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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 17, 2023 8:35:49 GMT
A more general point about the most recent Scottish polls. How disappointing must it be, I wonder, for those pursuing independence for their polity, to see a majority of Scots still opposed to it.
I would have thought that Brexit and an increasingly reviled Tory government in Westminster would have created an almost perfect storm of propitious political circumstances for the Scottish independence cause. Add in the alleged insipid Tory-lite Starmer led Labour Party alternative on offer, and you'd think both the SNP as a party, and pro-independence sentiment would be surging in the polity.
The fact that they clearly aren't must be worrying, I would think, for those yearning for another referendum.
The SNP is in some political retreat and support for independence appears to be waning/stalling. All this occurring too in a post Brexit world with an unpopular Tory government and, so we're told, a useless Labour opposition offering no alternative to Toryism.
What's going on up there?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2023 8:38:18 GMT
Lakeland Lass In essence the barriers facing Scottish entrance to the European union are the same as for the U.K. It's obviously beneficial to have a government that wants to rejoin and to have a history of not voting to leave in the first place ,but the process itself is no different. If we had a UK government or opposition not wedded to the stupidity of a one off vote 7 years ago regretted by many who voted to leave and with a demographic change which on its own secures a UK wide majority wishing to rejoin there wouldn't be an issue with the UK applying to rejoin.The rejoining negotiations are no different. What those of us who want to rejoin should be endeavouring to do is convincing the leadership of progressive UK parties to all back the rejoin cause. It's better to rejoin together. If things were different then they would indeed be different ... but they're not! |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 17, 2023 8:55:57 GMT
Lakeland LassThings change, public opinion already has, if Scotland wished to succeed it would take years to complete the process and application to join couldn't commence until completed. There's nothing inherently quicker about the process. If for example the Scottish government is run by Labour after the next Scottish parliamentary elections it's an irrelevancy anyway it's rejoin together or not at all.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 17, 2023 8:59:57 GMT
So the regime insisted on a return to pre covid examination focused grading at A levels.
Surprise surprise the students taking the exams , most their first closed exams after the debacle of covid school shutdowns and who have missed large chunks of their education and grades fell, congratulations to the students for doing about as well as the 2019 cohort in very difficult circumstances.
Let's shaft some more young people.
It's the Tory way.
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Post by wb61 on Aug 17, 2023 9:02:20 GMT
A lot has changed in Wales since 1997. We even have mains electricity now. It's even been a good few years since I've had to habitually leave my mobile phone perched on the front window sill of my parents' house in case anyone should try to contact me whilst I'm there. Your parents obviously live in the West of Swansea, you should come to Llansamlet where signal moves from the very strong to the non-existent depending on which room of the house you are in! |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 17, 2023 9:10:54 GMT
It's nhs week so the regime swoops into action.
"Government confirms plan to scrap two-week cancer wait targets in England – UK politics live"
If there's no target you can't miss it.
Job done
Next!
