11-AUG 2023 : LAB: 48% / CON: 24% / LDM: 10% / GRN: 6%

[steve]

@mark
Not really
Fewer young people over time does mean fewer older people but equally it also means even fewer young people.

A excellent example is China the one child policy meant that clearly the succeeding generation would be smaller, however even after the Chinese government cancelled the policy the impact is that there was already less people to have children and as the birth rate is still below replacement level it means the birth rate will continue to fall and the reverse pyramid of age cohort will continue.
China's population is on course to nearly half by 2080.

[alec]

steve - "...you don't get to criticise others for using the recorded international public health data from numerous countries because you don't like what they show"

Yes I bloody do, and it's phenomenally stupid of you to try to claim deliberately undercounted data is somehow sacrosanct.

I well remember many of your claims of deliberate distortion of 'official' data when it came to Brexit, so I suggest you grow up and accept that interpreting poor quality data with huge gaps is a perfectly valid exercise, and stop doing it only when you think it suits you.

[steve]

alec
Infantile rant, behave.
Maybe you should stick to the covid forum if you don't want to be questioned.
After all its only you and Danny see the posts there .
I also find it bizarre when in one breath you by criticise public health bodies for not recording as you want them to  and in the next you refer to a new variant detected by the very same public health bodies such as the CDC.

So what is it are they engaged in a cover up or investigating new variants diligently.
You don't get it both ways.
Oh and by the way don't be so bloody insulting to other forum users.

[steve]

Meanwhile someone who has a grasp on reality Gary Neville, slotting it into the back of the net regarding the regime's failing and class biased approach to education.

youtu.be/FHkqBkzWQ7Y

[alec]

Variant Update: BA.2.86 now appears to be confirmed in the UK. A sequence has been identified from a hospitalised patient in London, with a locally acquired case.

[Rafwan]

crossbat11

Nice post

[Mr Poppy]

Aug 18, 2023 8:00:07 GMT Mark said:

Aug 17, 2023 21:14:19 GMT mercian said:

Well I blame the pill for allowing women to choose not to have babies. 😁 The eventual drop in population when this idea spreads to Africa and other fecund places will cause major problems which we in the West (and China) are already beginning to see.  A relatively small number of workers will be supporting more and more retirees. Something will have to give. Possibilities:
1) The young will never be able to vote in a government that they want because they will always be heavily outnumbered. Therefore they will rebel and install dictators who will introduce voluntary and then compulsory euthanasia.  Actually some of this happens unofficially anyway with Do Not Resuscitate notices over beds and the 'Liverpool pathway' in the NHS.
2) We will develop, and have the resources to build enough robots to do nearly all work including care for the elderly and create enough wealth to give everyone a living wage whether they work or not. The last bit seems very unlikely because more and more wealth seems to be being channelled to fewer and fewer people because of multi-nationals.  

There may be others. 

Maybe I've got this wrong, but, here in the UK, there was a huge spike in births following WWII.

That generation are well into their 70s now. In 20 years time, there won't be that many of them still with us.

The birth rate has fallen since then, but, held relatively steady..IE it hasn't continued to fall in any meaningful sense.

Surely that means that the current situation of fewer younger people supporting greater numbers of older people will lessen in time.

Lots of complicating factors (eg some people working until they are older, although that has changed recently*) but in terms of 'old-age' dependency (which would relate to voter demographics and a discussion on polling implications) then UK is projected to rise from 30% to 50% in the next 50yrs. See: Chart A: Projected old-age dependency ratios in advanced economies

obr.uk/box/international-demographic-trends/

For a 'seat level' map see: www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/dvc499/oadr/index.html

There is also the historic fact that older people are more likely to vote (and see previous discussions WRT Corbyn-LAB 'vote stacking' in Uni/City seats). Hence why no party wants to 'punch' pensioners (see GE'17 campaign and LAB's attack ads on May) and doesn't seem that bothered to try to appeal to younger demographics who are concentrated in safe** LAB seats.

For economic impact then older people use a lot more healthcare services, which are becoming more expensive, but do spend money. Kids use eduction but don't spend much money. Some people use 'Age dependency ratio' which includes children (non-voting) on the 'dependency' side. UK has been fairly stable on that and less births 'helps'. Also less births is good for the planet and the issue of lower birth rates in many countries (and higher birth rates in Africa) has been covered many times. The 'kid starver' thing seems to get some people vexed but we don't want to be encouraging higher birth rate (IMO) so a very slightly lower birth rate is IMO a good thing - although something that would much better in Africa and elsewhere than UK. 

