oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Apr 24, 2023 20:28:11 GMT
Hence why the Cameron government discovered that it would be more expensive to cancel PoW than to have it built. I very much doubt that was literally true. And certainly wholly untrue considering the further costs to buy aircraft and support ships and then actually operate the things. We have still not been able to afford to turn these two capital ships into an effective fighting force. We are in the position of having bought a big gun, but now unable to afford any ammunition.
Your 2nd point is undermined by the Cameron governments announcement in 2010 that, while the 2nd carrier would have to be built for contractual penalty reasons, there was no need for it so it would be either mothballed or sold to an ally. It wasn't till 2014 that Cameron announced that it would be put into service - and only at which point would "the further costs to buy aircraft and support ships and then actually operate the thing" come into play.
It's not just that the pretensions of successive Lab and Con governments to being a world power are embarrassing, they are also ruinously expensive. |
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Post by eor on Apr 24, 2023 20:42:59 GMT
Tucker Carlson gets sacked! Probably not right wing enough  I heard about this earlier from a Dem friend, who added; "Yeah, they’ve mutual consented him - or perhaps he’s mutual consented them, it’s not entirely clear which way round at this point. He did have those text messages come out in the lawsuit they just settled with the electronic voting folks where he was telling people how much he hates Trump and how everyone else that works for Fox is shit, though, so it’s not hard to see why they might think he’s a bit of a liability moving forward. But I could also believe his brand is big enough at this point that Alex Jones or the One America News guys are just giving him a sack of money to do their thing instead. Or maybe both of those things are true and it’s the first ever Actually Mutual mutual consent." |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Apr 24, 2023 20:43:05 GMT
I know about the SDR, I was working for MoD at the time. The choice of designing the carriers to only take the F-35B was the really bad decision. STOVL means that the aircraft have much shorter ranges, are less manouverable, and can carry much less munitions than the F-35C carrier-variant. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II (see differences between variants). I am even less of a fan of Gordon Brown than you are, because he also damaged the UK's defence research capability by part-privatising DERA. He was going to privatise all of it until the Pentagon said it would end research sharing under "Five Eyes" agreements if he did. Rather than back down he ended up privatising three-quarters of it (and saving on civil service pensions) but it meant that in most departments only the leaders who did most of the international collaboration stayed as civil servants in Dstl - when they retired Dstl had to bring in staff from the private sector to replace them instead of having succession-planning already in place.
The really, really bad decision was for a middle ranking state to have pretensions to a past global grandeur and invest £ billions on overseas offensive capability. While, in domestic affairs, there are differences between the main parties in England, I see virtually none in terms of acceptance that the Empire is gone (though it shouldn't be forgotten). |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 24, 2023 20:43:11 GMT
PJW, Re ''Curious coincidence of timing that at the same moment RoC newspapers and commentators (including on here) are arguing that Raab style bullying is the right way to go and the public sector needs to be more like private business, the employers organisation the CBI is reaching the exact opposite conclusion'' Just checking that you did not mean to conflate being more like private business with bullying being the 'right way to go' viewpoint? My experience is that the private sector generally does not condone bullying and most decent employers have suitable measures in place. To get the best out of people bullying might work initially but is unsustainable, especially when job vacancies are so high. There will sadly of course be egregious examples to cite, the companies that abuse zero hours contracts for example. No, I deplore bullying in all environments and it is also a very ineffective form of 'motivation', being, in reality, counterproductive. I have worked in both private and public sectors and seen bullying in both. |
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Post by wb61 on Apr 24, 2023 20:46:08 GMT
The irony is that under labour who are alleged to run the economy so badly, it was actually going so well they believed we could afford the aircraft carriers. And indeed, had the good days of labour continued, then we could. Unfortunately the unregulated US banks filled the world with worthless securities based upon miss sold US mortgages. Causing a world bank crash and world recession. Labour had that under control as well as anyone could have hoped...and then con took over. Its been an economic disaster ever since. Con agonised over cancelling either one or both carriers, the second was certainly cancellable to save most of the money. But I guess they believed they could fix the economy...whereas they just kept making matters worse and worse. So no, It was David Cameron's folly to believe he could run the UK as well as labour had, starting from a much worse situation so that he would have had to have done a lot better than labour to recover ground. As we all know he wholly failed. And then along came Brexit taking everything from bad to worse. If he had known how bad it would be under conservative rule, no doubt he would have cancelled them. Hubris made him believe his own propaganda.
