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Post by alec on Apr 24, 2023 9:07:28 GMT
Danny - "Last time the fine print explained there was no reason to think this had anything to do with covid.." It didn't. The report clearly stated that ill health was the main reason for heightened absence, and that covid was a large part of that. Stop making shit up and then lying about it.
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Post by leftieliberal on Apr 24, 2023 9:59:41 GMT
If they still used the 'one drop of blood' rule, then all of us non-sub-Saharan Africans would be counted as Neanderthals. Rather more serious than the Barbary pirates for Abbott's arguments, is that hardly any African slaves were actually captured by Europeans. Most were actually captured by other Africans who sold them to Europeans: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53444752In practice, slavery had been going on for centuries in Africa, but the arrival of the Europeans allowed them to sell the slaves in return for European goods, rather than just using their labour. So perhaps it should be Nigeria that is paying reparations.  IMO no one should be paying reparations for stuff that happened centuries ago - although you appear to have changed your tune (eg your previous comments supporting the Church making reparations). Smiley alert, which you seemed to have missed. Reparations is a difficult subject. I don't agree with simply paying people monetary reparations, but I would like to see our Universities, for example, offering free scholarships to students from Caribbean countries. Where money in the form of donations in the past can be traced back to slavery then it should be spent on benefiting people from those countries. As the saying goes: give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for life. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Apr 24, 2023 10:01:58 GMT
More on the 'changes' that Raab's (temporary?) exit might well now bring in:
"Senior Tories call for Whitehall shake-up amid fears Dominic Raab probe will leave them ‘powerless’ over staff"inews.co.uk/news/politics/tories-whitehall-dominic-raab-probe-staff-2293008?colin and jimjam have mentioned the US approach before and I'm not sure that is the 'best' approach but the current situation of some unelected civil servants blocking/frustrating policies from a democratically elected government just because they don't personally like them/the policies, needs to be changed. Raab has created the opportunity for that change. If people have examples from other countries then be curious to see how they manage policy implementation. We don't know if its anything to do with 'just because they don't personally like them/the policies,' it could just be they're not workable or breaking laws? I love that Trevor is actually pushing this ludicrous tory failure excuse narrative as if it's likely to persuade anyone here! |
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Post by leftieliberal on Apr 24, 2023 10:05:11 GMT
ptarmigan - I would also be sad to see Abbott go. She has been one of the (very) few MPs who have taken a stand on the threat to working people and the disadvantaged from covid. It's a very unfashionable stance to take. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Apr 24, 2023 10:23:15 GMT
IMO no one should be paying reparations for stuff that happened centuries ago - although you appear to have changed your tune (eg your previous comments supporting the Church making reparations). Smiley alert, which you seemed to have missed. Reparations is a difficult subject. I don't agree with simply paying people monetary reparations, but I would like to see our Universities, for example, offering free scholarships to students from Caribbean countries. Where money in the form of donations in the past can be traced back to slavery then it should be spent on benefiting people from those countries. As the saying goes: give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for life. I spotted the but admit to not knowing why you thought the subject deserved a I agree 'reparations' is a difficult subject so I'll state my opinion as simply as I can: 1/ Current taxpayers in UK (my polity) should not pay reparations* for stuff that UK families/HMG was involved in centuries ago, given none of the people effected are alive today. That doesn't mean we shouldn't help out poorer countries via trade, etc. 2/ Individuals who inherited wealth from slave owning families can do whatever they want and should be 'encouraged' to do so (although see below link for the risk of 'white saviour' accusations) I wouldn't personally pick 'free scholarships' to UK universities as that would IMO fall under claims of being 'white saviour' - which IIRC is something that likes of Lammy are very much against. IMO we need to move away from the 'race' issue being based on skin colour/heritage as that creates division - the kind of division that those pushing a 'white supremacy' agenda benefit from. If a University that benefited from donations linked to slavery in the distant past wants to help a country out then fund education in that country - don't cherry pick a few people** from Caribbean countries to then come to UK. IMO of course.
