16-JUL 2023 : LAB: 46% / CON: 26% / LDEM: 11% / REF: 6%

[neilj]

Jul 18, 2023 7:21:40 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Jul 18, 2023 7:15:16 GMT neilj said:

c-a-r-f-r-e-w
'That’s an ok list if you’re a Liberal'

Well I suppose that's an improvement to some thinking he was the heir to Thatcher

Thatcher thought so! It was interesting recently to see people talking about Tory leaders. There are quite a few on the right of Labour who seem quite ok with Thatcher, Cameron and Heath. Which isn’t such a surprise, being as they were economically quite Liberal, were pro-EU too, though Thatcher cooled near the end. There are quite a few who would prefer Thatcher to Foot and Corbyn and were ok with the SDP doing their bit to usher in Thatcherism. 

Could you give us a list of those on the right of Labour who said they were okay with Thatcher?

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Jul 18, 2023 7:23:38 GMT neilj said:

Jul 18, 2023 7:21:40 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Thatcher thought so! It was interesting recently to see people talking about Tory leaders. There are quite a few on the right of Labour who seem quite ok with Thatcher, Cameron and Heath. Which isn’t such a surprise, being as they were economically quite Liberal, were pro-EU too, though Thatcher cooled near the end. There are quite a few who would prefer Thatcher to Foot and Corbyn and were ok with the SDP doing their bit to usher in Thatcherism. 

Could you give us a list of those on the right of Labour who said they were okay with Thatcher?

I phrased that poorly. I was talking more generally, not about people on the board, it’s just that the people on the board had me thinking about it. Clearly Blair accepted a lot of Thatcherite economics. But some on the board did alarm some others a bit as to the lack of criticism of Thatcher. 

I asked them to compare Tory with Labour leaders but they declined. So, who would you prefer Neil? Foot or Heath? Cameron or Corbyn? 

[neilj]

c-a-r-f-r-e-w
'I asked them to compare with Labour leaders but they declined. So, who would you prefer Neil? Foot or Heath? Cameron or Corbyn?'

The Labour one's, I assume you would also go for Labour every time?

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Jul 18, 2023 7:35:23 GMT neilj said:

c-a-r-f-r-e-w
'I asked them to compare with Labour leaders but they declined. So, who would you prefer Neil? Foot or Heath? Cameron or Corbyn?'

The Labour one's, I assume you would also go for Labour every time?

As you may know, I don’t vote and I am not campaigning for how others should vote. I am just explaining why the left might have issues with the policies of the right of the party, that it isn’t necessarily purism, or necessarily irrational to risk letting the Tories in.

As it happens, as Tories keep failing and Labour’s polling lead is maintained, it becomes more and more tenable to rationally threaten to vote against Labour to pressure them into moving left, since if you think they will win anyway it’s not risking as much. 

Additionally, there is a related argument I have seen elsewhere to vote against Labour to try and secure a narrower victory so the left wing MPs have more say. (Which might be why Starmer is so keen to replace them!)

[steve]

c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Who declined?

If we're playing what ifs.

Neither Foot or Kinnock were facing Heath, I would have preferred Kinnock by a long way over Thatcher Foot, anti NATO pro USSR I would have preferred the Alliance over either Foot or Thatcher ( well I would wouldn't I)
I would have preferred Brown or Miliband over Cameron, I left the party partly over Corbyn being leader I would have much preferred a Labour government in 2015 under Ed Miliband so the Corbyn question wouldn't have arisen.

With the exception of 1983 when I voted for the Alliance because of Foot's position on defence I voted for Labour at every election from 1979 to 2015.
I always voted for Labour in the decade or so I was a member with enthusiasm.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Jul 18, 2023 7:43:00 GMT steve said:

c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Who declined?

If we're playing what ifs.

