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Post by shevii on Apr 23, 2023 15:54:14 GMT
The problem is that she didn't just get overheard in a bar or post a badly worded tweet or something, she chose to write a letter to a national newspaper and did so specifically in her role as an MP. That is a one hell of a mistake to make. I don't dislike Diane Abbott and have defended her on this forum in the past against right wing jibes that she is 'thick' - her life story is actually pretty amazing and inspiring - but she is 69 now. Probably time to quietly retire at the next election. I doubt she will get the whip back before then. the past. Half a like from me! According to her it was a first draft that got sent accidentally but in many respects a first draft is probably a more true reflection of someone's views before being made palatable for public consumption. But in terms of who was the worse I'd argue that a sort of "try being in my shoes" letter (again I'm only guessing the key point of the letter with that assumption and need to find the original article that caused her to respond in that way) is not on the same scale as verbal abusive racism to someone to their face. I don't think alcohol is an excuse either, my experience of people being drunk is that they show an exaggerated version of themselves (plenty of happy drunks as well until they pass out) but you don't show something that doesn't exist somewhere inside of you in the first place. And yes 69 is a good old age but there must be an awful lot of MPs who are even older and feel they still have something to offer. That should be her choice not the Labour Party's. |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Apr 23, 2023 15:57:11 GMT
WRT to Abbott's letter then she is perhaps unaware of the Barbary Slaves.
Remembering the Barbary Slaves: White Slaves and North African Pirateswww.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-africa/white-slaves-barbary-002171If, as you say, humans are one race then there is no such thing as a racism - simply "prejudice" and "discrimination" based on things like religion, skin colour (including the colour 'white'), nationality, gender, age, etc. The pedants and quibblers can discuss the finer technicalities but all forms of "quotas" are forms of discrimination - possibly with good intentions (hence sometimes referred to as "positive discrimination") but IMO you don't correct past wrongs with new wrongs. If they still used the 'one drop of blood' rule, then all of us non-sub-Saharan Africans would be counted as Neanderthals. Rather more serious than the Barbary pirates for Abbott's arguments, is that hardly any African slaves were actually captured by Europeans. Most were actually captured by other Africans who sold them to Europeans: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53444752In practice, slavery had been going on for centuries in Africa, but the arrival of the Europeans allowed them to sell the slaves in return for European goods, rather than just using their labour. So perhaps it should be Nigeria that is paying reparations.  IMO no one should be paying reparations for stuff that happened centuries ago - although you appear to have changed your tune (eg your previous comments supporting the Church making reparations). I agree her argument in her second paragraph was wrong. There has also been plenty of examples of white people selling white people although some "quibble" on the difference between “indentured servitude" and slavery (given the former version is 'time limited' slavery).
The claim: Irish Americans were enslaved in the Americas and treated worse than enslaved Black peopleeu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/18/fact-check-irish-were-indentured-servants-not-slaves/3198590001/I'm certainly no expert on Vikings but I noted a while back that Sweden has extreme variance on 'wealth' within it's country - a lot of which could well be traced back to slavery. Although the Swedes didn't mind which 'colour' their slaves were and none of the people they held as slaves are alive today - so IMO no need for anyone to try to trace back to c10 to see Sweden should pay them any reparations NB The c10 Swedish example being given to show how stupid it is to go back centuries to find some injustice against people who are all dead. That does not mean there are not "current" injustices caused by "current" discrimination (and as per Peston etc then I don't think there should be a 'pecking order' for different types of discrimination) PS Just to see off any "fake gotcha" efforts then past examples of discrimination can be useful examples to show why discrimination, in all its forms, should be fought. Quite clearly some past examples were much worse in both their methods and the numbers of people effected (although that doesn't seem to stop some people comparing our current UK HMG to 1930s Germany). Abbott was quite rightly pointing out how evil the slave trade was but she should have left it at that. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 23, 2023 16:01:24 GMT
It's planned that an advanced warning will sound at 7am on the 4th of May for some as a warning to vote.