UK: data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.DPND?locations=GB
World Map: ourworldindata.org/grapher/age-dependency-ratio-of-working-age-population

* Higher annuity rates and post Covid then more recent data has shown less economic activity in older age groups but below covers many of the important points:
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/ageing/articles/livinglongerandoldagedependencywhatdoesthefuturehold/2019-06-24
** Up to the young people to decide on whether to vote for Starmer-LAB of course. Seems like a very good target for Greens IMO but no need to go over that again. 

[steve]

Fancy that

@sabahmeddings

Grimsby, once Europe's biggest fishing port, voted 70% for Brexit. But now voters say Brexit was rhetoric and broken promises.

“The fishing industry in the UK is smaller than the lawnmower industry,” says Patrick Salmon. “Nobody gives a toss, really.”

[Danny]

Aug 17, 2023 21:43:39 GMT alec said:

Well things have moved rather rapidly. The WHO today denoted this as a 'variant under monitoring', which is unheard of speed. We've ever seen a variant given a formal demarcation like this so rapidly, with so few cases, so it's clear that the WHO are worried. It's also now been named BA.2.86 A few hours ago we also had news that a 4th case has been found in Michigan, so it's starting to look like this is already spreading. The rate of spread will be key here. It may still prove a complete dud, and become one of the fascinating variants with alarming potential but which failed to transmit widely, but with four unconnected cases in three different regions that's looking more of a long shot. Ryan Hisner, the legendary amateur sequence spotter has also just posted this comment:

"If a new variant spreads slowly, the early sequences are likely to differ from each other by quite a few mutations because different branches of the variant have had a lot of time to gain mutations. But if it spreads rapidly, early sequences will be very similar...At first it looked like the BA.2.86 seq from Israel & Denmark were significantly different. The Michigan sequence suggests the apparent differences were mostly sequencing artifacts & that all 4 seq are in fact very similar. The chances this is spreading rapidly just went way up."

Dont you think it interesting that this variant has spread around the world, unnoticed. Thats despite our awareness of covid and all this testing going on?

And yet you persist in not believing that covid was circulating around the world in 2019. That it has always arrived places well before it got noticed. That its actually unreasonable to believe it did not arrive in the Uk in 2019 rather than 2020, because there was nothing to prevent it doing so as people migrated. And no one would notice, even if it caused some early deaths. Which it wouldnt, because the people spreading it were the young and socially active.

This would be very significant, because this variant branched off the Omicron tree from variants circulating over a year ago,

A whole year, unnoticed. I dare say that is resonable for the original strain too.

and the spike mutations make it completely different to the currently circulating XBB variants, which the latest vaccines are based on. So it's quite likely to be highly immune evasive, from either past infection or vaccines, and may be rapidly spreading.

So which way to you lean? Either it has spread fast, been spreading for a year, but no one has noticed any wave of deaths. Means its clear a dangerous variant can spread without anyone noticing, as happened in 2019. Or this one isnt dangerous at all, and thats why no one has noticed any change in deaths despite so much spread.

You are of course right that the vaccines concentrate on specific target areas of the virus, so its very likely immunity created by vaccine will be less protective against new variants than immunity created against infection. Although n the bright side, most people have had actual infections by now. The interesting question is whether thay are better protected if they at least started by having an infection rather than a vaccination.  (note, that doesnt necessarily mean vaccination is a bad thing, but that everyone who survived an infection first exposure will be better protected than anyone who had vaccine)

[Mr Poppy]

Aug 18, 2023 0:14:29 GMT @isa said:

...
Firstly, I notice that the 10 year gilt yield has risen to 4.746%, comfortably higher than anything seen even in 'peak Truss'. The knock-on effects for UK borrowing costs must be a little disconcerting for the Treasury, with all that entails for the rest of us....