Neither Foot or Kinnock were facing Heath, I would have preferred Kinnock by a long way over Thatcher Foot, anti NATO pro USSR I would have preferred the Alliance over either Foot or Thatcher ( well I would wouldn't I)
I would have preferred Brown or Miliband over Cameron, I left the party partly over Corbyn being leader I would have much preferred a Labour government in 2015 under Ed Miliband so the Corbyn question wouldn't have arisen.

With the exception of 1983 when I voted for the Alliance because of Foot's position on defence I voted for Labour at every election from 1979 to 2015.
I always voted for Labour in the decade or so I was a member with enthusiasm.

well no one formally announced “I decline!”, they just didn’t bother to take up the suggestion, as is their right of course. Thanks for your views on it - What did you think of Heath? 

[pjw1961]

Jul 17, 2023 22:06:53 GMT steve said:

pjw1961
If the Labour party as anticipated wins a substantial majority based on around 40% of the vote the major hurdle to the introduction of proportional representation will of course be the Labour government.

I entirely agree - but will note it is the Labour leadership and a section of the MPs rather than the wider party, which has a majority in favour of PR. 

[Deleted]

On the Border Control front , EU concludes an agreement with Tunisia in yet another attempt to export its border controls :-


www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/16/tunisia-and-eu-finalise-deal-on-migration

Sir Humphry might have said "Very Brave Minister" to this one given the nature of man they are bunging loads of dosh to :-


www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/2/3/the-west-cannot-continue-to-support-tunisias-new-autocrat


Trying to arrange  Social Engineering in North Africa's Med Countries in order to stem unregulated migrant flows from Sub Saharan Africa is frought with difficulty.



On the domestic front I see that Cooper has no issue with the barge accomodation for illegals coming here.

No doubt another trigger for the tortuous , handwringing on the left  about whether it is decent and proper to vote Labour under Starmer .

[steve]

c-a-r-f-r-e-w
What did you think of Heath?

There would be no position for Heath in today's Tory party there have been significantly worse prime minister's, I was too young to vote then but I would probably have voted for Wilson in 1974, incidentally 74 shows the absurdity of fptp with around 35% of the vote both the Tories and Labour secured around 300 seats each while the liberals with around half the other two parties votes got 13.

[neilj]

c-a-r-f-r-e-w
"I am just explaining why the left might have issues with the policies of the right of the party, that it isn’t necessarily purism, or necessarily irrational to risk letting the Tories in"

True and for similar reasons many normally Labour voters wouldn't vote for Corbyn
They might have issues with the policies of the left of the party or Corbyn himself, that it isn’t necessarily purism, or necessarily irrational to risk letting the Tories in

My view is simple, Corbyn would have been better than May, Johnson Truss or Sunak. Similarly I think Starmer will be better than Sunak
I see the next election is a chance for voters to give an over whelming no to the tories and their culture war/Fundamentalist agenda

I want them to have such a shock that they have to rethink what they are as a party need to do to reconnect with the average voter. I am hoping they turn away from the likes of Braverman, it may not happen, but unless they get a very big shock it definitely won't happen

[steve]

colin
Spain Already has land borders with Morocco , Western Sahara and Algeria.
It wouldn't be a case of exporting European union borders to Africa as it already has some.

However it seems entirely sensible to cooperate with neighbouring countries to combat " irregular " migration and focus on safer routes in combination with greater economic links.

Brexitania should give it a try.

[pjw1961]

Jul 18, 2023 6:46:00 GMT mandolinist said:

crossbat11 . I have a feeling that the ming vase Starmer was so carefully carrying has already slipped and smashed. I don't understand how these policy announcements seem to be being made without any reference to any policy making process within the party. The keeping of the two child cap, the watering down of the green new deal, the announcement of the non-abolition of the anti-demonstration legislation.

Oh yes I will almost certainly hold my nose and vote Labour, but, I have resigned my membership and can no longer defend the policy shifts. If I lived in Bristol West I would be seriously considering voting Green, if I lived in Wales, like wb61 Plaid would be very tempting. I am trying to say in my roundabout and rather non-analytical way, that Labour need to find a backbone and commit to something concrete and stick to it or the softening of the support in the polls could become a real movement.

