oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
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Post by oldnat on Aug 16, 2023 23:34:30 GMT
oldnat "Support for indy shows a small rise, but essentially remains static. Around half of the Scots electorate would prefer Scotland to be an independent state, and that is an unstable position for the UK" It would be equally or more unstable for an independent Scotland. Also I think you do your fellow contributors a disservice we aren't all country centric and I would want to see the best available U.K. wide government for all of the U.K.
Since you UKanian Nats frequently talk about the UK as "a country" - you are just as "country centric" as anyone else". "Of course, "country" is such a wide ranging, and meaningless term, as to be rather useless, outwith specific parameters.
I would hope that we would both want to see the best available European government for all Europe, and the best available governments in each member state - but it seems that your vision doesn't extend as far as mine.
Please elucidate why you consider that Scotland would be better represented in the EU by a Parliament in Westminster /Government in Downing St instead of a Parliament and government in Holyrood. If you can't, then please outline why you consider it is better for the UK that Scotland remains within it. |
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Post by eor on Aug 16, 2023 23:39:28 GMT
Well, emancipation of Catholics would lead to the electoral success of the Irish Parliamentary Party and pressure for Home Rule, and the failure to get that, led to Sinn Fein and independence, but of course Wellington was long dead by then and couldn't have foreseen the implications of what he did. Let's give the bloke some credit - whatever his motivations it was the right thing to do. Ah come on, wasn't he just saying it's interestingly nuanced that Wellington saw emancipating Catholics as the right thing to do (in the face of considerable conservative opposition concerned at what that representation would lead to) when he was at the same time regarded as an arch-conservative in other areas of electoral and social reform? |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
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Post by oldnat on Aug 16, 2023 23:40:06 GMT
As it's nearly midnight and Crofty's dropped me from the midnight shift, I thought I'd share a little anecdote that happened today. We needed some sort of cable connector because I'd mowed the cable of our mower. We went to B&Q together because I couldn't be trusted to get the right thing on my own. While going round, I confided to my wife that I always felt uncomfortable in these places because I know nothing about practical stuff, and that all the hefty blokes carrying sheets of plasterboard or mysterious tools to the checkout could spot that I was an imposter immediately - a bit like going into a country pub and immediately being recognised as a townie. Anyway, we found what was needed and went to the self-checkout. Instantly a shop assistant rushed over to show us how to use it. I looked at my wife and said "You see, they always know". ----------------- Anyway I wired it all up today and will attempt mowing tomorrow if it doesn't rain. If you don't hear from me again, the wiring didn't go too well. 😁 |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
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Post by oldnat on Aug 16, 2023 23:54:26 GMT
"Support for indy shows a small rise, but essentially remains static. Around half of the Scots electorate would prefer Scotland to be an independent state, and that is an unstable position for the UK" It would be equally or more unstable for an independent Scotland. Also I think you do your fellow contributors a disservice we aren't all country centric and I would want to see the best available U.K. wide government for all of the U.K. I'm afraid steve, that in oldnat's world wanting the best UK government makes you an extreme Ukanian nationalist. You should probably resign from the Lib Dems immediately and join RefUK 
Some of what the majority there want will match what others in rUK want - just as what those in other polities outwith UK want. Much of the other things they want may be unsuitable for the non-English polities (and much of England itself!) but your stance demands that your needs are thge priority, whether they are suitable elsewhere or not.
I don't consider that either you or steve are "extreme Ukanian nationalists", just normal UK nationalists who prioritise your own interests, and can achieve them when you are the majority, regardless of whether your choices suit others in the UK.
The real question is why it is so important to you that the UK remains a state. Why should you be bothered one way or another? |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
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Post by oldnat on Aug 17, 2023 0:10:05 GMT
I'm happy to give Wellington credit for accepting that denying Catholics the franchise wasn't wise, but it's a little imaginative to suggest that if Catholic Emancipation hadn't happened, then Ireland would be a contented component of a UK state! Ah come on, wasn't he just saying it's interestingly nuanced that Wellington saw emancipating Catholics as the right thing to do (in the face of considerable conservative opposition concerned at what that representation would lead to) when he was at the same time regarded as an arch-conservative in other areas of electoral and social reform?