Similar elsewhere. For mortgage rates then US market is 'long-end' but note:

US: Mortgage rates soar to their highest level in 21 years
edition.cnn.com/2023/08/17/homes/mortgage-rates-august-17/index.html#

UK rates (short-term fixes) have gone up a lot but some stability in the markets and a high level of competition has seen then drop back a bit recently:

UK: Mortgage rates keep falling even as City bets on more Bank of England hikes, with Halifax latest to cut prices
www.standard.co.uk/business/mortgage-rates-city-bets-bank-of-england-hikes-halifax-prices-property-homes-house-interest-b1101373.html

The issue of HMG 'fiscal discipline' and the chopping down of the Magic Money Tree has been covered many times (eg LAB saying "there is no money left") and whilst BoE are still 'actively' reducing the APF then they did at least switch to shorter maturity bonds last week (although given current yields then IMO the unwinding of the 'crazy' years should be 'passive' for now). HMG set the BoE mandate but after the Truss era then BoE are behaving as if they are 'untouchable' on their mission to force a recession to crush inflation (IMO and IPPR*, various others)
www.bankofengland.co.uk/markets/bank-of-england-market-operations-guide/results-and-usage-data

* 

?

[Danny]

Aug 17, 2023 21:50:45 GMT jib said:

Yes. I'm sure you've seen Logan's Run.

Modern discoveries suggest we all have a built in clock which is steadily ticking town to the point our cells self destruct. That wasnt Logan's run, but a different film plot?

[crossbat11]

Aug 18, 2023 9:01:21 GMT steve said:

Fancy that

@sabahmeddings

Grimsby, once Europe's biggest fishing port, voted 70% for Brexit. But now voters say Brexit was rhetoric and broken promises.

“The fishing industry in the UK is smaller than the lawnmower industry,” says Patrick Salmon. “Nobody gives a toss, really.”

A wind-up, surely?? A bloke called Patrick Salmon commenting on the fishing industry.

He's spouting cod economics too.

🥴🤣🇻🇳

[Danny]

Aug 18, 2023 5:57:53 GMT steve said:

On August 5th world wide the reported deaths from covid numbered 145, world wide.
On the same day around 170,000 people died of causes unrelated to covid. Currently covid is no where near the top 20 causes of death world wide.
Hiv/aids is 14th.

Uk government dashboard reporting average of about 7 deaths a day currently. This is a minimum since approximaely the same time last year, when the minimum 7 day average was about 30. So at the moment there is no evdience covid has ended or will not grow again, but it continues of a dowwards trend. We can reasonably expect deaths to rise through the winter on a traditional pattern.

The data does look approximately like 4 waves of covid April 20, jan 21, and then after the vaccination program two very drawn out waves lasting practically a year each, highest in winter but mostly largely constant compared to the two original natural waves before vaccines. Its interesting to wonder what causes the superimposed oscillation in numbers with a period of about three months.

[Danny]

Aug 18, 2023 6:22:49 GMT alec said:

steve - I don't anyone seriously bothers about 'official' covid data anymore. It's complete bunkum.

Are you saying you do not believe the official covid deaths numbers, that you believe they are much higher?

I would point out that if you think they are big under reports, then covid deaths over the last couple of years would have been much the same as in 2020, in other words interventions or vaccines had achieved nothing? Is that your position?

[Mr Poppy]

Ah but it's not the taking part, it's the winning that counts (which as covered earlier means appealing to older voters and hoping younger voters continue to vote ABCON) and nothing is sacred under Starmer's 'New' management:

NB I approve of the above moves from LAB. Probably won't vote for them but nice to see them become ever more Tory on 'Economic' stuff. Just the green stuff that I find disappointing. 

[steve]

Sorry for setting them off.


Attachment Deleted

[alec]

Danny - "Dont you think it interesting that this variant has spread around the world, unnoticed. Thats despite our awareness of covid and all this testing going on?....A whole year, unnoticed. I dare say that is resonable for the original strain too."

No, it's not interesting - it's entirely to be expected. It's exactly what happens when you stop monitoring variants.

And no, it hasn't been circulating for a year - you're misunderstanding the science here. It split from Omicron a year ago, but this is almost certainly a variant spawned within a chronically infected individual that does not clear the virus. This doesn't mean necessarily that they are infectious (the virus appears in their shit, but often not through aerosol form from the lungs). At some point relatively recently the infection would have pepped up in that individual for some reason, and the variant was passed on, and then started to circulate.

