oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Apr 23, 2023 12:03:43 GMT
Have a good day, England.
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 23, 2023 12:08:40 GMT
I can't find the actual letter. This is the actual letter: Racism is black and white "Tomiwa Owolade claims that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people all suffer from “racism” (“Racism in Britain is not a black and white issue. It’s far more complicated”, Comment). They undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable. It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism. In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus. In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote. And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships. Diane Abbott House of Commons, London SW1" |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 23, 2023 12:10:14 GMT
Speaking as someone who is both Irish and Roma, the Roma side of my family having fled from fascism in the 30s while also pretending not to be Roma in order to cross borders to safety, Abbot can disappear up her own arse. I think you will get your wish. |
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Post by hireton on Apr 23, 2023 12:30:57 GMT
Re Civil Service reform, alec has already pointed to the difgicultiess of transferring parts of one system to another without looking at the whole systems. Re political appointments, it's also worth remembering that in government systems where these are used there also tend to be far fewer Ministers. Are any Tory or Labour MPs queuing up to radically reduce their prospects of getting a Ministerial appointment? I wonder. It's also worth remembering Ministerial churn and how that has been getting worse. As examples 7 UK Education Secretaries, 6 Channcellors and 6 Home Secretaries ( although one of those is the same person) in 6 years. Should the departmental top Civil Servants have been changed each time? Will Ministerial political appointments be subject to parliamentary scrutiny and approval? If people want some sensible ideas regarding CS reform I suggest looking at the Institute for Government. Overall, Raab's fulminations like those of Truss are simply an extension of the culture war which is all the Tory Party seems to have left to offer. |
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Post by barbara on Apr 23, 2023 12:36:43 GMT
Hopefully, no one on this board is a victim of domestic abuse - but this is worth sharing - Shared on Facebook. Thanks for this. |
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Post by JohnC on Apr 23, 2023 12:44:49 GMT
Apart from the obvious inhumanity in the way that prescription charges can work in England (nowhere else in the UK has them), does anyone know how much of the revenue raised is swallowed up by administration costs?
When they were abolished in Wales, then NI, then Scotland it was argued that the administration costs meant that little net funding for patient care was released - but I haven't seen whether that is true or not. Not that it matters much to me, as providing free prescriptions to all is "a good thing".
"Woman who miscarried fined by NHS for claiming free prescription while pregnant"
www.theguardian.com/society/2023/apr/22/woman-who-miscarried-fined-by-nhs-for-claiming-free-prescription-while-pregnant?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other Is it really a "good thing"? There is no doubt that things that are free are not valued or are wasted. Here in Wales, people go for everything on prescription, even toothpaste believe it or not. Not only does this cost but having a doctors appointment to get something like free paracetomol wastes doctors time. I dont know whether it is still the same but the old French system under which you paid a proportion of the cost of the medicine and then claimed it back. At least this did tell the ill person what the cost of the medicines were.
When my mother dies we had a 12" cubic cardboard box completely full of usused medicines, most all untouched, and which had to be thrown away because the chemists wouldnt take them back.
Once medicines leave the pharmacy they cannot be reused but unused medicines can be taken to a pharmacy for safe disposal. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Apr 23, 2023 12:57:05 GMT
Context added: I think Abbott was foolish straying into such territory in the manner she adopted, especially following Labour's recent troubles, even though what she said was technically accurate. O must say that I am disappointed in you alec what Abbott was clearly saying was that racism only applies to 'white' people against 'black' people (however you like to define the words in quotes). By her own definition 'black' people cannot be racist even when they express exactly the same views in exactly the same words which if expressed by a 'white' person she would say are racist. By talking about the 'back of the bus' she totally ignores the anti-Jewish quotas in American Universities which lasted rather longer than segregation in the Southern States of the USA. The truth, which she chooses to reject, is that anyone can be racist. There is no such thing as different races of homo sapiens; this is scientific racism, which grew out of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution and which spawned eugenics (founded by his half-cousin Francis Galton). In the heyday of eugenics at the end of the 19th Century and the early part of the 20th Century, even working-class native Britons were seen as a different race by some in the middle and upper-classes. Where do you think that H G Wells' Eloi and Morlocks came from? Tomiwa Owolade's article in The Observer www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/15/racism-in-britain-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue-it-is-far-more-complicatedis a balanced attempt to move the argument on from the simplistic black-and-white views of Abbott; but then she is quite used to hypocrisy having sent her son to a private school. |
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Post by graham on Apr 23, 2023 13:13:05 GMT
Apartheid South Africa was essentially an example of colour prejudice rather than racism per se. As long as a person was white his/her race did not matter. Ditto re- prejudice in the American South. Rather the opposite of what Abbott was implying.