Tory mobile phone holders are told to wait until their warning is received at 7am on the 5th before attending as part of the regime's vote suppression, sorry , vote security measures.
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Mr Poppy
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Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
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Post by Mr Poppy on Apr 23, 2023 16:15:31 GMT
The problem is that she didn't just get overheard in a bar or post a badly worded tweet or something, she chose to write a letter to a national newspaper and did so specifically in her role as an MP. That is a one hell of a mistake to make. I don't dislike Diane Abbott and have defended her on this forum in the past against right wing jibes that she is 'thick' - her life story is actually pretty amazing and inspiring - but she is 69 now. Probably time to quietly retire at the next election. I doubt she will get the whip back before then. the past. Half a like from me! According to her it was a first draft that got sent accidentally but in many respects a first draft is probably a more true reflection of someone's views before being made palatable for public consumption. But in terms of who was the worse I'd argue that a sort of "try being in my shoes" letter (again I'm only guessing the key point of the letter with that assumption and need to find the original article that caused her to respond in that way) is not on the same scale as verbal abusive racism to someone to their face. I don't think alcohol is an excuse either, my experience of people being drunk is that they show an exaggerated version of themselves (plenty of happy drunks as well until they pass out) but you don't show something that doesn't exist somewhere inside of you in the first place. And yes 69 is a good old age but there must be an awful lot of MPs who are even older and feel they still have something to offer. That should be her choice not the Labour Party's. Just FWIW then
"Due to the Equality Act, age discrimination is against the law, in almost all cases"
www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/work-learning/discrimination-rights/the-equality-act/The full list being: "The Equality Act applies to discrimination based on:AgeRaceSexGender reassignmentDisabilityReligion or beliefSexual orientationMarriage or civil partnershipPregnancy and maternity"Although political views isn't specifically mentioned so politicians can be "attacked" for their political views (provided it is their actual views and not the made up stuff that the 'genuises' in LAB HQ have been using to attack our British-Asian PM and his family) |
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Post by Mark on Apr 23, 2023 17:32:12 GMT
@merican unintentionally made an interesting point with his comment about "is it really that bad" because it highlights that for many comfortably off Tories it probably hasn't been bad at all while for an awful lot of people it's been absolutely dreadful. So I do wonder where the dividing line on comfortably off or struggling cuts off. Thatcher kept winning in the 1980's because she had enough voters to counter those voters trapped by rising unemployment and decimated industry. Are there enough inflation proofed or high income (where inflation is less of an issue and maybe even real pay/pensions are not dropping) left that the Tories do have enough voters all other things being equal? I doubt it and NHS to my mind is a key issue that affects them as well but who knows.... The name is 'mercian' by the way. I resent being tarnished with being from the other side of the Atlantic 🤩 So who's 'it' been dreadful for? I talk to quite a few people of different classes and ages, and haven't heard anyone complaining about the current situation apart from the occasional whinge about petrol prices (now coming down) or food inflation in the shops. If you've got any actual evidence that "...for an awful lot of people it's been absolutely dreadful." I'd be interested to see it. Part of the problem (IMO) is that the last 13 years have been extremely prosperous and stable compared to most of history, and now that there's a slight problem with inflation many people are too young to remember harder times when we just got on with it. I strongly disagree with this. While it's true that we have had high inflation before and we have had economic socks before, this time, it's a little different. To explain why, I will use two music related scenarios. Back in the 1970's, due to the oil crisis, the price of vinyl virtually doubled overnight. Incidentally, this was the reason for the glut of greatest hits, best of's and soundtrack albums at the time,with the record companies putting out albums that had zero recording costs to claw back some of the lost revenue. Fewer people were now buyig vinyl. The real music fans who prioritised it above pretty much everything else still were, but, much less so the ordiary man in the street. There is also a correlation with more leftfield artists doing, relaively speaking, well, but, that is another story. ...and yes, everything was going up, but, with at least parity accross the economy. Fast forward to now. I bought the new Belle & Sebastian C a while ago (if I'm honest, I think they've gone off the boila bit comapred to their utterly awesome early work, but, again another story). It was exactly the same price as the previous album, a few years earlier. Inflation : 0%. Meanwhile, essentials, in particularly food, is going up by eye-watering amounts. Some food items in my shop going up 30% compared to a coulpe of months ago. The lower end product, the value/basics ranges are going up faster than everything else. So, it is not like previous hard times where people had to cut back. This time, it is stomachs being primarily hit. |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Apr 23, 2023 17:51:03 GMT
I'm rather enjoying Angus Robertson demonstrating that foreign governments are disobeying Cleverly's orders to them, not to meet with SNP Ministers.