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 17, 2023 9:28:59 GMT
It isn't and I'm not. You still feel this need to categorise everyone as a nationalist of some type, when some of us are not interested in dividing up humanity in that fashion. The BBC's "Moral Maze" had a debate on this a month or so ago and provided some useful alternative language. They called those who see the essential unity of the human race "universalists" and those who value borders and see the peoples within those borders as separate from those outside due to history, culture, politics, etc. as "localists". So you are a Scottish localist, Mercian is (I assume) a UK localist and so on. I am a universalist and have very little interest in the arguments between the various forms of localist over the best place to draw their borders, although I can see it matters a great deal to a lot of people. Where that does take me - which obviously you don't agree with - is that I don't see drawing a new border by Scotland becoming independent of the UK will do much to solve Scotland's problems, which like everyone else's are international and global in nature - climate change, disease, predatory multi-national corporations, international finance capitalism, etc.. In the same way, the folly of the UK localists extracting the UK from the EU has just made things worse. A much better idea would be for the whole of the UK to be absorbed into the sort of European super-state the UK localists so fear, as a first step in the transition to a single world government, which would be the ideal. The reality of the situation is that only by creating a new border between England and Scotland, will Scotland then be able to remove the borders that have been erected between Scotland and 27 EU countries. Whether you would like it or not, the UK is not going to join a European super-state, so by definition, in the real world, support for Scottish independence is in fact the more "universalist" position. As I have said many times, I have no problem with that as a political point - I fully see the case for a second Independence vote given the UK withdrawal from the EU and if the Scots electorate vote to leave, then so be it. However, erecting a new border will, like all borders, make us all poorer. This from the House of Lords library: "The rest of the UK remains Scotland's most important trading partner. Data from the Scottish Government showed that in 2020, 62% of Scotland's exports went to the rest of the UK and the remaining 38% to other countries. 67% of Scotland's imports originated from the rest of the UK and 33% from other countries." An independent Scotland within the EU will have to follow EU rules, so cross-border trade with the remnant UK will be impacted in both directions. Of course the original fault for this lies with the UK localists for taking us out of the EU. |
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Post by athena on Aug 17, 2023 9:34:42 GMT
... some of us are more nuanced in our views. We feel that as a general point within the UK there is more that unites us than divides us. For instance in relation to political/cultural values I feel closer to my cockney partner and her family than to my first cousins who I grew up with are Welsh first language independence supporters... [] Nevertheless one can still be concerned that the wider current political arrangement is loaded against the smaller polity you still strongly identify with at times and sometimes you feel ignored and patronised by the current political setup. Imo proper devolution or federalism is the way to go to deal with those issues. I know these two structures are fundamentally different from each other and I would prefer the permanence of federalism if pinned to make a choice. Federalism seems to cater for the nuances of regional interests while allowing areas such as defence and foreign policy to be decided at the widest polity level. Oldnat tends to write as if Scotland were a homogeneous political entity and different from another homogeneous political entity, England, although in the post you quote he does acknowledge English heterogeneity. When he is generalising about Scotland's political complexion he chooses to ignore that the Scottish Borders is quite rural Tory in outlook and the islands aren't necessarily much happier with rule from Edinburgh than rule from Westminster. I'm always bit mystified by his assumption that Scotland is somehow a natural political unit. I tend to see these boundaries as somewhat arbitrary, matters of historical accident. The overlap between cultural and political identity can be unhelpful, in that the boundaries that make sense politically don't align well with people's cultural identities. The interesting thing is that we have a lot of different sets of boundaries for different purposes (the ONS even has a diagram) and some of the widely recognised cultural regional identities are based on administrative boundaries that have long ceased to exist. Boundaries shift and change purpose over time - including the border between the northern and southern bits of Britain (Hadrian's wall, Antonine wall). England seems to make reasonable sense as cultural unit, judging by how many people feel 'English', but it really doesn't as a political unit. Oldnat's favourite trope is that 'England keeps electing Tory govts', which always makes my hackles rise, because the regions where I've lived most of my life don't. This is one of the reasons I favour a British or UK federation in which English regions become 'states' alongside Wales and Scotland. Abolishing England as a political unit