We've picked this up from hospital case surveillance anyway, which is another example of why covid wasn't circulating widely in early/mid 2019. We'd have seen it.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Aug 18, 2023 0:14:29 GMT @isa said:

Welcome to this evening's edition of 'Isa for Insomniacs' (© crossbat11 ). Having been away for a week or so, some random jottings. 

Firstly, I notice that the 10 year gilt yield has risen to 4.746%, comfortably higher than anything seen even in 'peak Truss'. The knock-on effects for UK borrowing costs must be a little disconcerting for the Treasury, with all that entails for the rest of us.

www.marketwatch.com/investing/bond/tmbmkgb-10y?countrycode=bx

Secondly, the lack of much polling/political activity in the 'silly season' is certainly reflected in much of the recent discourse on UKPR2. Some very interesting thoughts being aired on a wide range of topics.

Finally, an observation on discussions with some of my social circle of late. Several are well-heeled and very comfortably off. Negligible or non-existent mortgages, large incomes and/or pensions, mid-late fifties onwards demographic. Unlike many of the population, the cost of living crisis, energy costs and mortgage rate increases have been a minor inconvenience, rather than the almost existential threat which some have, and will continue to, experience. 

In the absence of such grim reality, I see some are filling this void by getting themselves into a right old lather about 'woke' issues, regularly fuelled by getting much of their 'news' from the Mail online feed, thereby constantly reinforcing this indignant thought process. I have seen this happening first hand of late and really was quite shocked.

My takeaway from this is that, for a relatively small demographic, probably less than c30% of the population, 'wokism'? is a very real issue, which I suspect the Sunak administration will do its utmost to shore up, since they make up a significant proportion of CON VI.

However, I suspect a lot more people will be much more concerned for the likely foreseeable with just getting through the month keeping body and soul together and a roof over their head. I'm not sure many of these will be thanking CON at the ballot box next year.

As others have noted, an issue with inflated property prices and better pensions, is that more oldies may be relatively insulated from the economy, and therefore don’t need to take the welfare of those of working age into account as a priority and therefore can pursue other things. A related issue, is that you now have rather more of these people who have a lot more time to pursue their agendas, whereas younger people are busy trying to make ends meet. 

It is even harder for younger people, busy working and raising families, to have much time to follow politics these days, especially now that it is more the case that both parents have to work, and may hold down more than one job to make ends meet, or juggling assorted zero hours et cetera. 

So it isn’t just the numbers of the elderly that are an issue, but their economic insulation, and the amount of time that they have, which may skew things. (This may have an impact on parties as well, with the older activists dominating as they have more time? Others will know more about that of course)

[Deleted]

Aug 18, 2023 0:14:29 GMT @isa said:

In the absence of such grim reality, I see some are filling this void by getting themselves into a right old lather about 'woke' issues, regularly fuelled by getting much of their 'news' from the Mail online feed, thereby constantly reinforcing this indignant thought process. I have seen this happening first hand of late and really was quite shocked.

My takeaway from this is that, for a relatively small demographic, probably less than c30% of the population, 'wokism'? is a very real issue,

Quite interested in the continuing evocation of the DM reader as regressive  angry old Tory voter-and indeed your projection from personal anecdote of  up to 20m such people.

So had a look at some stats.

DM print circulation is around 800k ( higher on Sats)-said to equate to around 2.5m readers.
Demographic is  54% female to 46% male. 83%  homeowners and 69% own their homes outright.Some 63% are ABC1 (upper and middle class).Average age of a reader is 56.

Mailonline has 4 million unique visits per day.( 37% in USA/35% in UK). Demograhic is 39% female to 61% male. 66% ABC1. 27% 25-34 years old; 18% 35-44 years old; 17% 18-24 years old; 15% 45-54 years old; 13% 55-64 years old ; 10% over 65 years old.
Mailonline users' "top topics" are News & Shopping.Other websites visited are :guardian.com/wikipedia.org/
bbc.com /mirror.co.uk /thesun.co.uk .Highest Social Media distribution is Facebook (30%) and Twitter ( 24%)

( sources a variety of media data sites)

So it looks like your " less than 30% of the population" is certainly correct-by some margin.

Not sure about them being old-certainly not the online users.