The think the re-phasing of the Green New Deal was inevitable. Of the £28bn, 8bn is in current government spending plans but the other £20bn was dependent on day 1 borrowing. I think if Labour had gone into the 2024 election with a commitment to borrow an extra £20bn a year regardless of the economic position they would have been ripped apart daily by the press and broadcast media, who would have asked about it endlessly (Conservative politicians tend to get a largely free ride on such things, Labour never). 

However, the 2 child policy is a massive error. Even right-wing Labour MPs are unhappy about it. I don't think the real driver here is economic - Starmer's team have looked at the opinion polls that show the 2 child limit is popular with voters (its the 'people shouldn't have children they can't afford' argument, which ignores the reality that the policy doesn't punish the parents but the blameless children) and decided to keep it for that reason. 

My fear is that Starmer has forgotten that to win he has to build a sufficiently large voting coalition, which means offering something to all parts of that coalition. There needs to be something for the socially conservative, economically left working class, something for middle class liberals and something for the 'across-the-board' leftists. Corbyn failed because he repelled significant parts of the first two groups. Starmer is doing well in attracting them, but needs to also offer something to the last group. If 'big ticket' spending pledges are out, then Labour could at least promise some of the low cost constitution reforms.

The National Policy Forum meets soon. It will be important what starts to emerge as the potential manifesto. 

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Jul 18, 2023 8:22:12 GMT neilj said:

c-a-r-f-r-e-w
"I am just explaining why the left might have issues with the policies of the right of the party, that it isn’t necessarily purism, or necessarily irrational to risk letting the Tories in"

True and for similar reasons many normally Labour voters wouldn't vote for Corbyn
They might have issues with the policies of the left of the party or Corbyn himself, that it isn’t necessarily purism, or necessarily irrational to risk letting the Tories in

Indeed I made a similar argument earlier. That resistance to Corbyn and risking letting in Tories could be rational if your politics sufficiently differs. What I found interesting was that quite a few complained about Corbyn originally regarding insufficient enthusiasm on EU, but this didn’t seem to change when he offered the second ref. (Indeed, Liberals taking over Labour might be rational even if it might be too cynical for my tastes). 

[steve]

colin
I recall recently a case where a number of asylum seekers travelled to the Canary islands from the mainland of Africa while clutching on to the rudder at the back of a container ship for days.

The response in the Canaries wasn't to call for their immediate deportation or scream about invaders it was how incredibly brave, if reckless they had been and that safer methods needed to be provided.

But then again Spain isn't run by a xenophobic isolationist regime.

[pete]

Jul 17, 2023 19:37:38 GMT graham said:

Jul 17, 2023 19:29:10 GMT @isa said:

I don't want to inflame tensions on here, (today of all days), but I'm struggling a little to see how Callaghan undermined the post-Thatcher consensus considering he was PM pre-Thatcher.

Ok - let me rephrase that . I say this as someone who utterly detests Johnson for other reasons, but in terms of economic policy he was the most left wing PM since Callaghan - as reflected in his willingness to increase state intervention and to allow Public Borrowing to rise when the national interest required it. If only Blair had done the same with his big majorities! Johnson was rather Heseltinian in his Industrial policy - despite their massive differences on Brexit etc.

Nonsense.
Johnson had no choice regarding furloughs or the economy would've crashed. The real Johnson was his 'levelling up agenda' where he did sod all as it was obvious  bull to con the red wall (along with his 'get brexit done' 'oven ready deal').

