Danny
Member
Posts: 10,361
|
Post by Danny on Apr 24, 2023 15:54:58 GMT
To use your analogy are you really saying if the UK Government stripped every black snd Asian British person of their nationality, regardless of how many generations their family had held British nationality, that would not be a racist policy? Not at all. My whole point is that many, maybe most, german jews looked exactly the same as non-jews. Precisely because as you say they had lived there for generations. The analogy would be government in the Uk choosing everyone who attended a Roman catholic church last week, and sending them all to concentration camps. Something not dissimilar to this has indeed happened in Uk history. It wasnt what these people looked like at all which mattered, but their particular religious belief. and so another analogy would be picking everyone who arrives here in a boat without the right paperwork, and sending them to Rwanda. Regardless of whether or not they have a right to be here under international law, which it seems many even most of them do. As you describe happened in Nazi Germany, the Uk is simply ignoring their rights to live here and packing them off to an african Ghetto. Anyway, this isnt now in the UK and wasnt then in germany because of what they looked like or their ethnicity, so no, its not analogous in either case to picking all the black or all the asian people. So its not based upon race. |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,638
|
Post by steve on Apr 24, 2023 16:02:23 GMT
Tucker Carlson gets sacked!
|
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
Member is Online
|
Post by pjw1961 on Apr 24, 2023 16:04:34 GMT
Btw, Trevor doesn't understand the meaning of 'dark money'. It is not just money from rich individuals (which can indeed be dodgy if they are seeking influence) but money the source of which is unknown or not transparent. The funding of the highly influential 55 Tufton Street organisations are a good example of this. Then there is the question of where certain substantial amounts of pro-Brexit finding originated (I will not go into details due to the legal position, but the cases were heavily publicised at the time).
|
|
|
|
Post by jimjam on Apr 24, 2023 16:05:05 GMT
Last weeks 12% lead and this weeks 15% all noise around 14%:
''@redfieldwilton
Labour leads by 15%, up three points from last week.
Westminster VI (23 April):
Labour 44% (–)
Conservative 29% (-3)
Liberal Democrat 11% (+1)
Reform UK 6% (+2)
Green 5% (+1)
Scottish National Party 3% (-1)
Other 1% (–)
Changes +/- 16 April
redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voti… pic.twitter.com/3exp4IfsOY
24/04/2023, 17:00''
|
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,361
|
Post by Danny on Apr 24, 2023 16:07:27 GMT
And one of the greatest acts of racial hatred in the past century – the Holocaust – is also sidelined by Abbott as she claims Jewish people and Traveller communities can’t be victims of racism. In the sections I have seen quoted, abbot seems to be saying people often mix up racism and prejudices based on things other than race. Which is plainly true. On the 'one drop of blood' principle, everyone in the Uk must be black, and yet its frequently only the ones with actually black skin who are singled out. So no, people do not generally take a purist approach to this when making racist distinctions. However in the actual Nazi holocaust they did take the view that anyone closely related to a practicing jew was a jew, completely regardless of their percentage heredity of a certain eastern mediterranean tribe. In principle I dont think they really even cared, the whole point was to single out jews as a class and blame them for everything that was wrong. A perfect scapegoat. It really didnt matter how ethnically jewish any of them were, just that they qualified to have the label stuck on them. It wasnt about the percentage heredity traceable to that original tribe. It was about their lifestyle not their genetics. |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
Member is Online
|
Post by pjw1961 on Apr 24, 2023 16:08:23 GMT
Tucker Carlson gets sacked! Probably not right wing enough  |
|
Mr Poppy
Member
Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
|
Post by Mr Poppy on Apr 24, 2023 16:21:18 GMT
Last weeks 12% lead and this weeks 15% all noise around 14% is: They've added "Dominic Raab resigns" to their tracker graph. I also note govt competency has dropped back: "The Government’s net competency rating stands at -31% this week (-7)" I personally didn't expect "Raabgate" to make much impact and could be a 'one poll' caveat (ie noise) but a new 'rule of 4' starts with one poll so far showing a reversal of last week's narrowing. Also I note the largest change in CON'19 x-break was an increase for RUK VI |
|
|
|
Post by alec on Apr 24, 2023 16:23:11 GMT
Danny - "..they will see you seldom reply in kind to a well referenced response." That's another lie. I've no problem discussing well referenced posts. It's when people make stuff up that I respond in kind. On covid, you don't do references. If you did, you wouldn't carry so many barmy ideas. Don't pretend to be the victim here. You know full well the game you're playing. And so do I.
|
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,361
|
Post by Danny on Apr 24, 2023 16:24:44 GMT
The Prince of Wales has never been functional, and likely never will. Think what else we might have done with the thousands of millions of pounds wasted on this white elephant. We could have built loads of houses the country is crying out for. That would help bring house prices down.
