steve
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Post by steve on Dec 7, 2023 11:53:19 GMT
Nice Christmas pics Do you lot all live in Downton Abbey!
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Dec 7, 2023 12:02:26 GMT
Remember all the fanfare about the tories announcing teaching maths to 18 years old More steady heads said it wasn't practical, as it turns out we will be lucky to teach maths upto the age of 16 They should just pass a law that there are enough teachers. Teacher's are experts and you know that we've had enough of them.
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patrickbrian
Member
These things seem small and undistinguishable, like far off mountains turned into clouds
Posts: 305
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Post by patrickbrian on Dec 7, 2023 12:03:19 GMT
For a while I've had a gut feeling the election will be in May. I know all the arguments against (i.e. they'll lose!), but watching the present shenanigans over an entirely pointless piece of legislation makes me think it all the more. Why would Sunak want to spend the summer fighting with factions in his own party when he and his family could be swanning it in Malibu, or wherever it is he goes? What's the difference in another few months when the party shows no sign of uniting behind him? But maybe what I hope for clouds my reason. And maybe I underestimate the attractions of power for politicians. I think a May election looks rather more likely after yesterday though.
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Dec 7, 2023 12:08:26 GMT
It would surely be karma if the Rwanda legislation was voted down through the machinations of those who want the Rwanda stupidity to go ahead, leaving their PM with nowhere to go to implement it. But what a waste of time, effort and our taxes.
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Post by alec on Dec 7, 2023 12:10:47 GMT
leftieliberal - very much my feeling too. I've read a couple of accounts from Australia, where home schooling is normal for many children. They say it's perfectly possible to do it well (although they are obviously set up for it) but interestingly, they also said that the concept of 'immunity debt' damage to the immune system from limited mixing with other children is complete bollocks.
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Dec 7, 2023 12:13:50 GMT
For a while I've had a gut feeling the election will be in May. I know all the arguments against (i.e. they'll lose!), but watching the present shenanigans over an entirely pointless piece of legislation makes me think it all the more. Why would Sunak want to spend the summer fighting with factions in his own party when he and his family could be swanning it in Malibu, or wherever it is he goes? What's the difference in another few months when the party shows no sign of uniting behind him? But maybe what I hope for clouds my reason. And maybe I underestimate the attractions of power for politicians. I think a May election looks rather more likely after yesterday though. Do you think that there's anybody in the UK that believes the Tories have even a vague chance of winning the next GE whether it be May or October or anywhere in between. Just think, if this had been a coalition government, the minority party would have walked out years ago and let the country have its say.
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patrickbrian
Member
These things seem small and undistinguishable, like far off mountains turned into clouds
Posts: 305
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Post by patrickbrian on Dec 7, 2023 12:22:21 GMT
SDA
"Do you think that there's anybody in the UK that believes the Tories have even a vague chance of winning the next GE whether it be May or October or anywhere in between."
No. And not Sunak now. So what's the point for him?
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Dec 7, 2023 12:38:29 GMT
Best PM tracker
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Post by mandolinist on Dec 7, 2023 13:07:33 GMT
Benjamin Zephenia, cultural titan, poet, lovely man despite being a supporter of Aston Villa, has very sadly died at 65 years of age. A great loss.
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domjg
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Posts: 5,074
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Post by domjg on Dec 7, 2023 13:09:52 GMT
leftieliberal - very much my feeling too. I've read a couple of accounts from Australia, where home schooling is normal for many children. They say it's perfectly possible to do it well (although they are obviously set up for it) but interestingly, they also said that the concept of 'immunity debt' damage to the immune system from limited mixing with other children is complete bollocks. There will be a big 'socialisation debt' though and therefore a 'well being debt'. For that reason alone I've always thought that home schooling should be illegal unless unavoidable. It's really not healthy for a child to spend their entire time with their parents/family. Also school is about learning community values as well as education and you never know what some nutjob parents might be teaching their kids, with no chance of any counterbalance.