Still, I note that you believe the taxation from a successful UK economy should be used to allow the UK to mount offensive military actions in other countries, instead of benefitting its own citizens. Not an uncommon position for those in conservative circles, who believe in the UK imposing its will on others. to take.Not what most people think. A true penalty clause is unenforceable as a contractual term as it's against public policy as a restraint of trade. The clauses which are permitted are those that give a realistic assessment of the costs of preparatory work and the lost opportunity for profit taking account of the value of work done towards profit in an alternative project because of the duty to mitigate loss on the part of the innocent party. |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Apr 24, 2023 20:47:30 GMT
Meanwhile - The English government (even though it calls itself the UK one) takes English RCN to court. It would be delightfully appropriate if all members of UKGE got the clap.
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Post by wb61 on Apr 24, 2023 20:51:07 GMT
Should have put more coomas in that last comment but as I am on my phone not laptop and have taken drink I am not sure or,perhaps, even capable,
of amending it.
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Apr 24, 2023 20:51:38 GMT
Partisan rubbish, I'm afraid. Don't you have any clue as to what a "penalty clause" in a contract does?
Still, I note that you believe the taxation from a successful UK economy should be used to allow the UK to mount offensive military actions in other countries, instead of benefitting its own citizens. Not an uncommon position for those in conservative circles, who believe in the UK imposing its will on others. to take. Not what most people think. A true penalty clause is unenforceable as a contractual term as it's against public policy as a restraint of trade. The clauses which are permitted are those that give a realistic assessment of the costs of preparatory work and the lost opportunity for profit taking account of the value of work done towards profit in an alternative project because of the duty to mitigate loss on the part of the innocent party. |
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Post by wb61 on Apr 24, 2023 20:52:22 GMT
Or perhaps writing in English even
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Apr 24, 2023 20:59:36 GMT
Or perhaps writing in English even |
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Post by jib on Apr 24, 2023 21:00:31 GMT
The irony is that under labour who are alleged to run the economy so badly, it was actually going so well they believed we could afford the aircraft carriers. And indeed, had the good days of labour continued, then we could. Unfortunately the unregulated US banks filled the world with worthless securities based upon miss sold US mortgages. Causing a world bank crash and world recession. Labour had that under control as well as anyone could have hoped...and then con took over. Its been an economic disaster ever since. Con agonised over cancelling either one or both carriers, the second was certainly cancellable to save most of the money. But I guess they believed they could fix the economy...whereas they just kept making matters worse and worse. So no, It was David Cameron's folly to believe he could run the UK as well as labour had, starting from a much worse situation so that he would have had to have done a lot better than labour to recover ground. As we all know he wholly failed. And then along came Brexit taking everything from bad to worse. If he had known how bad it would be under conservative rule, no doubt he would have cancelled them. Hubris made him believe his own propaganda.