The suggestion that Wellington was a driver of Emancipation is nonsense. Every vote in HoC since 1807 had been in favour of Catholic Emancipation in England and the other parts of the UK. The resistance came from the King and the HoL. Wellington and Peel finally urged the King to accede to emancipation due to the threat of civil war in part of the UK. |
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Post by eor on Aug 17, 2023 0:28:03 GMT
Ah come on, wasn't he just saying it's interestingly nuanced that Wellington saw emancipating Catholics as the right thing to do (in the face of considerable conservative opposition concerned at what that representation would lead to) when he was at the same time regarded as an arch-conservative in other areas of electoral and social reform? He said "Wellington's own views about Ireland seem to have been rather complex, but he was certainly a Unionist, although also the prime minister who enfranchised Catholics." Given that that position was offered in contrast to other more fixed views, I don't think calling it "interestingly nuanced" is a stretch at all. The same Wellington who in the face of civil unrest in other parts of the UK declared perfect confidence in the existing parliament, rotten boroughs and all? PJW didn't suggest he was a "driver of emancipation" just that it's worthy of acknowledging that he did as you note push it through against the opposition of the King (and the Lords). And I added that doing that, whilst remaining in obdurate resistance to change on other fronts, is interesting. |
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Post by moby on Aug 17, 2023 4:23:48 GMT
As it's nearly midnight and Crofty's dropped me from the midnight shift, I thought I'd share a little anecdote that happened today. We needed some sort of cable connector because I'd mowed the cable of our mower. We went to B&Q together because I couldn't be trusted to get the right thing on my own. While going round, I confided to my wife that I always felt uncomfortable in these places because I know nothing about practical stuff, and that all the hefty blokes carrying sheets of plasterboard or mysterious tools to the checkout could spot that I was an imposter immediately - a bit like going into a country pub and immediately being recognised as a townie. Anyway, we found what was needed and went to the self-checkout. Instantly a shop assistant rushed over to show us how to use it. I looked at my wife and said "You see, they always know". ----------------- Anyway I wired it all up today and will attempt mowing tomorrow if it doesn't rain. If you don't hear from me again, the wiring didn't go too well. 😁 I just don't believe this anecdote. You seriously expect me to believe you saw an assistant in B&Q and what's more they 'rushed over' to help you....nah didn't happen....not at B&Q. |
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Post by moby on Aug 17, 2023 5:26:02 GMT
I'm afraid steve, that in oldnat's world wanting the best UK government makes you an extreme Ukanian nationalist. You should probably resign from the Lib Dems immediately and join RefUK
Some of what the majority there want will match what others in rUK want - just as what those in other polities outwith UK want. Much of the other things they want may be unsuitable for the non-English polities (and much of England itself!) but your stance demands that your needs are thge priority, whether they are suitable elsewhere or not.
I don't consider that either you or steve are "extreme Ukanian nationalists", just normal UK nationalists who prioritise your own interests, and can achieve them when you are the majority, regardless of whether your choices suit others in the UK.
The real question is why it is so important to you that the UK remains a state. Why should you be bothered one way or another?Actually some of us are more nuanced in our views. We feel that as a general point within the UK there is more that unites us than divides us. For instance in relation to political/cultural values I feel closer to my cockney partner and her family than to my first cousins who I grew up with are Welsh first language independence supporters. I recently attended a family funeral in a Welsh chapel I went to as a child and felt like an alien. I didn't at all feel part of the ceremony, partly because it was conducted all in Welsh, (which I now only have a small grasp of) and I seriously think my side of the family is also viewed with suspicion as the ones who stopped going to the chapel and went their own way by not sending the kids to the local Welsh school? Perhaps that was paranoia but the point is I didn't feel part of what was happening culturally. Nevertheless one can still be concerned that the wider current political arrangement is loaded against the smaller polity you still strongly identify with at times and sometimes you feel ignored and patronised by the current political setup. Imo proper devolution or federalism is the way to go to deal with those issues. I know these two structures are fundamentally different from each other and I would prefer the permanence of federalism if pinned to make a choice. Federalism seems to cater for the nuances of regional interests while allowing areas such as defence and foreign policy to be decided at the widest polity level. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 17, 2023 5:36:14 GMT
oldnatIn the same way as I thought it unwise to leave the European union I think it's unwise to further dissect the UK into smaller independent nations. Personally I would prefer to see no nation states at all, I certainly don't want to see more and smaller ones. I am one of the least U.K. centric people I know,I certainly don't have a problem understanding the difference between Scotland and England as all of my mother's family were either Scots by birth or adopted the country as their home,. please don't assign beliefs to others based on your own mindset. I think we've had this conversation before I'm slightly surprised you chose to deploy that particular line with me.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,692
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 17, 2023 5:45:12 GMT
ChatGPT holds ‘systemic’ left-wing bias, researchers say
Findings come amid heightened regulatory scrutiny of generative AI models
“ChatGPT has been accused of a “systematic” left-wing bias that reflects the positions of Labour and US Democrat politicians, raising concerns over its use in policymaking and education.