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Post by Mark on Dec 7, 2023 13:22:15 GMT
Benjamin Zephenia, cultural titan, poet, lovely man despite being a supporter of Aston Villa, has very sadly died at 65 years of age. A great loss. So, so so sorry to hear this. As well as his poetry and music, which he was - rightly - known for (if you are unfamiliar with his work, I urge you to check him out), he put in a couple of utterly blistering appearancs on BBC Question Time. He will be sadly missed....and at 65, WAY too young
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 7, 2023 13:40:07 GMT
You just haven't included where I did state what the problem is; I'll repeat it. The private school system spews out socially ignorant, opinionated, arrogant, self-important sociopaths like the crew that have been running the country the last 13 years. I dont see evidence they contain more sociopaths than any other school. Isnt this somewhat intrinsic to brain structure? In general though these seem to be exactly the sort of people who become politicians and national leaders, and still would absent any private schools. A sense of entitlement and generally being well off are usually characteristics of those who make up rulers of nations in every society. Even amongst state schools they divide between the sink schools, and the posh ones which all the posh people send their kids to in expectation they will become rulers too. If you did abolish every private school, you would not have solved your problem. (unless perhaps you were willing to spend the money you argue is unaffordable and raise every school to this same excellent level?) Thats a personal opinion, not any sort of actual evidence. Ditto, thats simply your opinion. But in this case I also think its objectively wrong and companies would seek such people because of their better than average skills with managing people. Its one of the areas state schools just ignore. yes, I think you are also buying some degree of preferrment when anyone sees that on your CV. But that doesnt mean it isnt justified, because that person is likely to have received a better than average education. If you mean their uncle will find them a well paid job in the family business, he would have done that anyway even if they attended a state school. Even gangsters do that sort of nepotism, its just that they dont have as much wealth to do it with. It sound like you just object to their families being rich anyway and passing it on. No. That is totally down to the failure by the state to properly educate the majority. We have no evidence what thy thought about their own ability. What we do know is that family money and connections bought them those jobs. Its not the schools, its the fact their family had wealth and used it to ensure the next generation would also have wealth. You are directed at the wrong target. Go out and equalise wealth distribution if you want equality. Buying education is just another example of the benefit of being wealthy. I do think that no one, however brilliant, would be able to do that job without the specialist knowledge. And we come back to failing state schools, or second class universities (which are all fee paying schools now). Obviously. But if it was posible to get state vouchers to pay to go to those private schools, don't you think many poor parents would apply? They know damn well it would benefit their kids. You just contradicted yourself. You started off saying that in the modern world everyone needs to be well educated. Fine, then fund state schools properly. After Grammars got abolished, what actually happened was a resurgence of private schools completely inaccesable to the likes of Ted Heath or Margaret Thatcher, it took away that ladder to the upper class however imperfect, and saw the creation of elite state schools for those who couldnt afford private. I can however say the schools in Hastings since the abolition of the grammar/High school system have all sunk to the same equally bad level. It was a levelling down process. Parents who can, move elsewhere, but of course that too is a cost in buying a home in a posher area as an alternative to the school fees. Poverty stricken marginal Hastings is surrounded by deep blue Rother, where I hear repots that schools in Bexhill, Battle and other smaller places are better. Funny that. So you would deny even those who can afford it in Hastings the chance to send their own kids to a better school. Maybe thats the sort of resoning why hastings is unable to get GP's. They dont fancy bringinging up their own families here. They have the choice to move to the catchment area of a different primary or secondary school. If they can afford it, so the fees are simply paid differently. Yes, there is choice at sixth form, but that choice amounts to paying the cost of travelling to a nearby town with a better one. Which at that lower level may still be prohibitive for some. Plus, many have an examination entry requirment, so they only take the best performing students anyway. But if you have done better because you went to that private secondary, you may then get into a decent state sixth form college. They would be idiots doing no service to their own children if they did. Such a policy though would ensure they stick in their same social class lifelong. Born in a slum, die in a slum. and back again to paid education, in service instead of cash.