Still, I note that you believe the taxation from a successful UK economy should be used to allow the UK to mount offensive military actions in other countries, instead of benefitting its own citizens. Not an uncommon position for those in conservative circles, who believe in the UK imposing its will on others. to take.The UK hasn't had the military might to mount any successful unilateral offensive operations* since the end of WW1. I think WW2 came as a bit of a shock, and we nearly lost then. We did lose "our" Empire. We "won" as part of a coalition. Sometimes it's best to pool resources, and a couple of aircraft carriers helps the cause. The French think along the same lines..... *I suppose the Falklands might qualify, but.... |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 24, 2023 21:03:16 GMT
PJW, Re ''Curious coincidence of timing that at the same moment RoC newspapers and commentators (including on here) are arguing that Raab style bullying is the right way to go and the public sector needs to be more like private business, the employers organisation the CBI is reaching the exact opposite conclusion''Just checking that you did not mean to conflate being more like private business with bullying being the 'right way to go' viewpoint? My experience is that the private sector generally does not condone bullying and most decent employers have suitable measures in place. To get the best out of people bullying might work initially but is unsustainable, especially when job vacancies are so high. There will sadly of course be egregious examples to cite, the companies that abuse zero hours contracts for example. Another "fake gotcha" from PJW? Did anyone "on here" actually say "Raab style bullying is the right way to go" or has PJW made that up. As for comparison to CBI then was Raab accused of 'sexual misconduct' or has PJW tried to conflate an "abrasive" management style with sexual misconduct?
Revealed: new claims of sexual misconduct and ‘toxic culture’ at CBIwww.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/03/revealed-new-claims-of-sexual-misconduct-and-toxic-culture-at-cbiFirstly lets see if it is "fake" claim. Trevor posted this a couple of days ago: "I obviously can't speak for Rishi (who has a background in finance) but my experience of working in the City is where I'll offer my 2c after folks read: How bullying became Westminster’s latest culture war www.politico.eu/article/uk-bullying-westminster-culture-war-dominic-raab-resignation/My 2c. Being "bullied" was once considered a "rite of passage" as you started as a 'grunt' and worked your way up. 'Back office' (equiv of civil service) took a lot of what would now be considered "bullying" from the 'front office' (equiv of ministers). The hard working people in the back office progressed and the crap ones did not - many 'jumping' as they were clearly not suited to the job. Then there was a period of the 'fun police' (HR) saying you can't behave like that ("bullying" in their opinion) anymore. Some adjustment was required and more formal guidelines WRT to 'performance' were established. So if someone in the 'back office' was genuinely crap at their job we then had to use 'proper process' to get them sacked (or moved onto looking after the Equities desk which I'd guess is the equivalent of the Scottish office). TBC of course but if there is a 'culture' of 'low productivity' in the Civil Service, then even more formalised procedures with a clear set of criteria is perhaps something the 'low' performers should not have wished for. A tactical retreat can draw your enemies out into the open and lull them into a false sense of security  Lose a battle. Rearm. Win the (latest culture) war." There is a second post from Trevor on the same day to similar effect I could reproduce if needed, but they are there in the record for all to see anyway. Secondly, while the headline issues at the CBI are about sexual assault (because it is the most serious element), there is a lot more to it than that. The CBI's response makes it clear there was a wider cultural issue about whistle blowers not being believed and senior people were protected, which permitted all sorts of abuse. Their proposed solutions are stronger internal procedures and governance to protect victims of all forms of maltreatment and a major culture shift within the organisation. This is of direct relevance to the discussion on best practice management cultures, which are certainly nothing like those Trevor describes above. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 24, 2023 21:05:29 GMT
On further investigation I see that the phone alert would only be received by people whose android phones are running version 11 or higher. And updates automatically stop a year or two after purchase, presumably to build in obsolescence. But in this case building in safety from disturbing alarms for anyone with an older phone.
I still see a discrepancy between government notices that a few phones didnt get the alarm and R4 this morning suggesting ten million. Plus at least one report their phone simply stopped operating.
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Post by alec on Apr 24, 2023 21:09:26 GMT
Worth noting, perhaps, that current sea surface temperatures are at record highs, 'off the charts' in the language of the usually sober climate change scientists.
There is an El Nino brewing, which currently looks like being the most powerful one yet in the modern era, so we can expect some turbulent weather records over the next 18 months or so, but the backdrop is pretty catastrophic in terms of the rate of change. It's feeding through into much more rapid ice cap losses than was once hoped, and some speculation that we have already passed a number of potential tipping points.
On the brighter side, there are signs that the atmospheric CO2 levels are starting to stabilize, but that won't be enough.