wouldn't stop people identifying as English and need not stop organisations with a national scope using 'England' as an administrative category - some probably would, some might decide that other groupings make more sense. My own preference for a British federation rather than an English federation is partly sentimental (I have close ties to Wales and Scotland and have lived in both), but mainly to do with social consent for redistribution. Redistribution works best over the largest area for which consent is obtainable. I think that for most purposes that's still the UK level (although the independence polling suggests that consent might be a bit shaky in Scotland). Consent for redistribution at European level is much more restricted. We'll probably all have different answers to the question of what powers work best at each level - European, British, region/state, locality. Oldnat would obviously like to get rid of the British level altogether and distribute those powers/sovereignty across the region/state and European levels. I'd rather keep some of them a bit lower down than European level, whilst wanting to hand a lot of the powers currently exercised by the Westminster government to 'state' governments. Brexiteers would presumably like them all lower than European level. |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Aug 17, 2023 9:36:04 GMT
The real question is why it is so important to you that the UK remains a state. Why should you be bothered one way or another?It isn't and I'm not. You still feel this need to categorise everyone as a nationalist of some type, when some of us are not interested in dividing up humanity in that fashion. The BBC's "Moral Maze" had a debate on this a month or so ago and provided some useful alternative language. They called those who see the essential unity of the human race "universalists" and those who value borders and see the peoples within those borders as separate from those outside due to history, culture, politics, etc. as "localists". So you are a Scottish localist, Mercian is (I assume) a UK localist and so on. I am a universalist and have very little interest in the arguments between the various forms of localist over the best place to draw their borders, although I can see it matters a great deal to a lot of people. Where that does take me - which obviously you don't agree with - is that I don't see drawing a new border by Scotland becoming independent of the UK will do much to solve Scotland's problems, which like everyone else's are international and global in nature - climate change, disease, predatory multi-national corporations, international finance capitalism, etc.. In the same way, the folly of the UK localists extracting the UK from the EU has just made things worse. A much better idea would be for the whole of the UK to be absorbed into the sort of European super-state the UK localists so fear, as a first step in the transition to a single world government, which would be the ideal. , this really does chime with me and reflects my own views on this subject. Personally, I have always found myself more drawn to / interested in international rather than local news, and had the strong feeling that people, where ever they are, have more in common than divides them. I am fully aware that is an idealistic position, and most people incline more to the localist approach. Historically, universalism has much more been a feature of the political left, but for practical political reason when they have found themselves in power have tended to adopt a localist position (eg USSR - 1920's shift to socialism in one country approach, Attlee govt after the war shifted from foreign policy centred around UNO to a more traditional approach to foreign policy).
In reality, I would hesitate to see this as a fundamentally binary division, rather that there is a spectrum of positions individuals can logically take (as Lakeland Lass has pointed out). One can't discount the pull and inherent influence of notions of identity linked to locality, traditions, history and ethnicity. I would also flag that when Graham put universalist principles above local ones when it came to supporting sports teams, most of the criticisms/challenge has come from posters on the left.
I don't think either of us would be in favour of an all powerful central global super state with the removal of all forms of local democracy / administration etc - and its very difficult to envisage a stable structure that does not involve some layer operating at the nation state level (as is the case with the EU). Practically, (despite significant evidence to the contrary from the past decade) I do think the current population of the UK is better off sticking together (eg will be able to negotiate better terms re-entering the EU etc and I think the econ impact of a split would be worse than Brexit). |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 17, 2023 9:56:35 GMT
athenaIt's also worth pointing out that in 97, 01 and 05 the last three times the UK didn't have a Tory or Tory led government England didn't vote by a majority for the Tories either. Reality check I think you have to go back to pre second world war to find any elections where the majority of those voting in England voted Tory. The closest recently was in 2019 when around 47% of the votes cast in England were tory that of course meant a majority of people in England as usual don't " keep on electing Tory governments " it's first past the post that elects them I appreciate oldnat's lack of interest in English politics but if he's going to comment on it it would be nice if he was accurate.