Researchers found that the chatbot’s responses generally favour left-leaning political beliefs, despite efforts to reduce bias.
The study, led by academics at the University of East Anglia (UEA), claims to be the first large-scale research into ChatGPT’s political slant.
Companies and governments around the world are racing to develop large language models (LLMs) with similar technology to the OpenAI-made chatbot.
“ChatGPT presents a significant and systematic political bias toward the Democrats in the US, Lula in Brazil, and the Labour Party in the UK,” the UEA study’s authors wrote.
“These results translate into real concerns that ChatGPT, and LLMs in general, can extend or even amplify the existing challenges involving political processes posed by the internet and social media.”
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”Academics found a strong correlation between answers provided by ChatGPT’s default settings and answers in which the chatbot was told to impersonate a Labour supporter, a Democrat supporter, or a supporter of Brazil’s left-wing president Lula da Silva.
In contrast, there was a negative relationship between the chatbot and its default answers when it was instructed to impersonate a Conservative, a Republican or a supporter of former Brazilian president Jair Bolsonaro.”
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,692
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 17, 2023 5:49:34 GMT
“The study, published in the journal Public Choice, asked ChatGPT a series of questions from the Political Compass, a widely-used test of a person’s political leanings.
The questions ask users if they agree with statements such as “I’d always support my country, whether it was right or wrong,” or “The rich are too highly taxed” on a scale from “strongly agree” to “strongly disagree”.
The authors asked the questions to ChatGPT’s default setting, and then repeated the questions while asking the AI to impersonate an average Democrat or Republican. They repeated each question 1,000 times to ensure consistent results.”
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“The UEA study comes after recent research from US and Chinese academics concluded that ChatGPT was the most left-leaning out of 14 different artificial intelligence (AI) chatbots put through similar political bias tests.”
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Danny
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Posts: 10,352
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Post by Danny on Aug 17, 2023 6:24:29 GMT
BBC News waxing lyrical re the 1.1% drop in inflation, Sky News less so. What neither have mentioned is the fact that if you were paying £100 in July 21 for a package of goods, then the average cost now will be £117.58 (if my maths are correct). How many people have had a 17.5% increase in income over the past 2 years. Certainly not the nurses, doctors or teachers and I suspect the majority of people outside the financial institutions or other high flying jobs. Yes, a reduction in inflation is good news, but the news organisations should be making clear that people are still a lot worse off - the government won't admit it. Many people don't really understand inflation, believing that if it is decreasing, then prices will reduce rather than rising more slowly. I have even heard TV commentators and MPs not appreciating this. Therefore this needs to be made clear to the man/woman in the street. Yes, radio had someone making this mistake this morning, if it was a mistake. Talked about the cost of living coming down, when very obviously its still shooting up. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 17, 2023 6:32:05 GMT
Alas not. 64% of Americans polled said they would definitely or probably not vote for him, but the poll was All Adults, so historically about 40% of them aren't going to vote for anyone at all. It just doesn't translate into VI, as the nearly 20% who definitely or probably aren't going to vote for either Trump or Biden shows. Dont know about the US, but in the UK pollsters grossly under poll non voters. So far more of the 'all adults' they are asking will be voters than should be and its likely really a poll of 'all adult who will vote'. It makes sense not to bother polling non voters because they never influence the result of the election. Then the ideal scenario for republicans might be for Trump to continue but be forced to withdraw late, only after Biden has already secured the democrat nomination? If what you say is true, then could the republicans have a cunning plan? So long as the republican party hasnt thrown Trump out it could still benefit from voter sentiment supporting him even if he is no longer the candidate? |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,569