We could have paid doctors, nurses, teachers and other public sector workers a fair wage. That would mean you could actually SEE a GP.
We could have invested it in housing insulation schemes to help keep people's heating bills down. That would mean the poor would be better off.
We could have continued to subsidise renewable technologies to help develop that market. That would help the planet survive.
... Am I close? Or we could have given it to the Tories' mates, to augment their PPE payments? That would help, er, ...
Am I closer? No doubt some bright spark is going to reply with tax cuts. But then there's always one...
Being as it was the defence budget, we could have spent it on enough ammunition to actually fight a war and some tanks. So that we would have had this to give to the ukrainians who are fighting a war on our behalf. Its often the case military spending follows the last war, not the actual needs of the next one. |
|
|
|
Post by pete on Apr 24, 2023 17:01:07 GMT
Starmers quick removing of the whip from Abbott makes him look decisive and strong. Compare to flaky Sunaks non sacking of Raab.
Starmers getting things done.
|
|
|
|
Post by pete on Apr 24, 2023 17:19:17 GMT
Tucker Carlson gets sacked! Not shocked. Another massive court case around the corner for Murdochs Fox (Smartmatic). Going to cost 1 billion at least. Being a right-wing loon costs these days. |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
Member is Online
|
Post by pjw1961 on Apr 24, 2023 17:42:17 GMT
Curious coincidence of timing that at the same moment RoC newspapers and commentators (including on here) are arguing that Raab style bullying is the right way to go and the public sector needs to be more like private business, the employers organisation the CBI is reaching the exact opposite conclusion: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65375311 |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2023 18:08:54 GMT
And one of the greatest acts of racial hatred in the past century – the Holocaust – is also sidelined by Abbott as she claims Jewish people and Traveller communities can’t be victims of racism. In the sections I have seen quoted, abbot seems to be saying people often mix up racism and prejudices based on things other than race. Which is plainly true. On the 'one drop of blood' principle, everyone in the Uk must be black, and yet its frequently only the ones with actually black skin who are singled out. So no, people do not generally take a purist approach to this when making racist distinctions. However in the actual Nazi holocaust they did take the view that anyone closely related to a practicing jew was a jew, completely regardless of their percentage heredity of a certain eastern mediterranean tribe. In principle I dont think they really even cared, the whole point was to single out jews as a class and blame them for everything that was wrong. A perfect scapegoat. It really didnt matter how ethnically jewish any of them were, just that they qualified to have the label stuck on them. It wasnt about the percentage heredity traceable to that original tribe. It was about their lifestyle not their genetics. On the contrary the Nazis had very specific definitions of who was classed as Jewish, and had degrees of Jewishness largely depending on ones grandparents ethnic, religious and cultural affiliations.
They were very much concerned with notions of purity of the bloodline, which were codified in the Nuremburg Laws.
The Decree sets up the legal test defined here.
Part one
The first part of the test is implemented by setting up three categories as follows:
A person with 3 or more Jewish grandparents is considered to be a Jew.
A person with exactly two Jewish grandparents is considered to be either a Jew or a Mischling of the first degree[9] (discussed below, second part of test)
A person with only one Jewish grandparent is considered to be a Mischling of the second degree.[10]
Part two
The remaining problem was the treatment of a person with two Jewish and two non-Jewish grandparents. This leads to the second part of the test, which has four subdivisions. A person with exactly two Jewish grandparents was deemed a Jew (specifically, a Geltungsjude)[11] if either:
(a) he is a member of the Jewish religious community on 14 November 1935 or later becomes a member; or
(b) he is married to a Jew on 14 November 1935 or later marries a Jew; or
(c) his parents were married on or after 17 September 1935, and one of his parents is Jewish; or
(d) he is born out of wedlock after 31 July 1936, and one of his parents is Jewish.[citation needed]
If such a person is not classified as a Jew under any of these four subtests, then he is a Mischling of the 1st degree (by the terms of Part One).