With regard to "wokeism" a 2022 YouGov Poll indicated that 43% of the population had heard this term being used, but were not sure or had no idea what it means , or had never heard it being used. Of those who understood what it means ( 57%), when asked "Do you ever use the term 'woke' to describe a set of beliefs, or people with a set of beliefs? "only 29% said Yes (17% of the population) 

Of those who understood what "woke" means, 24% thought it was " a good thing" and 41% " a bad thing"

So it certainly looks like a small proportion of the population are in a " right old lather " about woke issues.:-
From the above maybe 41% X 17% =7% ?

[Deleted]

crossbat11

“ For example, I have absolutely no problem with Jeremy Corbyn's alleged comfortably off childhood and upbringing. Good on him for then going in to make a political career out of championing causes that helped the poor and deprived sectors of society.”

I see it as a betrayal of the rich toffs that ensure the principle of trickle up - sorry….. down - economics continues to work. 

[crossbat11]

Aug 18, 2023 8:48:44 GMT Rafwan said:

crossbat11

Nice post

Thanks Rafwan.

I've liked your post as an indirect and more modest way of liking my own post!

😁👍🫣

[Deleted]

Cage fight in Rome for alec and steve? Batty is the ace sportsman and comes from a violent area himself so he can be referee.

I shall arrange ticketing.

[Deleted]

Aug 18, 2023 9:44:47 GMT Mr Poppy said:

Ah but it's not the taking part, it's the winning that counts (which as covered earlier means appealing to older voters and hoping younger voters continue to vote ABCON) and nothing is sacred under Starmer's 'New' management:

Well well.

In my continuing search for the real Starmer, an article in today's Times announces :-

"Tony Blair is history for class-conscious Keir Starmer

Leader defies New Labour orthodoxy by emphasising socioeconomic divides and pitching overtly to working people"

A conclusion which doesn't sit too easily with the policy you have just highlighted.

This article says I must forget ideas of TBI influence because :-

"Starmer wrote in The Scotsman this week. “My political project is to return Labour to the service of working people and working-class communities. There may have been times in the recent past where Labour was afraid to speak the language of class at all — but not my Labour Party. No, for me, smashing the ‘class ceiling’ that holds working people back is our defining purpose. Because you cannot seriously take on inequality, or poverty, or the pernicious idea that circumstances — who you are, where you come from, who you know — can still count for more than enterprise or imagination, without talking about class.”"

 The writer explains :-

"None of this necessarily means he has ripped up Blair’s armistice and rediscovered Marx. But how striking it is to watch a Labour leader quite literally embrace Blair one week and talk like this the next. It turns on its head the logic of New Labour, whose playbook Starmer often appears to have learnt by rote, and reveals that his is a very different project, despite appearances so painstakingly cultivated to the contrary."

And the reason ? :-

"From their regular focus groups  Starmer’s aides have inferred that class allegiance is elastic. If an economy is in rude health their target voters feel empowered to identify as middle class. If it isn’t, the same voters identify as working class. It is to these people, Conservative voters in 2019, that Starmer, like Boris Johnson, has chosen very deliberately to speak. “Mondeo Man this is not,”"



So there we have it-Starmer can be all things to all men because his target voters are BOTH middle class AND working class-depending how they feel.

[Deleted]

Aug 18, 2023 8:05:07 GMT crossbat11 said:

isa

An interesting post and I agree with much of what you say. My linking of your name with insomnia, by the way, was a piece of gratuitous alliteration rather than any implication that your posts had soporific effects on their readers! Perish the thought.

How affluence, and the living of a life largely devoid of any significant threats to ones material comforts, can influence political views has always intrigued me. The danger, and you have observed it, is that it can lead to people becoming inoculated from, and indifferent to, the lives led by people less fortunate than themselves. Their affluence can also afford them time to indulge and nurture perceived grievances. To imagine all sorts of outrages occurring in a world going to hell in a handcart. To think too that sinister forces are taking away all they hold dear. A moral panic and a fear of modernity. A ludicrous self-imposed siege mentality. Barbarians always at the gates. Invaders coming to get us.

There is nothing universal about this and some people who lead very comfortable and affluent lives recognise their essential good fortune, embrace the world and eschew the harbouring of grievance. They may try and change society in ways that make it more equal and where wellbeing and prosperity isn't so dependent on the fortune of birth, social class and inheritance.

People like this are often mocked by the right for their wokeism, middle class and effete liberalism and bleeding heart do-goodery, but I've always liked the idea of philanthropic class betrayal!