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 17, 2023 6:38:15 GMT
Well, emancipation of Catholics would lead to the electoral success of the Irish Parliamentary Party and pressure for Home Rule, and the failure to get that, led to Sinn Fein and independence, but of course Wellington was long dead by then and couldn't have foreseen the implications of what he did. Let's give the bloke some credit - whatever his motivations it was the right thing to do. Obviously true, which is why nowhere did I suggest that. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 17, 2023 6:41:14 GMT
The minimum wage has gone up 17% in that time. It'll be the people who are enough above NMW that their pay doesn't get affected by it spiking who are getting the rough end, but there'll be many millions benefiting from the NMW increases, either directly or because of knock-on effects, the need to maintain differentials between people and their supervisors etc. So in wage terms at least it's not as simple as the rich doing well and the poorest getting screwed. Except that the NMW was increased because it was accepted as being way too low to be a living wage, and even after the increase was still so considered. This period of inflation has however wiped out that increase which should have been a catching up. It does however illustrate part of our problem now is because low end wages have been too low for a long time. Therefore much less willingness to absorb losses of spending power right now. The government spend ten years setting up conditions for a stonking crisis right now. Perhaps they still had in mind the joke note left at the treasury by labour, wanting to make certain that when they lose this time, it really will be true there is no money left. Taking the long view, the Thatcher period of con administration also asset stripped the state. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 17, 2023 6:45:27 GMT
If he had said that it was "interestingly nuanced" I might not have bothered to comment, but pjw1961 seems to lack nuance in these matters. He said "Wellington's own views about Ireland seem to have been rather complex, but he was certainly a Unionist, although also the prime minister who enfranchised Catholics." Given that that position was offered in contrast to other more fixed views, I don't think calling it "interestingly nuanced" is a stretch at all. The same Wellington who in the face of civil unrest in other parts of the UK declared perfect confidence in the existing parliament, rotten boroughs and all? PJW didn't suggest he was a "driver of emancipation" just that it's worthy of acknowledging that he did as you note push it through against the opposition of the King (and the Lords). And I added that doing that, whilst remaining in obdurate resistance to change on other fronts, is interesting. Thanks - its nice someone actually reads my posts as written, rather trying to spin them. Appreciated. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 17, 2023 6:55:26 GMT
please outline why you consider it is better for the UK that Scotland remains within it. Easy, all that money from the oil! And when thats gone the latest plan seems to be to cover it in wind turbines to power england. |
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Danny
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Posts: 10,352
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Post by Danny on Aug 17, 2023 7:01:56 GMT
ChatGPT holds ‘systemic’ left-wing bias, researchers sayFindings come amid heightened regulatory scrutiny of generative AI models “ ChatGPT has been accused of a “systematic” left-wing bias that reflects the positions of Labour and US Democrat politicians, raising concerns over its use in policymaking and education.
Researchers found that the chatbot’s responses generally favour left-leaning political beliefs, despite efforts to reduce bias.
The study, led by academics at the University of East Anglia (UEA), claims to be the first large-scale research into ChatGPT’s political slant.
Companies and governments around the world are racing to develop large language models (LLMs) with similar technology to the OpenAI-made chatbot.
“ChatGPT presents a significant and systematic political bias toward the Democrats in the US, Lula in Brazil, and the Labour Party in the UK,” the UEA study’s authors wrote.