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Post by alec on Dec 7, 2023 13:45:47 GMT
domjg - "There will be a big 'socialisation debt' though and therefore a 'well being debt'. For that reason alone I've always thought that home schooling should be illegal unless unavoidable. It's really not healthy for a child to spend their entire time with their parents/family. Also school is about learning community values as well as education and you never know what some nutjob parents might be teaching their kids, with no chance of any counterbalance." Yes and no. While I was in past times quite scathing about middle class parents home schooling because schools 'weren't good enough for our children', I've since mellowed a little (pre dating covid) and think we need to take a more child centred view on this. The change in my outlook came about largely as part of the process we went through discovering and understanding my partners diagnosis with a form of autism, and learning a little more about that entire subject. For a surprising number of children, school is an absolute nightmare, and nothing more than a period to be endured. (25% is a commonly cited figure). Home schooling, or at least a different type of schooling, would allow these children to thrive far more and would go a long way to reduce childhood mental stress. It's just that we've decided schools should operate with 30+ children per class, because that suits society as it's efficient to deliver. Sod the kids who can't take that environment. Aside from children with specific needs, there is also a wealth of data emerging that demonstrates how group learning is detrimental to all children. It's an obsession of educationalists to get children working in groups, doing talks and presentations, and targeting 'quiet' children who engage a little less for remedial 'help'. The research actually shows that children perform better, are more imaginative and better rounded as individuals, when they spend more time on their own, engaged in solo learning. But so strong is the dominance of the extrovert mindset these days, all children have to conform to a false ideal. That's not to say that staying at home as the default position is a great idea, but it is striking that children who are home schooled for whatever reason, or who go to much smaller rural schools, actually seem to be better socialised than their counterparts in large, soulless urban environments. Specifically on covid and lockdowns, I seriously doubt any persistent 'socialisation debt'. Apart from socialisation via online activity, which continued unabated, the actual periods when children were off school was negligible (shorter in many cases than the annual summer break). We've even seen schools trying to blame lockdowns for new entrants to nurseries having speech and behavioural issues, even though this age group would have spent more time at home with their parents because of lockdowns, so should - in theory - have been potty trained quicker etc etc. There is so much nonsense about this, but once you factor in the precipitous decline in home health visitors, post natal support, speech therapy for toddlers etc etc, you start to see the true pattern; austerity stripped away much of the early years support system families need, and this is why some have struggled. It's a complex topic, but I would steer clear of blanket judgements about which type of schooling is best. I would though, just like to see education (at all levels) focus a bit more on analytical skills rather than presentational abilities.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 7, 2023 13:52:09 GMT
Johnson's appearance at the covid inquiry yesterday was widely criticised, and today will likely be the same. Much of the critique revolved around understanding the science and the timings of action, with delays proving hugely costly in terms of lives saved. Thats a contention, not a proven fact. As Sumption pointed out, and incredibly also a BBC journalist, the enquiry does not seem to be interested in talking to people with dissenting views on what was right or wrong action unless they were directly part of the process. Which had anyway excluded such people. Its not exactly going to give an impartial conclusion if that keeps up. Lens pulled you up on this. But there is plenty of evidence we more or less achieved herd immunity to the first covid strain during 2020...despite lockdown intended to prevent this happening! (hint: covid was always far milder than the 'credible worst possible case', plus it spread very easily so interventions didnt work. Plus the population was really in two parts, one lot cathcing it safely and then getting herd immunity ending spread. The other lot getting the serious illness. And it needed to be modelled like this. ) I did notice the Pisa report was criticised for not being representative of british schools. Most refused to take part. Presumably the ones willing to thought they would look good, and the ones refusing thought they would do badly.
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steve
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Posts: 12,107
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Post by steve on Dec 7, 2023 13:55:08 GMT
The pitch is looking nice.
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Danny
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Posts: 9,608
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Post by Danny on Dec 7, 2023 14:00:50 GMT
Remember all the fanfare about the tories announcing teaching maths to 18 years old More steady heads said it wasn't practical, as it turns out we will be lucky to teach maths upto the age of 16 This is not news, its been worsening for years. And its obvious why, relative pay for teachers keeps falling and career structures have been dismantled. Prospective teachers doing PGCE qualifications have long had a massive dropout rate, as soon as they start their in school training experience which they have to do at two different schools. Its interesting however that those doing so in private schools universally report how much better are the working conditions. Pay tends to be worse, of course, which probably doesnt help the industry as a whole. But it does mean they can still be a haven for the remaining competent teachers simply sick of the state school environment.
