steve
Member
Posts: 12,613
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Aug 20, 2023 12:11:05 GMT
Unlucky England La roja were just the better team on the night.
It happens.
El fútbol vuelve a casa
|
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,566
|
Post by pjw1961 on Aug 20, 2023 12:22:29 GMT
We will eventually rejoin for exactly the same reason we did the first time - the British economy desperately needs the EU markets. The advantage over 1/1/1973 may be that next time we will fully understand what we are joining. Not sure how long this will take - I suspect a lengthy period of growing alignment followed by it happening very quickly as the current generation of politicians disappear off the stage with their baggage. We will of course need to sign up to everything. |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,566
|
Post by pjw1961 on Aug 20, 2023 12:26:49 GMT
Unlucky England La roja were just the better team on the night. It happens. El fútbol vuelve a casa Good defending and goalkeeping, but apart from that one shot which hit the bar, I don't recollect England creating a single scoring opportunity. Spain deserved their win, and a one goal margin was about right. |
|
Mr Poppy
Member
Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
|
Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 20, 2023 12:33:33 GMT
More of the 'we screwed ourselves over but now let's just live with it' attitude. That seems to be all brexiters have left these days (except jib who still pretends it's going great). No, we will not live with it. Rejoin may be a long way off, but gradual realignment leading back to the single market and free movement is a game that is most definitely on in the years to come. From David Smith. 12 Jun'16 (ie just before EURef):
Britain succeeds in the EU: we'd be daft to leave itwww.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-succeeds-in-the-eu-wed-be-daft-to-leave-it-q292ql3vtHe was/is a EUphile and a bit of neoliberal. Very Cameron-esque IMO. Like everyone he is entitled to his view and perhaps being Summer then not much he could find to talk about for his weekly few inches in the Times? As constantly stated then if anyone does actually want to Rejoin then get that campaign going. Maybe Gina Miller for PM given LAB and LDEM have moved on and SNP are limited to Scotland (and need to Leave.UK first)? |
|
Mr Poppy
Member
Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
|
Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 20, 2023 12:38:57 GMT
69% think humans are mostly-entirely responsible with only 13% still in some state of 'climate denial' (ie total denial or the link to human activity). That looks a very 'popular opinion' that the main parties are now ignoring.
?
|
|
|
|
Post by graham on Aug 20, 2023 13:02:20 GMT
graham I can't recall any junior partner in a U.K. coalition bringing their government down. Can you? I'm also a tad surprised why you think I need to defend the liberal democrats in coalition, I didn't vote for them, I didn't want the coalition with the Tories ,if the election maths had worked out for a stable coalition between my party then Labour and the lib dems I would have been fine with that after all I was a member of the Labour party and wanted to see them stay in government.Even If something could have been cobbled together that would have lasted a year or two would have been better than letting Lord snooty in. If the lib dems had then brought such a coalition government down you would naturally have called them traitors or something like that and I too would have been mightily pissed off. Like it or not the lib dems signed up to the coalition with the Tories, I take it we can agree that we would have much preferred they hadn't. Now back to the football. I can recall no example of a junior partner having the power to do that - but the LDs did! |
|
|
|
Post by graham on Aug 20, 2023 13:07:06 GMT
Well if I see a certain lady in church tonight I shall be able to say 'Rejoice at that news!'