Descendants of UK slave owners call on government to apologisewww.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/24/descendants-of-uk-slave-owners-call-on-government-to-apologise* I appreciate some politicians engage in 'virtual signalling' but I note that by far the highest % for 'What sector is the UK government spending too much money on?' is "Foreign Aid". Charity begins at home as they say. yougov.co.uk/topics/education/trackers/what-sector-is-the-uk-government-spending-too-much-onPerhaps LAB can say they'll fund a return to 0.7% of GDP for Foreign Aid via a 'proper windfall tax' - given they've used the 'proper windfall tax' to fund about a dozen 'pinky promises' already, then one more will probably go unnoticed (  specific to LAB's "attack ads"). If LDEM have a policy then by all means share it. ** Noting that those people would probably be a countries best fisherfolk who probably already benefit from being children of richer people in their own country and would then possibly stay in UK rather than returning to help their own country out. IE don't steal a countries best fisherfolk to come and learn to fish in UK, for UK. Teach a much larger number of fisherfolk in their own country to fish for their country, in their country. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Apr 24, 2023 10:38:33 GMT
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Apr 24, 2023 10:39:19 GMT
Firstly it didn't matter to the nazis if you practiced Judaism or not, if your parents were Jewish you were treated as Jewish. So really this was more a response to their nationality than their race? if it wasnt how they looked or what they did, then it was simply expelling illegal immigrants? (who by analogy to the current Uk situation now, actually had lawful rights to be there) Well yes Germans described themselves as the master race, but I dont exactly recall them describing jews as a race. All the evidence is that in physical terms many identified as jews were identical to others identified as Germans in good standing. So the only difference was an inherited nationality. Just as the Uk is doing now? I am surprised at your lack of knowledge in this area, most Jews or those of Jewish descent in Germany were German nationals and had been for generations, many fighting with distinction for Germany in the First World War The Nuremberg race laws stripped German citizenship from them The nazis saw Jews as 'Untermenschen', sub human, along with Romanies, Slavs, Black people and others who were not considered to be aryan enough to be a member of the 'master race' The whole philosophy of the nazis was based on race To use your analogy are you really saying if the UK Government stripped every black snd Asian British person of their nationality, regardless of how many generations their family had held British nationality, that would not be a racist policy? |
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Post by pete on Apr 24, 2023 10:56:11 GMT
neilj, I know you said 'and others' but I think the disabled should always be mentioned when talking about Nazi atrocities.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Apr 24, 2023 11:01:14 GMT
neilj, I know you said 'and others' but I think the disabled should always be mentioned when talking about Nazi atrocities. Yes and also homosexuals, the point is the nazis considered them all a subhuman species so they could justify murdering them. Same way as slave owners did in the past |
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Post by wb61 on Apr 24, 2023 11:05:13 GMT
Hello all
I would recommend this book to anyone who has an interest in UK politics, it is very readable and devastating in its analysis that our entire political system is in decay, as a system, not because of political ideology but because of "politics".
How Westminster Works... and Why It Doesn't by Ian Dunt
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Post by leftieliberal on Apr 24, 2023 11:09:57 GMT
Tomiwa Owolade in New Statesman on what Diane Abbott got wrong in her Observer letter, criticising his article: www.newstatesman.com/comment/2023/04/what-diane-abbott-gets-wrong-about-racismJust a few quotes from the article: Abbott writes that the groups above “undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable.” According to the MP, prejudice and racism are not the same thing. In her view, racism is about prejudice and power. Any group can be victims of prejudice; racism only applies to groups of people who lack social, economic and political power. But this kind of reasoning is odd. How do Traveller communities have any sort of power when they have the worst educational outcomes of all ethnic minority groups in the country? And doesn’t the power and privilege framework risk playing into one of the key tropes of anti-Semitism: that Jews have too much power? ... In the infamous Mississippi Burning murders in 1964, three civil rights activists visiting Philadelphia, Mississippi, were shot then buried by the Ku Klux Klan and the local police force. One of them, James Chaney, was a black American. Two of them were Jewish: Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner. And one of the greatest acts of racial hatred in the past century – the Holocaust – is also sidelined by Abbott as she claims Jewish people and Traveller communities can’t be victims of racism. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2023 11:12:05 GMT
More on the 'changes' that Raab's (temporary?) exit might well now bring in:
"Senior Tories call for Whitehall shake-up amid fears Dominic Raab probe will leave them ‘powerless’ over staff"inews.co.uk/news/politics/tories-whitehall-dominic-raab-probe-staff-2293008?colin and jimjam have mentioned the US approach before and I'm not sure that is the 'best' approach but the current situation of some unelected civil servants blocking/frustrating policies from a democratically elected government just because they don't personally like them/the policies, needs to be changed. Raab has created the opportunity for that change. If people have examples from other countries then be curious to see how they manage policy implementation. I posted some links yesterday as a reminder that this goes back ( at least) to Blair's era. He and Reid had things to say and Blunkett criticised the Permanent Secretary set up-proposing alternatives. Blair talked more recently about it too-saying the UK CS are good "managing" the status quo , but poor at adapting to change. Blunket mention resistance to accountability. Given that most