“These results translate into real concerns that ChatGPT, and LLMs in general, can extend or even amplify the existing challenges involving political processes posed by the internet and social media.” I wonder if that is because it was fed a random selection of source material, and the overall bias of that material is what would be considered left wing. In other words, that politicians around the world tend to be more right wing than their populations? |
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Mr Poppy
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Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
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Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 17, 2023 7:02:29 GMT
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,569
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 17, 2023 7:07:55 GMT
I'm afraid steve, that in oldnat's world wanting the best UK government makes you an extreme Ukanian nationalist. You should probably resign from the Lib Dems immediately and join RefUK
The real question is why it is so important to you that the UK remains a state. Why should you be bothered one way or another?It isn't and I'm not. You still feel this need to categorise everyone as a nationalist of some type, when some of us are not interested in dividing up humanity in that fashion. The BBC's "Moral Maze" had a debate on this a month or so ago and provided some useful alternative language. They called those who see the essential unity of the human race "universalists" and those who value borders and see the peoples within those borders as separate from those outside due to history, culture, politics, etc. as "localists". So you are a Scottish localist, Mercian is (I assume) a UK localist and so on. I am a universalist and have very little interest in the arguments between the various forms of localist over the best place to draw their borders, although I can see it matters a great deal to a lot of people. Where that does take me - which obviously you don't agree with - is that I don't see drawing a new border by Scotland becoming independent of the UK will do much to solve Scotland's problems, which like everyone else's are international and global in nature - climate change, disease, predatory multi-national corporations, international finance capitalism, etc.. In the same way, the folly of the UK localists extracting the UK from the EU has just made things worse. A much better idea would be for the whole of the UK to be absorbed into the sort of European super-state the UK localists so fear, as a first step in the transition to a single world government, which would be the ideal. |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,569
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 17, 2023 7:13:21 GMT
ChatGPT holds ‘systemic’ left-wing bias, researchers sayFindings come amid heightened regulatory scrutiny of generative AI models “ ChatGPT has been accused of a “systematic” left-wing bias that reflects the positions of Labour and US Democrat politicians, raising concerns over its use in policymaking and education.
Researchers found that the chatbot’s responses generally favour left-leaning political beliefs, despite efforts to reduce bias.
The study, led by academics at the University of East Anglia (UEA), claims to be the first large-scale research into ChatGPT’s political slant.
Companies and governments around the world are racing to develop large language models (LLMs) with similar technology to the OpenAI-made chatbot.
“ChatGPT presents a significant and systematic political bias toward the Democrats in the US, Lula in Brazil, and the Labour Party in the UK,” the UEA study’s authors wrote.
“These results translate into real concerns that ChatGPT, and LLMs in general, can extend or even amplify the existing challenges involving political processes posed by the internet and social media.”
…
”Academics found a strong correlation between answers provided by ChatGPT’s default settings and answers in which the chatbot was told to impersonate a Labour supporter, a Democrat supporter, or a supporter of Brazil’s left-wing president Lula da Silva.
In contrast, there was a negative relationship between the chatbot and its default answers when it was instructed to impersonate a Conservative, a Republican or a supporter of former Brazilian president Jair Bolsonaro.”
That will be due to the 'I' in Artificial Intelligence. They would need AS (Artificial Stupidity) for the MAGA crowd. |
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Post by barbara on Aug 17, 2023 7:14:00 GMT
God knows what he will say to the poor lady in his church if the Lionesses win and she mentions it!! It is unlikely to arise as the game takes place at lunchtime whereas the service begins at 6.30pm. Moreover, there is a rota of people who chair the meetings so there is a fair chance she will not be involved. No other chairman there would be at all likely to do something quite so inappropriate.The lady concerned is more than a little lacking in 'insight' others might desribe her as 'limited' - and I would be inclined to refrain from confronting her with such facts in full public view in front of the congregation. Oh the irony!  |
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Post by johntel on Aug 17, 2023 7:24:18 GMT
ChatGPT holds ‘systemic’ left-wing bias, researchers sayFindings come amid heightened regulatory scrutiny of generative AI models “ ChatGPT has been accused of a “systematic” left-wing bias that reflects the positions of Labour and US Democrat politicians, raising concerns over its use in policymaking and education.
Researchers found that the chatbot’s responses generally favour left-leaning political beliefs, despite efforts to reduce bias.
The study, led by academics at the University of East Anglia (UEA), claims to be the first large-scale research into ChatGPT’s political slant.
Companies and governments around the world are racing to develop large language models (LLMs) with similar technology to the OpenAI-made chatbot.
“ChatGPT presents a significant and systematic political bias toward the Democrats in the US, Lula in Brazil, and the Labour Party in the UK,” the UEA study’s authors wrote.