|
|
|
|
Post by jib on Aug 20, 2023 13:18:54 GMT
More of the 'we screwed ourselves over but now let's just live with it' attitude. That seems to be all brexiters have left these days (except jib who still pretends it's going great). No, we will not live with it. Rejoin may be a long way off, but gradual realignment leading back to the single market and free movement is a game that is most definitely on in the years to come. I always read him as opposed to Brexit. Norway+ was my preferred outcome, but accept any Brexit was preferable to no Brexit. We will gradually move to that position, but any idea of rejoin as the UK is for the birds. |
|
Mr Poppy
Member
Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
|
Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 20, 2023 13:36:21 GMT
.. Go back and play with your crayons. The lady doth protest too much, methinks. I would vote Lib Dem if necessary to get rid of a Tory MP, fortunately not my situation in Oxford East, but what the the Lib Dems did in coalition is unforgiveable. They were enthusiastic supporters of the unnecessary policy of austerity which has delivered the current decrepit state of the entire public realm and also created the environment for the vote to leave the EU. They also managed to bugger up the opportunity to change our electoral system to one that values every vote. Had the coalition quislings publicly recanted and bowed out of front-line politics then your plea to forget what they did before May 2015 might be more persuasive, but Ed Davey was on the coalition front bench. In fairness to LDEM then they always said we should 'live within our means' and into GE'10 then even Brown-LAB had realised that the out of control spending and 'off balance sheet' debt of the Blair-Brown era needed a period of 'Swabian Housewife-ness' from UK HMG Similar now as both main parties are saying "no money left" (ie back to living within our means and no Magic Money Tree) and hence why LDEM are back to having a preference for Red Tory (versus Blue Tory) but IIRC there is saying about "fool me* once..."LDEM are IMO a 'virus' whose sole purpose is to create more of their own kind (ie get UK to adopt PR so they get more MPs). The naive view is then, as CoCs willing to mutate to whatever the main party needs them to be, that they would always be chosen as a coalition partner and get some red briefcases and ministerial** cars from whichever primary colour of Tory won most seats but needed a lackey/scapegoat/muppet like Nick Clegg or Ed Davey to get the blame for any unpopular stuff. What is bizarre is that LDEM claim to be pro-EU (but don't want to Rejoin.EU as that might upset Starmer?) but seem oblivious to what is happening in many EU countries that have PR. Of note is that RUK also want PR and hence 'be careful what you wish for'. UK might skip the years of failed CoC govts and go straight to the kind of govt that Italy/Sweden/Finland have and Germany/others might soon have or at least adopt Danish/Belgium approaches to some of the 'liberal' stuff and ensure UK has the most hostile environment amongst it's neighbours to ensure UK is not #1 on the 'asylum shopping list'. One thing for sure ZERO people will vote for a coalition govt (unless LDEM agree a pre-election pact) yet LDEM will claim a democratic mandate as Starmer's sockpuppets if given the chance for some red briefcases and ministerial cars. If CON again offer LDEM nicer terms (eg a few more cars) to form a coalition then would the man who spent 5yrs "fighting" CON by being their grunt once, say no a second time? Most politicians have no shame and Davey has already shown that once. * Not me personally. I lived abroad in GE'10 so DNV. However, I can see why some people were 'fooled' once in GE'10. It's the desire to risk being 'fooled twice' that is laughable, but it seems 9%ish of people want to see if repeating the same mistake gives a different result next time.  ** I make the assumption that Starmer is smart enough to see LDEM in the same way most intelligent people would. Hence why I've suggested that even if LAB win an OM then maybe get some LDEM MPs into certain roles. H.Sec would seem the obvious one, then despatch Davey to France to ask for a 'Returns' deal and when France says 'non' then LDEM take blame. 'Tis what a Tory would do  |
|
Mr Poppy
Member
Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
|
Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 20, 2023 13:43:54 GMT
I always read him as opposed to Brexit. Norway+ was my preferred outcome, but accept any Brexit was preferable to no Brexit. We will gradually move to that position, but any idea of rejoin as the UK is for the birds. Norway- perhaps (with 'minus' being ££billions of payments and 'purple passports'). Also perhaps EU join CPTPP. Perhaps Macron's EPC covers enough of the bits where 'shared sovereignty' with our near neighbours make sense. Perhaps EU breaks up and/or at least shifts back to just being a 'FREE trade deal' (which UK joins, provided no ££billions or 'purple passports'). Perhaps IF/when the Rejoiners stop just 'Carry on Moaning' and get of their arses/keyboards they'll want full-fat EU (with € and no vetos on other stuff). It is up to those who want to change the relationship to propose how it should change. I'm fine with the current deal and 'Entente'. Our relationship with EU countries and the EC-EU will evolve with time/events. I'll leave the crystal ball 💩 to others... Where there is a will there is a way but... |
|
Mr Poppy
Member
Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
|
Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 20, 2023 13:55:46 GMT