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 17, 2023 9:58:37 GMT
Oldnat tends to write as if Scotland were a homogeneous political entity and different from another homogeneous political entity, England, although in the post you quote he does acknowledge English heterogeneity. When he is generalising about Scotland's political complexion he chooses to ignore that the Scottish Borders is quite rural Tory in outlook and the islands aren't necessarily much happier with rule from Edinburgh than rule from Westminster. ... That has been pointed out many times. If Scotland ever voted to become independent* then what is to stop Scottish Borders or likes of Shetland deciding they wanted to choose their own 'future'. NE Scotland (economically the best bit**) might also decide it doesn't want to be part of the Utopian Scottish Socialist Republic so the USSR could end up as little more than Greater Glasgow and some of the really shite weather bits on the West where the SNATs might win a majority for 'Yes'. The relationship between the various parts of what is currently Scotland and rScotland and rGB/UK would up be up for negotiation but could be devolved entities (eg the rump parts continue as a devolved Scot.Govt that is part of UK with USSR as a totally separate country), Crown Dependencies, British Overseas Territories, or something specific. The real question is why it is so important to SNATs that Scotland remains a state if what is currently called Scotland became independent of UK? * Sturgeon's court case ensured we now have clarity that Westminster would first have to allow IndyRef2, although the rest of the process of Vote.Leave.UK would be for negotiation and I doubt vote Rejoin.EU could start until the Tartan Divorce was sorted out (eg there is no '2yr' clause in any Scottish Act, although as we saw with Brexit that 2yrs dragged out a lot longer than it should have) ** Edinburgh might currently be 'economically the best bit' but that is distorted by being the capital and a minor financial centre. To maintain its pension and life insurance sectors then Edinburgh might decide to stay part of UK's Single Market (or many of those companies might relocate to stay within UK). TBC but IMO the NE.Scotland would be 'economically the best bit' in the future given its 'hub' status for N.Sea O&G, wind farms and carbon storage. It would be certainly be a bit that England should want to keep where as Greater Glasgow - meh 😒 |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2023 10:03:33 GMT
A more general point about the most recent Scottish polls. How disappointing must it be, I wonder, for those pursuing independence for their polity, to see a majority of Scots still opposed to it. I would have thought that Brexit and an increasingly reviled Tory government in Westminster would have created an almost perfect storm of propitious political circumstances for the Scottish independence cause. Add in the alleged insipid Tory-lite Starmer led Labour Party alternative on offer, and you'd think both the SNP as a party, and pro-independence sentiment would be surging in the polity. The fact that they clearly aren't must be worrying, I would think, for those yearning for another referendum. The SNP is in some political retreat and support for independence appears to be waning/stalling. All this occurring too in a post Brexit world with an unpopular Tory government and, so we're told, a useless Labour opposition offering no alternative to Toryism. What's going on up there? They’re busy supporting the England Wimmin’s footy team. ⚽️  |
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Post by hireton on Aug 17, 2023 10:08:58 GMT
Lakeland LassIn essence the barriers facing Scottish entrance to the European union are the same as for the U.K. It's obviously beneficial to have a government that wants to rejoin and to have a history of not voting to leave in the first place ,but the process itself is no different. If we had a UK government or opposition not wedded to the stupidity of a one off vote 7 years ago regretted by many who voted to leave and with a demographic change which on its own secures a UK wide majority wishing to rejoin there wouldn't be an issue with the UK applying to rejoin. The rejoining negotiations are no different. What those of us who want to rejoin should be endeavouring to do is convincing the leadership of progressive UK parties to all back the rejoin cause. It's better to rejoin together. Not if England subsequently decided it wanted to leave again or the UK Government put England's interests above those of other countries of the UK. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 17, 2023 10:09:49 GMT
Real world consequences of the toddler traitor tantrums. So far multiple threats to kill and racist abuse from cult members and one cult member dead while planning to murder Biden and the New York state prosecutor. The traitor can't control himself he needs to be locked up for everyone's sake. youtu.be/WehjkvNzNZM |
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 17, 2023 10:10:31 GMT
Has anybody heard anything from Mercian yet?
I'm getting worried and the news from Oldbury is a little disturbing. Let's hope it's just a terrible coincidence.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2023 10:15:24 GMT
@lululemonmustdobetter
Graham’s position on footy wasn’t just anti-nation state, it was overtly political - but in a typically inept, politically charged and broad-brush manner. Supporting your own family members, village, town, city, footy team (etc) or country seems a perfectly natural, human thing to do to me when approaching sport. It’s naturally competitive and it’s natural to take a side - but allows us to do so in a “sporting” way.