“These results translate into real concerns that ChatGPT, and LLMs in general, can extend or even amplify the existing challenges involving political processes posed by the internet and social media.” I wonder if that is because it was fed a random selection of source material, and the overall bias of that material is what would be considered left wing. In other words, that politicians around the world tend to be more right wing than their populations? It's more likely that the average age of people creating the internet content that ChatGPT uses as input is less than the average in the total population and the young tend to be more left wing. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Aug 17, 2023 7:29:15 GMT
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steve
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Posts: 12,624
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Post by steve on Aug 17, 2023 7:34:45 GMT
Interesting take on the toddler traitor by his niece Mary Trump. Mary Trump is no fan of the Traitor but she does know him well and she's a clinical psychologist. It's worth a watch. youtu.be/UnsJva2HPCA |
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 17, 2023 7:39:52 GMT
I have just seen a report that concerns me a little about the welfare of Mercian, especially since he has warned us already about the possible fatal consequences of his DIY lawn-mower re-wiring.
On the 8.00am Midlands Today news bulletin, they reported, as breaking news and "ongoing incident", that residents in a normally quite and peaceful road in Oldbury, had heard a loud explosion accompanied by a blue flash at the rear of one of the houses at approximately 7.40am this morning. They had been awoken shortly before the explosion by the unusually early sound of an electric lawn mower being started. They also said they had heard what sounded like a domestic disturbance, involving a man and a woman, just before the blue flash and bang was seen and heard. Apparently, and these reports are unconfirmed, the male voice in this loud argument was heard shouting, "I told you these B&Q tosspots didn't know anything about lawn mowers. It doesn't look right to me but.....". Then the explosion.
Emergency services are on the scene now and the house and surrounding area has been cordoned off. There are reports of extensive collateral damage and a widespread power cut in the Oldbury area.
Relatives and loved ones of people living in Empire Gardens, Oldbury are advised to ring the following number for further information.
666 666 666.
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 17, 2023 7:55:45 GMT
It was why I was perfectly happy to see Australia retain the Ashes. Words fail. If only they occasionally failed Graham too. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 17, 2023 7:58:48 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2023 8:12:55 GMT
The real question is why it is so important to you that the UK remains a state. Why should you be bothered one way or another?It isn't and I'm not. You still feel this need to categorise everyone as a nationalist of some type, when some of us are not interested in dividing up humanity in that fashion. The BBC's "Moral Maze" had a debate on this a month or so ago and provided some useful alternative language. They called those who see the essential unity of the human race "universalists" and those who value borders and see the peoples within those borders as separate from those outside due to history, culture, politics, etc. as "localists". So you are a Scottish localist, Mercian is (I assume) a UK localist and so on. I am a universalist and have very little interest in the arguments between the various forms of localist over the best place to draw their borders, although I can see it matters a great deal to a lot of people. Where that does take me - which obviously you don't agree with - is that I don't see drawing a new border by Scotland becoming independent of the UK will do much to solve Scotland's problems, which like everyone else's are international and global in nature - climate change, disease, predatory multi-national corporations, international finance capitalism, etc.. In the same way, the folly of the UK localists extracting the UK from the EU has just made things worse. A much better idea would be for the whole of the UK to be absorbed into the sort of European super-state the UK localists so fear, as a first step in the transition to a single world government, which would be the ideal. The reality of the situation is that only by creating a new border between England and Scotland, will Scotland then be able to remove the borders that have been erected between Scotland and 27 EU countries. Whether you would like it or not, the UK is not going to join a European super-state, so by definition, in the real world, support for Scottish independence is in fact the more "universalist" position. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 17, 2023 8:32:25 GMT
Lakeland LassIn essence the barriers facing Scottish entrance to the European union are the same as for the U.K. It's obviously beneficial to have a government that wants to rejoin and to have a history of not voting to leave in the first place ,but the process itself is no different. If we had a UK government or opposition not wedded to the stupidity of a one off vote 7 years ago regretted by many who voted to leave and with a demographic change which on its own secures a UK wide majority wishing to rejoin there wouldn't be an issue with the UK applying to rejoin. The rejoining negotiations are no different. What those of us who want to rejoin should be endeavouring to do is convincing the leadership of progressive UK parties to all back the rejoin cause. It's better to rejoin together.
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