graham I can't recall any junior partner in a U.K. coalition bringing their government down. Can you? I'm also a tad surprised why you think I need to defend the liberal democrats in coalition, I didn't vote for them, I didn't want the coalition with the Tories ,if the election maths had worked out for a stable coalition between my party then Labour and the lib dems I would have been fine with that after all I was a member of the Labour party and wanted to see them stay in government.Even If something could have been cobbled together that would have lasted a year or two would have been better than letting Lord snooty in. If the lib dems had then brought such a coalition government down you would naturally have called them traitors or something like that and I too would have been mightily pissed off. Like it or not the lib dems signed up to the coalition with the Tories, I take it we can agree that we would have much preferred they hadn't. Now back to the football. I can recall no example of a junior partner having the power to do that - but the LDs did! Well.... technically not, or at least not immediately/directly, after they signed up to the "short-lived constitutional experiment"* known as the Fixed Term Parliament Act (2011) Although they could have gone on 'strike' and used the FTPA to force CON to do whatever LDEM wanted them to do (rather than the opposite and be CON's flunkies). In a parallel universe somewhere then perhaps Davey+co stop working for CON and went on strike in say 2012?!? How long the strike lasted before MPs repealed the FTPA and had a new GE I dunno. My access to the multiverse isn't as good as some others - I just get snippets of 'what could have been' rather than being able to state as hard facts what the outcome of those 'plausible scenarios' might have been. * en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011 |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,613
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Aug 20, 2023 14:02:25 GMT
grahamThere were coalition national government's from 1931 to 1940 and a wartime coalition government from 40 to 45. Calaghan entered into a pact with the Liberals from 1977 to 1978 and Blair was in formal negotiations with Paddy Ashdown's liberal democrats in 1996/7 to form a coalition in the event Labour didn't hold an outright majority. During none of the national government's did the minority parties withdraw. So your point appears to be that the liberal democrats didn't do what you wanted them to do , that's a coincidence they didn't do what I wanted them to do either, but given that neither of us voted for them ( unless you did of course) while that's irritating neither of us had much of a mandate to criticise them.
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,613
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Aug 20, 2023 14:04:58 GMT
Trevor your post 30 minutes ago  |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,315
|
Post by Danny on Aug 20, 2023 14:10:37 GMT
Speaking of romanticising (or irrelevant drivel that ignores facts like Italy (part of EU) having totally lost control of immigration) then the Groan are pumping out the 'Brexit is a bit shit' stories still: I cant help thinking Britain has no more control over immigration than Italy. Its just not so many have chosen to come here. Quite a lot less shit? It's good you recognise that leavers have thrown away something the UK can never recover, but we can start moving in the right direction again. We will have to. It very ironic that the party which understands this most is the conservatives, and I can quite see them born again at the next but one election saying we need to be closer to the EU. |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,315
|
Post by Danny on Aug 20, 2023 14:18:21 GMT
I always read him as opposed to Brexit. Norway+ was my preferred outcome, You mean the vassal state option? Where we follow the rules but dont make them? Must admit, the Uk has not shown any sense lately in making rules, so possibly we would be better off as you suggest, as a vassal of the EU. You understand that the reason this did not happen was because the leave brigade understand a half way house is exactly a vassal state? Worse than membership from their perspective. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2023 14:18:54 GMT
No idea whether it was relevant but, at the end of a long and hard tournament it doesn’t see right that one team should have a full day’s recovery time less than their opponent. Why not aim to play the semi-finals on the same day so that the difference is then only a matter of limited hours?
|
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,315
|
Post by Danny on Aug 20, 2023 14:23:54 GMT
the fact that some NHS trusts are advising symptomatic staff to return to work without covid tests if 'they feel able to' is a sure sign that the NHS is failing. On the contrary, its a sign the NHS no longer believe special measures against covid are useful. Its just being treated like any other cold virus. Its an acceptance that in a resource starved organisation careful choices need to be made how best to use resources, and telling people to take a holiday for a bit of covid isnt a good use of resources. You miss the point that the people who would be at risk from covid are also at risk from many other viruses circulating. There isnt anything special about covid. Hospitals are absolutely not guaranteed as safe places for the sick. |
|
|
|
Post by alec on Aug 20, 2023 14:28:09 GMT
Danny - "On the contrary, its a sign the NHS no longer believe special measures against covid are useful. Its just being treated like any other cold virus. Its an acceptance that in a resource starved organisation careful choices need to be made how best to use resources,..." Given the known risks of HAI, the known extension of hospital stays from covid infection, and the risks to staff of working while covid +ve, it's obviously a stupid idea. Yes, it may be a sign of stressed resource, but it will only make matters worse.