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Apr 23, 2023 13:39:49 GMT
Context added: I think Abbott was foolish straying into such territory in the manner she adopted, especially following Labour's recent troubles, even though what she said was technically accurate. O must say that I am disappointed in you alec what Abbott was clearly saying was that racism only applies to 'white' people against 'black' people (however you like to define the words in quotes). By her own definition 'black' people cannot be racist even when they express exactly the same views in exactly the same words which if expressed by a 'white' person she would say are racist. By talking about the 'back of the bus' she totally ignores the anti-Jewish quotas in American Universities which lasted rather longer than segregation in the Southern States of the USA. The truth, which she chooses to reject, is that anyone can be racist. There is no such thing as different races of homo sapiens; this is scientific racism, which grew out of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution and which spawned eugenics (founded by his half-cousin Francis Galton). In the heyday of eugenics at the end of the 19th Century and the early part of the 20th Century, even working-class native Britons were seen as a different race by some in the middle and upper-classes. Where do you think that H G Wells' Eloi and Morlocks came from? Tomiwa Owolade's article in The Observer www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/15/racism-in-britain-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue-it-is-far-more-complicatedis a balanced attempt to move the argument on from the simplistic black-and-white views of Abbott; but then she is quite used to hypocrisy having sent her son to a private school. !?! Careful... Abbott was trying to "quibble" a definition and got herself into trouble by doing so. WRT to Abbott's letter then she is perhaps unaware of the Barbary Slaves.
Remembering the Barbary Slaves: White Slaves and North African Pirateswww.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-africa/white-slaves-barbary-002171No one is alive today who was a victim of slavery from centuries ago so IMO folks need to move on from the past. However, WRT to your comment about "quotas" at American Universities then they've come back recently: collegecliffs.com/college-quotas-based-on-race/They also now exist in areas such as UK Armed Forces :
"RAF chief admits mistakes over 'discrimination' against white men"news.sky.com/story/raf-chief-admits-mistakes-over-discrimination-against-white-men-12800895If, as you say, humans are one race then there is no such thing as a racism - simply "prejudice" and "discrimination" based on things like religion, skin colour (including the colour 'white'), nationality, gender, age, etc. The pedants and quibblers can discuss the finer technicalities but all forms of "quotas" are forms of discrimination - possibly with good intentions (hence sometimes referred to as "positive discrimination") but IMO you don't correct past wrongs with new wrongs. |
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Post by catfuzz on Apr 23, 2023 14:10:16 GMT
I didn’t get an alert, but my partner did. We were both napping at the time.
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 23, 2023 14:11:21 GMT
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 23, 2023 14:15:26 GMT
Well that was underwhelming  |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Apr 23, 2023 14:32:32 GMT
I didn’t get an alert, but my partner did. We were both napping at the time. Was it a catnap? I didn't know cats had phones  |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Apr 23, 2023 14:37:46 GMT
The Corbynista twitterati don't seem to have decided whether or not to take a stance WRT to Abbott yet* but nice piece on Sir Keith Stalin from the self-describing: "“The Woman Leading Corbyn’s Twitter Army”. I'd quibble if there is anything "new" in her "new" piece and given the relatively low %s of LAB'19 who have moved to DK/WNV/Other then clearly her type is a fairly small minority - for now at least.