While I would generally prefer to shave off a few years and be a bit younger, sometimes it feels as if it's better to be older.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Apr 24, 2023 21:14:14 GMT
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Apr 24, 2023 21:19:36 GMT
Partisan rubbish, I'm afraid. Don't you have any clue as to what a "penalty clause" in a contract does?
Still, I note that you believe the taxation from a successful UK economy should be used to allow the UK to mount offensive military actions in other countries, instead of benefitting its own citizens. Not an uncommon position for those in conservative circles, who believe in the UK imposing its will on others. to take. I think WW2 came as a bit of a shock, and we nearly lost then. We did lose "our" Empire. We "won" as part of a coalition. Sometimes it's best to pool resources, and a couple of aircraft carriers helps the cause. The French think along the same lines..... *I suppose the Falklands might qualify, but....
"And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing." |
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Post by eor on Apr 24, 2023 21:25:01 GMT
Worth noting, perhaps, that current sea surface temperatures are at record highs, 'off the charts' in the language of the usually sober climate change scientists. If they're no longer sober then that could just mean they're literally struggling to locate the relevant graphs? |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,711
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Apr 24, 2023 21:30:41 GMT
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 24, 2023 21:36:11 GMT
I'm certainly not anti-tech but nor do I pretend to understand it (when I was at school computers were large things with reels of tape on the front that could only operate in air conditioned rooms. I first actually used one - i.e. a desktop PC - when I was 27). But if it helps, I'm all for it! |
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Post by hireton on Apr 24, 2023 21:41:16 GMT
This seems to be actual footage. If so it is utterly bizarre:
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,711
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Apr 24, 2023 21:43:28 GMT
I'm certainly not anti-tech but nor do I pretend to understand it (when I was at school computers were large things with reels of tape on the front that could only operate in air conditioned rooms. I first actually used one - i.e. a desktop PC - when I was 27). But if it helps, I'm all for it! My first use of a computer was on a university mainframe in the mid-Seventies in my early teens, as our school was ahead of the game and had a modem link. Didn’t get much chance to use it, with one terminal being shared among the whole class in a forty minute maths lesson, so being an enterprising sort I arranged with the maths teacher to pop round his house to borrow the key to the room at times when it wasn’t being used and had it all to myself. (For a while. Until others found out…) By the time I left the school had a room full of Research Machine 380z if anyone remembers those. (When I got to Oxford I saw one in the labs there too, made you feel at home…) |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Apr 24, 2023 21:47:57 GMT
Good to see that Scots are helping to improve UK trade. Don’t mind exporting the oil so much but does it have to be the whisky too? |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Apr 24, 2023 21:50:55 GMT
This seems to be actual footage. If so it is utterly bizarre: |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Apr 24, 2023 21:54:16 GMT
You would be in even deeper shit, if it wasn't for the export earnings of whisky and oil. Don’t mind exporting the oil so much but does it have to be the whisky too? |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Apr 24, 2023 21:57:47 GMT
This seems to be actual footage. If so it is utterly bizarre: The Russians must be putting something in the water I reckon, everyone in this country appears to have gone bonkers. Worryingly the guy making the commentary appears to be Irish, I thought I could rely on them as a last bastion of sanity! |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Apr 24, 2023 21:58:25 GMT
Don’t mind exporting the oil so much but does it have to be the whisky too? I was going to suggest exporting more of something else instead, like haggis or cabers or bagpipes or summat, but that does sound like a lot of whisky to be fair |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Apr 24, 2023 21:58:43 GMT
No reference to anyone on this board should be assumed!
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Apr 24, 2023 22:13:19 GMT
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 24, 2023 22:28:32 GMT
This seems to be actual footage. If so it is utterly bizarre: One or two of our fine Police officers looked just a tad out of puff there All a bit North Korean - although their running bodyguards look rather more menacing. www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKeWICoG2Js |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 24, 2023 22:33:24 GMT
Just remember it isn't the fault of the poor souls staffing the polling station. They have no choice but to enforce the law, so don't give them a hard time about it. |
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