And it actually allows the less blinkered of us to admire the way other people and other countries approach such sports, how they play differently/better than us, present themselves and so on.
Paul
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 17, 2023 10:15:50 GMT
Michael Parkinson RIP.
The great days of BBC Saturday night television. The Generation Game, Kojak, Parkinson and Match of the Day. All drew vast audiences and ITV more or less packed in and went home for the night.
Parky was a great journalist too. Wrote for the Times for many years. Cricket lover and Yorkshireman to this core.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 17, 2023 10:20:30 GMT
The reality of the situation is that only by creating a new border between England and Scotland, will Scotland then be able to remove the borders that have been erected between Scotland and 27 EU countries. Whether you would like it or not, the UK is not going to join a European super-state, so by definition, in the real world, support for Scottish independence is in fact the more "universalist" position. Hmm. I could see the Uk joining a eurupean super state. There isnt one at the moment of course, but I could see it in the future. As things are however, there is a Euorpean union and the Uk would be very cmfortable as a member. I gather the majority of Uk citizens want to join it. So happily there is an easy solution. |
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Post by graham on Aug 17, 2023 10:23:09 GMT
I have never been a Corbynite! |
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Post by graham on Aug 17, 2023 10:27:43 GMT
It is unlikely to arise as the game takes place at lunchtime whereas the service begins at 6.30pm. Moreover, there is a rota of people who chair the meetings so there is a fair chance she will not be involved. No other chairman there would be at all likely to do something quite so inappropriate.The lady concerned is more than a little lacking in 'insight' others might desribe her as 'limited' - and I would be inclined to refrain from confronting her with such facts in full public view in front of the congregation. Oh the irony!  She is - as some would express it - more than a little academically challenged. I am unclear as to whether she might have 'special needs.' |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 17, 2023 10:29:28 GMT
It's nhs week so the regime swoops into action. "Government confirms plan to scrap two-week cancer wait targets in England – UK politics live" If there's no target you can't miss it. Job done Next! This changed seems to be supported by doctors and other interested parties. I suspect the point is that while obviously the sooner anyone gets treatment the better, if you impose specific targets the NHS must comply with, then it has to prioroitise these above other activity. And its entirely possible doctors with more patients than they can handle see other crucnh points in the system. I'm just guessing here, but if its the case you get seen within two weeks but then have to wait three months for any action, pushing your first appointment up to 2 weeks wait didnt actually help you. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Aug 17, 2023 10:31:33 GMT
A good "long read" from The Guardian www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/17/the-eurocentric-fallacy-the-myths-that-underpin-european-identityThe author, Hans Kundnani, has an Indian father, a Dutch mother, and lives in Britain. He makes the point that the reality of the EU is not so different from nationalism; it is just on a continental rather than a country scale and emphasises the whiteness of the vast majority of Europeans. Seen from this viewpoint, it is easy to see the direct parallels between the EU countries blocking refugees crossing the Mediterranean and our Tory Government doing the same for refugees crossing the Channel. In neither case is there a recognition of common humanity. The article itself is an edited extract from his new book "Eurowhiteness: Culture, Empire and Race in the European Project", published by Hurst. |
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Post by Danny on Aug 17, 2023 10:33:17 GMT
So the regime insisted on a return to pre covid examination focused grading at A levels. Surprise surprise the students taking the exams , most their first closed exams after the debacle of covid school shutdowns and who have missed large chunks of their education and grades fell, congratulations to the students for doing about as well as the 2019 cohort in very difficult circumstances. Let's shaft some more young people. It's the Tory way. Interesting program about costs of university accommodation yesterday. Since students are largely gunded now by loans, then what concerns them is how much the size of loan they are allowed has risen compared to costs. While accommodation has been busy getting more expensive, loan sizes have not been going up. Loans were introduced because politicians decided they could no longer afford to give students grants sufficient for them to