* Seem to have 'accepted her apology' (see next post) which is fair enough IMO. She was very clumsy and made mistakes in her knowledge of history but quite clearly Starmer-LAB have an agenda to purge anyone and everyone on the 'Left' of LAB. Where are the 'Real' Labour people who should be attacking Starmer for what is clearly discrimination against LW LAB MPs. Some might even go as far as to say Starmer is a bully (given the bar for being called a bully is set so very low these days)
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Apr 23, 2023 14:42:12 GMT
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Post by shevii on Apr 23, 2023 14:49:50 GMT
alec I've no idea what she intended to say but given that she's apologised for saying it it's difficult to know. I'm also struggling to understand the point she was making. Whatever it was it was indefensible. My best guess is she was making some sort of point about racism towards blacks (and asians) being worse than towards other minorities (Jews and travellers) and also some sort of definition of "race" which just seems random. It felt a bit like putting a pecking order on racism as to who has it worse when we should simply be opposing all forms of discrimination. Whatever her point it was wrong and wrongly worded. I am concerned though at the pile on. Peston puts it well: "Diane Abbot has suffered much racist abuse in her life. It is important to accept her apology in a spirit of kindness and understanding. All racism and discrimination, against whichever ethnicities, faiths and communities, is just wrong" So I think Labour would be right to suspend her for a time limited period as you can't go around saying these sorts of things without some sanction, even with an apology prior to the whip being withdrawn. But if people are arguing she should be thrown out of the party then there are double standards going on. Neil Coyle has said he's been readmitted to the party despite racist comments to a journalist- alcoholism being the excuse. Tons of others examples of MPs making inappropriate comments on all manner of subjects, yet because it's Diane Abbott it's headline news and people are clamouring for her scalp. For the most part a public image has been created about her precisely because she is black and a racist target, so she becomes a much more high profile MP to be attacked than many others with not dissimilar politics or competencies. Getting her sums wrong grabs the headlines, other MPs doing the same thing doesn't and it's the same with today's headlines. None of this is an excuse for her comments, just that the punishment should fit the crime. |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Apr 23, 2023 14:56:14 GMT
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 23, 2023 15:02:11 GMT
She gets into this mess because she has two deep seated prejudices of her own :- Jews shouldn't get any sympathy because of their treatment of the Palestinians . and All people with non-white skin colour receive prejudice and discrimination. No idea what she actually said, but obviously jews in the state of israel deserve less sympathy because of their treatment of palestinians, and this undoubtedly compromises the case of jews in general to be treated as an oppressed minority. In general people of the non majority skin colour do receive prejudice and discrimination. While whites tend to come out top in the UK, the reverse may be true elsewhere. Its a majority v. minority thing and seems to be a human survival trait. Normally though this is whipped up by some or other interest group for political purposes, but that is very normal and certainly a trick currently being used by the British government (as the nazi government did with mainly Jews as its target back in the day). |
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Post by graham on Apr 23, 2023 15:06:25 GMT
She gets into this mess because she has two deep seated prejudices of her own :- Jews shouldn't get any sympathy because of their treatment of the Palestinians . and All people with non-white skin colour receive prejudice and discrimination. No idea what she actually said, but obviously jews in the state of israel deserve less sympathy because of their treatment of palestinians, and this undoubtedly compromises the case of jews in general to be treated as an oppressed minority. In general people of the non majority skin colour do receive prejudice and discrimination. While whites tend to come out top in the UK, the reverse may be true elsewhere. Its a majority v. minority thing and seems to be a human survival trait. Normally though this is whipped up by some or other interest group for political purposes, but that is very normal and certainly a trick currently being used by the British government (as the nazi government did with mainly Jews as its target back in the day). What happened in Apartheid South Africa - and again in Rhodesia - can hardly be explained in terms of being 'a majority v minority thing.' |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 23, 2023 15:07:35 GMT
I didn’t get an alert, but my partner did. We were both napping at the time. Here, out of three phones, two went off. Interestingly though the one that didnt go off, also didnt have the menu options to switch off alerts. Is this some sort of software issue? anyone know why this is patchy and is it part of what was being tested? |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 23, 2023 15:08:18 GMT