governments will have been elected to carry out the latter , Blair's distinction is a difference without a meaning. Until the bar is a low for the Civil Service Code as it is for the Ministerial Code , Whitehall & Westminster will be different planets. In the case of the Foreign Office complaint , Raab's mention of the CS Code features in Tolley's conclusions -these are relevant quotes :- "153. In addition, on a separate but closely related occasion concerned with the same subjectmatter, the DPM referred to the Civil Service Code in a way which could reasonably have been understood as suggesting that those involved had acted in breach of the Civil Service Code (and so would have been in breach of their contracts of employment). This had a significant adverse effect on a particular individual (a different person from the individual who made the FCDO Complaint), who took it seriously. The DPM’s conduct was a form of intimidating behaviour, in the sense of conveying a threat of unspecified disciplinary action. He did not target any individual, nor intend to threaten anyone with disciplinary action. However, he ought to have realised that referring in this way to the Civil Service Code could have been understood as such a threat. 154. After this (second) occasion, Sir Philip Barton told the DPM in a private and informal meeting that he should not threaten officials with reference to the Civil Service Code." ie Raab was reprimanded for mentioning the CS Code ! At least Sunak is dealing with the time issue which Tolley highlighted. These are his comments on it :- "(5) Passage of time and lack of earlier complaints 89. The DPM’s written representations made two points in this respect which to an extent I accept as well-founded. First, he referred to the length of time that had passed since the events in question and the inevitable effect on the quality of memory and his corresponding ability to respond. 90. This point was of greatest relevance in relation to the DExEU Complaint, given that the events in question related to a period between July and November 2018 and there were no available documents to assist. It was of less relevance to the FCDO Complaint because of the particular circumstances which gave rise to it and the availability of contemporaneous documents, albeit that the distance of over two years between the events and the investigation was bound to have affected the quality of recollection. 91. In this context, it is worth noting that the typical time limit for a claim in the employment tribunal is three months from the date of the matter complained of, albeit that there is a power to extend time in certain cases and a series of events may be treated as ending at its conclusion. 92. Secondly, the DPM drew attention to the lack of any contemporaneous complaint. The DPM argued that the lack of a contemporaneous complaint should be regarded as a strong indication that the conduct was not regarded at the time as giving rise to legitimate grounds for complaint. The extent to which this argument was valid depended on the specifics of each of the Complaints and I therefore deal with it in the context of each of the Complaints. The DPM made a further point, that the allegations comprised in the Complaints were not raised with him at or close to the time of the events with which the allegations are concerned. I accept that point and have acknowledged that the passage of time since the event in question may in certain respects have diminished the DPM’s ability to deal with the content of the Complaints." It will be an improvement to bring time allowed for complaints against ministers from the CS into line with what Tolley describes as the "typical " time in an employment tribunal. But it won't imo address the issues Blunkett and Blair highlighted. The balance of accountability and responsibility ; and the comparative right of complaint seems heavily skewed to me. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Apr 24, 2023 11:12:59 GMT
Hello all I would recommend this book to anyone who has an interest in UK politics, it is very readable and devastating in its analysis that our entire political system is in decay, as a system, not because of political ideology but because of "politics". How Westminster Works... and Why It Doesn't by Ian Dunt Yes, Ian Dunt is well worth reading; I have his "How to be a Liberal" |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Apr 24, 2023 12:03:07 GMT
More on the 'changes' that Raab's (temporary?) exit might well now bring in:
"Senior Tories call for Whitehall shake-up amid fears Dominic Raab probe will leave them ‘powerless’ over staff"inews.co.uk/news/politics/tories-whitehall-dominic-raab-probe-staff-2293008?colin and jimjam have mentioned the US approach before and I'm not sure that is the 'best' approach but the current situation of some unelected civil servants blocking/frustrating policies from a democratically elected government just because they don't personally like them/the policies, needs to be changed. Raab has created the opportunity for that change. If people have examples from other countries then be curious to see how they manage policy implementation. I posted some links yesterday as a reminder that this goes back ( at least) to Blair's era. He and Reid had things to say and Blunkett criticised the Permanent Secretary set up-proposing alternatives. Blair talked more recently about it too-saying the UK CS are good "managing" the status quo , but poor at adapting to change. Blunket mention resistance to accountability. Given that most governments will have been elected to carry out the latter , Blair's distinction is a difference without a meaning. Until the bar is a low for the Civil Service Code as it is for the Ministerial Code , Whitehall & Westminster will be different planets. In the case of the Foreign Office complaint , Raab's mention of the CS Code features in Tolley's conclusions -these are relevant quotes :- "153. In addition, on a separate but closely related occasion concerned with the same subjectmatter, the DPM referred to the Civil Service Code in a way which could reasonably have been understood as suggesting that those involved had acted in breach of the Civil Service Code (and so would have been in breach of their contracts of employment). This had a significant adverse effect on a particular individual (a different person from the individual who made the FCDO Complaint), who took it seriously. The DPM’s conduct was a form of intimidating behaviour, in the sense of conveying a threat of unspecified disciplinary action. He did not target any individual, nor intend to threaten anyone with disciplinary action. However, he ought to have realised that referring in this way to the Civil Service Code could have been understood as such a threat. 