live on while at university. But now they arent even willing to give them loans sufficient to cover their costs at university!! I expect thats because they know most of that money will never get repaid because graduates just will not earn enough. But isnt this insane? I caught another program which was interviewing two midwives. They also discussed the growth of the university course to medical jobs, one of them had trained on the job which no longer happens. Its another example where people in the past were taught by people doing the job already and were even paid while they learnt. Its akso a hidden cost of a medical career nowadays, that you have to pay to be educated for years instead of being paid to learn. Does no one notice how much this has reduced the labour force? Is it really a cost effective approach to medicine? |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Aug 17, 2023 10:44:02 GMT
@lululemonmustdobetter Graham’s position on footy wasn’t just anti-nation state, it was overtly political - but in a typically inept, politically charged and broad-brush manner. Supporting your own family members, village, town, city, footy team (etc) or country seems a perfectly natural, human thing to do to me when approaching sport. It’s naturally competitive and it’s natural to take a side - but allows us to do so in a “sporting” way. And it actually allows the less blinkered of us to admire the way other people and other countries approach such sports, how they play differently/better than us, present themselves and so on. Paul @fecklessmiser, I wasn't intending to either defend the nature in which Graham made his point, nor criticise those who challenged him. I was attempting to illustrate the complexity of the topic and that its not completely binary, and as I said 'the pull and inherent influence of notions of identity linked to locality, traditions, history and ethnicity' is going to influence people.
I share many 'universalist' positions with our two most prolific adherents to the cause of Scottish Independence. I also cheer on certain sporting sides (Come On You Lionesses) based on locality or familial associations (Come On You Irons). Oh and while we are the subject of kickieball, isn't it now fair to say that relatively, English women are superior to English men? Can add that to the long list  . |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2023 10:46:21 GMT
"The lady concerned is more than a little lacking in 'insight'" Oh the irony! She is - as some would express it - more than a little academically challenged. I am unclear as to whether she might have 'special needs.' You certainly do. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2023 10:47:12 GMT
She is - as some would express it - more than a little academically challenged. I am unclear as to whether she might have 'special needs.' You certainly do. As do we all. |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 17, 2023 10:55:36 GMT
Just FWIW then YG's Eurotrack asks: "How likely, if at all, do you think it is that Britain will rejoin the EU at some point in the future?"
For GB: Likely: 27% Unlikely: 53% Net 26% 'Unlikely'docs.cdn.yougov.com/nd4x5y6foc/Topline_Eurotrack_Jul23_W.pdfI suppose it is possible that some people think 'Britain' will break up and only some bits will Rejoin (eg Count Binface used to want London to Rejoin before 'moving on' to a 'Carry on Moaning' stance*) but IMO that finding shows 'realism'. The French and Italians think chances of 'Britain' rejoining are even lower than Brits own views but Germans, Danes, Swedes and Spaniards think the chances are a bit higher. * Although a bit vague as 'S' could mean Success? See #4 www.countbinface.com |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2023 10:59:31 GMT
Michael Parkinson RIP. The great days of BBC Saturday night television. The Generation Game, Kojak, Parkinson and Match of the Day. All drew vast audiences and ITV more or less packed in and went home for the night. Parky was a great journalist too. Wrote for the Times for many years. Cricket lover and Yorkshireman to this core. Personally I think the hours of coverage on BBC news about Parkinson dying shows how inward looking and self obsessed the BBC are. I doubt many people under the age of 50 have even heard of him nor give a toss about whether he got attacked by an emu, indulged Mohammed Ali's abuse of Joe Frazier or objectified or bullied women guests. Completely over the top coverage about an 88 year old who used to do a chat show. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2023 11:02:02 GMT
Oh and while we are the subject of kickieball, isn't it now fair to say that relatively, English women are superior to English men? Can add that to the long list . I thought that was widely understood ever since they started allowing coursework to count towards exam marks. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2023 11:02:37 GMT
Ah the wonderful world of Universal Peace, Harmony, Love and Mutual Respect. Comrades all |
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