|
|
graham
Member
Posts: 3,764
Member is Online
|
Post by graham on Apr 24, 2023 18:09:45 GMT
Starmers quick removing of the whip from Abbott makes him look decisive and strong. Compare to flaky Sunaks non sacking of Raab. Starmers getting things done. Getting rid of war criminals like Blair might really boost his ratings. |
|
|
|
Post by leftieliberal on Apr 24, 2023 18:12:08 GMT
The Prince of Wales has never been functional, and likely never will. Think what else we might have done with the thousands of millions of pounds wasted on this white elephant. We could have built loads of houses the country is crying out for. That would help bring house prices down. We could have paid doctors, nurses, teachers and other public sector workers a fair wage. That would mean you could actually SEE a GP. We could have invested it in housing insulation schemes to help keep people's heating bills down. That would mean the poor would be better off. We could have continued to subsidise renewable technologies to help develop that market. That would help the planet survive.
...
Am I close?
Or we could have given it to the Tories' mates, to augment their PPE payments? That would help, er, ...
Am I closer? No doubt some bright spark is going to reply with tax cuts. But then there's always one...
The aircraft carriers were Gordon Brown's folly, basically ordered to keep the Rosyth dockyard in business. And yes, we could have done much more with the money. Pork is something that is not restricted to American politics. |
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on Apr 24, 2023 18:42:21 GMT
The aircraft carriers were Gordon Brown's folly, basically ordered to keep the Rosyth dockyard in business. And yes, we could have done much more with the money. Pork is something that is not restricted to American politics.
The SDR of 1998 proposed building the two Queen Elizabeth class carriers as they would offer -
"The ability to operate offensive aircraft overseas, when foreign bases may not be available early in a conflict
All the required space and infrastructure, as even where foreign bases are available infrastructure is often lacking
A coercive and deterrent effect when deployed to a trouble spot"
While Rosyth assembled the ships, the hull sections were built in 6 dockyards around the UK, and the specialist bits - engines, propellers etc - manufactured in a range of other locations.
The original contract was for two ships, and the cost of the QE was less than it would have been had only 1 ship had been ordered, as the Aircraft Carrier Alliance (BAE and Thales) split the development costs over the 2 carriers, and ensured that there were penalty clauses in the contract that would kick in if the 2nd carrier was cancelled. Hence why the Cameron government discovered that it would be more expensive to cancel PoW than to have it built. |
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,720
Member is Online
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Apr 24, 2023 18:42:27 GMT
We could have built loads of houses the country is crying out for. That would help bring house prices down. We could have paid doctors, nurses, teachers and other public sector workers a fair wage. That would mean you could actually SEE a GP. We could have invested it in housing insulation schemes to help keep people's heating bills down. That would mean the poor would be better off. We could have continued to subsidise renewable technologies to help develop that market. That would help the planet survive.
...
Am I close?
Or we could have given it to the Tories' mates, to augment their PPE payments? That would help, er, ...
Am I closer? No doubt some bright spark is going to reply with tax cuts. But then there's always one...
The aircraft carriers were Gordon Brown's folly, basically ordered to keep the Rosyth dockyard in business. And yes, we could have done much more with the money. We didn’t even use them for the Olympics 👎👎 |
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,389
Member is Online
|
Post by neilj on Apr 24, 2023 18:52:55 GMT
@danny
I should have learned my lesson arguing with you over the Battle of Hastings
It's pointless, when you get an idea in your head no one can persuade you that you are wrong
|
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,389
Member is Online
|
Post by neilj on Apr 24, 2023 19:02:35 GMT
More from RedfieldWilton
|
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,389
Member is Online
|
Post by neilj on Apr 24, 2023 19:04:32 GMT
Tory Government competency rating drops further
|
|
|
|
Post by jimjam on Apr 24, 2023 19:06:51 GMT
PJW,
Re ''Curious coincidence of timing that at the same moment RoC newspapers and commentators (including on here) are arguing that Raab style bullying is the right way to go and the public sector needs to be more like private business, the employers organisation the CBI is reaching the exact opposite conclusion''
Just checking that you did not mean to conflate being more like private business with bullying being the 'right way to go' viewpoint?
My experience is that the private sector generally does not condone bullying and most decent employers have suitable measures in place.