154. After this (second) occasion, Sir Philip Barton told the DPM in a private and informal meeting that he should not threaten officials with reference to the Civil Service Code." ie Raab was reprimanded for mentioning the CS Code ! At least Sunak is dealing with the time issue which Tolley highlighted. These are his comments on it :- "(5) Passage of time and lack of earlier complaints 89. The DPM’s written representations made two points in this respect which to an extent I accept as well-founded. First, he referred to the length of time that had passed since the events in question and the inevitable effect on the quality of memory and his corresponding ability to respond. 90. This point was of greatest relevance in relation to the DExEU Complaint, given that the events in question related to a period between July and November 2018 and there were no available documents to assist. It was of less relevance to the FCDO Complaint because of the particular circumstances which gave rise to it and the availability of contemporaneous documents, albeit that the distance of over two years between the events and the investigation was bound to have affected the quality of recollection. 91. In this context, it is worth noting that the typical time limit for a claim in the employment tribunal is three months from the date of the matter complained of, albeit that there is a power to extend time in certain cases and a series of events may be treated as ending at its conclusion. 92. Secondly, the DPM drew attention to the lack of any contemporaneous complaint. The DPM argued that the lack of a contemporaneous complaint should be regarded as a strong indication that the conduct was not regarded at the time as giving rise to legitimate grounds for complaint. The extent to which this argument was valid depended on the specifics of each of the Complaints and I therefore deal with it in the context of each of the Complaints. The DPM made a further point, that the allegations comprised in the Complaints were not raised with him at or close to the time of the events with which the allegations are concerned. I accept that point and have acknowledged that the passage of time since the event in question may in certain respects have diminished the DPM’s ability to deal with the content of the Complaints." It will be an improvement to bring time allowed for complaints against ministers from the CS into line with what Tolley describes as the "typical " time in an employment tribunal. But it won't imo address the issues Blunkett and Blair highlighted. The balance of accountability and responsibility ; and the comparative right of complaint seems heavily skewed to me. Agreed. The arch partisans are likely missing the point that reform of the Civil Service, or at least ensuring that employees are actually held accountable to specific criteria, will benefit whichever government is democratically elected. FWIU there is already a maximum 'time allowed for complaints' but Tolley allowed consideration for complaints that were beyond that time limit*. Once again, Raab's "mistake" was going "all in". Had he (or Rishi) been able to "appeal" the initial report on the basis that much of the evidence was "inadmissible" then perhaps Raab wouldn't have had to resign. However, by 'dying on the sword' there is now a window of opportunity for CON HMG to make changes. Given how long that process will take then the beneficiaries will be future democratically elected govts (eg likely a NewLABv2 govt after GE'24). * In certain situations (eg sexual/racist abuse, rape, etc) where criminal charges could be brought against an individual then a "Me Too" approach can be justified but just allowing anyone and everyone who could be convinced to say Raab was a difficult boss to work for to come forward at one time is certainly skewing the case. Whilst not my polity then the case against former SNP leader and Scottish FM was an example of a justifiable "Me Too" situation, although much of that appears to have been a 'witch hunt' as he was acquitted on all charges. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2023 12:08:33 GMT
Hello all I would recommend this book to anyone who has an interest in UK politics, it is very readable and devastating in its analysis that our entire political system is in decay, as a system, not because of political ideology but because of "politics". How Westminster Works... and Why It Doesn't by Ian Dunt Looks good. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2023 12:12:36 GMT
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on Apr 24, 2023 12:25:17 GMT
Hello all I would recommend this book to anyone who has an interest in UK politics, it is very readable and devastating in its analysis that our entire political system is in decay, as a system, not because of political ideology but because of "politics". How Westminster Works... and Why It Doesn't by Ian Dunt And discussed here:
radiopublic.com/oh-god-what-now-GMB0dr/s1!6610d April 14th, 2023•1:05:28
Britain’s Brain Drain, Dunt’s New Book and Succession Shocker
As the Government dishes out fresh lessons in doggedness – does the strike stalemate risk a brain drain for Britain? We discuss health workers ditching the UK for Australia for better money (and weather). Plus, why doesn’t Westminster work? It’s a question we all want to answer – and Ian Dunt has in his new book. And, with *major* spoiler warnings, we talk about the Succession latest. |
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Post by hireton on Apr 24, 2023 12:32:10 GMT
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Apr 24, 2023 13:01:50 GMT
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Post by John Chanin on Apr 24, 2023 13:52:28 GMT
The Prince of Wales has never been functional, and likely never will. Think what else we might have done with the thousands of millions of pounds wasted on this white elephant. |
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Post by wb61 on Apr 24, 2023 13:56:54 GMT
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Apr 24, 2023 13:57:12 GMT
I can only think remainers have infiltrated Sunak's inner circle to come up with the name 'Unicorn Kingdom' 😀
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 24, 2023 14:30:16 GMT
neilj Still waiting for my free unicorn. 