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 23, 2023 19:10:44 GMT
Just as a fact check Rachel Swindon mentioned by the Trevor confederation has a long and consistent record of slagging off Starmer and is according to one of Trevor's favoured sites Guido fawkes a " Corbyn superfan social media account of dubious provenance" her real name is Rachel Cousins and she has never repeat never criticised serial failure Corbyn or given any credit tothe sustained substantial lead for Labour under Starmer or offered any support for the current Labour leadership.
I mean I'm not a Labour party member or supporter and yet I haven't the same morbid fear of reality shared by this far left Twitterer.
Perfect reference for the Trevors utterly irrelevant to any one else.
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on Apr 23, 2023 19:34:39 GMT
I didn’t get an alert, but my partner did. We were both napping at the time. Here, out of three phones, two went off. Interestingly though the one that didnt go off, also didnt have the menu options to switch off alerts. Is this some sort of software issue? anyone know why this is patchy and is it part of what was being tested? It's a feature of the network. Nothing to do with the software on your phone but the radio technology used to make mobiles work. You don't need to know the number on the phone, it just needs to be connected to your local mast. You therefore need a SIM card in the phone. If your phone has no SIM card but is connected to the Internet via wifi it won't get the alert.
I read somewhere it only works on 4G or 5G. So if your network is not good enough for 4G and fails back to 3G it may not work.
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Post by johntel on Apr 23, 2023 19:44:45 GMT
Here, out of three phones, two went off. Interestingly though the one that didnt go off, also didnt have the menu options to switch off alerts. Is this some sort of software issue? anyone know why this is patchy and is it part of what was being tested? It's a feature of the network. Nothing to do with the software on your phone but the radio technology used to make mobiles work. You don't need to know the number on the phone, it just needs to be connected to your local mast. You therefore need a SIM card in the phone. If your phone has no SIM card but is connected to the Internet via wifi it won't get the alert.
I read somewhere it only works on 4G or 5G. So if your network is not good enough for 4G and fails back to 3G it may not work.
My phone didn't get the alert despite having a strong signal and data working fine for accessing the internet. The other people I was with all received it at the same time, except for one who didn't get it until 15 minutes after the others. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Apr 23, 2023 19:50:12 GMT
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Apr 23, 2023 20:04:55 GMT
It's a feature of the network. Nothing to do with the software on your phone but the radio technology used to make mobiles work. You don't need to know the number on the phone, it just needs to be connected to your local mast. You therefore need a SIM card in the phone. If your phone has no SIM card but is connected to the Internet via wifi it won't get the alert.
I read somewhere it only works on 4G or 5G. So if your network is not good enough for 4G and fails back to 3G it may not work.