also, his group of Tory half-wits are the ones who  mostly wanted  to take away  as much workers rights  and protections as possible, whether from  union laws to free ports with no workers protections, same  with food protections etc. Fishy Rishi is just  following on from Johnson.
Johnson/Rishi, same old  Tories  always bullshitting and then denying. They've done the  same with he NHS, half destroy it and then say we can't afford it. If they hadn't fecked it over for 10 years (staff pay, keeping hospitals in good order) the NHS  would more than likely still be getting plaudits and satisfaction ratings it received in 2010.
The fact someone as smart as you fell for this bull is shocking.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Jul 18, 2023 8:22:12 GMT neilj said:

c-a-r-f-r-e-w
"I am just explaining why the left might have issues with the policies of the right of the party, that it isn’t necessarily purism, or necessarily irrational to risk letting the Tories in"

True and for similar reasons many normally Labour voters wouldn't vote for Corbyn
They might have issues with the policies of the left of the party or Corbyn himself, that it isn’t necessarily purism, or necessarily irrational to risk letting the Tories in

My view is simple, Corbyn would have been better than May, Johnson Truss or Sunak. Similarly I think Starmer will be better than Sunak
I see the next election is a chance for voters to give an over whelming no to the tories and their culture war/Fundamentalist agenda

I want them to have such a shock that they have to rethink what they are as a party need to do to reconnect with the average voter. I am hoping they turn away from the likes of Braverman, it may not happen, but unless they get a very big shock it definitely won't happen

I would hope Starmer would be better than Sunak. I am just explaining why one might still rationally have issues nonetheless. I haven’t made much criticism of Starmer, partly because of the chance he might do a reverse ferret and actually move left when in power. (I admit this might be a forlorn hope…)

p.s. I think you recently highlighted how Sunak hadn’t been doing very well on his pledges? Maybe we have got the wrong end of the stick though, and the game these days is to see how many you can break? It’s possible Sunak, in only having five pledges, is lacking ambition in this regard 

[steve]

neilj

"My view is simple, Corbyn would have been better than May, Johnson Truss or Sunak. Similarly I think Starmer will be better than Sunak"

I'm inclined to agree, very low bar of course.
But for various reasons I would never be a member of any political party who decided that Jeremy Corbyn was the best choice out of around 280 mps as leader when 279 of them would have been an improvement.
Starmer has given me no reason to rejoin, not being Jeremy Corbyn or Sunakered isn't enough.

[Deleted]

Jul 18, 2023 8:24:22 GMT steve said:

colin
Spain Already has land borders with Morocco , Western Sahara and Algeria.
It wouldn't be a case of exporting European union borders to Africa as it already has some.

However it seems entirely sensible to cooperate with neighbouring countries to combat " irregular " migration and focus on safer routes in combination with greater economic links.

Brexitania should give it a try.

I wrote "EU concludes an agreement with Tunisia in yet another attempt to export its border controls "


Rutte said:-


“It contains agreements on disrupting the business model of people smugglers and human traffickers, strengthening border control and improving registration and return. All essential measures for bolstering efforts to stop irregular migration,”

Yasmine Akrimi, a researcher at the Brussels International Center said :-

"The EU has been trying to achieve this deal for decades, with the idea of turning North African countries into a “disembark platform” for refugees and migrants.
Italy wants to consider Tunisia as what they call a safe third country – meaning that everyone who passes through Tunisia can eventually be relocated back to Tunisia,”


AJ reported :-
"As of Friday, the Italian interior ministry counted more than 75,000 migrants who had arrived by boat on the Italian coast since the beginning of the year compared to about 31,900 in the same period last year."

[pjw1961]

Jul 18, 2023 7:58:47 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Jul 18, 2023 7:43:00 GMT steve said:

c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Who declined?

well no one formally announced “I decline!”, they just didn’t bother to take up the suggestion, as is their right of course. Thanks for your views on it - What did you think of Heath? 

Here's a challenge back. Here's my ranking of every Conservative and Labour leader since Heath and Wilson in order of preference and I have put every Labour leader above every Tory. Would you do the same? 

Miliband (my politics), Callaghan (underrated),Smith (might have been very good given the chance), Brown (unlucky), Wilson (over-rated as a PM, good at winning elections), Blair (would have been higher but for Iraq), Kinnock, Corbyn, Starmer, Foot// Major, Hague, Heath, May, Cameron, Howard, Sunak, Thatcher, Duncan Smith, Johnson, Truss.