For example, I have absolutely no problem with Jeremy Corbyn's alleged comfortably off childhood and upbringing. Good on him for then going in to make a political career out of championing causes that helped the poor and deprived sectors of society. Ditto any other politician doing something similar.

It's politicians who think politics is about protecting affluence and privilege, and who pander to, and often generate, concocted fear who I tend to dislike.

Thanks, crossbat11. Your second paragraph, especially, expresses my thoughts more eloquently, (and elegantly!), than I managed, although hopefully the gist was there.

BTW, I think 'Isa for Insomniacs' is a cracking title!

[wb61]

Aug 18, 2023 10:00:10 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Aug 18, 2023 0:14:29 GMT @isa said:

As others have noted, an issue with inflated property prices and better pensions, is that more oldies may be relatively insulated from the economy, and therefore don’t need to take the welfare of those of working age into account as a priority and therefore can pursue other things. A related issue, is that you now have rather more of these people who have a lot more time to pursue their agendas, whereas younger people are busy trying to make ends meet. 

It is even harder for younger people, busy working and raising families, to have much time to follow politics these days, especially now that it is more the case thst both parents have to work, and may hold down more than one job to make ends meet, or juggling loads of zero hours et cetera. 

So it isn’t just the numbers of the elderly that are an issue, but their economic insulation, and the amount of time that they have, which may skew things.

What I find difficult to understand with this analysis (although I do not necessarily disagree with it as a conclusion) is why observation of the difficulties of their offspring or grandchildren would not impact on this outlook. Certainly in my own case I am very worried about the future stability in my children's finances, particularly as they have migrated towards London and the South East for work, given the volatility of renting that they face and that property purchase is beyond their reach completely at present.

[neilj]

Pleased with what Angela Rayner said this morning
'far from watering down' employment policy, Labour promises to legislate improved rights within 100 days...

"Labour’s New Deal for Working People will be the biggest levelling-up of workers’ rights in decades - providing security, treating workers fairly, and paying a decent wage.

We’ll tackle insecure work by banning zero-hours contracts, ending fire and rehire and ending qualifying periods for basic rights, which currently leave working people waiting up to two years for basic protections.

We’ll make work more family friendly by making flexible working a day one right except where it isn’t reasonably feasible, strengthening protections for pregnant women and by urgently reviewing parental leave.

And we’ll make sure work actually pays with a genuine living wage that covers the cost of living, ensuring fair tips, boosting collective rights - and by speeding up the closing of the gender pay gap.

I’m proud that we developed our comprehensive New Deal together with Labour’s affiliated unions. Far from watering it down, we will now set out in detail how we will implement it and tackle the Tories’ scaremongering.

Tackling bogus self-employment is a key priority for a Labour Government, and stronger protections against unfair dismissal will mean workers can no longer be sacked without reason from day one.

I’m delighted to be in Scotland this week - meeting apprentices in Glasgow - to explain why only Labour can deliver a New Deal for Working People in Scotland and across the UK. We know this will resonate in workplaces and on the doorstep.

The New Deal will be a core part of our manifesto and our plan for growth, raising living standards for all. We’ll bring forward legislation within 100 days of taking office."

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Ah, I appear to have somehow missed crossbat11 ’s post before writing mine, and he had already made the point about economic insulation. The time issue is still something to consider maybe and there is also the point about media consumption, where oldies rely on mainstream media more, and hence the views of the Mail etc. can influence a tranche of them.

TV is dying too? From the Times “Alistair McGowan has said that impressions are a dying art form because young people no longer watch TV. The comedian, 58, believes that his “methodology doesn't really work for a modern audience” due to fewer people tuning into scheduled programming”

[Deleted]

Aug 18, 2023 10:01:11 GMT colin said:

Aug 18, 2023 0:14:29 GMT @isa said:

In the absence of such grim reality, I see some are filling this void by getting themselves into a right old lather about 'woke' issues, regularly fuelled by getting much of their 'news' from the Mail online feed, thereby constantly reinforcing this indignant thought process. I have seen this happening first hand of late and really was quite shocked.

My takeaway from this is that, for a relatively small demographic, probably less than c30% of the population, 'wokism'? is a very real issue,

Quite interested in the continuing evocation of the DM reader as regressive  angry old Tory voter-and indeed your projection from personal anecdote of  up to 20m such people.