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Post by alec on Dec 7, 2023 14:02:42 GMT
Danny - "Thats a contention, not a proven fact." No, it is a proven fact. "But there is plenty of evidence we more or less achieved herd immunity to the first covid strain during 2020.." No, there is zero evidence for this, and abundance of evidence to the contrary. Please don't try to project your ignorance of what constitutes evidence onto the real world.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Dec 7, 2023 14:07:28 GMT
Looks like Sunak has made the situation worse...must be time for him to start banging on that he's not losing his marbles 😀
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Post by alec on Dec 7, 2023 14:08:02 GMT
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domjg
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Posts: 5,074
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Post by domjg on Dec 7, 2023 14:10:50 GMT
domjg - "There will be a big 'socialisation debt' though and therefore a 'well being debt'. For that reason alone I've always thought that home schooling should be illegal unless unavoidable. It's really not healthy for a child to spend their entire time with their parents/family. Also school is about learning community values as well as education and you never know what some nutjob parents might be teaching their kids, with no chance of any counterbalance." Yes and no. While I was in past times quite scathing about middle class parents home schooling because schools 'weren't good enough for our children', I've since mellowed a little (pre dating covid) and think we need to take a more child centred view on this. The change in my outlook came about largely as part of the process we went through discovering and understanding my partners diagnosis with a form of autism, and learning a little more about that entire subject. For a surprising number of children, school is an absolute nightmare, and nothing more than a period to be endured. (25% is a commonly cited figure). Home schooling, or at least a different type of schooling, would allow these children to thrive far more and would go a long way to reduce childhood mental stress. It's just that we've decided schools should operate with 30+ children per class, because that suits society as it's efficient to deliver. Sod the kids who can't take that environment. Aside from children with specific needs, there is also a wealth of data emerging that demonstrates how group learning is detrimental to all children. It's an obsession of educationalists to get children working in groups, doing talks and presentations, and targeting 'quiet' children who engage a little less for remedial 'help'. The research actually shows that children perform better, are more imaginative and better rounded as individuals, when they spend more time on their own, engaged in solo learning. But so strong is the dominance of the extrovert mindset these days, all children have to conform to a false ideal. That's not to say that staying at home as the default position is a great idea, but it is striking that children who are home schooled for whatever reason, or who go to much smaller rural schools, actually seem to be better socialised than their counterparts in large, soulless urban environments. Specifically on covid and lockdowns, I seriously doubt any persistent 'socialisation debt'. Apart from socialisation via online activity, which continued unabated, the actual periods when children were off school was negligible (shorter in many cases than the annual summer break). We've even seen schools trying to blame lockdowns for new entrants to nurseries having speech and behavioural issues, even though this age group would have spent more time at home with their parents because of lockdowns, so should - in theory - have been potty trained quicker etc etc. There is so much nonsense about this, but once you factor in the precipitous decline in home health visitors, post natal support, speech therapy for toddlers etc etc, you start to see the true pattern; austerity stripped away much of the early years support system families need, and this is why some have struggled. It's a complex topic, but I would steer clear of blanket judgements about which type of schooling is best. I would though, just like to see education (at all levels) focus a bit more on analytical skills rather than presentational abilities. I'm not going to get into the obvious points about human beings being built as social and collaborative and the old cliche about needing a village to raise a child as I'm really not interested but I do know as a parent whose child started school in 2020 and from parents with older kids and from talking to teachers that they were/are behind , significantly so in some cases in socialisation and many other skills and there have been frantic efforts by teachers to at least try to catch them up. Also many, many kids even of well-meaning parents were not 'home schooled' during covid in any meaningful way as with both parents working and trying to look after a children it was simply impossible and many households were flooded with stress. My best friend whose children were young teenagers at the time found them become listless and had great trouble getting them to do anything. Obviously a small, well appointed rural school is likely to be better than a large, urban one. No school? Far worse than either.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 7, 2023 14:13:01 GMT
The ONS has revised population estimates based on the updated 2021 census data.... Previously, from 2000 - 2010 mortality rates had declines by 2% a year. It was previously calculated that 2010 - 2020 saw this decline reduce to 0.5%, which is bad enough, but this latest revision removes 2/3rds of this. So you are saying more people are now dead because the census revised its figures? Unlucky for them, did they get a warning they were dead or just had it happen? I quoted stats based on actual counted deaths. The annual number was declining to 2011. It went up thereafter to 2019. Then we had a covid surge. Then it fell back, to below the level we might have expected from the projected trend 2011-19 plus still occuring covid deaths. The conclusion, some of those excess death from covid replaced deaths which would have occurred anyway. Thats pretty much what was expected at the outset. I dont see how complicating this with age adjusted mortality does anything except confuse what actually happened?