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on Apr 24, 2023 14:47:38 GMT
The Prince of Wales has never been functional, and likely never will. Think what else we might have done with the thousands of millions of pounds wasted on this white elephant. We could have built loads of houses the country is crying out for. That would help bring house prices down.
We could have paid doctors, nurses, teachers and other public sector workers a fair wage. That would mean you could actually SEE a GP.
We could have invested it in housing insulation schemes to help keep people's heating bills down. That would mean the poor would be better off.
We could have continued to subsidise renewable technologies to help develop that market. That would help the planet survive.
...
Am I close?
Or we could have given it to the Tories' mates, to augment their PPE payments? That would help, er, ...
Am I closer?
No doubt some bright spark is going to reply with tax cuts. But then there's always one...
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 24, 2023 14:56:10 GMT
Could our xenophobic regime and our racist home Secretary be remotely trusted to assess asylum seekers properly.
Rhetorical question of course they can't.
"Hundreds of asylum seeker children are wrongly being treated as adults by the Home Office, according to data from dozens of local authorities.
Responses from freedom of information requests showed that two-thirds of children – 867 out of 1,386 – deemed to be adults by the Home Office were later confirmed to be children."
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 24, 2023 15:12:14 GMT
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 24, 2023 15:17:00 GMT
Danny - "Last time the fine print explained there was no reason to think this had anything to do with covid.." It didn't. The report clearly stated that ill health was the main reason for heightened absence, and that covid was a large part of that. Stop making shit up and then lying about it. All it said was that kids were reporting as sick. There was no evidence they were actually sick rather than playing truant. Since certain groups were more affected than others, and there isnt much evidence suggesting they would have been disproportionately affected by covid, it seems very likely covid infections had nothing whatever to do with those absences. You arent really even trying to make a case any more, just throwing out insults. Though if anyone cares to look back at your posts, they will see you seldom reply in kind to a well referenced response. And you must be the poster on here who most regularly makes personal attacks on others. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 24, 2023 15:23:12 GMT
2/ Individuals who inherited wealth from slave owning families can do whatever they want and should be 'encouraged' to do so (although see below link for the risk of 'white saviour' accusations). As someone of Uk descent I must therefore be the descendant of slaves. i call upon all other UK citizens who must also be descendants of slave owners, to make me any donations they can. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 24, 2023 15:24:37 GMT
Minor incidents of discrimination against the traveller community can be seen on a daily basis.
My son currently works around his degree opposite a traveller permanent site.
It's in an industrial area and there are no other residential properties in the road at all.
For those unfamiliar with Hemel Hempstead in the residential areas there are literally thousands of cars that are parked up on grass verges and pavements, provided these don't cause obstruction there is no action taken to prevent this.
However on the grass verges opposite the caravan site where no others need to park and where no person or vehicle is obstructed the travellers vehicles and it's only their vehicles there, are ticketed often multiple times every day and are routinely towed away.
Ironically they are parked outside of a multi story car park for staff at the business where my son works.
There's absolutely no justification for this action but it's been going on daily for years.
This kind of casual racism against a maligned community probably explains why many travellers think us gorgers are dicks.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 24, 2023 15:48:56 GMT
The Prince of Wales has never been functional, and likely never will. Think what else we might have done with the thousands of millions of pounds wasted on this white elephant. When I read the first sentence my instant thought was of Charles Windsor, then I realised it was about the ship. |
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specific to LAB's "attack ads"). If LDEM have a policy then by all means share it. 