To get the best out of people bullying might work initially but is unsustainable, especially when job vacancies are so high.
There will sadly of course be egregious examples to cite, the companies that abuse zero hours contracts for example.
|
|
|
|
Post by shevii on Apr 24, 2023 19:13:02 GMT
Starmers quick removing of the whip from Abbott makes him look decisive and strong. Compare to flaky Sunaks non sacking of Raab. Starmers getting things done. Just as quick to remove the whip from Barry "run on silver shekels" Sheerman. Oh Wait... |
|
Mr Poppy
Member
Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
|
Post by Mr Poppy on Apr 24, 2023 19:17:14 GMT
PJW, Re ''Curious coincidence of timing that at the same moment RoC newspapers and commentators (including on here) are arguing that Raab style bullying is the right way to go and the public sector needs to be more like private business, the employers organisation the CBI is reaching the exact opposite conclusion''Just checking that you did not mean to conflate being more like private business with bullying being the 'right way to go' viewpoint? My experience is that the private sector generally does not condone bullying and most decent employers have suitable measures in place. To get the best out of people bullying might work initially but is unsustainable, especially when job vacancies are so high. There will sadly of course be egregious examples to cite, the companies that abuse zero hours contracts for example. Another "fake gotcha" from PJW? Did anyone "on here" actually say "Raab style bullying is the right way to go" or has PJW made that up. As for comparison to CBI then was Raab accused of 'sexual misconduct' or has PJW tried to conflate an "abrasive" management style with sexual misconduct?
Revealed: new claims of sexual misconduct and ‘toxic culture’ at CBIwww.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/03/revealed-new-claims-of-sexual-misconduct-and-toxic-culture-at-cbi |
|
domjg
Member
Posts: 5,123
|
Post by domjg on Apr 24, 2023 19:38:11 GMT
PJW, Re ''Curious coincidence of timing that at the same moment RoC newspapers and commentators (including on here) are arguing that Raab style bullying is the right way to go and the public sector needs to be more like private business, the employers organisation the CBI is reaching the exact opposite conclusion'' Just checking that you did not mean to conflate being more like private business with bullying being the 'right way to go' viewpoint? My experience is that the private sector generally does not condone bullying and most decent employers have suitable measures in place. To get the best out of people bullying might work initially but is unsustainable, especially when job vacancies are so high. There will sadly of course be egregious examples to cite, the companies that abuse zero hours contracts for example. Indeed. I have some knowledge of the policies on this sort of thing across a number of companies and any kind of bullying and harassment is taken extremely seriously.The idea of ‘psychological safety’ is a big part of integrity training for employees at all levels these days. Another big thing that is heavily encouraged across the board is reporting any questionable behaviour observed, even if witnessed as a third party, and an absolute zero tolerance of any retaliation behaviour as a result of calling someone out, no matter how senior. I could imagine though that parts of the city are still a law unto themselves and pretty behind the curve on these matters |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,361
|
Post by Danny on Apr 24, 2023 19:43:16 GMT
A person with 3 or more Jewish grandparents is considered to be a Jew. thats my point. It didnt matter whether the person concerned had stereotypical palestinian jewish features or whether they looked like a poster arian. It was nothing to do with their actual racial type. It was about the social identity of their recent ancestors. Its very different to hating someone because their skin is black. In a mixed white/black family you might get kids who randomly turn out looking white, or looking black. And then they might go off to university and the white looking one gets treated very different to the black looking one. Thats classical racial prejudice. But in nazi Germany didnt matter if one looked a classic arian, and the other a stereotypical jew. It wasnt their racial type Nazis objected to but their national identity. |
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on Apr 24, 2023 19:45:26 GMT
Why, oh why, won't foreigners do what UK Foreign Secretary tells them? Don't they understand that being Great Britain allows its government to tell everyone else what to do?