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Post by leftieliberal on Dec 7, 2023 14:14:05 GMT
For a while I've had a gut feeling the election will be in May. I know all the arguments against (i.e. they'll lose!), but watching the present shenanigans over an entirely pointless piece of legislation makes me think it all the more. Why would Sunak want to spend the summer fighting with factions in his own party when he and his family could be swanning it in Malibu, or wherever it is he goes? What's the difference in another few months when the party shows no sign of uniting behind him? But maybe what I hope for clouds my reason. And maybe I underestimate the attractions of power for politicians. I think a May election looks rather more likely after yesterday though. Quite apart from one's own political preferences, there is one good reason for a first Thursday in May General Election. It will be after the Budget, but before any consequences of the Budget have time to take effect, so a 'giveaway budget' could be a bribe to the electors and it would put Labour in the difficult position of having to say if they would reverse the changes. There is one reason for hanging on until the autumn Something might turn up. We can assume that Rishi Sunak is a 'dead man walking' as PM and leader of the Tory Party regardless of when the election takes place and as Liz Truss has now taken the prize of the most unsuccessful PM ever, one has to wonder why he wants to continue. My instinct is that he will announce his resignation as party leader once the election result is known and after a few months on the back benches will resign as an MP so he can take up non-executive directorships and, like Blair, get paid 'loadsamoney' for speaking on the lecture circuit.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Dec 7, 2023 14:16:26 GMT
Is anyone else not just a tad worried that a UK Government is writing legislation that specifically prevents UK Courts holding them to account?
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Danny
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Posts: 9,608
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Post by Danny on Dec 7, 2023 14:17:34 GMT
In profiles in courage news, Rishi Sunakered announced that his flag sinking ship pointless Rwanda legislation won't be a confidence issue, because he expects too many of his own head bangers to vote against it. They should get some votes for entertainment value. Whether he wants to go to the country in May or Autumn 2024, he certainly doesn't want to be forced to go in January, which would be the consequence of losing a vote of confidence. If thats his reasoning, he is in real trouble. He might simply have concluded it doesnt really matter whether the bill passes or not. If its defeated it will be mostly by labour votes, and he can blame them. Its labours fault we are drowning in refugees. That could be quite a good outcome for con.
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domjg
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Posts: 5,074
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Post by domjg on Dec 7, 2023 14:22:17 GMT
Is anyone else not just a tad worried that a UK Government is writing legislation that specifically prevents UK Courts holding them to account? It's quite the fashion among right wingers around the world these days.
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Danny
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Posts: 9,608
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Post by Danny on Dec 7, 2023 14:30:33 GMT
Wasn't it Humpty Dumpty who said that he believed two impossible things before breakfast? Perhaps a great fall is coming. The Queen in Alice in Wonderland: "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast" I think it was humpty dumpty in the same book who said approx 'when I use a word it means exactly what i intend it to mean'. Another very useful one for politicians. Did someone leave a copy in the cabinet room? But in the interests of pedantry, isnt it 'Alice through the looking glass'? Dodgson was a mathematician, so maybe he appeals to Sunak who favours maths.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 7, 2023 14:31:50 GMT
Danny - "Thats a contention, not a proven fact." No, it is a proven fact. "But there is plenty of evidence we more or less achieved herd immunity to the first covid strain during 2020.." No, there is zero evidence for this, and abundance of evidence to the contrary. Panto season!
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 7, 2023 14:37:49 GMT
There is one reason for hanging on until the autumn Something might turn up. Two. Nice cental London office with interesting wallpaper.
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Post by crossbat11 on Dec 7, 2023 15:30:22 GMT
Benjamin Zephaniah's finest hour. Born in Handsworth, equidistant between Villa Park and the Hawthorns, he chose the claret and blue path to righteousness. youtu.be/9YVOHu8qYSo?si=ixm3_v0bf1adh0dtFine poet and human being. Loved his cameo appearances in Peaky Blinders too. Very sad that he has passed away so suddenly in his mid 60s.
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Post by mandolinist on Dec 7, 2023 15:52:21 GMT
Benjamin Zephaniah's finest hour. Born in Handsworth, equidistant between Villa Park and the Hawthorns, he chose the claret and blue path to righteousness. youtu.be/9YVOHu8qYSo?si=ixm3_v0bf1adh0dtFine poet and human being. Loved his cameo appearances in Peaky Blinders too. Very sad that he has passed away so suddenly in his mid 60s. Ah, thanks for that Batty, I really hope he saw the match the other day.
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