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,613
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Aug 20, 2023 14:38:48 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by leftieliberal on Aug 20, 2023 14:46:08 GMT
Unlucky England La roja were just the better team on the night. It happens. El fútbol vuelve a casa Good defending and goalkeeping, but apart from that one shot which hit the bar, I don't recollect England creating a single scoring opportunity. Spain deserved their win, and a one goal margin was about right. I was pleased Earp saved what was a soft penalty decision. Having seen MOTD and penalty decisions that were not given this weekend in the Premier League, and also the positioning of the referee in the World Cup Final, VAR should never have asked her to go to the monitor as it clearly wasn't a serious mistake by the referee. Spain were also very lucky to have 11 players on the pitch at the end; I thought that elbow into Alex Greenwood's head should have been a straight red card instead of a yellow; again it would have been in the Premier League. So for me, Spain were the better side but got the rub of the green in refereeing decisions. |
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on Aug 20, 2023 14:51:11 GMT
Just back from a few days in the Highlands, taking in my cousin's art exhibition and the natural wonders of the countryside.
|
|
|
|
Post by leftieliberal on Aug 20, 2023 14:53:49 GMT
graham There were coalition national government's from 1931 to 1940 and a wartime coalition government from 40 to 45. Calaghan entered into a pact with the Liberals from 1977 to 1978 and Blair was in formal negotiations with Paddy Ashdown's liberal democrats in 1996/7 to form a coalition in the event Labour didn't hold an outright majority. During none of the national government's did the minority parties withdraw. So your point appears to be that the liberal democrats didn't do what you wanted them to do , that's a coincidence they didn't do what I wanted them to do either, but given that neither of us voted for them ( unless you did of course) while that's irritating neither of us had much of a mandate to criticise them. Plus the Lib Dems were in coalition with Labour in the Scottish Parliament before the rise of the SNP, and also in the Welsh Senedd (1999-2003 and 2016-2021). |
|
|
|
Post by barbara on Aug 20, 2023 14:58:32 GMT
Well if I see a certain lady in church tonight I shall be able to say 'Rejoice at that news!' So it's perfectly OK to mention if it's a result you like. You're a hypocrite of the highest order. |
|
|
|
Post by barbara on Aug 20, 2023 15:03:11 GMT
Talk about Christian forgiveness. It's totally alien to you!
|
|
|
|
Post by pete on Aug 20, 2023 15:03:30 GMT
Variant watch: I posted a couple of nights ago about a new and radically different variant with a shed load of mutations that had appeared in sequencing from 3 samples in Israel and Denmark. The genetic distance of this one from current lineages is huge - about the same as the original Omicron leap, so this was noteworthy. Well things have moved rather rapidly. The WHO today denoted this as a 'variant under monitoring', which is unheard of speed. We've ever seen a variant given a formal demarcation like this so rapidly, with so few cases, so it's clear that the WHO are worried. It's also now been named BA.2.86 A few hours ago we also had news that a 4th case has been found in Michigan, so it's starting to look like this is already spreading. The rate of spread will be key here. It may still prove a complete dud, and become one of the fascinating variants with alarming potential but which failed to transmit widely, but with four unconnected cases in three different regions that's looking more of a long shot. Ryan Hisner, the legendary amateur sequence spotter has also just posted this comment: "If a new variant spreads slowly, the early sequences are likely to differ from each other by quite a few mutations because different branches of the variant have had a lot of time to gain mutations. But if it spreads rapidly, early sequences will be very similar...At first it looked like the BA.2.86 seq from Israel & Denmark were significantly different. The Michigan sequence suggests the apparent differences were mostly sequencing artifacts & that all 4 seq are in fact very similar. The chances this is spreading rapidly just went way up." This would be very significant, because this variant branched off the Omicron tree from variants circulating over a year ago, and the spike mutations make it completely different to the currently circulating XBB variants, which the latest vaccines are based on. So it's quite likely to be highly immune evasive, from either past infection or vaccines, and may be rapidly spreading. The only question is whether it is more or less virulent. That is a function of the virus itself and how it interacts with existing immunity, but even with just four cases identified, this variant has got the trackers worried more than any other variant since Omicron. And interesting, there are multiple reports of CDC officials, fully masked, inviting arrivals at JFK and other international airports in the US to give PCR tests for sequencing. They are being told that the tests will be anonymous, but will be used for tracking variants. So it looks like the CDC is getting nervous about the situation too. Whether this is variant X is still to be seen, but this huge genetic leap is yet another warning that covid is far from done with us. There is no viable way out of this until we get serious about the simple things, all of which involve the reduction of transmission. Like we've dealt with every other serious disease in human history. Am I misremembering? Wasn't there some nasal spray that stopped Covid/made it weaker? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2023 15:10:35 GMT
Well if I see a certain lady in church tonight I shall be able to say 'Rejoice at that news!' There’s weird and then there’s very seriously weird. |
|
|
|
Post by leftieliberal on Aug 20, 2023 15:24:52 GMT
www.theguardian.com/money/2023/aug/20/earned-income-taxed-more-heavily-than-capital-gains-in-uk-thinktank-findsA graduate earning £35,000 a year pays almost double the average tax of someone with same income from rent on property, according to a study of inequality in the UK tax system.The combined effect of income tax and national insurance payments forces people in employment to pay much higher rates of tax than those who benefit from lower capital gains tax (CGT) rates on property and shares income, according to the Intergenerational Foundation thinktank.