|
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,361
|
Post by Danny on Apr 24, 2023 19:53:07 GMT
The aircraft carriers were Gordon Brown's folly, basically ordered to keep the Rosyth dockyard in business. And yes, we could have done much more with the money. Pork is something that is not restricted to American politics. The irony is that under labour who are alleged to run the economy so badly, it was actually going so well they believed we could afford the aircraft carriers. And indeed, had the good days of labour continued, then we could. Unfortunately the unregulated US banks filled the world with worthless securities based upon miss sold US mortgages. Causing a world bank crash and world recession. Labour had that under control as well as anyone could have hoped...and then con took over. Its been an economic disaster ever since. Con agonised over cancelling either one or both carriers, the second was certainly cancellable to save most of the money. But I guess they believed they could fix the economy...whereas they just kept making matters worse and worse. So no, It was David Cameron's folly to believe he could run the UK as well as labour had, starting from a much worse situation so that he would have had to have done a lot better than labour to recover ground. As we all know he wholly failed. And then along came Brexit taking everything from bad to worse. If he had known how bad it would be under conservative rule, no doubt he would have cancelled them. Hubris made him believe his own propaganda. |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,361
|
Post by Danny on Apr 24, 2023 19:55:48 GMT
Hence why the Cameron government discovered that it would be more expensive to cancel PoW than to have it built. I very much doubt that was literally true. And certainly wholly untrue considering the further costs to buy aircraft and support ships and then actually operate the things. We have still not been able to afford to turn these two capital ships into an effective fighting force. We are in the position of having bought a big gun, but now unable to afford any ammunition. |
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on Apr 24, 2023 20:12:03 GMT
The aircraft carriers were Gordon Brown's folly, basically ordered to keep the Rosyth dockyard in business. And yes, we could have done much more with the money. Pork is something that is not restricted to American politics. The irony is that under labour who are alleged to run the economy so badly, it was actually going so well they believed we could afford the aircraft carriers. And indeed, had the good days of labour continued, then we could. Unfortunately the unregulated US banks filled the world with worthless securities based upon miss sold US mortgages. Causing a world bank crash and world recession. Labour had that under control as well as anyone could have hoped...and then con took over. Its been an economic disaster ever since. Con agonised over cancelling either one or both carriers, the second was certainly cancellable to save most of the money. But I guess they believed they could fix the economy...whereas they just kept making matters worse and worse. So no, It was David Cameron's folly to believe he could run the UK as well as labour had, starting from a much worse situation so that he would have had to have done a lot better than labour to recover ground. As we all know he wholly failed. And then along came Brexit taking everything from bad to worse. If he had known how bad it would be under conservative rule, no doubt he would have cancelled them. Hubris made him believe his own propaganda.
Still, I note that you believe the taxation from a successful UK economy should be used to allow the UK to mount offensive military actions in other countries, instead of benefitting its own citizens. Not an uncommon position for those in conservative circles, who believe in the UK imposing its will on others. to take. |
|
|
|
Post by leftieliberal on Apr 24, 2023 20:25:42 GMT
The aircraft carriers were Gordon Brown's folly, basically ordered to keep the Rosyth dockyard in business. And yes, we could have done much more with the money. Pork is something that is not restricted to American politics.
The SDR of 1998 proposed building the two Queen Elizabeth class carriers as they would offer -
"The ability to operate offensive aircraft overseas, when foreign bases may not be available early in a conflict
All the required space and infrastructure, as even where foreign bases are available infrastructure is often lacking
A coercive and deterrent effect when deployed to a trouble spot"
While Rosyth assembled the ships, the hull sections were built in 6 dockyards around the UK, and the specialist bits - engines, propellers etc - manufactured in a range of other locations.
The original contract was for two ships, and the cost of the QE was less than it would have been had only 1 ship had been ordered, as the Aircraft Carrier Alliance (BAE and Thales) split the development costs over the 2 carriers, and ensured that there were penalty clauses in the contract that would kick in if the 2nd carrier was cancelled. Hence why the Cameron government discovered that it would be more expensive to cancel PoW than to have it built.I know about the SDR, I was working for MoD at the time. The choice of designing the carriers to only take the F-35B was the really bad decision. STOVL means that the aircraft have much shorter ranges, are less manouverable, and can carry much less munitions than the F-35C carrier-variant. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II (see differences between variants). I am even less of a fan of Gordon Brown than you are, because he also damaged the UK's defence research capability by part-privatising DERA. He was going to privatise all of it until the Pentagon said it would end research sharing under "Five Eyes" agreements if he did. Rather than back down he ended up privatising three-quarters of it (and saving on civil service pensions) but it meant that in most departments only the leaders who did most of the international collaboration stayed as civil servants in Dstl - when they retired Dstl had to bring in staff from the private sector to replace them instead of having succession-planning already in place. |
|