So had a look at some stats.

DM print circulation is around 800k ( higher on Sats)-said to equate to around 2.5m readers.
Demographic is  54% female to 46% male. 83%  homeowners and 69% own their homes outright.Some 63% are ABC1 (upper and middle class).Average age of a reader is 56.

Mailonline has 4 million unique visits per day.( 37% in USA/35% in UK). Demograhic is 39% female to 61% male. 66% ABC1. 27% 25-34 years old; 18% 35-44 years old; 17% 18-24 years old; 15% 45-54 years old; 13% 55-64 years old ; 10% over 65 years old.
Mailonline users' "top topics" are News & Shopping.Other websites visited are :guardian.com/wikipedia.org/
bbc.com /mirror.co.uk /thesun.co.uk .Highest Social Media distribution is Facebook (30%) and Twitter ( 24%)

( sources a variety of media data sites)

So it looks like your " less than 30% of the population" is certainly correct-by some margin.

Not sure about them being old-certainly not the online users.

With regard to "wokeism" a 2022 YouGov Poll indicated that 43% of the population had heard this term being used, but were not sure or had no idea what it means , or had never heard it being used. Of those who understood what it means ( 57%), when asked "Do you ever use the term 'woke' to describe a set of beliefs, or people with a set of beliefs? "only 29% said Yes (17% of the population) 

Of those who understood what "woke" means, 24% thought it was " a good thing" and 41% " a bad thing"

So it certainly looks like a small proportion of the population are in a " right old lather " about woke issues.:-
From the above maybe 41% X 17% =7% ?

Sorry for getting you into a right old lather in terms of needing to debunk my caveated anecdotal musings. I hope you feel better now.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Aug 18, 2023 10:19:03 GMT wb61 said:

Aug 18, 2023 10:00:10 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

As others have noted, an issue with inflated property prices and better pensions, is that more oldies may be relatively insulated from the economy, and therefore don’t need to take the welfare of those of working age into account as a priority and therefore can pursue other things. A related issue, is that you now have rather more of these people who have a lot more time to pursue their agendas, whereas younger people are busy trying to make ends meet. 

It is even harder for younger people, busy working and raising families, to have much time to follow politics these days, especially now that it is more the case thst both parents have to work, and may hold down more than one job to make ends meet, or juggling loads of zero hours et cetera. 

So it isn’t just the numbers of the elderly that are an issue, but their economic insulation, and the amount of time that they have, which may skew things.

What I find difficult to understand with this analysis (although I do not necessarily disagree with it as a conclusion) is why observation of the difficulties of their offspring or grandchildren would not impact on this outlook. Certainly in my own case I am very worried about the future stability in my children's finances, particularly as they have migrated towards London and the South East for work, given the volatility of renting that they face and that property purchase is beyond their reach completely at present.

It’s an important point, and I posted in the past about polling that bore perhaps at least some relation to the issue. The polling concerned how boomers were planning to spend their windfall gains. The polling indicated the majority of boomers were looking to spend it on themselves, while their younger offspring were expecting to see more of it. 

I at times wonder whether the post-war unearned largesse heaped on boomers was such a good thing as it may have resulted in elevated entitlement at expense of others?

[Mark]

Aug 17, 2023 23:19:44 GMT eor said:

Slightly techie question - is there an easy way for Youtube links posted on here to automatically include some kind of thumbnail or strapline so we have some indication of who the content provider is before clicking?

Not asking anyone to go to any hassle, but given that Youtube channels earn money per view, and that once clicked onto Google will register the channel as something I'm interested in and use it to influence ads and content recommendations, it would be nice to have some basic sight of who it is we're being invited to endorse and fund when people post Youtube links.

Sadly, there is no function on Proboards for this that I'm aware of.

Re-the effects of clicking on something you don't like, firstly, I would always recommend using an ad-blocker.

That, however, will only affect things your end.

You would still be adding to the views at Youtube's end. While not practical from here, in general, if you want to visit a website and limit their visitor tally, go through one of the bigger proxy sites.

This is the same principle as the now defunct 'do not link' site worked under - rather than registering you as a unique visitor, the site will register the same IP as everyone else who used the same proxy.

I find proxysite.com/ very good.