In a separate example that also emphasises the gap between the mainly older people who generate an income from property and shares and those who rely on employment, a person receiving £60,000 a year in the form of capital gains or dividends pays less tax than someone aged 16 to 64 in a job earning £35,000.Based on analysis of HMRC data, the foundation said increasing CGT rates to the same level as rates on earned income would raise at least £10bn extra a year, allowing the government to cut tax rates at each income tax threshold by at least 1.25 percentage points.
The momentum behind calls for the equalisation of capital and employment tax rates has grown in recent years. Recent polling has shown support across the political spectrum, with 61% overall saying they back reform.Former Conservative chancellor Nigel Lawson set the rates of CGT at the same level as income tax in 1988, saying: “In principle, there is little economic difference between [earned] income and capital gains ... And in so far as there is a difference, it is by no means clear why one should be taxed more heavily than the other.”
Since Lawson’s time in office, capitals gains have risen 16 times from below £5bn a year to an estimated £80bn in the financial year 2020-21, but the amount of tax raised from capital gains has only risen three times to about £15bn.
Higher rate taxpayers earning more than £50,000 a year pay 42% on every extra pound earned from employment, but pay only 20% on gains from shares and 28% from gains on property.
Standard rate taxpayers, which includes most taxpayers over the age of 65, only pay 18% on property gains, 10% on gains from shares and 20% on rental income.It is indefensible that successive Chancellors of the Exchequer (both Tory and Labour) have failed to address this inequity. Nigel Lawson was hardly a Lefty but he recognised the need for fair taxation.
|
|
|
|
Post by graham on Aug 20, 2023 15:50:02 GMT
graham There were coalition national government's from 1931 to 1940 and a wartime coalition government from 40 to 45. Calaghan entered into a pact with the Liberals from 1977 to 1978 and Blair was in formal negotiations with Paddy Ashdown's liberal democrats in 1996/7 to form a coalition in the event Labour didn't hold an outright majority. During none of the national government's did the minority parties withdraw. So your point appears to be that the liberal democrats didn't do what you wanted them to do , that's a coincidence they didn't do what I wanted them to do either, but given that neither of us voted for them ( unless you did of course) while that's irritating neither of us had much of a mandate to criticise them. From October 1931 the Tories had a huge majority and were not dependent on the continued support of other parties which formed part of the National Government had those parties withdrawn , the Tories would still have been able to continue in office. The Lib/Lab pact was simply a Confidence & Supply arrangement similar to what the Tories had with the DUP post 2017 election.
|
|
|
|
Post by graham on Aug 20, 2023 15:52:33 GMT
Well if I see a certain lady in church tonight I shall be able to say 'Rejoice at that news!' So it's perfectly OK to mention if it's a result you like. You're a hypocrite of the highest order. Fotunately I am not one to gloat - and any remarks would be tete a tete not in public from the platform. It would be hypocritical were I to pipe up from the floor 'Who won the football today?' - but I shall remain silent. |
|
Mr Poppy
Member
Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
|
Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 20, 2023 16:14:03 GMT
I wonder if Rachel Swindon is 'Princess Rachel' formerly of UKPR parish? Seems to be dialling it up a notch and I find her quite interesting/amusing to read but Red Tory and Red Tory enablers should probably not read her articles: It does create a bit of a dilemma for CCHQ and possibly indirectly helps Starmer. The Far-Left (Corbynite/ista, xLW-LAB, etc) are making it very clear that Starmer is not Corbyn and after the demonising of Corbyn by Tory Plan A, B and the media then that helps Starmer as any attempt to portray Starmer as a (former) "friend" of Corbyn might fall on deaf ears. Of course it helps ensure Starmer stays on the 'Right' path and other than the disappointing 'can kicking' on tackling the 'Climate Emergency' and a few other issues where I'm LoS* then 'continuity CON' is fine by me * LoS = Left of Starmer. |
|
