this is that in some areas the kids were already significantly immune to covid, and in others not. (Johnson remarked on this disparity of response in his evidence and stated it was why he refused to order a new lockdown)

If they were already immune, it means they probably had covid before schools were dissolved (the alternative would be, while schools were shut and during lockdown). It was pointless to close them because they had already had it. I mentioned a school in London I have information from, which at that time recorded its highest ever illness absences, and the lot of them not absent were coughing like mad. The whole place had already had covid before it was shut. too late, but also pointless because it had already come and gone so nothing was to be gained by closing it.

Presumably all their parents had had it too. The minus is closures were simply too late to prevent an explosion of covid, if they ever could have. The plus is that where it came and went before interventions the damage was nothing like the levels Sage were predicting, they were far too pessimistic. The silver lining is had they not been too late, we would likely have spent the entire year in total lockdown, with just as many deaths only more slowly.

[jib]

Dec 7, 2023 18:33:10 GMT steve said:

I have no wish to big up Lord Snooty.
But here's Cameron on CNN showing a decent knowledge of his brief and displaying the gravitas which is sadly lacking in the rest of the clown show.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

Happy memories of better days for Lib Dems there. Bless.

[steve]

jib

[pjw1961]

Dec 7, 2023 19:22:35 GMT domjg said:

Dec 7, 2023 16:15:06 GMT neilj said:

Stries me this is likely to backfire for the tories

They seem to think they're appealing to MAGA hillbillies but none of those actually live in this country thank God.
The tories have always been obsessed with making the UK more like America but seem to have forgotten that it's really very different which is great as it will help them on their route to oblivion.

Well ... apart from the fact that they don't really do the fundamentalist Christianity thing and Essex doesn't have much in the way of proper hills, I can think of some residents of these parts that would fit the bill. By the way they hate Sunak and are fed up with the Tories, but blame this on a woke conspiracy to deprive them of their hero 'Boris'.  

[joeboy]

Dec 7, 2023 17:06:39 GMT mercian said:

Dec 7, 2023 8:20:26 GMT pete said:

A myth.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732

I read that, and though it does designate some things as myths, I was thinking of what happened after the gates were opened, when hundreds of fans charged in.  Your link doesn't address that. If they had walked in, the disaster wouldn't have happened.  This does not absolve the police and ground authorities of blame.  I'm sure I once saw some footage of the fans charging in after the gates were opened, but can't now find it.

I got the chief copper's name wrong. It was of course Duckenfield.
 

I've seen some footage over the years that suggest it was a bit hairy outside until the gates were opened. That said, the CCTV shows that once the crowd are let in they proceeded quite calmly towards the Terraces. The problem was that the police failed to close off the tunnel to the central pens and divert the crowd to the side terraces, that still had plenty of room to accommodate more fans. Anyone who had ever been in the Leppings Lane End knew almost immediately why the crush occurred. If the police had held their hands up at the time, we could have spared the relatives of the victims a great deal of additional stress and trauma, and a huge public outlay of cash to defend and later accuse police officers.

I remember being in that end before it had fences, and I wouldn't go to Wednesday once the fences went up,  I'm not claiming any great foresight on my part, and it may be the front of the terrrace being below pitch level that bugged me, but it didn't feel safe there, even by the standards of the 70s.

[Dave]

Exactly right Joeboy. Duckenfield fucked up and then SYP lied their arses off in order to shift blame onto the innocent and the victims. 35 years on, as we saw from Mercian’s post, the lies of those who swore to uphold the laws of the land live on.

I was six years into a thirty year Met civil service career when Hillsborough happened. I was on the terraces at Upton Park the day it happened. I went into work on the Monday and heard mate after mate blame the fans. I cracked and said “I think we’ll find out it was the police’s fault”. What I said didn’t get a good reaction it’s fair to say. Many of my police mates still blame the fans. It’s a mind-set.

[mercian]

Dec 7, 2023 11:43:05 GMT leftieliberal said:

Most of our recent inflation was caused by corporate greed.

Carsten Jung, head of economics at the IPPR, said the work of Isabella Weber, an economist at the University of Massachusetts, showed how “systemic sectors” can have an outsized impact on inflation across the wider economy.

The report echoes research by the Unite union, which last year revealed how the biggest price increases affecting the UK consumer prices index (CPI) were driven by firms that either maintained or improved their profit margins.

Among the companies that increased their profits most from the pre-pandemic average were:

ExxonMobil: profits of £15bn increased to £53bn
Shell: £16bn up to £44bn
Glencore: £1.9 bn up to £14.8bn
Archer-Daniels-Midland: £1.4bn up to £3.16bn
Kraft Heinz: £265m up to £1.8bn

Higher taxes on corporate profits are needed now. 

The problem is that UK branches of multinationals generally make little profit. This is because profits are redirected to their head offices via loan repayments, payments for use of the brand and so on.  I can see two possible solutions (there may well be others of course):
1) Every country in the world signs up to a minimum level of tax on profits. Fat chance. If even one country however small refused to sign up it would immediately become the head office location of every multinational.
2) Tax turnover in the UK. This could be done, but it would be very complicated because every industry has a different level of profit margin. Supermarkets are usually quite low (in the region of 5% I believe) whereas international consultant firms for instance would have a much higher margin. Therefore a different level of turnover tax would be needed for each industry unless it was made very low and even then it would penalise supermarkets more than consultants in my example. And of course the tax would be passed on to the consumer.

  

[mercian]

Dec 7, 2023 11:43:58 GMT steve said:

Peevish anger is not attractive and it doesn't make you look powerful. Somebody in the Tory party needs to explain that to Sunak, if there's anyone left in the party who remembers.

Says the pot.