[pjw1961]

Jul 18, 2023 8:31:42 GMT steve said:

colin
I recall recently a case where a number of asylum seekers travelled to the Canary islands from the mainland of Africa while clutching on to the rudder at the back of a container ship for days.

The response in the Canaries wasn't to call for their immediate deportation or scream about invaders it was how incredibly brave, if reckless they had been and that safer methods needed to be provided.

But then again Spain isn't run by a xenophobic isolationist regime.

Not yet (see Spanish election for confirmation). 

[steve]

colin
Italy is of course run by a far right nationalist xenophobic regime , just like the U.K..

[steve]

pjw1961
It would be a great shame if VOX become a party of national government, but the election hasn't happened yet.
PP aren't by current tory standards far right or xenophobic.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Jul 18, 2023 8:42:03 GMT pjw1961 said:

Jul 18, 2023 7:58:47 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

well no one formally announced “I decline!”, they just didn’t bother to take up the suggestion, as is their right of course. Thanks for your views on it - What did you think of Heath? 

Here's a challenge back. Here's my ranking of every Conservative and Labour leader since Heath and Wilson in order of preference and I have put every Labour leader above every Tory. Would you do the same? 

Miliband (my politics), Callaghan (underrated),Smith (might have been very good given the chance), Brown (unlucky), Wilson (over-rated as a PM, good at winning elections), Blair (would have been higher but for Iraq), Kinnock, Corbyn, Starmer, Foot// Major, Hague, Heath, May, Cameron, Howard, Sunak, Thatcher, Duncan Smith, Johnson, Truss.

Thanks for your list PJ! I have started work on my own list. (Really not sure where you put Starmer. It could change again with his next u-turn…)

[shevii]

Jul 18, 2023 5:23:48 GMT crossbat11 said:

Based, in my view, far too much on mistaking electoral positioning for an inviolable prescription for governing.

Most people would accept that Labour can't do everything, but I think it goes beyond electoral positioning and not scaring Tory horses when Labour positions themselves as "there's no money left" and there's nothing we can do until we grow the economy. That's a Thatcherite positioning of there is no alternative. It's not even Blair's third way.

While you could argue that Blair was justified in largely keeping to Tory tax plans in 1997, because that was where the country was at the time, there seems little justification for it now.  5% on top earners has been dropped, CGT equalised with Income Tax has been dropped.  Other taxation plans, including on Corporation Tax, have been dropped.

So what Labour has bought into is that you cannot grow an economy by raising taxes and it can only be done by "growth" but without any agenda to achieve a growth that, on a planet with finite resources, has eluded most of the western world for the last 15 years.  You can grow an economy with tax rises that are used for investment but Labour appears to have blocked this off in their positioning so are reliant on any post Covid and Ukraine bounce back.  I think the 2008 crash, Covid and Ukraine were significant economic events that could be seen as unusual, but they are also a symptom that world economies are so unstable they are no longer able to recover quickly from these type of events and this is largely down to the super rich hoarding too much of the wealth and Westerm worlds unable to be competitive with cheaper labour in the Far East and elsewhere.  With the climate emergency now in full swing tweaking a Thatcherite solution which has been proved to have failed is not going to fix things one little bit.

You say anything is better than the Tories, I would say lets get the meaningful alternatives up and running now rather than wasting 5 years with a softer version of the same.  Some well positioned 2nd places for the Greens starting to appear and offering an alternative would, in my humble opinion, be more worthwhile than shifting chairs on the Titanic.  In some ways I'm arguing against something I've known to be true all my life that there are only two alternatives to government- Tory or Labour, but when I look at how the western world and the country is now, it feels like last days of the Roman empire that needs a radical reset.  Ironically Greens getting 7% vote share and a couple of seats is unlikely to prevent a Labour government as opinion polling stands at present.  LD took advantage of this in 1997.