alec I've no idea what she intended to say but given that she's apologised for saying it it's difficult to know. So I think Labour would be right to suspend her for a time limited period as you can't go around saying these sorts of things without some sanction, even with an apology prior to the whip being withdrawn. But if people are arguing she should be thrown out of the party then there are double standards going on. Neil Coyle has said he's been readmitted to the party despite racist comments to a journalist- alcoholism being the excuse. Tons of others examples of MPs making inappropriate comments on all manner of subjects, yet because it's Diane Abbott it's headline news and people are clamouring for her scalp. For the most part a public image has been created about her precisely because she is black and a racist target, so she becomes a much more high profile MP to be attacked than many others with not dissimilar politics or competencies. Getting her sums wrong grabs the headlines, other MPs doing the same thing doesn't and it's the same with today's headlines. None of this is an excuse for her comments, just that the punishment should fit the crime. The problem is that she didn't just get overheard in a bar or post a badly worded tweet or something, she chose to write a letter to a national newspaper and did so specifically in her role as an MP. That is a one hell of a mistake to make. I don't dislike Diane Abbott and have defended her on this forum in the past against right wing jibes that she is 'thick' - her life story is actually pretty amazing and inspiring - but she is 69 now. Probably time to quietly retire at the next election. I doubt she will get the whip back before then. Edit: I notice Warne 'liked' shevii's post. Astonishing hypocrisy given some of the stuff he has posted about Abbott in the past. |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Apr 23, 2023 15:09:39 GMT
Meanwhile, Starmer (or at least his idiot media team) seem to think Glasgow's Finnieston Crane and Buchanan St are in England. Perhaps his map of GB ls largely blank in its northern realm with the message "Here be dragons".
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 23, 2023 15:16:14 GMT
Where are the 'Real' Labour people who should be attacking Starmer for what is clearly discrimination against LW LAB MPs. Some might even go as far as to say Starmer is a bully (given the bar for being called a bully is set so very low these days) The Trevors seem to have directed most of their attacks against succesive labour leaders, none of whom can satisfy you. However, you have also attacked enough conservative leaders to wonder whether the consortium is in fact funded by the Russians, with the aim simply of undermining Uk confidence in any political parties and thereby destablising the state. You dont seem to actually support anyone. |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Apr 23, 2023 15:23:55 GMT
alec I've no idea what she intended to say but given that she's apologised for saying it it's difficult to know. I'm also struggling to understand the point she was making. Whatever it was it was indefensible. My best guess is she was making some sort of point about racism towards blacks (and asians) being worse than towards other minorities (Jews and travellers) and also some sort of definition of "race" which just seems random. It felt a bit like putting a pecking order on racism as to who has it worse when we should simply be opposing all forms of discrimination. Whatever her point it was wrong and wrongly worded. I am concerned though at the pile on. Peston puts it well: "Diane Abbot has suffered much racist abuse in her life. It is important to accept her apology in a spirit of kindness and understanding. All racism and discrimination, against whichever ethnicities, faiths and communities, is just wrong" So I think Labour would be right to suspend her for a time limited period as you can't go around saying these sorts of things without some sanction, even with an apology prior to the whip being withdrawn. But if people are arguing she should be thrown out of the party then there are double standards going on. Neil Coyle has said he's been readmitted to the party despite racist comments to a journalist- alcoholism being the excuse. Tons of others examples of MPs making inappropriate comments on all manner of subjects, yet because it's Diane Abbott it's headline news and people are clamouring for her scalp. For the most part a public image has been created about her precisely because she is black and a racist target, so she becomes a much more high profile MP to be attacked than many others with not dissimilar politics or competencies. Getting her sums wrong grabs the headlines, other MPs doing the same thing doesn't and it's the same with today's headlines. None of this is an excuse for her comments, just that the punishment should fit the crime. Whilst I agree with most of your post then do you have anything to substantiate her being attacked because she was black - rather then her historic views on MI5, NATO, etc being the reason her political views were attacked. Pretty sure white males like Corbyn (who nearly become PM) were attacked with similar intensity to Abbott (who nearly became H.Sec). Although given Starmer-LAB have decided to attack our British-Asian PM in a way that he never attacked the white male (Boris) or white female (Truss) then perhaps racism (or discrimination based on colour/ethnicity) is part of NewLABv2? Perhaps that is why likes of Coyle and Streeting get a "free pass" for their comments? |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 23, 2023 15:24:23 GMT