My phone didn't get the alert despite having a strong signal and data working fine for accessing the internet. The other people I was with all received it at the same time, except for one who didn't get it until 15 minutes after the others. I was in a theatre watching Frozen, and the staff made it very clear beforehand and in the interval that everyone needed to make sure their phones were completely turned off. I'm never entirely convinced my phone is turned off so was slightly nervous but it behaved. Inevitably, in a packed house some people, somehow wouldn't get the memo so bang on three some phones did indeed go off but in anticipation they managed to stage the proceedings so that that was the exact moment Olaf the snowman accidentally sets his twig arm on fire and so he was able to make a droll, apparently ad-libbed remark about the fire alarm going off. Got a very appreciative laugh as they had threatened to stop proceedings if anyone's phone went off. |
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Post by ptarmigan on Apr 23, 2023 20:18:39 GMT
I've always had a fair bit of time for Diane Abbott. As a black female left-wing MP she's subject to such a disproportionate amount of abuse and she clearly has significant lived experience of racism, but the comments she's been sanctioned for really are inexcusable and extremely disappointing. It's really difficult to understand what she was thinking when sending that letter to a national newspaper, although it's welcome that she swiftly apologised. I'm sure Starmer didn't need much persuading but it's absolutely the right decision to suspend the whip.
The arguments that she should be kicked out permanently do seem a little opportunistic though. Agree with shevii that it would potentially look like double standards - as well as Coyle, Rupa Huq's also back in the Labour fold having been embroiled in a racism storm. It was only last month that Martin Forde claimed that, since his report, Labour still hasn't engaged with his claims that the party is "operating a hierarchy of racism" in which "anti-black racism and Islamophobia is not taken as seriously as antisemitism" (ironically, it feels like the idea of a "hierarchy" is effectively the same sort of thing that Abbott has fallen foul of with her comments). For that reason, I'm not sure the optics would be great if they looked to permanently exclude her.
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on Apr 23, 2023 20:30:20 GMT
My phone didn't get the alert despite having a strong signal and data working fine for accessing the internet. The other people I was with all received it at the same time, except for one who didn't get it until 15 minutes after the others. I was watching snooker earlier, and they stopped for the 15:00 alert. Once they started again, one phone went off at 15:15. Wierd. What I know I've learned today from the comments here: forums.theregister.com/forum/1/2023/04/21/florida_emergency_alert/ |
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Post by johntel on Apr 23, 2023 20:58:19 GMT
My phone didn't get the alert despite having a strong signal and data working fine for accessing the internet. The other people I was with all received it at the same time, except for one who didn't get it until 15 minutes after the others. I was watching snooker earlier, and they stopped for the 15:00 alert. Once they started again, one phone went off at 15:15. Wierd. What I know I've learned today from the comments here: forums.theregister.com/forum/1/2023/04/21/florida_emergency_alert/And why was it an American accent? People would be more likely to take notice if it was a Russian accent. |
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Post by alec on Apr 23, 2023 21:00:32 GMT
ptarmigan - I would also be sad to see Abbott go. She has been one of the (very) few MPs who have taken a stand on the threat to working people and the disadvantaged from covid. It's a very unfashionable stance to take.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Apr 23, 2023 21:11:03 GMT
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Post by alec on Apr 23, 2023 21:14:59 GMT
It's almost fun to watch the mental gymnastics some education leaders are having to go through to explain high absence levels in children after they agreed to let a novel virus rip in schools without any protections or mitigations - www.theguardian.com/education/2023/apr/23/rise-in-school-absences-since-covid-driven-by-anxiety-and-lack-of-support-say-english-councilsThis is a typical victim blaming piece, and ignores the overwhelming evidence that getting sick makes you, er, sick. There is a huge blind spot here, with education leaders failing to keep abreast of the science, which is increasingly clear that if you catch covid, you are far more likely to have longer term symptoms than the few days off sick on the acute phase, and you are also far more likely to suffer from a range of other illnesses in the weeks and months after covid. The initial excuse was that this was all down to catching up with the immunity debt caused by lockdowns, but as another term rolls by with record absences, a new excuse is needed. Cue mental health being wheeled out, cause by - of course - the pandemic response. They don't even mention the fact that there is a settled scientific consensus that one of the post infection impacts of covid is deterioration of mental health, with anxiety being the most common manifestation. So, so tiresome. |