Anyway I don't expect Green to make much progress next year and could even lose Brighton, so it seems odds on now that we will both be finding out what a Starmer government looks like and maybe 5 years later we'll be of a similar mind- obviously it will be you saying "you were right all along Shevii and I apologise profusely to all the mean things I said to you" :-)

[davem]

I see our debate on population last week is breaking out into the wider world .

😎

[Deleted]

Jul 18, 2023 8:31:42 GMT steve said:

colin
I recall recently a case where a number of asylum seekers travelled to the Canary islands from the mainland of Africa while clutching on to the rudder at the back of a container ship for days.

The response in the Canaries wasn't to call for their immediate deportation or scream about invaders it was how incredibly brave, if reckless they had been and that safer methods needed to be provided.

But then again Spain isn't run by a xenophobic isolationist regime.

You need to do some more objective reading on Spain's efforts to combat the tide of unregulated migration which faces all European countries :-


 murciatoday.com/one_migrant_dies_every_4_hours_trying_to_reach_spain_by_small_boat_2188311-a.html

northafricapost.com/68929-morocco-a-reliable-indispensable-partner-for-spain-in-migration-management.html

www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/morocco-arrests-300-migrants-trying-to-cross-border-into-spain/2730990


www.africanews.com/2023/07/05/spain-dismantles-network-of-migrant-smugglers-from-algeria/

[Deleted]

Jul 18, 2023 8:53:49 GMT shevii said:

Jul 18, 2023 5:23:48 GMT crossbat11 said:

Based, in my view, far too much on mistaking electoral positioning for an inviolable prescription for governing.

Most people would accept that Labour can't do everything, but I think it goes beyond electoral positioning and not scaring Tory horses when Labour positions themselves as "there's no money left" and there's nothing we can do until we grow the economy. That's a Thatcherite positioning of there is no alternative. It's not even Blair's third way.

While you could argue that Blair was justified in largely keeping to Tory tax plans in 1997, because that was where the country was at the time, there seems little justification for it now.  5% on top earners has been dropped, CGT equalised with Income Tax has been dropped.  Other taxation plans, including on Corporation Tax, have been dropped.

So what Labour has bought into is that you cannot grow an economy by raising taxes and it can only be done by "growth" but without any agenda to achieve a growth that, on a planet with finite resources, has eluded most of the western world for the last 15 years.  You can grow an economy with tax rises that are used for investment but Labour appears to have blocked this off in their positioning so are reliant on any post Covid and Ukraine bounce back.  I think the 2008 crash, Covid and Ukraine were significant economic events that could be seen as unusual, but they are also a symptom that world economies are so unstable they are no longer able to recover quickly from these type of events and this is largely down to the super rich hoarding too much of the wealth and Westerm worlds unable to be competitive with cheaper labour in the Far East and elsewhere.  With the climate emergency now in full swing tweaking a Thatcherite solution which has been proved to have failed is not going to fix things one little bit.

You say anything is better than the Tories, I would say lets get the meaningful alternatives up and running now rather than wasting 5 years with a softer version of the same.  Some well positioned 2nd places for the Greens starting to appear and offering an alternative would, in my humble opinion, be more worthwhile than shifting chairs on the Titanic.  In some ways I'm arguing against something I've known to be true all my life that there are only two alternatives to government- Tory or Labour, but when I look at how the western world and the country is now, it feels like last days of the Roman empire that needs a radical reset.  Ironically Greens getting 7% vote share and a couple of seats is unlikely to prevent a Labour government as opinion polling stands at present.  LD took advantage of this in 1997.

Anyway I don't expect Green to make much progress next year and could even lose Brighton, so it seems odds on now that we will both be finding out what a Starmer government looks like and maybe 5 years later we'll be of a similar mind- obviously it will be you saying "you were right all along Shevii and I apologise profusely to all the mean things I said to you" :-)

I do have some sympathy and agreement , shevii  , with the view that the Western European standard of living and welfare systems may be becoming unsustainable by existing taxes on annual economic growth .