Where are the 'Real' Labour people who should be attacking Starmer for what is clearly discrimination against LW LAB MPs. Some might even go as far as to say Starmer is a bully (given the bar for being called a bully is set so very low these days) The Trevors seem to have directed most of their attacks against succesive labour leaders, none of whom can satisfy you. However, you have also attacked enough conservative leaders to wonder whether the consortium is in fact funded by the Russians, with the aim simply of undermining Uk confidence in any political parties and thereby destablising the state. You dont seem to actually support anyone. Oh, he loves 'Rishi'. All the stuff about Labour is just to stir up trouble. |
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neilj
Member
Posts: 6,390
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Post by neilj on Apr 23, 2023 15:38:39 GMT
Re Abbott, she was badly mistaken to try and differentiate between different levels of racism/discrimination between black/asian groups and others, including Jewish groups
But then to go on and put discrimination against Jewish people on the same level as people with red hair, for example, was particularly foolish
What is worthy of note is that Labour took swift action, unlike the tories, who still haven't even started an investigation on what Braverman has said, let alone suspended her
More evidence of Sunak's weakness
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Post by leftieliberal on Apr 23, 2023 15:39:31 GMT
O must say that I am disappointed in you alec what Abbott was clearly saying was that racism only applies to 'white' people against 'black' people (however you like to define the words in quotes). By her own definition 'black' people cannot be racist even when they express exactly the same views in exactly the same words which if expressed by a 'white' person she would say are racist. By talking about the 'back of the bus' she totally ignores the anti-Jewish quotas in American Universities which lasted rather longer than segregation in the Southern States of the USA. The truth, which she chooses to reject, is that anyone can be racist. There is no such thing as different races of homo sapiens; this is scientific racism, which grew out of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution and which spawned eugenics (founded by his half-cousin Francis Galton). In the heyday of eugenics at the end of the 19th Century and the early part of the 20th Century, even working-class native Britons were seen as a different race by some in the middle and upper-classes. Where do you think that H G Wells' Eloi and Morlocks came from? Tomiwa Owolade's article in The Observer www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/15/racism-in-britain-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue-it-is-far-more-complicatedis a balanced attempt to move the argument on from the simplistic black-and-white views of Abbott; but then she is quite used to hypocrisy having sent her son to a private school. WRT to Abbott's letter then she is perhaps unaware of the Barbary Slaves.
Remembering the Barbary Slaves: White Slaves and North African Pirateswww.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-africa/white-slaves-barbary-002171If, as you say, humans are one race then there is no such thing as a racism - simply "prejudice" and "discrimination" based on things like religion, skin colour (including the colour 'white'), nationality, gender, age, etc. The pedants and quibblers can discuss the finer technicalities but all forms of "quotas" are forms of discrimination - possibly with good intentions (hence sometimes referred to as "positive discrimination") but IMO you don't correct past wrongs with new wrongs. If they still used the 'one drop of blood' rule, then all of us non-sub-Saharan Africans would be counted as Neanderthals. Rather more serious than the Barbary pirates for Abbott's arguments, is that hardly any African slaves were actually captured by Europeans. Most were actually captured by other Africans who sold them to Europeans: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53444752In practice, slavery had been going on for centuries in Africa, but the arrival of the Europeans allowed them to sell the slaves in return for European goods, rather than just using their labour. So perhaps it should be Nigeria that is paying reparations.  |
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Post by EmCat on Apr 23, 2023 15:45:42 GMT
Meanwhile, Starmer (or at least his idiot media team) seem to think Glasgow's Finnieston Crane and Buchanan St are in England. Perhaps his map of GB ls largely blank in its northern realm with the message "Here be dragons". That'll be the ones that escaped St George, then  It appears that there is a lack of dragons in Glasgow, so maybe St George took a wander around after dispatching yet another dragon... commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:St_George_and_the_Dragon_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1179083.jpg |
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 23, 2023 15:48:51 GMT
Another stage in the regime's attempt to make the U.K. a pariah state. Brexitania twinned with Russia and Belarus. youtu.be/DPvponi0-2Q |
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neilj
Member
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Post by neilj on Apr 23, 2023 15:52:45 GMT
More blue on blue even her own side think Braverman is useless
Sunak grow a spine and sack her
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