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Post by mercian on Apr 23, 2023 21:54:21 GMT
I think you've revealed one of the real problems. No sure whether you meant this, but your statement implies that criticism of a civil servant by a politician doesn't affect the civil servant's career. i.e. It's a job for life however useless they are. ... EDIT - Having reread my post I can see how you might have misunderstood this sentence. That is partly because of the rule of impartiality set on civil servants and partly because any public criticism of politicians is likely to affect their future careers.I meant that criticism by civil servants of politicians is likely to affect the civil servant's career. I've never heard of a case where a civil servant has criticised a politician and it has affected the politician's career. Thanks for the clarification. I misinterpreted your statement because of course Raab's career has just been affected. |
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Post by mercian on Apr 23, 2023 21:59:32 GMT
Good luck, just for today to David Linden SNP and Paul Scully Tory who are both running in today's London Marathon to raise funds for very worthwhile charities. Also Sarah Champion Labour MP for Rotherham has been reunited with her cat after 10 weeks missing ( The cat not Champion), In missing mp news Spaffer is enjoying yet another freebie luxury holiday while parliament is in session. You would have thought after pocketing millions drivelling on to rich drunk American republicans he might consider paying himself. But that's not disgraced wannabe world kings way. So if you had a rich pal who offered you a free holiday I suppose you'd turn it down or insist on paying? 🤣 |
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Post by mercian on Apr 23, 2023 22:04:01 GMT
One last thought; perhaps the problems in this country are less around the inability of the civil servants to deliver, rather than the appallingly low calibre of the politicians we've had telling them what to do? ... I thought David Blunkett high calibre. In 2008 in an article for Political Quarterly, Blunkett is highly critical of the Labour party's record in failing to tackle the civil service since it has been in power and warns that ministers are suffering from "rubber lever syndrome" –"The home secretary, or ministers responsible for health and education or environment, food and rural affairs (where management and delivery have been catastrophic) find themselves falling by the wayside, while those actually responsible for the day-to-day bungling, and for inadequate policy advice, continue apace."-"Ministers should have the same power to choose from a list of people to be their chief private secretary to appoint a new permanent and deputy secretaries and the chairs of appointment commissions. While it would be wrong to go as far as Barack Obama and make thousands of political appointments, there is a case for ministers to have powers to appoint the most senior people. At present, the very title permanent secretary says it all: I'm permanent and you are not." ... Yes. Even The Blessed Margaret didn't have much impact on the Civil Service. |
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Post by mercian on Apr 23, 2023 22:08:27 GMT
You're not going to like this, but it is a disease primarily of gay men in this country because sexual transmission is much easier in the rear orifice than the front. It's to do with the thickness of the lining. The reason that it became a common heterosexual disease in Africa was because rear-entry is used as a form of contraception. Don't ask me how I know this.  I did read a paper which argued being circumcised reduced your chances of being infected. Wasnt impressed by it, as it was based upon a small self selecting sample whose sexual practices were bound up with the treatment they were receiving. I dont recall exactly, something about people having been circumcised were then ordered not to have sex, and then didnt catch as much HIV during the study period? Dont recall any mention of exactly what sort of sex it was either. Although what you suggest makes sense, I dont recall it being raised officially at the time. We do however still have the problem as with covid and masks, that even if you make something x10 safer, its still a significant risk over time. In particular some people have far more sex with far more partners than others, and are thus considered very important to reach for disease control. Similarly, the tendency for mass spread events with covid amongst people on holiday. Of course it wasn't mentioned officially. Politicians terrified of the 'gay' lobby, just as they are of the trans lobby now for some reason. |