Either a step change in productivity via new technology -or increased tax % x GDP are required.

[bendo]

Jul 18, 2023 6:02:54 GMT neilj said:

Blair made a huge mistake with Iraq, but reading some of the comments here I think there is some amnesia about what he did achieve by the end of his period in office

1. 41. New Deal - helped over 1.8 million people into work.

Certainly one I was grateful for. Having just finished my HND in Electronics and Telecommunications, the industry pretty much disappeared with BT selecting cheap Chinese rubbish over buying from the likes of Marconi which promptly ceased to exist.

At this point I started signing on and prospects were pretty bleak, fortunately I was sent in a new deal IT course (didn't really learn anything in it as had already self taught in the area but with no qualifications, there was no route into work). Part of the new deal was placements with employers after the course and that helped me into the work place and enabled me to move up.

New Deal helped lots of people like myself into work. But you can also look back and say stupid decisions like privatising BT directly led to the demise of industrial on this country, rather than invest in tech from UK firms, they simply bought questionable cheaper Chinese stuff for their network modernisation. Good old Huawei stuff with questionable security and back doors.

The Tories ruined this country for short term gain and they happily do it time and time again. No idea how people fall for it over and over again.

[Deleted]

Jul 18, 2023 8:42:03 GMT pjw1961 said:

Jul 18, 2023 7:58:47 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

well no one formally announced “I decline!”, they just didn’t bother to take up the suggestion, as is their right of course. Thanks for your views on it - What did you think of Heath? 

Here's a challenge back. Here's my ranking of every Conservative and Labour leader since Heath and Wilson in order of preference and I have put every Labour leader above every Tory. Would you do the same? 

Miliband (my politics), Callaghan (underrated),Smith (might have been very good given the chance), Brown (unlucky), Wilson (over-rated as a PM, good at winning elections), Blair (would have been higher but for Iraq), Kinnock, Corbyn, Starmer, Foot// Major, Hague, Heath, May, Cameron, Howard, Sunak, Thatcher, Duncan Smith, Johnson, Truss.

Ah-the leftie's favourite Tory leader -The Grocer -gets demoted by you .

Still -your timeline lets you off the hook with the all time favourite of the left -The 1st Earl of Stockton.

[graham]

Jul 18, 2023 6:02:54 GMT neilj said:

Blair made a huge mistake with Iraq, but reading some of the comments here I think there is some amnesia about what he did achieve by the end of his period in office

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.

2. Low mortgage rates.

3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.

5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.

6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.

7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.

8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.

9. Employment is at its highest level ever.

10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.

11. 85,000 more nurses.

12. 32,000 more doctors.

13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.

17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.

19. Restored city-wide government to London.

20. Record number of students in higher education.

21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.

22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.

23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.

25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.

27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.

28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.

29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.

30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.

31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.

32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.

33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.

34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.

35. Banned fox hunting.

36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

37. Free TV licences for over-75s.

38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

41. New Deal - helped over 1.8 million people into work.

42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.

43. Free eye test for over 60s.

44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.

45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.

46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.

47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.

49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.

50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school

Lots of talk about moving the Overton window right, but the minimum wage certainly moved it left. Looking back it's hard to remember the tory objections to it, claiming it would cause unemployment. Now it is unthinkable for any of the major parties to scrap it, indeed they compete with each other to raise it
For adults when it was introduced in 2000 it was £3.60, if it had gone up with inflation it would be £6.50, it has actually gone up to £10.42

Blair could have done better, but ignoring what Labour did achieve I don't think is helpful

Not everybody sees Devolution as an achievement. I have always taken the view that Tam Dalyell was correct - and would like to see it reversed.

Blair also cemented in Thatcherism when he had the opportunity to reverse it. He carried on Privatising - including industries he had pledged to keep under public ownership - eg Air Traffic Control - despite having declared 'Our air is not for sale'.