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Post by mercian on Apr 23, 2023 22:18:38 GMT
Re victim blaming the civil service. In our org there is a list of behaviours to help managers identify low performance. Two of the key ones are arguing and giving excuses when confronted with challenging feedback and seeking to blame others for negative outcomes. Looks like Raab and in fact the entire govt fulfill that criteria.. Pedantry alert: Should be fulfil those criteria. Criteria being the plural of criterion of course. When I was at school any essay making such a mistake would automatically score 0. |
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Post by mercian on Apr 23, 2023 22:22:40 GMT
I don't see the current Tory party as fully committed to liberal democracy and it is awash with dark money and influence from US far right sources. Remember the next Tory leader is likely to be Braverman or Badenoch. I thought it was supposed to be the Russians? Or maybe the Chinese? |
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Post by mercian on Apr 23, 2023 22:26:06 GMT
I read her letter, and like Livingstone's remark about Hitler negotiating with the Jews, it is actually true. In terms of this country nowadays at least, except perhaps amongst the Moslem community. |
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Post by mercian on Apr 23, 2023 22:44:42 GMT
There is no such thing as different races of homo sapiens; this is scientific racism, which grew out of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution and which spawned eugenics (founded by his half-cousin Francis Galton). In the heyday of eugenics at the end of the 19th Century and the early part of the 20th Century, even working-class native Britons were seen as a different race by some in the middle and upper-classes. Where do you think that H G Wells' Eloi and Morlocks came from? Galton was an old boy of my school. I have a British encyclopaedia from the 1930s with several articles about eugenics . In my opinion it's a jolly good idea. As we have bred better livestock and crops by artificial selection why shouldn't we do the same for humanity? It all depends on the methods used of course. Encouragement rather than enforcement should be the way. One recent policy which could be seen as 'eugenics-lite' is limiting Child Allowance or whatever it's called, to the first two children. This will not affect the wealthy much but might discourage some feckless poor people from breeding too much. By the way, I usually get a laugh with my opinion that Hitler got eugenics a bad name. |
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Post by mercian on Apr 23, 2023 22:55:38 GMT
Meanwhile, Starmer (or at least his idiot media team) seem to think Glasgow's Finnieston Crane and Buchanan St are in England. Perhaps his map of GB ls largely blank in its northern realm with the message "Here be dragons". Really laying the patriotism on thick! Trying to make Labour acceptable to irascible old pensioners like me. I bet he didn't go back to that pub where the owner kicked him and his team out 🤣 |
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Post by mercian on Apr 23, 2023 23:01:11 GMT
If they still used the 'one drop of blood' rule, then all of us non-sub-Saharan Africans would be counted as Neanderthals. Rather more serious than the Barbary pirates for Abbott's arguments, is that hardly any African slaves were actually captured by Europeans. Most were actually captured by other Africans who sold them to Europeans: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53444752In practice, slavery had been going on for centuries in Africa, but the arrival of the Europeans allowed them to sell the slaves in return for European goods, rather than just using their labour. So perhaps it should be Nigeria that is paying reparations. Yes, when Hawkins first went to Africa trading stuff like axes, cloth and so on, he asked what can you give us in exchange? The answer was slaves. Also, last time this subject came up I did a bit of research and discovered that in Ethiopia (the only uncolonised African country) in the 1930s there were still 2 million slaves. |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Apr 23, 2023 23:04:35 GMT
So if you had a rich pal who offered you a free holiday I suppose you'd turn it down or insist on paying? 🤣 |
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Post by mercian on Apr 23, 2023 23:08:41 GMT
I'm rather enjoying Angus Robertson demonstrating that foreign governments are disobeying Cleverly's orders to them, not to meet with SNP Ministers. Good to see that Scots are helping to improve UK trade. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Apr 23, 2023 23:19:20 GMT
I'm rather enjoying Angus Robertson demonstrating that foreign governments are disobeying Cleverly's orders to them, not to meet with SNP Ministers. Good to see that Scots are helping to improve UK trade. |
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